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Post by Vortex13 on Feb 8, 2017 19:47:22 GMT
Oh I'm not doubting it was present in ME 1 as well; it just that the first game had the benefit of the most 'alien' elements being present to distract me somewhat. I really just don't see all these "alien elements" other people seem to associate only with ME1. I find ME3 had more alien elements. For example, 1) In ME1, we faced the following enemies: Geth (which are robots and robots exist here on earth), Humans, Asari, Turians, Krogan, Rachni, husks and creepers (hard to tell the difference really), Thresher Maws, and a Thorian. In ME3, we faced all of the above (except the creepers and the Thorian), plus numerous reaperized versions of the other races... Banshees, Brutes, Cannibals, Ravagers, Swarmers, Adjutants (if you bought the DLC), and you met Leviathan (again if you bought the DLC), you could also face all the varieties of Collectors in ME3 (if you bought the Citadel DLC). Lots more aliens than in ME1. 2) Planets. The side mission planets were really just bare rocks of different, some were snow covered, some had grass, some were covered in volcanic ash... all of those environment exist here on earth... nothing really alien there. In ME3, we had a water world in the Leviathan DLC and We had Omega, carried over from ME2 but enhanced in the DLC such that we got a look into the underbelly of the station and it's mines. Even London was torn apart to such a degree that it had a surreal feel about it. The view out the monastery window on Lesuss was strikingly beautiful and very alien. Or Benning. The only difference was you weren't able to drive the mako over all those rocky mountains on Lesuss... but people also complain incessantly about drive the mako... and then they also complain incessantly about driving the hammerhead... and now they're complaining already about the nomad. Those are enemies though, not aliens. I mean sure you're fighting a Rachni, or fighting a Krogan, or Geth, or some form of husk, but that's all it is: fighting. That's just a gameplay mechanic, not an 'alien' as you could easily replace your opponent with a cardboard box, or a floating stack of hamburger meat and it would change nothing in terms of the gameplay. When I am referencing alien elements, I am speaking of the times when Shepard didn't have to run in guns blazing, when we as players were afforded the opportunity to interact and explore these things which weren't human that didn't involve us shooting it in the face. When viewing the content of the games in that light, then ME 1 indeed has the most to offer in this department: We get to talk to the Hanar and Elcor in a straight faced attempt to learn about them and their culture in ME 1, whereas in ME 2&3 about 90% of what little interaction we do get is just Blatso references or tongue-n-cheek advertisements for Elcor Hamlet. In the first game we get to talk to the Rachni Queen, and learn more about her species and see that they are more than what 2,000 year old accounts depict them as. In ME 3 we get a complete rehash of the scenario from Noveria with nothing new done with their character. This is made even more frustrating when the background lore and codex entries about Rachni immunity (or enough resistance to it that it may as well be) to Reaper indoctrination, and the fact that newly hatched Rachni are capable of working on the Crucible with no instruction needed is just tossed to the wayside and completely ignored. In ME 1 we get to talk to the Thorian; well it's chosen mouthpiece at any rate; and we get to learn a small amount of how this fungoid based species perceives other aliens and the universe in general. The only thing even close to this level of depiction would be the Leviathans in ME 3's DLC, but even then they are just the old personality that the Reapers had (Pre-Catalyst) in the first game slapped onto a fleshy Reaper skeleton; not much originality there. Now it's true the nature of the Geth was explored in ME 2, but the seeds for that elaboration were planted in the first title, and while the Geth were just mindless robots to kill in that game, there was at least some notion of an alien intellect driving their actions. Of course all of that nuance from the first and second ME is quickly chucked out the airlock come ME 3 to make room for the tried and true boring tale of Pinocchio-bots wanting to become "real boys". As for your second point, yeah the level designs were definitely better in subsequent titles, but I kind of enjoyed the bleakness of some of those uncharted worlds. Not that they were fun to run/drive around in mind you, but they hammered home the innate hostility of the universe, that things we find familiar; such as planets with hospitable atmospheres and conditions conducive to human life; were in fact a small, small part of a much, much larger whole. Essentially, ME 1's uncharted worlds had the underlying theme (to me) that humanity wasn't the center of the universe, whereas the later games moved more and more towards the rule of cool as a design philosophy.
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Post by I'm Not Dead Just Yet on Feb 10, 2017 12:26:29 GMT
I was chatting with Wrex in ME1 last night when he said this: I thought weapons didn't use limited ammo back then?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2017 12:39:20 GMT
I was chatting with Wrex in ME1 last night when he said this: I thought weapons didn't use limited ammo back then? ... ah, see, there it is - Canon, in the lore. Even in ME1 there were obviously some weapons that used limited ammo around. We just didn't use them in the Alliance.
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Post by dmc1001 on Feb 10, 2017 14:40:37 GMT
I was chatting with Wrex in ME1 last night when he said this: I thought weapons didn't use limited ammo back then? ... ah, see, there it is - Canon, in the lore. Even in ME1 there were obviously some weapons that used limited ammo around. We just didn't use them in the Alliance. Not necessarily true. We don't know when ammo went out of style. Isn't Wrex something like 1000+ years old? Even if the asari in question is Aria, she could also be quite old by human standards. This isn't lore breaking.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2017 15:20:11 GMT
... ah, see, there it is - Canon, in the lore. Even in ME1 there were obviously some weapons that used limited ammo around. We just didn't use them in the Alliance. Not necessarily true. We don't know when ammo went out of style. Isn't Wrex something like 1000+ years old? Even if the asari in question is Aria, she could also be quite old by human standards. This isn't lore breaking. No, but it means that the re-introduction of ammo use by the Alliance in ME2 isn't necessarily lore-breaking either... since this may equally indicate that some other species were still of a mind that ammo had some benefits over ammo-less overheating weapons. Both methods could exist in the universe throughout the entire Trilogy. Fast forward to ME:A where we will be able to apply "vintage heat sinks" to our crafted weapons or roll with ammo if we prefer that. IMO, it's lore-supporting.
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Post by dmc1001 on Feb 10, 2017 16:25:03 GMT
Not necessarily true. We don't know when ammo went out of style. Isn't Wrex something like 1000+ years old? Even if the asari in question is Aria, she could also be quite old by human standards. This isn't lore breaking. No, but it means that the re-introduction of ammo use by the Alliance in ME2 isn't necessarily lore-breaking either... since this may equally indicate that some other species were still of a mind that ammo had some benefits over ammo-less overheating weapons. Both methods could exist in the universe throughout the entire Trilogy. Fast forward to ME:A where we will be able to apply "vintage heat sinks" to our crafted weapons or roll with ammo if we prefer that. IMO, it's lore-supporting. Technically, ME2 doesn't have ammo. It just has something that acts like ammo in that you have to have it in order to fire your weapons. I'm fine with my weapon temporarily overheating before I can reuse it in MEA. To me, it makes the most sense as far as aliens dropping compatible stuff.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2017 16:37:07 GMT
No, but it means that the re-introduction of ammo use by the Alliance in ME2 isn't necessarily lore-breaking either... since this may equally indicate that some other species were still of a mind that ammo had some benefits over ammo-less overheating weapons. Both methods could exist in the universe throughout the entire Trilogy. Fast forward to ME:A where we will be able to apply "vintage heat sinks" to our crafted weapons or roll with ammo if we prefer that. IMO, it's lore-supporting. Technically, ME2 doesn't have ammo. It just has something that acts like ammo in that you have to have it in order to fire your weapons. I'm fine with my weapon temporarily overheating before I can reuse it in MEA. To me, it makes the most sense as far as aliens dropping compatible stuff. I'm glad in ME:A that we get the option to go either way. Personally, I don't like the "infinite shots, but pause because you overheat" system in any shooter game. I like being limited by ammo because it causes me to think more strategically about the battle overall; and I know right now, I won't be crafting the vintage heat sinks in ME:A.
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Post by shechinah on Feb 10, 2017 17:03:28 GMT
Technically, ME2 doesn't have ammo. It just has something that acts like ammo in that you have to have it in order to fire your weapons. I'm fine with my weapon temporarily overheating before I can reuse it in MEA. To me, it makes the most sense as far as aliens dropping compatible stuff. I'm glad in ME:A that we get the option to go either way. Personally, I don't like the "infinite shots, but pause because you overheat" system in any shooter game. I like being limited by ammo because it causes me to think more strategically about the battle overall; and I know right now, I won't be crafting the vintage heat sinks in ME:A. I'm glad as well for the option to choose. I liked the return of overheat weapons and I've used it in multiplayer for some of my characters just as I've used ammo weapons for some of them. It's nice to be able to pick which I prefer to use and which I think fits best with the character I am equipping.
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Post by I'm Not Dead Just Yet on Feb 10, 2017 20:09:34 GMT
... ah, see, there it is - Canon, in the lore. Even in ME1 there were obviously some weapons that used limited ammo around. We just didn't use them in the Alliance. Not necessarily true. We don't know when ammo went out of style. Isn't Wrex something like 1000+ years old? Even if the asari in question is Aria, she could also be quite old by human standards. This isn't lore breaking. Maybe, but as far as I know we never hear of ammo or thermal clips being used any time before ME2. Humans would have before becoming a part of the galactic community, but probably not aliens, I imagine they'd have been using the ME1 way of doing it for a long time.
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Post by dmc1001 on Feb 10, 2017 21:01:43 GMT
Not necessarily true. We don't know when ammo went out of style. Isn't Wrex something like 1000+ years old? Even if the asari in question is Aria, she could also be quite old by human standards. This isn't lore breaking. Maybe, but as far as I know we never hear of ammo or thermal clips being used any time before ME2. Humans would have before becoming a part of the galactic community, but probably not aliens, I imagine they'd have been using the ME1 way of doing it for a long time. Yes, but this doesn't contradict anything I said. I cited Wrex's potential age specifically because I believe it would have had to be a long time ago to be using ammo. It could be that both are in use "today" but we saw no evidence of it in the trilogy.
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Post by fraggle on Feb 11, 2017 12:04:04 GMT
I know that I must have already said this, and I'm sure someone tried to give a full explanation, but I still can't figure out the reason for the Terminator Reaper at the end on ME2. I really don't understand the purpose of it. If the final form of the Reaper is the squid-like shape, how can the Human Reaper fit into this design? Someone said that the Human Reaper must be the pilot of the starship, but how can that be? I often try to imagine it flying through space or landing on a planet alongside its cuttlefish brothers and sisters, but it's so silly. I can't remember if it was in the game or I heard it somewhere else, but supposedly the reapers create new versions of themselves in the likeness of the creatures they are harvesting, but that explanation is made redundant with the Leviathan dlc. I've learned to not take anything that happens in Mass Effect too seriously. Sometimes it's like the writers don't know what they're doing and make things up on the go because it seemed cool at the time even though it contradicts other things or doesn't make any sense. Mac Walters confirmed some time back that each of the big Reapers have a core designed to look like the harvested species, so the core in ME2 looks human. The outer shell would still look like Harby etc. In the ME artbook, there are concepts of a more embryo-like core, but it was deemed as not menacing enough, so we got Terminator instead. Source
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Post by I'm Not Dead Just Yet on Feb 11, 2017 12:24:21 GMT
I often try to imagine it flying through space or landing on a planet alongside its cuttlefish brothers and sisters, but it's so silly. I can't remember if it was in the game or I heard it somewhere else, but supposedly the reapers create new versions of themselves in the likeness of the creatures they are harvesting, but that explanation is made redundant with the Leviathan dlc. I've learned to not take anything that happens in Mass Effect too seriously. Sometimes it's like the writers don't know what they're doing and make things up on the go because it seemed cool at the time even though it contradicts other things or doesn't make any sense. Mac Walters confirmed some time back that each of the big Reapers have a core designed to look like the harvested species, so the core in ME2 looks human. The outer shell would still look like Harby etc. In the ME artbook, there are concepts of a more embryo-like core, but it was deemed as not menacing enough, so we got Terminator instead. SourceIt looks like MonicaSubZero was right then. I've never heard of that explanation until now. Interesting.
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Post by KrrKs on Feb 12, 2017 12:09:04 GMT
About the Ammo thing: Ammunition and thermal clips are not the same. And even according to the ME1 Codex, Weapons have limited ammunition. The metal block is just that large/ projectiles that small that the ammo inside a gun lasts for far more than a usual combat mission. . Thermal Clips are just the substitute for the overheating internal heat spreading and cooling mechanisms. These two really have nothing to do with each other. If equipped with enough thermal clips, you could eventually still run out of ammunition. What Wrex is talking about, is that he literally shot several thousands of bullets in these two days chasing Alina.
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Post by I'm Not Dead Just Yet on Feb 12, 2017 12:21:59 GMT
About the Ammo thing: Ammunition and thermal clips are not the same. And even according to the ME1 Codex, Weapons have limited ammunition. The metal block is just that large/ projectiles that small that the ammo inside a gun lasts for far more than a usual combat mission. . Thermal Clips are just the substitute for the overheating internal heat spreading and cooling mechanisms. These two really have nothing to do with each other. If equipped with enough thermal clips, you could eventually still run out of ammunition. What Wrex is talking about, is that he literally shot several thousands of bullets in these two days chasing Alina. Ah, that makes more sense. He must have had to be doing a lot of shooting to "shear" that block down to nothing. I always thought guns fired energy of some sort using mass effect fields. But if you run out of thermal clips, you still can't shoot either, while not technically "running out of ammo".
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Feb 12, 2017 14:03:18 GMT
ME2 contradicts its own timeline a few times. In the intro you're told that the council is downplaying the Reaper attack and have sent Shepard on cleanup duty to look for Geth. This is not a cover up because Pressly impatiently says that they haven't seen any geth on their current run before they get blown to bits by the Collectors. Then later, when you talk to Joker he handwaves the issue saying that Shepard was officially working on the Reaper thing but that the Council had downplayed the issue to the public but after Shepard's death they denied it completely. We just know that isn't true because we just saw Shepard's crew frustrated about not being able to find geth in the introduction.
During the Project Lazarus intro level then, Shepard is heard saying "Back when I was a spectre" and this line can play regardless of whether you asked about what has even happened since you "fainted" so Shepard shouldn't be in the know about how much time has passed. Then in the first conversation with TIM you can make Shepard say "I am still a spectre" if the council wasn't killed in ME1, once again contradicting its own timeline.
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Post by dmc1001 on Feb 12, 2017 14:24:24 GMT
Mac Walters confirmed some time back that each of the big Reapers have a core designed to look like the harvested species, so the core in ME2 looks human. The outer shell would still look like Harby etc. In the ME artbook, there are concepts of a more embryo-like core, but it was deemed as not menacing enough, so we got Terminator instead. SourceI wonder what the point of that is. So there's a Reaper core inside that looks like each harvested species. Did the Reapers intend one day to recreate the dead species after they had found a solution at work? Then, the Reaper core would be used as the model for their recreation in some fashion? Curious if there was any sort of logic behind the decision.
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Post by dmc1001 on Feb 12, 2017 14:31:26 GMT
ME2 contradicts its own timeline a few times. In the intro you're told that the council is downplaying the Reaper attack and have sent Shepard on cleanup duty to look for Geth. This is not a cover up because Pressly impatiently says that they haven't seen any geth on their current run before they get blown to bits by the Collectors. Then later, when you talk to Joker he handwaves the issue saying that Shepard was officially working on the Reaper thing but that the Council had downplayed the issue to the public but after Shepard's death they denied it completely. We just know that isn't true because we just saw Shepard's crew frustrated about not being able to find geth in the introduction. During the Project Lazarus intro level then, Shepard is heard saying "Back when I was a spectre" and this line can play regardless of whether you asked about what has even happened since you "fainted" so Shepard shouldn't be in the know about how much time has passed. Then in the first conversation with TIM you can make Shepard say "I am still a spectre" if the council wasn't killed in ME1, once again contradicting its own timeline. I do remember when going into the Archives in the Citadel DLC that I was surprised to see evidence that the Council believed Shepard because all prior evidence was that they didn't. However, I shouldn't be entirely surprised. I think the reason the Council would uphold Shepard's Spectre status even while working with Cerberus is because they knew the threat was out there but didn't want to cause the public to be afraid. The Council never liked Shepard anyway so sending him out to the Terminus Systems with the enemy and using the enemy's resources is like a win-win for them. I think the problem is less that the game is contradictory as that the Council is simply composed of idiots who place image over the well-being of the races they govern. Which, of course, is typical of politics. Can't comment on the other stuff since I don't recall either line. I always go to the Citadel and get reinstated. And since I always put Anderson in charge it doesn't matter which Council is there.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2017 14:38:07 GMT
Mac Walters confirmed some time back that each of the big Reapers have a core designed to look like the harvested species, so the core in ME2 looks human. The outer shell would still look like Harby etc. In the ME artbook, there are concepts of a more embryo-like core, but it was deemed as not menacing enough, so we got Terminator instead. SourceI wonder what the point of that is. So there's a Reaper core inside that looks like each harvested species. Did the Reapers intend one day to recreate the dead species after they had found a solution at work? Then, the Reaper core would be used as the model for their recreation in some fashion? Curious if there was any sort of logic behind the decision. I think they just wanted to show us at the end of ME2 that each Reaper represented a specific species; that is, they weren't combining all the current cycle species into a single Reaper. It really does, however, create a disconnect with what Shepard asserts during his speech... that the threat is to every species... because, to that point in ME2, the Collectors have only been targeting human colonies, etc. IMO, ME2 needed some references to the colonies of other species also "disappearing" but with slightly different modus operandi (i.e. signs that it could be the Collectors, but only using a different technology or version of the seeker swarm. They almost seemed to start out with an idea (because the plague on Omega targeting every race except humans and vorcha)... but then just mysteriously abandoned the whole premise. The whole seeker swarm thing is even more confusing at the end because the player can arrange to have them carry off their alien squad mates (if they use a human squad mate who can't hold up the barrier). I find it really odd that it isn't the human holding up the barrier who gets carried away since the premise on everything before that is that the seeker swarms can only detect humans.
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Post by mrfixit on Feb 12, 2017 15:00:11 GMT
I don't think that the seeker swarms can only detect humans. It's more likely they were only "programmed" that way for the harvesting of human colonies. No reason to think they can't be reprogrammed to detect and sting other species. In fact, maybe they could do that all along and the only reason they spared that jittery Quarian on Freedom's Progress is because of his exosuit.
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Post by dmc1001 on Feb 12, 2017 15:22:27 GMT
I don't think that the seeker swarms can only detect humans. It's more likely they were only "programmed" that way for the harvesting of human colonies. No reason to think they can't be reprogrammed to detect and sting other species. In fact, maybe they could do that all along and the only reason they spared that jittery Quarian on Freedom's Progress is because of his exosuit. I thought that someone in the game, maybe Mordin, theorized that the seeker swarms were programmed to go after humans only. After all, accidentally harvesting turians and salarians doesn't is just a waste of time when you're trying to create a human reaper.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2017 15:39:41 GMT
I don't think that the seeker swarms can only detect humans. It's more likely they were only "programmed" that way for the harvesting of human colonies. No reason to think they can't be reprogrammed to detect and sting other species. In fact, maybe they could do that all along and the only reason they spared that jittery Quarian on Freedom's Progress is because of his exosuit. Miranda's theory on Freedom's Progress is clearly that the swarms "can only detect humans." By Horizon, Bioware has already started forgetting that since Mordin (if taken) will say that he's curious to know if "we" survive (i.e. he includes himself as being threatened. Still, the game doesn't ever say that the seeker swarms can be reprogrammed like you say (although I agree that it would make sense). The entire game never implies that anyone other than a human has been stung by seeker swarms and there is never anything implied about seeker swarms carrying anyone off. On Horizon, the victims are merely frozen in place and it's up to the Collectors to, well, collect them. Yet, suddenly, in the very endgame without any lead up, there you have seeker swarms carrying off and totally devouring the likes of Grunt or Tali or Mordin if Jacob or Miranda or an un-upgraded Jack are used to hold up the barrier. Why Shepard would even be concerned at that point about putting up a barrier around alien squad mates is also unexplained... since any of his prior experiences would suggest that any of those alien squad mates just aren't at risk at all. The logical choice given what he/she "knew" to that point in the game about seeker swarms, is for him/her to take all the humans down the passage that is seeker swarm free and merely send an all alien squad down the seeker filled passage. (See ME3 isn't the only ME game that suffers from a "surprise we're changing our mind" type ending.)
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Post by mrfixit on Feb 12, 2017 15:49:21 GMT
I don't think that the seeker swarms can only detect humans. It's more likely they were only "programmed" that way for the harvesting of human colonies. No reason to think they can't be reprogrammed to detect and sting other species. In fact, maybe they could do that all along and the only reason they spared that jittery Quarian on Freedom's Progress is because of his exosuit. I thought that someone in the game, maybe Mordin, theorized that the seeker swarms were programmed to go after humans only. After all, accidentally harvesting turians and salarians doesn't is just a waste of time when you're trying to create a human reaper. I don't think it's been confirmed one way or another. Anyway, it would make sense for seekers to immobilize anyone they come across for the very simple reason of not leaving witnesses behind and not allowing possible aliens present in human colonies of offering resistance and/or disrupting Collector plans. It's very easy for Collectors to simply collect humans only and shoot the rest in the head or something. Much better than to risk someone getting out. Miranda does speculate that seekers may only sense humans, but she (or maybe Jacob) also says that it could be that the Quarian's exosuit may have been interfering with life signs.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2017 15:59:10 GMT
I thought that someone in the game, maybe Mordin, theorized that the seeker swarms were programmed to go after humans only. After all, accidentally harvesting turians and salarians doesn't is just a waste of time when you're trying to create a human reaper. I don't think it's been confirmed one way or another. Anyway, it would make sense for seekers to immobilize anyone they come across for the very simple reason of not leaving witnesses behind and not allowing possible aliens present in human colonies of offering resistance and/or disrupting Collector plans. It's very easy for Collectors to simply collect humans only and shoot the rest in the head or something. Much better than to risk someone getting out. Miranda does speculate that seekers may only sense humans, but she (or maybe Jacob) also says that it could be that the Quarian's exosuit may have been interfering with life signs. However, if you take Tali and Kasumi (a human without a suit) on the Long Walk with, say, Miranda holding up the barrier... it is Tali, not Kasumi, who gets carried off. ETA: Ditto if you take Tali and Zaeed. Tali is also the one taken if you pair her with Morinth (and Morinth is not the one holding up the barrier); however, if you take Tali and Samara, Samara will be the one taken. This last one really makes no sense at all given that Morinth is disguised as Samara.
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Post by mrfixit on Feb 12, 2017 16:03:42 GMT
I don't think it's been confirmed one way or another. Anyway, it would make sense for seekers to immobilize anyone they come across for the very simple reason of not leaving witnesses behind and not allowing possible aliens present in human colonies of offering resistance and/or disrupting Collector plans. It's very easy for Collectors to simply collect humans only and shoot the rest in the head or something. Much better than to risk someone getting out. Miranda does speculate that seekers may only sense humans, but she (or maybe Jacob) also says that it could be that the Quarian's exosuit may have been interfering with life signs. However, if you take Tali and Kasumi (a human without a suit) on the Long Walk with, say, Miranda holding up the barrier... it is Tali, not Kasumi, who gets carried off. Easy to explain that one. Tali was right there with the team. Kinda hard to miss her. The Quarian on Freedom's Progress locked himself up somewhere far out of sight and waited it out.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2017 16:06:15 GMT
However, if you take Tali and Kasumi (a human without a suit) on the Long Walk with, say, Miranda holding up the barrier... it is Tali, not Kasumi, who gets carried off. Easy to explain that one. Tali was right there with team. Kinda hard to miss her. The Quarian on Freedom's Progress locked himself up somewhere far out of sight and waited it out. See the addendum... Bioware clearly broke with their own logic to set up the Long Walk scenario. People complain every day about how they couldn't see the Catalyst coming... well, there is no way to foresee the Long Walk scenario given the information about seeker swarms previously presented in the game.
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