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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2017 8:06:59 GMT
After I talk to Drack about his Loyalty quest I get two choices.
Casual/Saracastic - 'Who's keeping count' (or something about keeping count)
Professional - 'Don't worry about it'
So my Ryder is mostly professional and logical but there are times when he decides to be sarcastic or emotional, usually in personal conversations. I usually avoid casual/sarcastic because sometimes they come out terribly wrong. And in this case my response to Drack saying thanks for agreeing to help him seems like I don't want to risk being a dick. So professional, right? Guess what professional response was....
"I'm not worried about it. You're good for it."
I cringed. Tacky all the way. I mean how can you possibly screw up 'Don't worry about it'????? It's so simple to get right. BUT they do this all the time. Take a phrase that is succinct and perfect and butcher it. No, I really did want my Ryder to say 'Don't worry about it.' I picked it specifically because it was perfect. And now I feel like my Ryder is kind of a dick. Thanks BW. You rock.
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Post by rahavan on Apr 9, 2017 9:41:52 GMT
I just wish we could go back to the DA:O/KoToR days where we were given a list and would say exactly that.
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Post by guynice on Apr 9, 2017 9:50:41 GMT
I just wish we could go back to the DA:O/KoToR days where we were given a list and would say exactly that. SO this. Voiced protagonist killed roleplaying in "RPGs". Fallout 4 is another example - from infinite RP potential in FNV to playing 1 character with 4 variations of "accept quest", absolutely 0 character. At least in ME OT we had paragon/renegade so 2 potential characters, and crucially, the chance to be a badass and an asshole at the same time.
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Post by rahavan on Apr 9, 2017 9:55:22 GMT
I just wish we could go back to the DA:O/KoToR days where we were given a list and would say exactly that. SO this. Voiced protagonist killed roleplaying in "RPGs". Fallout 4 is another example - from infinite RP potential in FNV to playing 1 character with 4 variations of "accept quest", absolutely 0 character. At least in ME OT we had paragon/renegade so 2 potential characters, and crucially, the chance to be a badass and an asshole at the same time. Actually I like voiced protagonists, I can live without them but would prefer not to. In games with a more narrative driven story it works very well but in games that are very sandbox, like skyrim and fallout, it doesn't work. The day I see a TES or another fallout game with a voiced protagonist will be a sad day indeed.
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Post by aglomeracja on Apr 9, 2017 11:11:36 GMT
I think we'd be better off without any dialogue choices in cases like that. Very often you can only choose to say the same thing in 4 ways which are almost indistinguishable from each other and NPC's reaction is exactly the same in all cases. It would be better to see some more complex auto-dialogue than 4 different ways of saying "Ok".
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2017 15:47:39 GMT
I want it to be precise, and for the 'tone' to also have a difference in delivery. Also, casual should not equate to sarcastic. That seems a little off to me. Here we have some nice variation but it is often not even really close to what the character says. They seem to go by meaning, kind of. But different words can change things a lot. The difference from sounding like you want and sounding like a punk or dick.
What I really don't get is why they have to change it at all. In this case, "Don't worry about it" was sufficient. But they had to add something to it because they seem to never want to deliver a line as it is written. I am not sure why that is. But it is going against what most people prefer. I think they think most people like a surprise, but I think when RPing, that is the one thing most people don't with regards to the words they choose for their characters. That this basic and most simple idea appears to be lost on them is sort of a head scratcher. They really need to make that wheel specifically representative and when it is not they need to put those nifty three dots (...) after it so you know more is coming and that the line they give you is not the whole thing your character will say. They also need to make sure it is clear which tone it is. Logical and professional are generally accurate. Emotional is usually empathizing/sympathizing in tone. But casual is not really casual. It's sarcastic more than a few times. So they probably should add in a true casual and a true sarcastic. Casual should be neither empathetic nor sarcastic. It should be probably be more general, possibly witty at times, not serious, but not something that could come off as rude. Then you can choose to be respond without being parked in some specific camp.
In my example above it should have been:
Casual - don't worry about it Sarcastic - don't worry about it, I know you are good for it. Professional - any one of: that's my job. That's what I am here for. You're a valued member of my team. I'm happy to help. Emotional - That's what friends are for. Logical - I'm want to be here for my team.
Yeah, it basically is 4 different ways of saying OK but as they say, it's not always what you say but how you say it. In this case it is what you say also. Some of them are a big difference. Like the difference between you coming off like a snide, arrogant, or snarky punk and a professional who wants things to be handled professionally with some seriousness that should be afforded the situation. You get to decide which you want and in some cases snide or snarky really does fit for who you are dealing with or what the situation is. Same with emotional. Sometimes that might be more appropriate, like often when you are forging bonds with people. Identifying with them, being empathetic/sympathetic often more suited in those situations. But if the words are too far off, different meanings can be construed. They need to avoid that. It can change the RP experience.
It's like they haven't even really figured out how to work their own system.
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Post by aglomeracja on Apr 9, 2017 16:50:54 GMT
They haven't fugured out how to work their own system because it's not a good system.
Even in this specific case you proposed: "Professional - any one of: that's my job. That's what I am here for. Logical - I'm want to be here for my team."
Now, what exactly is the difference between logical and professional?
Is "I want to be here for my team" not professional? Could it be emotional as well?
Can "that's my job" or "that's what I'm here for" only be professional? Or maybe it could be casual, logical and emotional as well?
It's all about delivery, same words can mean a whole lot of things depending on the context and how VA is expressing them. With this system they are in a really hard situation where they can either establish Ryders personality and let you choose from 4 very slightly different options so every single one would fit within this personality (very small role playing vaulue for us) or make all answers very different and risk that Ryder will show symptoms of some heavy personality disorder every time you will choose different tones during one conversation (eg. first one very professional, and then very emotional).
Anyway, I really think having 4 ways of saying the same thing is just not necessary and it causes more confusion than anything. I'd rather have 2 distinguishable answers which really have their consequences, and leave all "yes", "no", "good for you" etc. for auto dialogue.
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Post by kingmandu on Apr 9, 2017 17:02:45 GMT
I just wish we could go back to the DA:O/KoToR days where we were given a list and would say exactly that. SO this. Voiced protagonist killed roleplaying in "RPGs". Fallout 4 is another example - from infinite RP potential in FNV to playing 1 character with 4 variations of "accept quest", absolutely 0 character. At least in ME OT we had paragon/renegade so 2 potential characters, and crucially, the chance to be a badass and an asshole at the same time. Pillars of Eternity, Age of Decadence, Tyranny, Torment: Tides of Nurmagomedov, etc etc etc. Face it, multi-platform big budget games with dialogue trees need voice acting.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2017 17:14:57 GMT
They haven't fugured out how to work their own system because it's not a good system. Even in this specific case you proposed: "Professional - any one of: that's my job. That's what I am here for. Logical - I'm want to be here for my team." Now, what exactly is the difference between logical and professional? Is "I want to be here for my team" not professional? Could it be emotional as well? Can "that's my job" or "that's what I'm here for" only be professional? Or maybe it could be casual, logical and emotional as well? It's all about delivery, same words can mean a whole lot of things depending on the context and how VA is expressing them. With this system they are in a really hard situation where they can either establish Ryders personality and let you choose from 4 very slightly different options so every single one would fit within this personality (very small role playing vaulue for us) or make all answers very different and risk that Ryder will show symptoms of some heavy personality disorder every time you will choose different tones during one conversation (eg. first one very professional, and then very emotional). Anyway, I really think having 4 ways of saying the same thing is just not necessary and it causes more confusion than anything. I'd rather have 2 distinguishable answers which really have their consequences, and leave all "yes", "no", "good for you" etc. for auto dialogue. Sorry. I mean if they choose to use the top or the bottom ones only. They don't need all four most of the time and they don't use them. It's most always top only or bottom only. Professional is job related. It could be the others as well but in that situation as you say but you are doing it because it IS your job to be sure your team is focused and ready. It could also be casual or logical. My point was that they added this 'you're good for it' part after it. I suppose that is their version of professional, but it came off like I do you a favor, you do me one. That, in my world, is not professional. It really is a matter of tone as well as words as well as it being accurately what you say. "I want to be here for my team" can definitely be emotional or professional. But in a top only or bottom only it becomes either emotional or professional. The problem is they don't always come up with distinguishing tags for them and the words are changed from what they say. If I see a label 'That's my job' for professional then I know that will sound professional. If I see for emotional then I know it will sound more casual along the lines of I'm here for you. It's a matter of sticking with the words they write as well as sticking with certain kinds of delivery.
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Post by guynice on Apr 9, 2017 17:24:45 GMT
SO this. Voiced protagonist killed roleplaying in "RPGs". Fallout 4 is another example - from infinite RP potential in FNV to playing 1 character with 4 variations of "accept quest", absolutely 0 character. At least in ME OT we had paragon/renegade so 2 potential characters, and crucially, the chance to be a badass and an asshole at the same time. Pillars of Eternity, Age of Decadence, Tyranny, Torment: Tides of Nurmagomedov, etc etc etc. Face it, multi-platform big budget games with dialogue trees need voice acting. So the fact that there's a market for medium-budget cRPG's is proof that AAA RPGs need a voiced protagonist? Nice logic. Anyways, the main problem with ME:A dialogues isn't the voiced protagonist, it's the infantile and lazy writing.
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Post by ymirr on Apr 9, 2017 17:28:47 GMT
While I like Ryder, I think how his dialogue is written at times is too.... Diplomatic? He doesn't talk like a normal person would in various instances, it's a bit disappointing in terms of how I'd prefer my Ryder to be. At times it's very.. How to put it? "I'm here for you and all, and I care, I care. I help because this is important to your people, and I fucking love your people so much that I have to help." I wish at times it could just be simple "yes, I can help you with that." rather than "I understand this is important to your people, and I'd love to help" (I don't remember the lines, but that's the essence of what I'm trying to say...?)
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Post by 3rdpig on Apr 9, 2017 17:31:21 GMT
I just wish we could go back to the DA:O/KoToR days where we were given a list and would say exactly that. SO this. Voiced protagonist killed roleplaying in "RPGs". Fallout 4 is another example - from infinite RP potential in FNV to playing 1 character with 4 variations of "accept quest", absolutely 0 character. At least in ME OT we had paragon/renegade so 2 potential characters, and crucially, the chance to be a badass and an asshole at the same time. Some of the responses in KoToR were hilarious. One time when I was playing a snarky character and Bastila, once again, called me out in public to fear the dark side my character responded something like "Give me some warning, blink once for light side and twice for dark side". I just howled laughing at that one. I miss stuff like that and so far it's completely missing from ME:A. The previous ME games had it with the Renegade responses, but in order to get a good outcome you had to go all the way one side or the other and I didn't want to be snarky to my crew.
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Post by guynice on Apr 9, 2017 17:38:23 GMT
SO this. Voiced protagonist killed roleplaying in "RPGs". Fallout 4 is another example - from infinite RP potential in FNV to playing 1 character with 4 variations of "accept quest", absolutely 0 character. At least in ME OT we had paragon/renegade so 2 potential characters, and crucially, the chance to be a badass and an asshole at the same time. Some of the responses in KoToR were hilarious. One time when I was playing a snarky character and Bastila, once again, called me out in public to fear the dark side my character responded something like "Give me some warning, blink once for light side and twice for dark side". I just howled laughing at that one. I miss stuff like that and so far it's completely missing from ME:A. The previous ME games had it with the Renegade responses, but in order to get a good outcome you had to go all the way one side or the other and I didn't want to be snarky to my crew. At least in ME3 they moved to a "reputation" system where you didn't have to Paragon the whole game to persuade people in dialogue. That solved the issue of feeling forced down 1 path to me. But I agree, pre-voiced protagonist we had way better options in dialogue, and better feedback on our choices too.
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Post by kaind on Apr 9, 2017 17:44:56 GMT
SO this. Voiced protagonist killed roleplaying in "RPGs". Fallout 4 is another example - from infinite RP potential in FNV to playing 1 character with 4 variations of "accept quest", absolutely 0 character. At least in ME OT we had paragon/renegade so 2 potential characters, and crucially, the chance to be a badass and an asshole at the same time. Pillars of Eternity, Age of Decadence, Tyranny, Torment: Tides of Nurmagomedov, etc etc etc. Face it, multi-platform big budget games with dialogue trees need voice acting. No they don't. I've played all the games on the list except for Age of Decadence and they all offer better roleplay.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2017 17:55:54 GMT
Dialogue options here: "Don't worry about it." - Actual line I want to say - I wouldn't worry about it, since the difference between what was indicated and what was said seems pretty petty and not particularly immersion breaking.
I like that the dialogue said and the paraphrase are different because... this is a game and I like to be "surprised" now and then when I'm playing a game. I like occasionally be moved to laugh a little over what actually comes out of the PC's mouth when I select something expecting something different. If a person wants complete absolutely total control of the character development of a PC in a video game... a voiced, cinematic video game is simply not the place they should be looking for that. They should be playing RPG board games or writing their own novels.
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Post by colfoley on Apr 9, 2017 18:31:27 GMT
After I talk to Drack about his Loyalty quest I get two choices. Casual/Saracastic - 'Who's keeping count' (or something about keeping count) Professional - 'Don't worry about it' So my Ryder is mostly professional and logical but there are times when he decides to be sarcastic or emotional, usually in personal conversations. I usually avoid casual/sarcastic because sometimes they come out terribly wrong. And in this case my response to Drack saying thanks for agreeing to help him seems like I don't want to risk being a dick. So professional, right? Guess what professional response was.... "I'm not worried about it. You're good for it." I cringed. Tacky all the way. I mean how can you possibly screw up 'Don't worry about it'????? It's so simple to get right. BUT they do this all the time. Take a phrase that is succinct and perfect and butcher it. No, I really did want my Ryder to say 'Don't worry about it.' I picked it specifically because it was perfect. And now I feel like my Ryder is kind of a dick. Thanks BW. You rock. you wanted your character to say don't worry about it. They said don't worry about it in a slightly different way. You cringe?
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Post by cypherj on Apr 9, 2017 18:48:29 GMT
Yeah, the paraphrasing in the game was awful, you had no idea what Ryder was going to say.
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 9, 2017 20:25:35 GMT
Yeah, the paraphrasing in the game was awful, you I had no idea what Ryder was going to say. FTFY.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2017 12:41:49 GMT
In addition to my previous response, another thing to consider is that the paraphrasing allows the specific dialogue delivered to change depending on some of the decisions the player has made prior to that point in the game without Bioware having to also program a change to the textual dialogue wheel. These subtle "behind the scenes" changes happen in the Trilogy, often depending on how renegade or paragon Shepard is at that point. If you want a few different YouTube playthroughs, you'll soon start spotting places where the dialogue wheels appear the same and the players do select the same option, but Shepard actually delivers different lines of dialogue.
Sure, it's a convenience for them that, no doubt, saves on production costs and probably limits a number of potential bugs. If the visual dialogue wheel had to change to display every line possible at every point in the game regardless of the player's choices to that point, the odds of the wrong wheel displaying at the wrong point to in the wrong situation would go up astronomically.
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Post by Hawke on Apr 10, 2017 13:57:07 GMT
In addition to my previous response, another thing to consider is that the paraphrasing allows the specific dialogue delivered to change depending on some of the decisions the player has made prior to that point in the game without Bioware having to also program a change to the textual dialogue wheel. These subtle "behind the scenes" changes happen in the Trilogy, often depending on how renegade or paragon Shepard is at that point. If you want a few different YouTube playthroughs, you'll soon start spotting places where the dialogue wheels appear the same and the players do select the same option, but Shepard actually delivers different lines of dialogue. Sure, it's a convenience for them that, no doubt, saves on production costs and probably limits a number of potential bugs. If the visual dialogue wheel had to change to display every line possible at every point in the game regardless of the player's choices to that point, the odds of the wrong wheel displaying at the wrong point to in the wrong situation would go up astronomically. Torment: Tides of Numenera has enormous amount of lines depending on previous replies, choices, skills and Tides (the karma system). In most of cases (I haven't seen mistakes), it shows right options. ME:A is a triple-A title and might be able to achieve the same (without VA, though).
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Post by lastpawn on Apr 10, 2017 14:35:49 GMT
Here's a better example:
Choice: "You are someone." <= supportive, friendly, camaraderie What Ryder actually says: "You're someone to me." <= indicating romantic interest
NOT AT ALL THE SAME.
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Post by dreth on Apr 10, 2017 14:39:51 GMT
Hey look. More Nit-picking.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2017 17:03:15 GMT
Here's a better example: Choice: "You are someone." <= supportive, friendly, camaraderie What Ryder actually says: "You're someone to me." <= indicating romantic interest NOT AT ALL THE SAME. What was the icon indicator for it though? If the indicator was casual, then I wouldn't expect the romantic line. However, if the indicator was the heart one, I'd definitely expect a romantic line; particularly if Ryder had been somewhat flirty before that point. The line said may be one of those that changes if the player had been cold or mean to that NPC prior to that point or had, in some other way, made it clear that there was never going to be any romantic interest in that particular NPC. Honestly, I don't find it all that difficult to anticipate what is going to be said most of the time; and I really don't mind it when a role playing GAME surprises me every now and then because it's a GAME. When one plays a board game, part of the fun in it is in getting unlucky rolls of the dice, the fun in playing poker lies in how well people can bluff. If I want pin-point predictable control over my character's development, I obviously no longer want to play a game... I want to write a novel of my own (in which case, I would sit down in front of a blank sheet and start writing one).
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Apr 10, 2017 17:07:55 GMT
I just wish we could go back to the DA:O/KoToR days where we were given a list and would say exactly that. No, fuck that. ME1 introduced digital acting and a better flow of interactive conversation and I love that. I just think it's regressed in this franchise ever since ME3.
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Post by doch on Apr 10, 2017 17:17:24 GMT
Yeah, the paraphrasing in the game was awful, you had no idea what Ryder was going to say. Yep, all we could do is hope that what is said, actually matches what is written - or at least paraphrase the message of the written (or vice versa). The quality control over this, if there was any, was piss poor.
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