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Post by linksocarina on Mar 27, 2017 21:18:22 GMT
These mean nothing since everything else is the same, boring gameplay as DAI. So, no rocking the boat. No rocking the boat in the story, in the writing, in the quest design, nothing. see me3 ending for when they don't play it safe. all the backlash they got form that it's no wonder they made ME: A vanilla as possible... and quite frankly a little vanilla every now and again doesn't hurt. I'll go a step further. Dragon Age 2 as a foundation and narrative is not playing it safe at all. The game had a lot of technical problems as we know as well, but a lot of folks criticized the story too because of how reactive Hawke was. I still maintain it's one of BioWare's best written games personally, but it is kind of jarring how it sticks out comparatively to the rest of their canon by not being world-ending consequences. Even Andromeda has a bit of a save the world feel towards the end, but oh boy is it set up for a lot down the line too...
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Post by Iakus on Mar 27, 2017 21:21:14 GMT
ME3's ending was as a result of time, resources, and the variety of stories getting out of control. Not because they were trying to go for something big, brave, and ambitious. me 3 was a result of everything they did before. if they had done the the rest of the trilogy in a safer way, fans wouldn't have gone nearly as crazy as they did. the ending wasn't big, brave and ambitious the rest of it was though. how many series to you know tried to do what did? They did an ending that fundamentally changed the entire galaxy, and burned the protagonist alive in the process. It was big, ambitious, and utterly asinine. If they had gone for a "safe" ending, one that wouldn't drive people crazy, it still would have been a major coup, because afaik, no RPG had ever carried over so many choices over three games like that before. But no, they showboated and went 'artistic" when they should have focused on keeping the story from crashing and burning. And in the process ruined the entire setting for future games. Thus, Andromeda.
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 27, 2017 21:23:26 GMT
You don't think that they're pushing the youthful exuberance and lightheartedness a bit hard?
I didn't think much about this myself, but there's been an awful lot of forum chatter about it.
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Post by Iakus on Mar 27, 2017 21:25:34 GMT
see me3 ending for when they don't play it safe. all the backlash they got form that it's no wonder they made ME: A vanilla as possible... and quite frankly a little vanilla every now and again doesn't hurt. I'll go a step further. Dragon Age 2 as a foundation and narrative is not playing it safe at all. The game had a lot of technical problems as we know as well, but a lot of folks criticized the story too because of how reactive Hawke was. I still maintain it's one of BioWare's best written games personally, but it is kind of jarring how it sticks out comparatively to the rest of their canon by not being world-ending consequences. Even Andromeda has a bit of a save the world feel towards the end, but oh boy is it set up for a lot down the line too... The problem with DA2 was the lack of reactivity to Hawke's choice. Given you stay in one place for years, you would think things would change more based on your decisions regarding Kirkwall. As it is, even Hawke's companions wear largely the same clothes for seven years. Even Varrics' interrogation doesn't change much. I'd recommend comparing Varric and Cassandra's talks to Henry Leland's interrogation of Mike Thorton in Alpha Protocol.
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Post by linksocarina on Mar 27, 2017 21:27:45 GMT
You don't think that they're pushing the youthful exuberance and lightheartedness a bit hard? I didn't think much about this myself, but there's been an awful lot of forum chatter about it. With some dialogue choices, a little bit, mainly because of everything in-game being a tonal shift to something more optimistic than the trilogy ever was. It again ties into the baggage of the trilogy though in that regard.
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Post by vanguardn7 on Mar 27, 2017 21:28:55 GMT
me 3 was a result of everything they did before. if they had done the the rest of the trilogy in a safer way, fans wouldn't have gone nearly as crazy as they did. the ending wasn't big, brave and ambitious the rest of it was though. how many series to you know tried to do what did? Couldn't name you a single one. Great point. personally, and this just my opinion feel free to disagree, that is why people hate the ending. no fake plot hole, not my choices don't matter, none of the stated reasons. hell have you played deus ex human revolution. the end was literally pick a button then get a cutscene, the same one but for all of two line, no matter what you choose. the hated ME 3 pre extended cut gave you more but for some reason is hated far more. the only reason I can come up with is that the ending doesn't matter. except for the fact it ended and no ending was ever going to be as good as the one fans had in their heads.
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Post by linksocarina on Mar 27, 2017 21:29:09 GMT
I'll go a step further. Dragon Age 2 as a foundation and narrative is not playing it safe at all. The game had a lot of technical problems as we know as well, but a lot of folks criticized the story too because of how reactive Hawke was. I still maintain it's one of BioWare's best written games personally, but it is kind of jarring how it sticks out comparatively to the rest of their canon by not being world-ending consequences. Even Andromeda has a bit of a save the world feel towards the end, but oh boy is it set up for a lot down the line too... The problem with DA2 was the lack of reactivity to Hawke's choice. Given you stay in one place for years, you would think things would change more based on your decisions regarding Kirkwall. As it is, even Hawke's companions wear largely the same clothes for seven years. Even Varrics' interrogation doesn't change much. I'd recommend comparing Varric and Cassandra's talks to Henry Leland's interrogation of Mike Thorton in Alpha Protocol. That's a lot of gameplay stuff creeping into the overall presentation... Strip that away...if you really look at Dragon Age 2 it was very a-typical to the BioWare formula from a plot and narrative sense. It sticks out and got nailed to the cross partially because of that, as were some of the things you just mentioned that did it no favors.
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 27, 2017 21:29:24 GMT
The premise needs to make sense first and foremost before you can make it appropriately gritty. Sending 100K people to a different galaxy in a bunch of unarmed space freezers should have ended with them getting slaughtered in their space freezers. The logical assumption to make would be that the Andromeda galaxy would be at the very least as dangerous as the MW. Arming the Arks and the Nexus or providing them with the ability to manufacture armed spaceships should have been an obvious requirement to someone as smart as Alec Ryder, or the others. They went in ME:A with theme over logic. They wanted their space hippies to look like pacifists. (disregarding that most of the gameplay involves shooting...) I don't see the case for this. There's almost no chance that the few ships you could build with that small a productive capacity (relative to any starfaring species) would make any difference. If you've blundered into a war and the aliens have anything like technological parity, you're done.
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Post by Iakus on Mar 27, 2017 21:30:52 GMT
You don't think that they're pushing the youthful exuberance and lightheartedness a bit hard? I didn't think much about this myself, but there's been an awful lot of forum chatter about it. Sure. But you think they didn't in ME2? The quippy one-liners following variations of "I thought you were dead!"? Shepard's action hero attitude? "Conrad, I haven't been shot in the head nearly enough times to think that's a good idea" Or ME1: The various shinies to chase on the map while tens of thousands of people are missing/trapped in stasis/in danger of starving as opposed to Shepard chasing shinies while Saren plots the death of humanity?
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Post by Iakus on Mar 27, 2017 21:34:12 GMT
The problem with DA2 was the lack of reactivity to Hawke's choice. Given you stay in one place for years, you would think things would change more based on your decisions regarding Kirkwall. As it is, even Hawke's companions wear largely the same clothes for seven years. Even Varrics' interrogation doesn't change much. I'd recommend comparing Varric and Cassandra's talks to Henry Leland's interrogation of Mike Thorton in Alpha Protocol. That's a lot of gameplay stuff creeping into the overall presentation... Strip that away...if you really look at Dragon Age 2 it was very a-typical to the BioWare formula from a plot and narrative sense. It sticks out and got nailed to the cross partially because of that, as were some of the things you just mentioned that did it no favors. Atypical of the formula, yes. But not as well implemented as it could have been. There's a difference between a bad idea and an idea that's implemented badly.
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Post by linksocarina on Mar 27, 2017 21:37:53 GMT
That's a lot of gameplay stuff creeping into the overall presentation... Strip that away...if you really look at Dragon Age 2 it was very a-typical to the BioWare formula from a plot and narrative sense. It sticks out and got nailed to the cross partially because of that, as were some of the things you just mentioned that did it no favors. Atypical of the formula, yes. But not as well implemented as it could have been. There's a difference between a bad idea and an idea that's implemented badly. I can agree to that, although I have a feeling I differ as to what was implemented badly in the end.
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Post by Iakus on Mar 27, 2017 21:40:08 GMT
Atypical of the formula, yes. But not as well implemented as it could have been. There's a difference between a bad idea and an idea that's implemented badly. I can agree to that, although I have a feeling I differ as to what was implemented badly in the end. For DA2 or ME3?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2017 21:41:57 GMT
In the trilogy, sure you can play through the game, only really losing 4-5 people, but you can also go through and lose damn near everyone. I had a female Shepard who in a matter of minutes watched both her previous lovers die. That was some gritty shit right there. I love replaying the trilogy and due to choices I make, the outcomes differ greatly. People focus too much on the endings, but fuck them, the actual story and the way it plays out due to choices, is crazy. I've played Mass Effect 2 so many times(all imports from Mass 1) and not one of them is the same, and I'm not just talking the characters look different I'm talking people left alive. The only problem is that nobody's dumb enough to get to those bad results without trying. Sort of the opposite of RP. ME2 would have been a better game if Reaper IFF had been mandatory the way the Collector Ship mission was. I believe your goal here is to force some character deaths during the SM, correct? The problem with that is that it would force players to either forego some LMs (some of the very best content the game offers, imho) or lose the crew. Developers don't usually put a lot of effort toward developing content if they're going to make choosing to play through that content bear some negative result.
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Post by linksocarina on Mar 27, 2017 21:42:35 GMT
I can agree to that, although I have a feeling I differ as to what was implemented badly in the end. For DA2 or ME3? Probably both in the end .
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Post by Iakus on Mar 27, 2017 21:47:22 GMT
Probably borth in the end . DA2 was a good idea implemented badly. A personal story should be more reactive to choice, even if it's just Varric's talk with Cassandra or home decoration. ME3 was a bad idea. It provided massive changes to the galaxy, but gave Shepard's fate almost no variation, when the exact opposite should have happened: At the end of such a long personal journey, Shepard's fate should have been open to a myriad of possibilities, while the galaxy's overall fate should have been constrained to the point where they could continue the franchise if there was demand for it. Rather than having to concoct a half-baked "Andromeda Initiative" to keep things going
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Mar 27, 2017 21:50:08 GMT
They responded to criticisms of Mass Effect 1 by removing the Mako which people complained was frustrating to drive, and UNCs which were boring to explore. They responded to the criticisms of ME2's memes about Garrus calibrating by making character non-interactible in 3 a lot of the time. They've kept digging lower when there is criticism.
Then the problem became that people hated them for the ME3 ending and people said it was too sad. BioWare thought this was the reason people didn't like the ending; that Shepard died and that the piano music made people feel bad.
So now, BioWare is giving players what they want, right? They didn't want to be sad and they didn't wanna feel hurt so now all the characters are just friends with each other. That's an improvement, right?
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Post by Iakus on Mar 27, 2017 21:53:23 GMT
They responded to criticisms of Mass Effect 1 by removing the Mako which people complained was frustrating to drive, and UNCs which were boring to explore. They responded to the criticisms of ME2's memes about Garrus calibrating by making character non-interactible in 3 a lot of the time. They've kept digging lower when there is criticism. Then the problem became that people hated them for the ME3 ending and people said it was too sad. BioWare thought this was the reason people didn't like the ending; that Shepard died and that the piano music made people feel bad. So now, BioWare is giving players what they want, right? They didn't want to be sad and they didn't wanna feel hurt so now all the characters are just friends with each other. That's an improvement, right? People didn't say ME3's ending was "too sad" Bioware said people thought that, and they needed "clarity and closure' For a company that claims to have a great rapport with their audience, they're not very good at listening. Probably why calls to be more like the Witcher games resulted in highly detailed *ss shots and Witcher-sense quests.
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Post by VanSinn on Mar 27, 2017 22:00:28 GMT
personally, and this just my opinion feel free to disagree, that is why people hate the ending. no fake plot hole, not my choices don't matter, none of the stated reasons. hell have you played deus ex human revolution. the end was literally pick a button then get a cutscene, the same one but for all of two line, no matter what you choose. the hated ME 3 pre extended cut gave you more but for some reason is hated far more. the only reason I can come up with is that the ending doesn't matter. except for the fact it ended and no ending was ever going to be as good as the one fans had in their heads. See, I have a problem with the ending of the trilogy for an entirely different reason than alot of people who didn't mind it seem to understand. It's been 5 years, and it's over and done with, and I'm not calling for a "do-over" or holding Bioware to account anymore. I DID have some trepidation when I found out they were working on a new ME game, but playing it has allayed many of my fears. My issue with the ME3 endings was the Star Child, aka the Catalyst. Well, that and the fact that ME2 was an ad hoc mess of a plot that did nothing to advance our understanding of the Reapers or work to find a way to beat them. The characters were awesome, and it was a great character driven game with a VERY weak overall main plot, and don't get me started on the Lazarus project. Because ME2 didn't give us anything to work with in regards to the overall threat of the series, the writers needed to shoehorn something into the first 15 minutes of the game that we needed to work towards. Thus, the deus ex machina macguffin of the Crucible, which needed a part the Protheans lacked, the Catalyst. Then we find out after the run to the beam that the Catalyst was an AI that was in control of the reapers...and was a part of the Citadel the whole time. This one single fact completely destroys the entire plot of ME1 and ME2 (even if ME2's plot didn't need much destroying in the first place.) The whole goal of Sovereign in ME1 was to unlock the main relay of the Citadel to allow the reapers to begin their cycle of destruction. The reason this was an issue in the first place was that Prothean scientists from Ilos managed to alter the keepers to prevent them from sending said signal. BUT WAIT! Now we find out there was an AI on the Citadel THE WHOLE TIME that could have sent said signal. Why was Sovereign needed? The AI on the Citadel could have kept track of the various races (since the Citadel was designed to be the seat of intergalactic power for the various cycles) and Star Kid could have opened the relay. If he was incapable of doing so for some reason, that'd be piss poor design on the Reapers part. Forget the mess that was Synthesis, Control and Destroy. Forget the whole "energy surge that races down the relay network" and forget any potential Dark Age of the Galaxy after said mess occurred. Star Kid by his very existence is a travesty on the highest order, and everything from him to the final end of the game was nothing more than pure rubbish. ME:A is so far living up to my expectations (and my hopes are slowly starting to be satisfied as well, as I get through the main plot) and I'm over the debacle of the Trilogy ending. I just wanted to explain a bit more on why I had an issue with the endings, and why I'm ok with the tone of ME:A being as it is.
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Post by vanguardn7 on Mar 27, 2017 22:24:19 GMT
personally, and this just my opinion feel free to disagree, that is why people hate the ending. no fake plot hole, not my choices don't matter, none of the stated reasons. hell have you played deus ex human revolution. the end was literally pick a button then get a cutscene, the same one but for all of two line, no matter what you choose. the hated ME 3 pre extended cut gave you more but for some reason is hated far more. the only reason I can come up with is that the ending doesn't matter. except for the fact it ended and no ending was ever going to be as good as the one fans had in their heads. See, I have a problem with the ending of the trilogy for an entirely different reason than alot of people who didn't mind it seem to understand. It's been 5 years, and it's over and done with, and I'm not calling for a "do-over" or holding Bioware to account anymore. I DID have some trepidation when I found out they were working on a new ME game, but playing it has allayed many of my fears. My issue with the ME3 endings was the Star Child, aka the Catalyst. Well, that and the fact that ME2 was an ad hoc mess of a plot that did nothing to advance our understanding of the Reapers or work to find a way to beat them. The characters were awesome, and it was a great character driven game with a VERY weak overall main plot, and don't get me started on the Lazarus project. Because ME2 didn't give us anything to work with in regards to the overall threat of the series, the writers needed to shoehorn something into the first 15 minutes of the game that we needed to work towards. Thus, the deus ex machina macguffin of the Crucible, which needed a part the Protheans lacked, the Catalyst. Then we find out after the run to the beam that the Catalyst was an AI that was in control of the reapers...and was a part of the Citadel the whole time. This one single fact completely destroys the entire plot of ME1 and ME2 (even if ME2's plot didn't need much destroying in the first place.) The whole goal of Sovereign in ME1 was to unlock the main relay of the Citadel to allow the reapers to begin their cycle of destruction. The reason this was an issue in the first place was that Prothean scientists from Ilos managed to alter the keepers to prevent them from sending said signal. BUT WAIT! Now we find out there was an AI on the Citadel THE WHOLE TIME that could have sent said signal. Why was Sovereign needed? The AI on the Citadel could have kept track of the various races (since the Citadel was designed to be the seat of intergalactic power for the various cycles) and Star Kid could have opened the relay. If he was incapable of doing so for some reason, that'd be piss poor design on the Reapers part. Forget the mess that was Synthesis, Control and Destroy. Forget the whole "energy surge that races down the relay network" and forget any potential Dark Age of the Galaxy after said mess occurred. Star Kid by his very existence is a travesty on the highest order, and everything from him to the final end of the game was nothing more than pure rubbish. ME:A is so far living up to my expectations (and my hopes are slowly starting to be satisfied as well, as I get through the main plot) and I'm over the debacle of the Trilogy ending. I just wanted to explain a bit more on why I had an issue with the endings, and why I'm ok with the tone of ME:A being as it is. funny enough thats the easiest problems to explain, one the reaper are it's design so any problem can't be blame on them, it be the leviathan aliens fault either for not stopping the damn thing when they could or making it too limited. keep in mind it was never meant to do what it did it's no wonder it did a poor job. you don't expect a voice recording software to stop viruses for you, do you? as far as why it did just just go hey my minions get in here. what happens if you keep a machine running continuously" it breaks down so it was probably in sleep mode more or less and being far more advanced it probably it's as easy as pressing a button to wake it up. oh and it's not an true AI like EDI or SAM it couldn't grow beyond it's programming like they did. it actually more a very advanced VI with even more advanced tech at it finger tips. that why it couldn't figure out another way till we rammed the Crucible into it... in fact I'm pretty sure it explained all this. you of course can still think it's moronic I can't stop you. but it does make a reasonable amount of sense.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
Origin: JamieCOTC
Posts: 198 Likes: 390
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by jamiecotc on Mar 27, 2017 22:33:58 GMT
I got a moment that didn't go my Ryder's way. She ended up shooting her love interest.
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linksocarina
N5
Always teacher, sometimes writer
Teaching Mode Activated
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
PSN: LinksOcarina
Posts: 3,186 Likes: 4,072
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by linksocarina on Mar 27, 2017 22:34:40 GMT
Probably borth in the end . DA2 was a good idea implemented badly. A personal story should be more reactive to choice, even if it's just Varric's talk with Cassandra or home decoration. ME3 was a bad idea. It provided massive changes to the galaxy, but gave Shepard's fate almost no variation, when the exact opposite should have happened: At the end of such a long personal journey, Shepard's fate should have been open to a myriad of possibilities, while the galaxy's overall fate should have been constrained to the point where they could continue the franchise if there was demand for it. Rather than having to concoct a half-baked "Andromeda Initiative" to keep things going Yep, a little bit of both in the end . I think the bad implementation was mostly due to 18 months of dev time for Dragon Age 2 vs story snags in the end, hence the reactive story making sense for the game. As for Mass Effect 3, I really don't want to drum up old debates again, suffice to say the game being mostly consequence vs choice makes sense considering the building of so many choices leading to the final moments. I had no problem with that aspect of the game in the end. No worries on that though.
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Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger
N6
At sunrise there is the sunset.
To find the secrets of the universe: Think in terms of energy, frequency & VIBRATION -Nikola Tesla
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Origin: NO. NEVER. AGAIN.
XBL Gamertag: No.
PSN: No
Posts: 5,220 Likes: 5,079
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To find the secrets of the universe: Think in terms of energy, frequency & VIBRATION -Nikola Tesla
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
NO. NEVER. AGAIN.
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Post by Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger on Mar 27, 2017 23:32:12 GMT
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Post by annerogers on Mar 28, 2017 0:56:34 GMT
Honestly all that stuff doesn't seem like anything to be lauded apart from the new engine. I mean are we really going to brag about how they wrote a story with new characters that wasn't like the old story with old characters? And Ryder is the Pathfinder. He has an AI stuck in his brain. He shoots electric crap from his fingers and does things other people can't do. He's practically McGuyver on the battlefield. Some people are jelly because of this. He is the chosen one. It just so happens that he wasn't supposed to be. Yes, we are - because I think doing a prequel to the original trilogies (discovering Mars, Prothean artifacts, the Mass Relays, First Contact) would have been the easier route for them to go. Brave decision for them to go forward, and start everything from essentially, scratch, rather than to latch onto a universe and galaxy that was already created and established. But the setting already IS established. How many Milky Way species are in the game compared to Andromeda species? How much of the plot is the first Mass Effect with a few words scribbled out and replaced? How is a Remnant vault different from a Prothean beacon again? Hell, the only brave step seems to be replacing 'tower of Hanoi' with 'sudoku'.
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Post by annerogers on Mar 28, 2017 0:58:11 GMT
I think ME3 pretty well demonstrated that Bioware doesn't do "gritty" well. I thought portions of Dragon Age were halfway decent grit (especially Origins).
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Post by annerogers on Mar 28, 2017 1:00:37 GMT
ME:A is rocking the boat. It's a huge tonal shift from earlier games in the series. It should have been at any rate. The invaders should have been given the option of acting like the Krogan or the Rachni, taking over Andromeda and caring not one whit about the indigenous species.
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