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Post by fraggle on Jul 12, 2017 7:54:55 GMT
All Sovereign had to do was fly to the Citadel, dock somewhere, and pretend to be dormant. Or the Reapers could skip the Citadel nonsense entirely and just fly in from dark space en masse and lay waste to everything. No vanguard, no advanced warning. What about the Citadel's external defenses? That was one of the reasons Saren had to go through the Conduit, no? To disable these defenses so Sovereign can swoop in. I guess they still wanted to make their surprise attack on the Citadel work, so that's why Sovereign tried to do it that way.
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Post by Treacherous J Slither on Jul 12, 2017 8:51:26 GMT
All Sovereign had to do was fly to the Citadel, dock somewhere, and pretend to be dormant. Or the Reapers could skip the Citadel nonsense entirely and just fly in from dark space en masse and lay waste to everything. No vanguard, no advanced warning. What about the Citadel's external defenses? That was one of the reasons Saren had to go through the Conduit, no? To disable these defenses so Sovereign can swoop in. I guess they still wanted to make their surprise attack on the Citadel work, so that's why Sovereign tried to do it that way. He wouldn't fly in guns blazing. He'd simply fly in like any other ship. Peacefully. Nothing would arouse suspicion other than his unique appearance. If there is some equivalent of an air traffic control tower that he must communicate with he can do so easily or simply hangout outside the Citadel and curious parties will investigate him and become enthralled.
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Post by Treacherous J Slither on Jul 12, 2017 8:54:41 GMT
Why didn't the Reapers hide beyond the Omega 4 relay like the Collectors?
Or some planet(s) in some distant star system.
No need to retreat all the way out to dark space. Such a trek is pointless and silly.
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Post by Phantom on Jul 12, 2017 15:26:33 GMT
Why didn't the Reapers hide beyond the Omega 4 relay like the Collectors? Or some planet(s) in some distant star system. No need to retreat all the way out to dark space. Such a trek is pointless and silly. Well Maybe due to the nature of Dark Space and Reaper Technology, They can fully recharge their systems. Also Dark Space is a good place to hide from ambushes from weaker species. They know they are not invincible but just hard to kill. So Hiding in a star system easily could be found by a species that is hostile to them.
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Post by Treacherous J Slither on Jul 12, 2017 15:50:01 GMT
Why didn't the Reapers hide beyond the Omega 4 relay like the Collectors? Or some planet(s) in some distant star system. No need to retreat all the way out to dark space. Such a trek is pointless and silly. Well Maybe due to the nature of Dark Space and Reaper Technology, They can fully recharge their systems. Also Dark Space is a good place to hide from ambushes from weaker species. They know they are not invincible but just hard to kill. So Hiding in a star system easily could be found by a species that is hostile to them. What would the hostility stem from? All they have to do is lie dormant and whatever organics come into contact with them will become slaves. They're just big strange looking ships. That's what everyone will think. If Sovereign never revealed himself, never uttered a word in ME1, how many players let alone ingame characters would have figured out that he's a Reaper?
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Post by Treacherous J Slither on Jul 12, 2017 15:52:40 GMT
What is dark space anyway? An area of space devoid of stars? Nothing but lightness vacuum? How can that be used to recharge?
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Post by AnDromedary on Jul 12, 2017 16:02:50 GMT
What is dark space anyway? An area of space devoid of stars? Nothing but lightness vacuum? How can that be used to recharge? Also, at least according to Vigil's speculations, the reapers recharge during their invasion and hibernate in between, not the other way round. I think the Omega 4 Relay thing is a good point. I'd say maybe the area (with black holes and everything) is too volatile to stay there for too long but then, if the collectors are the protheans, that would indicate that they could stay there for 50.000 years, so the reapers should be able to do the same thing. So yea, good point. For that matter, even if they had to stay in dark space, why not have a second secret relay as a backup to the Citadel? There should be nothing preventing them from having a back door. I have to say that after ME1, I was fully expecting the reapers to have a decent backup plan. After all, Vigil's tale that they are trapped in dark space is again just speculation. It would have made much more sense for the Citadel Realy to just be their preferred method of entry (as it has obvious advantages to come in right at the center of galactic power) but that if that failed for whatever reason, they'd just go for plan B and wouldn't take 3 years to fly in manually. All that said, I think asking these kinds of questions is a bit like the "Why didn't the eagles just fly Frodo to Mount Doom in the first place?" question. It's an issue that just didn't happen in the story and was never addressed. That doesn't mean that it invalidates the plot. You could always come up with answers for those kinds of "alternative plot" ideas and why they didn't happen. For the eagles, Tolkien might just say that probably the Ringwraiths or other evil creatures posed too much of an aerial defense screen around Mordor for them to have a good chance to get through. Equivalently, if you ask Drew and Mac our questions here, they might just come up with something that wasn't in the story so far (just like our deliberations here were not) and it would be perfectly legitimate for them to do so. So I like to refrain from alternative scenarios like that for the most part.
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Post by Phantom on Jul 12, 2017 16:18:58 GMT
it would be a good plot point if there was a massive space station that tend to Reapers every needs within Dark Space. Also there are naturally aggressive and paranoid species or members of said species that would gladly nuke a sleeping Reaper to be on the safe side due to it could used by a enemy force.
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dmc1001
N7
Biotic Booty
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: ferroboy
Prime Posts: 77
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Post by dmc1001 on Jul 12, 2017 16:28:31 GMT
I have to say that after ME1, I was fully expecting the reapers to have a decent backup plan. After all, Vigil's tale that they are trapped in dark space is again just speculation. It would have made much more sense for the Citadel Realy to just be their preferred method of entry (as it has obvious advantages to come in right at the center of galactic power) but that if that failed for whatever reason, they'd just go for plan B and wouldn't take 3 years to fly in manually. Wasn't the backup relay the Alpha Relay? It still seemed to take two years to get to it but that's like an eyeblink for the Reapers. I think the bigger problem was that the Reapers needed control of the Citadel because that was what was used to control the entire mass relay system. Admittedly, the Reapers probably win even if they never control all the relays - they're just too powerful - but this seemed to be the issue. I bigger problem I see around all of this speculation is the idea that everyone is instantly indoctrinated as soon as they are near a Reaper. Nothing supports this. Saren was indoctrinated because he was spending all of his time inside Sovereign. Even then, he had a lot of autonomy and in the end was potentially able to resist enough to kill himself. It just shows that even indoctrination isn't necessarily an all or nothing proposition. People can resist it.
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Post by AnDromedary on Jul 12, 2017 16:33:00 GMT
I have to say that after ME1, I was fully expecting the reapers to have a decent backup plan. After all, Vigil's tale that they are trapped in dark space is again just speculation. It would have made much more sense for the Citadel Realy to just be their preferred method of entry (as it has obvious advantages to come in right at the center of galactic power) but that if that failed for whatever reason, they'd just go for plan B and wouldn't take 3 years to fly in manually. Wasn't the backup relay the Alpha Relay? It still seemed to take two years to get to it but that's like an eyeblink for the Reapers. I think the bigger problem was that the Reapers needed control of the Citadel because that was what was used to control the entire mass relay system. Admittedly, the Reapers probably win even if they never control all the relays - they're just too powerful - but this seemed to be the issue. I bigger problem I see around all of this speculation is the idea that everyone is instantly indoctrinated as soon as they are near a Reaper. Nothing supports this. Saren was indoctrinated because he was spending all of his time inside Sovereign. Even then, he had a lot of autonomy and in the end was potentially able to resist enough to kill himself. It just shows that even indoctrination isn't necessarily an all or nothing proposition. People can resist it. The Alpha Relay was a backup to get to the Citadel but it was still in the Milky Way (though at its edge). I was talking about a backup relay in dark space to get them into the MW quickly. While two years may not seem long for the reapers, it was a big deal in this case. If they had shown up in force just a few days after the Battle of the Citadel, we'd have been done. I think the instant-indoctrination doesn't happen but I thought that was covered already on the last page.
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Post by themikefest on Jul 12, 2017 16:56:16 GMT
I would say there's another Citadel like space station in darkspace. It most likely has a bunch of sub-stations orbiting around it housing many workers to maintain them. The reapers return from the harvest, attach themselves to these sub-stations via an umbilical cord so that whatever information they have is downloaded and resources to use to keep the station powered. During this time the workers give each reaper the once over. Change the tires, change the oil, get a new paint job and maybe even repair any dents or scratches the reapers may have suffered.
As far as them hiding in the galactic core? Because the omega 4 relay didn't exist until ME2 existed.
What about Sovereign flying to the Citadel and parking itself without attacking? Most likely the Citadel forces would be put on alert. Try to make contact. They most likely believe there could be other ships arriving and this one is waiting for them. The Citadel brings in reinforcements. After many attempts to communicate with the ship, they open fire. Sovereign would either return fire or realize it doesn't have the firepower to repel the Citadel fleets. So it retreats back to wherever it came from. Because of that, Citadel forces will have a larger presence while they figure out what that ship was and who was flying it. And try to find out if there's more like it in the galaxy.
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dmc1001
N7
Biotic Booty
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: ferroboy
Prime Posts: 77
Posts: 9,942 Likes: 17,687
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Post by dmc1001 on Jul 12, 2017 21:01:25 GMT
I'm now doing a new pt and in ME1. This Shepard seems to lean more toward Renegade. I know you have the option to hang up on the Council on a regular basis. I wonder how Shepard gets away with it. Why wouldn't they just fire him for insubordination? I imagine if he did that to Hackett he'd find himself in military prison.
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Post by Treacherous J Slither on Jul 13, 2017 15:52:02 GMT
I would say there's another Citadel like space station in darkspace. It most likely has a bunch of sub-stations orbiting around it housing many workers to maintain them. The reapers return from the harvest, attach themselves to these sub-stations via an umbilical cord so that whatever information they have is downloaded and resources to use to keep the station powered. During this time the workers give each reaper the once over. Change the tires, change the oil, get a new paint job and maybe even repair any dents or scratches the reapers may have suffered. As far as them hiding in the galactic core? Because the omega 4 relay didn't exist until ME2 existed. What about Sovereign flying to the Citadel and parking itself without attacking? Most likely the Citadel forces would be put on alert. Try to make contact. They most likely believe there could be other ships arriving and this one is waiting for them. The Citadel brings in reinforcements. After many attempts to communicate with the ship, they open fire. Sovereign would either return fire or realize it doesn't have the firepower to repel the Citadel fleets. So it retreats back to wherever it came from. Because of that, Citadel forces will have a larger presence while they figure out what that ship was and who was flying it. And try to find out if there's more like it in the galaxy. He could park outside the Citadel. In the system but far enough away so as to not get CSec riled up. People traveling by investigate and take the ship for themselves. They eventually become enthralled. Sovereigns will be done. He could hang out just about anywhere and people will try to capitalize on a seemingly abandoned capital ship. Indoctrination makes it too easy. It doesn't have to be fast either. What's 10 or more years to a Reaper?
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Post by AnDromedary on Jul 13, 2017 16:18:57 GMT
I'm now doing a new pt and in ME1. This Shepard seems to lean more toward Renegade. I know you have the option to hang up on the Council on a regular basis. I wonder how Shepard gets away with it. Why wouldn't they just fire him for insubordination? I imagine if he did that to Hackett he'd find himself in military prison. I never hang up on the council, even with my most renegade Shepards (well, I think I did once for the lolz ). Like you, I just don't find it to be a realistic option. My renegade Shepards will abuse the council in other ways though: "Do you enjoy committing genocide, commander?" - "Depends on the species ... turian." Unfortunately, there is a dialogue with Joker in ME3, where he'll say "want me to get the council and hang up on them, just for old time's sake" even if you never did it.
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dmc1001
N7
Biotic Booty
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: ferroboy
Prime Posts: 77
Posts: 9,942 Likes: 17,687
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Post by dmc1001 on Jul 13, 2017 17:10:03 GMT
He could park outside the Citadel. In the system but far enough away so as to not get CSec riled up. People traveling by investigate and take the ship for themselves. They eventually become enthralled. Sovereigns will be done. He could hang out just about anywhere and people will try to capitalize on a seemingly abandoned capital ship. Indoctrination makes it too easy. It doesn't have to be fast either. What's 10 or more years to a Reaper? This only works if you ignore the overall goal of the Reapers, which we learn about from the Leviathan. If Sovereign parked somewhere, sure, it'll indoctrinate people over time. The goal, however, isn't indoctrination. The goal is the find a solution to the organic/synthetic problem. Simply sitting around and indoctrinating people would bring them no closer to the goal. They're actually testing all the races in the MW. Whatever you think of the ending, we know that a solution deemed satisfactory to the Catalyst/Intelligence could be arrived at depending on your choices throughout the game. However, had a solution not been found, the Reapers were more than willing to convert the "strongest" (conjecture on my part, since it's never stated) species of a cycle into a new Reaper. Turns out we can Destroy the Reapers, leading to a potential rise of a new war with synthetics down the road. If Control is chosen, we can enforce the peace through military race the same way the Reapers could have done all along (y'know, prevent extermination of organic species through force rather than kill them all to preserve them). In the end, I'm just saying the indoctrination has never been the true goal of the Reapers. It's just a tool they use to end a cycle, but even events going on at the end of the cycle could lead to the solution they seek. Hence, if they do it too quickly they screw up the experiment.
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Post by themikefest on Jul 13, 2017 17:17:35 GMT
He could park outside the Citadel. In the system but far enough away so as to not get CSec riled up. People traveling by investigate and take the ship for themselves. They eventually become enthralled. Sovereigns will be done. He could hang out just about anywhere and people will try to capitalize on a seemingly abandoned capital ship. Indoctrination makes it too easy. It doesn't have to be fast either. What's 10 or more years to a Reaper? I don't see that happening at all. The Citadel fleets will likely be informed or hear about an unknown ship in the area. They investigate. Since its a ship that has never before seen, most likely reinforcements will be sent in case the ship is waiting for others. After numerous tries to communicate with the alien ship, with no response, they would open fire.
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Post by Treacherous J Slither on Jul 14, 2017 9:44:16 GMT
He could park outside the Citadel. In the system but far enough away so as to not get CSec riled up. People traveling by investigate and take the ship for themselves. They eventually become enthralled. Sovereigns will be done. He could hang out just about anywhere and people will try to capitalize on a seemingly abandoned capital ship. Indoctrination makes it too easy. It doesn't have to be fast either. What's 10 or more years to a Reaper? I don't see that happening at all. The Citadel fleets will likely be informed or hear about an unknown ship in the area. They investigate. Since its a ship that has never before seen, most likely reinforcements will be sent in case the ship is waiting for others. After numerous tries to communicate with the alien ship, with no response, they would open fire. I doubt that. The ship is just sitting there. Posing no threat. No signs of life on board. What would be the point of destroying it? What threat does an abandoned ship pose?
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Post by Treacherous J Slither on Jul 14, 2017 10:04:07 GMT
He could park outside the Citadel. In the system but far enough away so as to not get CSec riled up. People traveling by investigate and take the ship for themselves. They eventually become enthralled. Sovereigns will be done. He could hang out just about anywhere and people will try to capitalize on a seemingly abandoned capital ship. Indoctrination makes it too easy. It doesn't have to be fast either. What's 10 or more years to a Reaper? This only works if you ignore the overall goal of the Reapers, which we learn about from the Leviathan. If Sovereign parked somewhere, sure, it'll indoctrinate people over time. The goal, however, isn't indoctrination. The goal is the find a solution to the organic/synthetic problem. Simply sitting around and indoctrinating people would bring them no closer to the goal. They're actually testing all the races in the MW. Whatever you think of the ending, we know that a solution deemed satisfactory to the Catalyst/Intelligence could be arrived at depending on your choices throughout the game. However, had a solution not been found, the Reapers were more than willing to convert the "strongest" (conjecture on my part, since it's never stated) species of a cycle into a new Reaper. Turns out we can Destroy the Reapers, leading to a potential rise of a new war with synthetics down the road. If Control is chosen, we can enforce the peace through military race the same way the Reapers could have done all along (y'know, prevent extermination of organic species through force rather than kill them all to preserve them). In the end, I'm just saying the indoctrination has never been the true goal of the Reapers. It's just a tool they use to end a cycle, but even events going on at the end of the cycle could lead to the solution they seek. Hence, if they do it too quickly they screw up the experiment. It's a tool used to end the cycle. Exactly what Sovereign is trying to do. This cycle nonsense is their solution to the organic/synthetic conflict. Instead of him going through all the nonsense that he did in ME1, he could just simply indoctrinate a lot of people who will pave the way for him to activate the Citadel relay thingy. As i said before though, having a vanguard open the way is entirely unnecessary for the Reapers in the first place. They could simply come in from dark space and take any relay to the Citadel. No one knew about them. No one would have seen them coming. No one would be prepared. There may be talk of a large fleet of strange ships but until hostile action is taken, no one would attempt to stop them or prevent them from reaching the Citadel. So without Sovereign effectively spilling the beans, they could simply waltz right in and do as they please.
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Post by themikefest on Jul 14, 2017 11:12:47 GMT
I doubt that. The ship is just sitting there. Posing no threat. No signs of life on board. What would be the point of destroying it? What threat does an abandoned ship pose? If its abandoned, how did it get there? Who put it there? What happened to the crew? There was nothing in that area the other day. How do I know its not there waiting for other ships to start an attack? Its a ship that has never been seen before. There has been no reports from anyone that have seen a ship like that. When I fire at it and its destroyed, maybe it will have answers explaining why it was there and who the crew was?
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Post by Treacherous J Slither on Jul 14, 2017 14:36:46 GMT
I doubt that. The ship is just sitting there. Posing no threat. No signs of life on board. What would be the point of destroying it? What threat does an abandoned ship pose? If its abandoned, how did it get there? Who put it there? What happened to the crew? There was nothing in that area the other day. How do I know its not there waiting for other ships to start an attack? Its a ship that has never been seen before. There has been no reports from anyone that have seen a ship like that. When I fire at it and its destroyed, maybe it will have answers explaining why it was there and who the crew was? Why not board the ship? That way you can check its logs or flight records or whatever. You can see what cargo it holds if any. You can get its specifications and whatnot. You can get more information from an intact ship than bits and pieces of a wrecked one.
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Post by themikefest on Jul 14, 2017 15:08:11 GMT
Why not board the ship? That way you can check its logs or flight records or whatever. You can see what cargo it holds if any. You can get its specifications and whatnot. I know you're wanting them to so it would give Sovereign the opportunity to indoctrinate anyone onboard. How long would it take to indoctrinate them? Even if that does happen, it wouldn't be long before someone figures out that some are acting different from what they normally do. They would tell no one to go near it and likely destroy the ship Or another way is to send drones into the ship instead of people. True. I would destroy the ship since its possible it could be sending out a signal to other ships of its location. If others do show up, at least there would be one less ship to deal with.
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Post by AnDromedary on Jul 14, 2017 15:45:28 GMT
In a way, what Treachurous suggests is exactly what Sovereign did, just not near the Citadel. This is exactly how it managed to indoctrinate Dr. Qian , just sitting in space, waiting for people to get curious. And again, yes, Sovi could potentially have gotten away with it near the Citadel, who knows, but he didn't go that route, probably because it would have been too risky (what if someone like mikefest happened to be in charge? ). IMO, it's somewhat superfluous to go through alternative plot lines, where we may just lack the information as to why they were not followed up on by the actors in universe. (as I described above with the eagle question).
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dmc1001
N7
Biotic Booty
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: ferroboy
Prime Posts: 77
Posts: 9,942 Likes: 17,687
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Post by dmc1001 on Jul 15, 2017 2:00:45 GMT
Reality is that what Sovereign did has ALWAYS worked. Why change what works? Also, cycles are not the solution. The Leviathan and the Catalyst both make it clear that the cycles are an experiment, not a solution. Hence, indoctrinating people too quickly ruins the experiment.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 304 Likes: 501
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Post by brfritos on Jul 15, 2017 11:41:01 GMT
I'm now doing a new pt and in ME1. This Shepard seems to lean more toward Renegade. I know you have the option to hang up on the Council on a regular basis. I wonder how Shepard gets away with it. Why wouldn't they just fire him for insubordination? I imagine if he did that to Hackett he'd find himself in military prison. I never hang up on the council, even with my most renegade Shepards (well, I think I did once for the lolz ). Like you, I just don't find it to be a realistic option. My renegade Shepards will abuse the council in other ways though: "Do you enjoy committing genocide, commander?" - "Depends on the species ... turian." Unfortunately, there is a dialogue with Joker in ME3, where he'll say "want me to get the council and hang up on them, just for old time's sake" even if you never did it.This line and Anderson talking about "the Moon" instead of "Luna" is really a immersion breaker. Or anyone refers to Atlantic, Discovery, Challenger and Columbia as "the reusable spacecraft of NASA"? It's 'the shuttle' or 'space shuttle' and let's get on with it. As for the Council... that's what you get for hiring criminals, so no complains there.
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themikefest
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themikefest
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Post by themikefest on Jul 17, 2017 18:48:29 GMT
The derelict reaper had the IFF. Why? Wasn't the Omega- 4 relay only for getting to the galatic core to reach the collector base? Why would that reaper have one? Unless the IFF is needed for them to use the Citadel relay to get to and from darkspace
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