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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2016 14:59:51 GMT
At the end of Mass Effect, if the Council has died and Shepard has made certain decisions, Udina will propose to make the Council be composed only of humans. Where to even begin with how monumentally illogical a proposal this is especially from a diplomat whose characterization is suppose to be focused on avoiding "rocking the boat".Does Udina honestly think that the other races would in any way be okay with this? Does he honestly think the other Council races would be fine with this? Does he even consider just how horrible this would make humanity look? Does he realize that the other races would begin to suspect a different motive behind leaving the Council to die than pragmatism in dealing with Sovereign? I interpret the characterization of Udina not to be "focused on avoiding 'rocking the boat." but rather as an ambitious individual focused on "playing the political game" - quite prepared to rock the boat when he perceives a benefit to him personally while continually holding others back around him so they can't get the upper hand. He's the sort of politician who would always be looking for an opportunity to stage a coup. The "unfortunate loss of the Council" during the attack on Sovereign would be viewed by him as an opportunity to effect a coup. If there are only humans on the Council, it doesn't matter what the other races suspect... humans... and more specifically he, would have the power.
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Post by shechinah on Oct 4, 2016 15:04:25 GMT
- Why is there two different explanations of Liara giving back Shepard's dogtags in the broker dlc? Just wanted to expand on that In the broker dlc, LIara will say she recovered Shepard's dogtags if romanced. If she isn't romanced, she says she recovered them then says Hackett gave them to her. 1) Why the difference? 2) How do you recover the tags if they were given to you? 3) Why did Hackett give them to her? What guarantee did he have that Shepard would see her? 4) Why couldn't the tags be given to Ashley or Kaidan, if romanced? What's wrong with giving them to Anderson? Or better yet, Mrs.Shepard? 5) Why didn't LIara hand the dogtags to Shepard before walking off to her apartment on Illium? Yeah, I cannot imaging Spaceborn Shepard's family not wanting the dogtags since military service apparently ran in the family. Although even if Shepard's family did not then again, why Liara if she was not romanced?
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Post by shechinah on Oct 4, 2016 15:08:17 GMT
I interpret the characterization of Udina not to be "focused on avoiding 'rocking the boat." but rather as an ambitious individual focused on "playing the political game" - quite prepared to rock the boat when he perceives a benefit to him personally while continually holding others back around him so they can't get the upper hand. He's the sort of politician who would always be looking for an opportunity to stage a coup. The "unfortunate loss of the Council" during the attack on Sovereign would be viewed by him as an opportunity to effect a coup. If there are only humans on the Council, it doesn't matter what the other races suspect... humans... and more specifically he, would have the power.I understand the characterization: I just cannot understand how he'd expect humanity to get away with it especially since they'd be unable to keep that power especially if push came to shove, since humanity would be up against not only the asari, not only the salaran but also the turians and that's not counting the other races that would side with these Council races and lend their support. All of the odds are against this decision of his standing and proving able to be productive towards human advancement.
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Post by shechinah on Oct 4, 2016 15:19:50 GMT
This is on a meta-level, but the Stargazer scene. That kid beside him looks and sounds young, like maybe 7-9 years old. So good ol' grandpa decided to tell Shepard's story to a child. Every time I get to that scene all I can think of is, "Grandpa, tell more about Shepard's sex life. Tell me more about people getting shoved onto spikes and turning into zombies." I have a ton of respect for the BW devs, but that scene makes me laugh. Kid: "Grandpa, grandpa, I want to hear the part again where the colonists are being melted down by the Collectors while still alive!" Grandpa: "Of course, my sweet." Kid: "Oh, oh and the horrible screams they made too!"
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2016 15:23:55 GMT
I interpret the characterization of Udina not to be "focused on avoiding 'rocking the boat." but rather as an ambitious individual focused on "playing the political game" - quite prepared to rock the boat when he perceives a benefit to him personally while continually holding others back around him so they can't get the upper hand. He's the sort of politician who would always be looking for an opportunity to stage a coup. The "unfortunate loss of the Council" during the attack on Sovereign would be viewed by him as an opportunity to effect a coup. If there are only humans on the Council, it doesn't matter what the other races suspect... humans... and more specifically he, would have the power.I understand the characterization: I just cannot understand how he'd expect humanity to get away with it especially since they'd be unable to keep that power especially if push came to shove, since humanity would be up against not only the asari, not only the salaran but also the turians and that's not counting the other races that would side with these Council races and lend their support. All of the odds are against this decision of his standing and proving able to be productive towards human advancement. Why did Germany sink the Lusitania, a civilian ship with 120 odd American's on board? Did they not think that would upset the Americans and eventually be a factor in drawing them into the war? Power hungry is power hungry. When placing munitions on the Lusitania, did the British not think about the possibility that the ship would be attacked by their enemies? Were they counting on the presence of civilians from other nations being on board to protect the ship from being attacked by the Germans? Did they think they might get away with it?... and didn't they get away with it for a long, long time. Is "human advancement" or just "Udina advancement" his real motive? He's not trying to "prove he'd be productive" - he's just trying to seize power.
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Post by Iakus on Oct 4, 2016 19:21:33 GMT
This is on a meta-level, but the Stargazer scene. That kid beside him looks and sounds young, like maybe 7-9 years old. So good ol' grandpa decided to tell Shepard's story to a child. Every time I get to that scene all I can think of is, "Grandpa, tell more about Shepard's sex life. Tell me more about people getting shoved onto spikes and turning into zombies." I have a ton of respect for the BW devs, but that scene makes me laugh. Kid: "Grandpa, grandpa, I want to hear the part again where the colonists are being melted down by the Collectors while still alive!" Grandpa: "Of course, my sweet." Kid: "Oh, oh and the horrible screams they made too!"
Kid: Grandpa, tell me more about Jack's childhood Grandpa, tell me more about Maelon's experiments Grandpa, what's an "azure"? Grandpa, what's an ardat-yakshi? Grandpa, tell me more about the rachni on Peak 15 Grandpa, tell me about the traumatized commando the Shepard met.
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Post by polaris on Oct 4, 2016 21:04:04 GMT
I understand the characterization: I just cannot understand how he'd expect humanity to get away with it especially since they'd be unable to keep that power especially if push came to shove, since humanity would be up against not only the asari, not only the salaran but also the turians and that's not counting the other races that would side with these Council races and lend their support. All of the odds are against this decision of his standing and proving able to be productive towards human advancement. Why did Germany sink the Lusitania, a civilian ship with 120 odd American's on board? Did they not think that would upset the Americans and eventually be a factor in drawing them into the war? Power hungry is power hungry. When placing munitions on the Lusitania, did the British not think about the possibility that the ship would be attacked by their enemies? Were they counting on the presence of civilians from other nations being on board to protect the ship from being attacked by the Germans? Did they think they might get away with it?... and didn't they get away with it for a long, long time. Is "human advancement" or just "Udina advancement" his real motive? He's not trying to "prove he'd be productive" - he's just trying to seize power. Actually Germany thought that the Lusitania (a BRITISH flagged ship btw) was running guns to the UK and thus violating the US' territorial neutrality. The German Government even warned Americans not to go on that ship for this reason. It turns out the Germans were dead right about this btw.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2016 22:25:55 GMT
Why did Germany sink the Lusitania, a civilian ship with 120 odd American's on board? Did they not think that would upset the Americans and eventually be a factor in drawing them into the war? Power hungry is power hungry. When placing munitions on the Lusitania, did the British not think about the possibility that the ship would be attacked by their enemies? Were they counting on the presence of civilians from other nations being on board to protect the ship from being attacked by the Germans? Did they think they might get away with it?... and didn't they get away with it for a long, long time. Is "human advancement" or just "Udina advancement" his real motive? He's not trying to "prove he'd be productive" - he's just trying to seize power. Actually Germany thought that the Lusitania (a BRITISH flagged ship btw) was running guns to the UK and thus violating the US' territorial neutrality. The German Government even warned Americans not to go on that ship for this reason. It turns out the Germans were dead right about this btw. Exactly right... and I believe I implied as much in my post. So, the Germans were somewhat justified in sinking the vessel; but even so, should they have not anticipated that it would draw the US into the fray... increasing the odds against them? They could have perhaps seized it and proven that it had munitions on board. Now, there's another side here - How was the sinking of the Lusitania used by the British to focus blame on the Germans and help to draw the Americans into the war? The Brits knew they made that ship a target all along, but that didn't come out until more recently when they finally admitted that the wreck posed a hazard because of the munitions on board. Can' t it be said that the Brits played the American's just a little bit... but they did get away with it for a very long time. After it becomes known that it is the humans, not the Council, who stopped Sovereign; Udina is merely planning to ride that wave of popular support. The "truth" of why Shepard may have sacrificed the Council would be well hidden in all the " but he's the hero who saved us all from Sovereign" crap. Theoretically, he would focus the blame for the destruction on Sovereign. Is Shepard going to come out and tell people that he sacrificed the Council to put humans in power? I doubt it... even if that was his actual reason for doing so. If the humans take power AND do a credible job of it, the council races probably wouldn't complain too much. Of course, the problem is, as we learn in ME2, Udina somewhat abuses their power (or they're just not very effective if Anderson is councillor) and by ME3, the old council races have been restored. Udina is on the council; but by his own account, he holds very little actual power.
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Post by polaris on Oct 4, 2016 22:53:28 GMT
Actually Germany thought that the Lusitania (a BRITISH flagged ship btw) was running guns to the UK and thus violating the US' territorial neutrality. The German Government even warned Americans not to go on that ship for this reason. It turns out the Germans were dead right about this btw. Exactly right... and I believe I implied as much in my post. So, the Germans were somewhat justified in sinking the vessel; but even so, should they have not anticipated that it would draw the US into the fray... increasing the odds against them? They could have perhaps seized it and proven that it had munitions on board. Now, there's another side here - How was the sinking of the Lusitania used by the British to focus blame on the Germans and help to draw the Americans into the war? The Brits knew they made that ship a target all along, but that didn't come out until more recently when they finally admitted that the wreck posed a hazard because of the munitions on board. Can' t it be said that the Brits played the American's just a little bit... but they did get away with it for a very long time. After it becomes known that it is the humans, not the Council, who stopped Sovereign; Udina is merely planning to ride that wave of popular support. The "truth" of why Shepard may have sacrificed the Council would be well hidden all the " but he's the hero who saved us all from Sovereign" crap. Theoretically, he would focus the blame for the destruction on Sovereign. Is Shepard going to come out and tell people that he sacrificed the Council to put humans in power? I doubt it... even if that was his actual reason for doing so. If the humans take power AND do a credible job of it, the council races probably wouldn't complain too much. Of course, the problem is, as we learn in ME2, Udina somewhat abuses their power (or they're just not very effective if Anderson is councillor) and by ME3, the old council races have been restored. Udina is on the council; but by his own account, he holds very little actual power. I get the point you are trying to make, but I think the example you are using isn't the best. Actually Italy changing sides late in WWI was far more important than the US entrance into the war. In fact the US participation in WWI was extremely minor and was in no way decisive.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2016 23:25:44 GMT
Exactly right... and I believe I implied as much in my post. So, the Germans were somewhat justified in sinking the vessel; but even so, should they have not anticipated that it would draw the US into the fray... increasing the odds against them? They could have perhaps seized it and proven that it had munitions on board. Now, there's another side here - How was the sinking of the Lusitania used by the British to focus blame on the Germans and help to draw the Americans into the war? The Brits knew they made that ship a target all along, but that didn't come out until more recently when they finally admitted that the wreck posed a hazard because of the munitions on board. Can' t it be said that the Brits played the American's just a little bit... but they did get away with it for a very long time. After it becomes known that it is the humans, not the Council, who stopped Sovereign; Udina is merely planning to ride that wave of popular support. The "truth" of why Shepard may have sacrificed the Council would be well hidden all the " but he's the hero who saved us all from Sovereign" crap. Theoretically, he would focus the blame for the destruction on Sovereign. Is Shepard going to come out and tell people that he sacrificed the Council to put humans in power? I doubt it... even if that was his actual reason for doing so. If the humans take power AND do a credible job of it, the council races probably wouldn't complain too much. Of course, the problem is, as we learn in ME2, Udina somewhat abuses their power (or they're just not very effective if Anderson is councillor) and by ME3, the old council races have been restored. Udina is on the council; but by his own account, he holds very little actual power. I get the point you are trying to make, but I think the example you are using isn't the best. Actually Italy changing sides late in WWI was far more important than the US entrance into the war. In fact the US participation in WWI was extremely minor and was in no way decisive. Well, I'm just doing the best I can. I'm not sure that's the relevant part of the example though - Udina isn't feeling particularly threatened by what the old council races would think when he decides to seize power by installing an all human council. As a result, all thoughts of the consequences of not being particularly diplomatic about it have been pushed to the back of his mind. He's just seizing the moment.
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Post by themikefest on Oct 5, 2016 0:41:56 GMT
I don't blame Udina for having the thought of having an all-human council. I would to. It was the heat of moment. Humanity, or at least Shepard, my Shepard anyways, found the opportunity to get rid of the council and took it. Outstanding. Udina understood that. That's why he makes for the better councilor.
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Post by dmc1001 on Oct 7, 2016 4:26:41 GMT
I don't blame Udina for having the thought of having an all-human council. I would to. It was the heat of moment. Humanity, or at least Shepard, my Shepard anyways, found the opportunity to get rid of the council and took it. Outstanding. Udina understood that. That's why he makes for the better councilor. I don't see how it makes any sense. I'd have to assume that the asari were originally the only ones in charge since they found the Citadel. Then the salarians got in the mix because they also proved they had what it took to defend themselves and the entirety of Council space. Turians came next for the same reason. Lastly, humans. The Council isn't just four individuals. It's a single representative of the strongest races. If it was felt the other three races were proven too weak to hold power then it would just be Udina or Anderson up there alone.
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Post by dmc1001 on Oct 18, 2016 4:47:24 GMT
In ME3, it's established that rachni breed in toxic environments. Yet, in ME1, we see rachni "eggs" (or something like that) all over a listening post on Altahe. Whatever the planet's own environment might me, the outpost itself is not toxic. Why put the eggs there rather than underground wherever the rest of the rachni have been hanging out?
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Post by Iakus on Oct 19, 2016 14:52:48 GMT
In ME3, it's established that rachni breed in toxic environments. Yet, in ME1, we see rachni "eggs" (or something like that) all over a listening post on Altahe. Whatever the planet's own environment might me, the outpost itself is not toxic. Why put the eggs there rather than underground wherever the rest of the rachni have been hanging out? My assumption was that rachni were like krogan in that they could thrive anywhere. I was going to say "breed" but, well, genophage
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Post by themikefest on Oct 19, 2016 21:51:59 GMT
The unnecessary deaths in ME3
- If Jack is not alive in ME3, why does Ensign Pranley have to be killed? What's wrong with the squadmates providing cover fire?
- Mordin. Why does he have to die if curing the genophage? If the panel on the ground is able to detect a temperature malfunction, why can't it be fixed from that panel instead of having Mordin go up the shroud?
- Was it necessary for Thane to be killed by Kai Leng? After Leng is thrown to the ground, he gets up and runs away. Simple. No need for Thane to be stabbed and it avoids him playing chicken and Commander dumba** asking How bad is it?
- The same with Kirrahe. Why couldn't he fire at Leng while in cloak mode causing Leng to retreat?
- Was there a reason for Urdnot Dagg to die?
- When facing Ashley/Kaidan, the squadmates stand there doing a whole lot of nothing while Udina says Shepard is with Cerberus and shows evidence of the salarian councilor being shot. Had these so-called squadmates spoken up, its possible Ashley/Kaidan may of lowered their weapon. I know Shepard can talk down Ashley/Kaidan, but it would've been nice if a squadmate spoke up.
- Miranda, Kasumi, Grunt and Zaeed die no matter what if their loyalty mission isn't done in ME2. How pathetic. But what is messed up, is all the others don't die depending on what Shepard does. example. As soon as Shepard decides to rescue the ex-Cerberus scientists, Jacob will live, loyal or not, and if he's in ME3
- Did Legion have to shut itself down for the rest of the geth to get the upgrade?
- Anderson. I'm not a fan, but felt it was unnecessary for him to die. Had TIM had a pistol with him the whole time, the scene could play out the same way without having Anderson present.
I get the sacrifce thing, but the above characters didn't need to die. It was just overkill. We already knew sacrifice was happening all over the galaxy
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Post by dmc1001 on Oct 20, 2016 1:50:31 GMT
In ME3, it's established that rachni breed in toxic environments. Yet, in ME1, we see rachni "eggs" (or something like that) all over a listening post on Altahe. Whatever the planet's own environment might me, the outpost itself is not toxic. Why put the eggs there rather than underground wherever the rest of the rachni have been hanging out? My assumption was that rachni were like krogan in that they could thrive anywhere. I was going to say "breed" but, well, genophage It's unclear. It was made out to be very strange that they were breeding in a non-toxic environment.
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Post by dmc1001 on Oct 20, 2016 1:55:17 GMT
The unnecessary deaths in ME3 - Mordin. Why does he have to die if curing the genophage? If the panel on the ground is able to detect a temperature malfunction, why can't it be fixed from that panel instead of having Mordin go up the shroud? - Was there a reason for Urdnot Dagg to die? Possibly, all panels are not created equally. Could simply have been a "view only" panel while necessary to go inside to do anything. This would prevent any krogan from accidentally altering something from the outside panel. As for Urdnot Dagg, well, clearly his non-loyal ass can't live! In all reality I think that only a "super" krogan like Grunt could survive.
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Post by Phantom on Oct 20, 2016 18:03:35 GMT
The unnecessary deaths in ME3 - If Jack is not alive in ME3, why does Ensign Pranley have to be killed? What's wrong with the squadmates providing cover fire? - Mordin. Why does he have to die if curing the genophage? If the panel on the ground is able to detect a temperature malfunction, why can't it be fixed from that panel instead of having Mordin go up the shroud? - Was it necessary for Thane to be killed by Kai Leng? After Leng is thrown to the ground, he gets up and runs away. Simple. No need for Thane to be stabbed and it avoids him playing chicken and Commander dumba** asking How bad is it? - The same with Kirrahe. Why couldn't he fire at Leng while in cloak mode causing Leng to retreat? - Was there a reason for Urdnot Dagg to die? - When facing Ashley/Kaidan, the squadmates stand there doing a whole lot of nothing while Udina says Shepard is with Cerberus and shows evidence of the salarian councilor being shot. Had these so-called squadmates spoken up, its possible Ashley/Kaidan may of lowered their weapon. I know Shepard can talk down Ashley/Kaidan, but it would've been nice if a squadmate spoke up. - Miranda, Kasumi, Grunt and Zaeed die no matter what if their loyalty mission isn't done in ME2. How pathetic. But what is messed up, is all the others don't die depending on what Shepard does. example. As soon as Shepard decides to rescue the ex-Cerberus scientists, Jacob will live, loyal or not, and if he's in ME3 - Did Legion have to shut itself down for the rest of the geth to get the upgrade? - Anderson. I'm not a fan, but felt it was unnecessary for him to die. Had TIM had a pistol with him the whole time, the scene could play out the same way without having Anderson present. I get the sacrifce thing, but the above characters didn't need to die. It was just overkill. We already knew sacrifice was happening all over the galaxy there is drama, and there is stupid drama. Unnecessary deaths are stupid drama in context of the story.
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Iakus
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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iakus
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Iakus on Oct 20, 2016 20:52:09 GMT
The unnecessary deaths in ME3 - If Jack is not alive in ME3, why does Ensign Pranley have to be killed? What's wrong with the squadmates providing cover fire? - Mordin. Why does he have to die if curing the genophage? If the panel on the ground is able to detect a temperature malfunction, why can't it be fixed from that panel instead of having Mordin go up the shroud? - Was it necessary for Thane to be killed by Kai Leng? After Leng is thrown to the ground, he gets up and runs away. Simple. No need for Thane to be stabbed and it avoids him playing chicken and Commander dumba** asking How bad is it? - The same with Kirrahe. Why couldn't he fire at Leng while in cloak mode causing Leng to retreat? - Was there a reason for Urdnot Dagg to die? - When facing Ashley/Kaidan, the squadmates stand there doing a whole lot of nothing while Udina says Shepard is with Cerberus and shows evidence of the salarian councilor being shot. Had these so-called squadmates spoken up, its possible Ashley/Kaidan may of lowered their weapon. I know Shepard can talk down Ashley/Kaidan, but it would've been nice if a squadmate spoke up. - Miranda, Kasumi, Grunt and Zaeed die no matter what if their loyalty mission isn't done in ME2. How pathetic. But what is messed up, is all the others don't die depending on what Shepard does. example. As soon as Shepard decides to rescue the ex-Cerberus scientists, Jacob will live, loyal or not, and if he's in ME3 - Did Legion have to shut itself down for the rest of the geth to get the upgrade? - Anderson. I'm not a fan, but felt it was unnecessary for him to die. Had TIM had a pistol with him the whole time, the scene could play out the same way without having Anderson present. I get the sacrifce thing, but the above characters didn't need to die. It was just overkill. We already knew sacrifice was happening all over the galaxy -Feelz -Feelz -Feelz -Feelz -Feelz (plus, they're controversial characters, at least Ash is. So giveplayers a chance to kill them and indulge their inner sociopath!) -Bioware had no idea what to do with them -Yup. Because feelz -Not having Anderson die would not provide sufficient Feelz
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Post by themikefest on Oct 20, 2016 21:01:42 GMT
-Feelz -Feelz -Feelz -Feelz -Feelz (plus, they're controversial characters, at least Ash is. So giveplayers a chance to kill them and indulge their inner sociopath!) -Bioware had no idea what to do with them -Yup. Because feelz -Not having Anderson die would not provide sufficient Feelz I got all the feelz I needed seeing my planet, Earth, on fire.
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Iakus
N7
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 21,298 Likes: 50,662
inherit
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Dec 21, 2018 17:35:11 GMT
50,662
Iakus
21,298
August 2016
iakus
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Iakus on Oct 20, 2016 21:08:05 GMT
-Feelz -Feelz -Feelz -Feelz -Feelz (plus, they're controversial characters, at least Ash is. So giveplayers a chance to kill them and indulge their inner sociopath!) -Bioware had no idea what to do with them -Yup. Because feelz -Not having Anderson die would not provide sufficient Feelz I got all the feelz I needed seeing my planet, Earth, on fire. When you don't have a clue what you're doing, blind 'em with feelz!
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Post by themikefest on Oct 21, 2016 15:44:53 GMT
Samantha not having a scene on the Citadel in the base game. I wonder what reason Bioware has for that
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Post by straykat on Oct 21, 2016 18:24:06 GMT
Samantha not having a scene on the Citadel in the base game. I wonder what reason Bioware has for that Isn't the bathtub scene supposed to qualify? Not sure how it plays out though..other than manshep. And doesn't Steve just have the piloting scene?
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Post by themikefest on Oct 21, 2016 18:25:53 GMT
Samantha not having a scene on the Citadel in the base game. I wonder what reason Bioware has for that Isn't the bathtub scene supposed to qualify? Not sure how it plays out though..other than manshep. And doesn't Steve just have the piloting scene? Isn't the hot tub scene in a dlc? I did say base game or as others call it, vanilla
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Post by straykat on Oct 21, 2016 18:26:55 GMT
Isn't the bathtub scene supposed to qualify? Not sure how it plays out though..other than manshep. And doesn't Steve just have the piloting scene? Isn't the hot tub scene in a dlc? I did say base game or as others call it, vanilla Bah... I totally misread that and only saw "Citadel". I know what you mean now.
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