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Post by themikefest on Mar 9, 2018 18:04:05 GMT
The platform that takes Shepard up to the catalyst
Why did the reapers have it there? When building the Citadel, were they able to foreshadow that a human would pass out at that very spot, a billion years later? Who/what activated the platform to bring Shepard up to the catalyst? When Shepard sees Anderson, he's leaning over the console. He must have walked over the platform to get to the console. When TIM shows up, Anderson turns around. He moves forward a bit stepping on the platform again. Even TIM walks over the platform. After TIM is dead, Shepard walks over the platform to open the arms. Its only after Shepard passes out, that the platform is activated? Was someone/something watching what had just happened? If ems is low enough, the catalyst will say, 'Why are you here?' Since the thing is asking that question, then who/what activated the platform?
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Origin: ferroboy
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Post by dmc1001 on Mar 9, 2018 18:25:29 GMT
The platform that takes Shepard up to the catalyst Why did the reapers have it there? When building the Citadel, were they able to foreshadow that a human would pass out at that very spot, a billion years later? Who/what activated the platform to bring Shepard up to the catalyst? When Shepard sees Anderson, he's leaning over the console. He must have walked over the platform to get to the console. When TIM shows up, Anderson turns around. He moves forward a bit stepping on the platform again. Even TIM walks over the platform. After TIM is dead, Shepard walks over the platform to open the arms. Its only after Shepard passes out, that the platform is activated? Was someone/something watching what had just happened? If ems is low enough, the catalyst will say, 'Why are you here?' Since the thing is asking that question, then who/what activated the platform? Conjecture. Maybe that was an aspect of the Crucible? I don't have any better thoughts on the subject. Of course, if it's part of the Crucible, which was allegedly the creation of countless alien races over many cycles, why was the Catalyst there? To me, this never added up. I honestly assume the Crucible was a creation of the Catalyst all along to trick some race that managed to survive into choosing Synthesis. Or, possibly, it's a creation of the Leviathan to wipe out synthetics and leave the galaxy in a weakened state for them to take over. The Catalyst then subverted it for its own purposes in order to survive.
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Post by themikefest on Mar 12, 2018 22:00:02 GMT
Conjecture. Maybe that was an aspect of the Crucible? I don't have any better thoughts on the subject. Of course, if it's part of the Crucible, which was allegedly the creation of countless alien races over many cycles, why was the Catalyst there? To me, this never added up. I honestly assume the Crucible was a creation of the Catalyst all along to trick some race that managed to survive into choosing Synthesis. Or, possibly, it's a creation of the Leviathan to wipe out synthetics and leave the galaxy in a weakened state for them to take over. The Catalyst then subverted it for its own purposes in order to survive. Conjecture? Yes it is. And you could be right that it was the catalyst that had the plans designed for the cycles to build the crucible. The one thing that bothers me about that is why indoctrinate anyone during the prothean cycle to sabotage the project? Another is if the thing was the creator of the plans, why include the blue and red since if favors the green? The thing does say, "You do not know them.....". Was it lying? But back to the platform. If its part of the crucible, that means whoever decided to use the crucible and Citadel together had to get people to add that platform to raise someone up to where the crucible docks. The catalyst had to have been aware of that if its part of the Cittadel. So the species had to know the inner workings of the Citadel to be able to do that. Another question is if that species knew about the workings of the Citadel, wouldn't they have found the reason why the keepers are on the Citadel? I mean if they knew that, they could have altered the signal long before the protheans did in the previous cycle. Also when the species decided to use the Citadel, did they design the plans to only destroy the reapers? If so, then how did the later civilizations know what to add to make the blue and green? More likely they added whatever without ever knowing that what was being added led to the green and blue.
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Post by kalreegar on Mar 12, 2018 22:55:11 GMT
Imo everything related to ME3 ending makes sense, at least on a general level.
THE CATALYST The catalyst is an advanced AI, and it was created in order to solve the “chaos problem” (synthetcs-organics conflict, technological singularity maybe? etc). The reapers are its current solution.
The catalyst controls the reapers (probably it's not the same "direct" control of Harb vs Collector's leader: the catalyst embodies the collective intelligence of the reapers, so even if the Catalyst can of course influence the reapers, every reaper mantains, within certain limits, a specific individuality, as Sovereing said).
The catalyst doens't direclty and fully control the Citadel. Not the arms and the mass-relay (the relevant parts) at least. Maybe it used to control it/them through the keepers (we know there is a strong connection between the keepers and the citadel/reapers), but we know that the prothean scientist from Ilos somehow broke this connction. We never see the catalyst directly controlling anything, even when it would have been useful for its purposes. The catalyst need Saren, the Sovereign, Cerberus, Tim and finally Shepard to perform “material” operations. The catalyst is very likely unable to control the Crucible, too. Referring to the possibile choices that the Crucible provides, it says "I can't make it happen". So we can be almost certain that it needs Shepard to use the crucible. So we can summarize the previous point in one general statement: the Catalyst is incapable of direct, relevant material actions, it can only influence/control the reapers.
THE CRUCIBLE The crucible is, according to the catalyst, little more than a rude power source (from the catalyst point of view, at least), but in combination with the citadel it is capable of realising a huge amount of energy. So, it's not an hacking device or something similar, just a powerful weapon of mass destruction. We don't know who designed it (very likely not the Leviathans, because the catalyst says, reffering to the crucible designers, "you wouldn't know them" -> and Shepard knows the Leviathans). We only know that its design evolved many times.
THE CRUCIBLE DOCKING This is the crucial moment. Once the crucible docked, Shepard is brought by the platform (which is probably part of the crucible) in front of the catalyst. The crucible is not working, it needs to be activated The 1 million dollars question is: why the catalyst doesn't shut of the crucible or, if it can't “personally” do that (we have said that he is probably incapable of direct, material action), why doesn't it wait/order to the reapers to destroy it and to continue the cycle? Why does the catalyst seem to strongly desire that the crubile is preserved and activated?
The answer to this question is resumable in one sentece: the variables have been altered.
More specifically:
1. Its solution (the reapers) won't work anymore. The Crucible has been proven possible and a real threat, that its mere existence as a tangible object - and not a dreamy idea - changes things completely because one day the Reapers will be defeated by it (and refusal ending proves it -> the stargazer says that "the reapers are no longer a threat"). Even if the crucible is not used, the reapers days are done, defeated by the next cycle or simply "fired" by the catalyst after completing the current harvest. They no longer have the strenght (they already had some relevant losses) to continue the cycle. The can complete this one, but not the next one.
2. The crucible changed the catalyst... created new possibilities. The catalyst original solution won't work anymore, but new solutions are now available. All of them are better than the reapers. - Synthesis: do I really need to explain why this is the perfect solution from the catalyst point of view? (N.B. for the catalyst this is the only true solution; the other options are both a makeshif at best, the lesser evil) - Control: the reapers can be "upgraded" with a new catalyst 2.0 (the sheparlyst) and, thanks to Shepard's memories, consciousness, readiness etc, they can become somehow more effective, adapter to their new task of “peace-keeping”. - Destroy: this cycle has proven itself worthy/ready, somehow special, and since crucible is a weapon that can destroy every single syntetic organism in the galaxy in few minutes, the organics of this “exceptional” cycle have proven that they can effectively deal with the synthetics threat (or, at least, better and/or longer than the reapers or other less special cycles). Another possibility is that if this cycle kills all the advanced synthetics, organics may gain the upperhand for a few decade, and be able ot explout this advantage.
This is why the catalyst helps shepard, gives him information, doesn't shut off the crucible and/or "stops" the reapers from immediately blasting the crucible. The variables have been altered, and both shepard and the catalyst need the crucible to be activated, if they want to achive their goals. The crucible docking, from the catalyst point of view, can be seen as the famous "last straw" (the catalyst finally acknowldge that the process, started with the prothean scientist of Ilos, is no longer reversible). Something very close to what legion say about the heretics ""An equation with a result of 1.33382 returns as 1.33381. This changes the result of all higher processes. We will reach different conclusions". A little difference with huge consequences. So the catalyst want the crucible to be used before it is destroyed/becomes useless (there is no much time, and the game shows it: if Shepard doesn't act, the crucible will be destroyed), and he needs Shepard to do so.
In conclusion, a ) IF the catalyst is incapable of direct, material actions and b ) IF the docking of the crucible has - demonstrated that the Reaper-cycle solution won't work anymore - provided better options
THAN the catalyst actions (and me3 ending) make some sort of sense.
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Origin: ferroboy
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Post by dmc1001 on Mar 13, 2018 0:21:10 GMT
kalreegar : Not going to quote but the ideas are interesting. It does seem clear that the Catalyst is incapable of activating the Crucible on its own. It therefore "needs" organics in some capacity, possibly something the Leviathan planned from the start so that it could not choose to fully eliminate organics. As for the Leviathan, they're tricky. If we go ahead and accept that information learned in DLC is valid regardless (and I usually do), we know that the goal of the Catalyst was to stop synthetics from wiping out organics (not necessarily the other way around, which is why Destroy would be a valid option, even if the Catalyst doesn't like it). But we also know why this directive was given: "Tribute does not flow from a dead race." Those were the direct words the Leviathan spoke to Shepard. That means the whole purpose of its existence is to allow the Leviathan to once more receive tribute. Control could be seen as a very undesirable outcome because Shepard in control of the Reapers means that the Leviathan can be hunted down and prevented from ever attaining control again. Finally, even if the existence of the Crucible (used in the current cycle or not) means the Reapers cease to be a threat, that doesn't mean the Leviathan don't take control of the galaxy again. Fact is, those who left for Andromeda might be the only free sentients native to the Milky Way that have free will. Scary to think about.
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Post by sgtreed24 on Mar 13, 2018 15:58:49 GMT
Things that don't make sense:
Mass Effect 2 & 3's logos... who tf designed those things? They're god awful! Imo they clash pretty hardcore with the Sci-Fi style of the words Mass Effect.
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Post by AnDromedary on Mar 13, 2018 17:37:43 GMT
Things that don't make sense: Mass Effect 2 & 3's logos... who tf designed those things? They're god awful! Imo they clash pretty hardcore with the Sci-Fi style of the words Mass Effect. When ME2 came out, the devs and the marketing people clearly had this obsession about showing off how Shepard was broken, killed, gone, blown up, you know ... fucked. I mean, this was their very first announcement trailer. Their signature image for ME2 promo material was the scratched and broken N7 armor. See e.g. the cover of the special edition box: My guess is that the scratched white number 2 on the rugged red background in the ME2 logo was supposed to represent that same image. For ME3, they then stuck with it, though I'll have to grant them that a lot of things do break in ME3. I agree that the design is awful.
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Post by shechinah on Mar 13, 2018 21:13:00 GMT
Things that don't make sense: Mass Effect 2 & 3's logos... who tf designed those things? They're god awful! Imo they clash pretty hardcore with the Sci-Fi style of the words Mass Effect. When ME2 came out, the devs and the marketing people clearly had this obsession about showing off how Shepard was broken, killed, gone, blown up, you know ... fucked. I mean, this was their very first announcement trailer.Their signature image for ME2 promo material was the scratched and broken N7 armor. See e.g. the cover of the special edition box: Wait, really? That's hilarious when you consider how little Shepard cared about their own death and the two years they lost.
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Post by dmc1001 on Mar 14, 2018 3:02:28 GMT
When ME2 came out, the devs and the marketing people clearly had this obsession about showing off how Shepard was broken, killed, gone, blown up, you know ... fucked. I mean, this was their very first announcement trailer.Their signature image for ME2 promo material was the scratched and broken N7 armor. See e.g. the cover of the special edition box: Wait, really? That's hilarious when you consider how little Shepard cared about their own death and the two years they lost. They certainly seemed to be implying that Shepard's mind had been placed in the body of a geth. That might better explain why Legion patched itself up with N7 armor, a question it poorly dodged when asked about by Shepard.
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Post by shechinah on Mar 14, 2018 3:50:16 GMT
Wait, really? That's hilarious when you consider how little Shepard cared about their own death and the two years they lost. They certainly seemed to be implying that Shepard's mind had been placed in the body of a geth. That might better explain why Legion patched itself up with N7 armor, a question it poorly dodged when asked about by Shepard. Okay, I would have loved to see how that draft turned out because that sounds gloriously silly and wonderful all at once.
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Post by themikefest on Mar 14, 2018 4:03:53 GMT
They certainly seemed to be implying that Shepard's mind had been placed in the body of a geth. That might better explain why Legion patched itself up with N7 armor, a question it poorly dodged when asked about by Shepard. It did answer the question after the suicide mission
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Post by dmc1001 on Mar 14, 2018 4:25:07 GMT
They certainly seemed to be implying that Shepard's mind had been placed in the body of a geth. That might better explain why Legion patched itself up with N7 armor, a question it poorly dodged when asked about by Shepard. It did answer the question after the suicide mission Because it had a hole? It seemed like there was more to it and we were not getting an answer. Legion had to have been on Alchera, meaning it followed Shepard there.
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Post by themikefest on Mar 14, 2018 4:36:44 GMT
Because it had a hole? It seemed like there was more to it and we were not getting an answer. Legion had to have been on Alchera, meaning it followed Shepard there. I don't like the answer either. At least Shepard gets the opportunity to ask the question and receive an answer. Something Shepard wasn't able to ask the asari why she had her/his armor.
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Post by dmc1001 on Mar 14, 2018 4:47:36 GMT
Because it had a hole? It seemed like there was more to it and we were not getting an answer. Legion had to have been on Alchera, meaning it followed Shepard there. I don't like the answer either. At least Shepard gets the opportunity to ask the question and receive an answer. Something Shepard wasn't able to ask the asari why she had her/his armor. "She's a stalker" is the obvious answer.
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Post by themikefest on Mar 14, 2018 4:50:47 GMT
"She's a stalker" is the obvious answer. I suspect the reason why is because Bioware didn't want to create any friction between Shepard and the asari.
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Post by dmc1001 on Mar 14, 2018 5:01:33 GMT
"She's a stalker" is the obvious answer. I suspect the reason why is because Bioware didn't want to create any friction between Shepard and the asari. Probably. I don't hate her I just don't think she makes sense as a single character. She doesn't have the relative age or experience to fulfill any of her roles - as a "super" archaeologist, as a top notch information broker, and certainly not as a squadmate on par with people who had trained as fighters. As I said elsewhere, she could have worked in an Ann Bryson role or as a much older, commando-turned-archaeologist, but she failed to be realistic, even given that it's a science fiction game.
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Post by AnDromedary on Mar 14, 2018 6:12:33 GMT
I suspect the reason why is because Bioware didn't want to create any friction between Shepard and the asari. Probably. I don't hate her I just don't think she makes sense as a single character. She doesn't have the relative age or experience to fulfill any of her roles - as a "super" archaeologist, as a top notch information broker, and certainly not as a squadmate on par with people who had trained as fighters. As I said elsewhere, she could have worked in an Ann Bryson role or as a much older, commando-turned-archaeologist, but she failed to be realistic, even given that it's a science fiction game. Well, she is 106 years old. While, as you say, this is relatively young for an asari, they don't seem to learn any slower than us, so it's not unfeasible that she is on par a bunch of human squad mates. It is implied quite often that asari do take up multiple roles throughout their lives. Liara may just be special in that she was one of the few who didn't choose to spend her maiden years stripping in some shady club like most of the others semm to do. BTW, was the "Shepard's mind in a geth" really a draft idea or is that just something you came up with? I had never heard of this before. AFAIK, when they showed that teaser, the plot for ME2 should already have been pretty much complete. It wasn't that long before the E3 or gdc or whatever it was, where they showed Thane's LM in a fairly complete state after all. I thought the teaser was just meant to freak us out (and it did at the time, I'll give 'em that much).
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Post by dmc1001 on Mar 14, 2018 6:51:58 GMT
Probably. I don't hate her I just don't think she makes sense as a single character. She doesn't have the relative age or experience to fulfill any of her roles - as a "super" archaeologist, as a top notch information broker, and certainly not as a squadmate on par with people who had trained as fighters. As I said elsewhere, she could have worked in an Ann Bryson role or as a much older, commando-turned-archaeologist, but she failed to be realistic, even given that it's a science fiction game. Well, she is 106 years old. While, as you say, this is relatively young for an asari, they don't seem to learn any slower than us, so it's not unfeasible that she is on par a bunch of human squad mates. It is implied quite often that asari do take up multiple roles throughout their lives. Liara may just be special in that she was one of the few who didn't choose to spend her maiden years stripping in some shady club like most of the others semm to do. BTW, was the "Shepard's mind in a geth" really a draft idea or is that just something you came up with? I had never heard of this before. AFAIK, when they showed that teaser, the plot for ME2 should already have been pretty much complete. It wasn't that long before the E3 or gdc or whatever it was, where they showed Thane's LM in a fairly complete state after all. I thought the teaser was just meant to freak us out (and it did at the time, I'll give 'em that much). Yeah, her being "special" was part of the problem. She was a little too special for my tastes. If you're going to go with cute and sweet she shouldn't also be super awesome in every thing she tries. Just my take. And I wasn't asking her to be a stripper but the strippers don't start with asari commando skills. Liara seems to have done so. As for the geth thing, I thought I remembered hearing something about it some time ago. Don't know the origin of the idea but it wasn't with me.
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Post by Phantom on Mar 14, 2018 18:13:32 GMT
Well there is an potential arguement for Liara to be a Mary Sue.
A negative trait of a Mary Sue is an unbelievable transition between roles with supposed extremely capable in those roles at an unrealisticly young age. A highly intelligent person with a long lifespan can't pull off what she do realisticly.
If she was focus on being a Prothean researcher and a realistic cross training with weapons training with her time with Shepard, then I will not have a problem with her. Shadow Broker role has a much broader skillset than just a dedicated Prothean Researcher. Being a Generalist can be useful but there is a thing as too much of a Generalist due to a lack of focus to be good at anything.
Personally I prefer Samara over Liara in overall characterization.
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Post by themikefest on Mar 14, 2018 19:22:41 GMT
Probably. I don't hate her I just don't think she makes sense as a single character. She doesn't have the relative age or experience to fulfill any of her roles - as a "super" archaeologist, as a top notch information broker, and certainly not as a squadmate on par with people who had trained as fighters. As I said elsewhere, she could have worked in an Ann Bryson role or as a much older, commando-turned-archaeologist, but she failed to be realistic, even given that it's a science fiction game. The only thing her background supports is her studying protheans. She has no training or experience in combat as the trilogy shows. There is no reason why she is the one helping recover Shepard's body. If it wasn't for Cerberus, she would never had made any attempt to go after Shepard's cbody. I would have let Cerberus be the only ones involved in recovering Shepard's body. I do like the idea of Bryson angle. In ME1, Liara's job is to say Ilos. In ME2, she never shows up. In ME3, she's on Mars after learning the protheans may have something that can be used to stop the reapers. After Mars, she is sent to Hackett.
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Post by themikefest on Mar 21, 2018 4:12:34 GMT
How did Vendetta, the protheans, know that each cycle added something to the crucible over millions of years? Did they encounter a Inusannon VI that told them that?
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Mar 21, 2018 12:02:32 GMT
Imo everything related to ME3 ending makes sense, at least on a general level. THE CATALYSTThe catalyst is an advanced AI, and it was created in order to solve the “chaos problem” (synthetcs-organics conflict, technological singularity maybe? etc). The reapers are its current solution. The catalyst controls the reapers (probably it's not the same "direct" control of Harb vs Collector's leader: the catalyst embodies the collective intelligence of the reapers, so even if the Catalyst can of course influence the reapers, every reaper mantains, within certain limits, a specific individuality, as Sovereing said). The catalyst doens't direclty and fully control the Citadel. Not the arms and the mass-relay (the relevant parts) at least. Maybe it used to control it/them through the keepers (we know there is a strong connection between the keepers and the citadel/reapers), but we know that the prothean scientist from Ilos somehow broke this connction. We never see the catalyst directly controlling anything, even when it would have been useful for its purposes. The catalyst need Saren, the Sovereign, Cerberus, Tim and finally Shepard to perform “material” operations. The catalyst is very likely unable to control the Crucible, too. Referring to the possibile choices that the Crucible provides, it says "I can't make it happen". So we can be almost certain that it needs Shepard to use the crucible. So we can summarize the previous point in one general statement: the Catalyst is incapable of direct, relevant material actions, it can only influence/control the reapers. THE CRUCIBLEThe crucible is, according to the catalyst, little more than a rude power source (from the catalyst point of view, at least), but in combination with the citadel it is capable of realising a huge amount of energy. So, it's not an hacking device or something similar, just a powerful weapon of mass destruction. We don't know who designed it (very likely not the Leviathans, because the catalyst says, reffering to the crucible designers, "you wouldn't know them" -> and Shepard knows the Leviathans). We only know that its design evolved many times. THE CRUCIBLE DOCKINGThis is the crucial moment. Once the crucible docked, Shepard is brought by the platform (which is probably part of the crucible) in front of the catalyst. The crucible is not working, it needs to be activated The 1 million dollars question is: why the catalyst doesn't shut of the crucible or, if it can't “personally” do that (we have said that he is probably incapable of direct, material action), why doesn't it wait/order to the reapers to destroy it and to continue the cycle? Why does the catalyst seem to strongly desire that the crubile is preserved and activated? The answer to this question is resumable in one sentece: the variables have been altered. More specifically: 1. Its solution (the reapers) won't work anymore. The Crucible has been proven possible and a real threat, that its mere existence as a tangible object - and not a dreamy idea - changes things completely because one day the Reapers will be defeated by it (and refusal ending proves it -> the stargazer says that "the reapers are no longer a threat"). Even if the crucible is not used, the reapers days are done, defeated by the next cycle or simply "fired" by the catalyst after completing the current harvest. They no longer have the strenght (they already had some relevant losses) to continue the cycle. The can complete this one, but not the next one. 2. The crucible changed the catalyst... created new possibilities. The catalyst original solution won't work anymore, but new solutions are now available. All of them are better than the reapers. - Synthesis: do I really need to explain why this is the perfect solution from the catalyst point of view? (N.B. for the catalyst this is the only true solution; the other options are both a makeshif at best, the lesser evil) - Control: the reapers can be "upgraded" with a new catalyst 2.0 (the sheparlyst) and, thanks to Shepard's memories, consciousness, readiness etc, they can become somehow more effective, adapter to their new task of “peace-keeping”. - Destroy: this cycle has proven itself worthy/ready, somehow special, and since crucible is a weapon that can destroy every single syntetic organism in the galaxy in few minutes, the organics of this “exceptional” cycle have proven that they can effectively deal with the synthetics threat (or, at least, better and/or longer than the reapers or other less special cycles). Another possibility is that if this cycle kills all the advanced synthetics, organics may gain the upperhand for a few decade, and be able ot explout this advantage. This is why the catalyst helps shepard, gives him information, doesn't shut off the crucible and/or "stops" the reapers from immediately blasting the crucible. The variables have been altered, and both shepard and the catalyst need the crucible to be activated, if they want to achive their goals. The crucible docking, from the catalyst point of view, can be seen as the famous "last straw" (the catalyst finally acknowldge that the process, started with the prothean scientist of Ilos, is no longer reversible). Something very close to what legion say about the heretics ""An equation with a result of 1.33382 returns as 1.33381. This changes the result of all higher processes. We will reach different conclusions". A little difference with huge consequences. So the catalyst want the crucible to be used before it is destroyed/becomes useless (there is no much time, and the game shows it: if Shepard doesn't act, the crucible will be destroyed), and he needs Shepard to do so. In conclusion, a ) IF the catalyst is incapable of direct, material actions and b ) IF the docking of the crucible has - demonstrated that the Reaper-cycle solution won't work anymore - provided better options THAN the catalyst actions (and me3 ending) make some sort of sense. I've also mostly come to terms with accepting what actually physically happens in 3 on face value making sense... but it just doesn't make sense on other levels and some stuff like the Asari superiority, The Beautiful Tuchanka, Geth Pinnochios, "Mass Effect is totally about the fatalism of war", The Kid etc. etc. either feel tonally or thematically inconsistent with the previous games just in the way it's pulled off. I believe any story can eventually be anything it wants to, even Mass Effect, even Time Travel if need be... but everything, and especially the larger we go in ambition of idea, it has to be set up and executed upon properly. That's where ME3 fails and in a few key scenes woefully botches the storytelling entirely.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Mar 21, 2018 15:35:13 GMT
I've also mostly come to terms with accepting what actually physically happens in 3 on face value making sense... but it just doesn't make sense on other levels and some stuff like the Asari superiority, The Beautiful Tuchanka, Geth Pinnochios, "Mass Effect is totally about the fatalism of war", The Kid etc. etc. either feel tonally or thematically inconsistent with the previous games just in the way it's pulled off. I believe any story can eventually be anything it wants to, even Mass Effect, even Time Travel if need be... but everything, and especially the larger we go in ambition of idea, it has to be set up and executed upon properly. That's where ME3 fails and in a few key scenes woefully botches the storytelling entirely. That is mostly your own fault rather then the result of the writers. You interpret it the way you want to see it. While maybe not you specifically there are people who completely disregard the fact the Qurians started a war bent on genocide against the Geth as soon as they thought they had the advantage. As well as the fact the Geth were created by accident. They were never intended to be sentient yet they became it on their own and developed at a rate much faster then the Quairans anticipated resulting in a war that saw the Quarian population drop from several hundred million to only like 40,000. With their home planet being rendered almost inhospitable by the effects of the conflict. Which is very relevant information when talking about the Catalyst's logic and solution. While the rest of the galaxy was the result of evolution the Asari race were genetically engineered by the Protheans to at first be a race worthy of joining their Empire and later as a successor to their Empire. With the Protheans directly handing the Asari technology including a fully functioning computer full of all of the details and information they felt the Asari would need to be their spiritual successor and take down the Reapers. This would have information far different then a simple outpost or research station. And that isn't getting into social aspects that the result of their long life span allows them to take a much longer view. Making them more idea for diplomatic aspects then much shorter lived species. This is directly in ME 1. The Turians were more then willing to go to war with the Alliance for opening Relays. The Asari with their more long term thinking pushed to get the Turians to back down and invite them into the wider galaxy. The result not counting Shepard and his adventures resulted in a boon to the greater galaxy in technological development and commerce. No idea what you mean by beautiful Tuchunka. Anyone who says Geth Pinocchio shows they didn't pay attention at all. Like the teacher is talking about fruits and vegetables and you raise your hand and ask if sand stone is sedimentary or metaphoric rock. Mass Effect 3 is very much about the fatalism of war. The kid I assume you mean the one from the opening bit? Symbolism is important and often used as a short hand to show themes and ideas.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Mar 21, 2018 16:08:57 GMT
Well there is an potential arguement for Liara to be a Mary Sue. A negative trait of a Mary Sue is an unbelievable transition between roles with supposed extremely capable in those roles at an unrealisticly young age. A highly intelligent person with a long lifespan can't pull off what she do realisticly. If she was focus on being a Prothean researcher and a realistic cross training with weapons training with her time with Shepard, then I will not have a problem with her. Shadow Broker role has a much broader skillset than just a dedicated Prothean Researcher. Being a Generalist can be useful but there is a thing as too much of a Generalist due to a lack of focus to be good at anything. Personally I prefer Samara over Liara in overall characterization. She is young by Asari standards but ancient by every other race's standards. That said it is clear that she is the squad version of an Adept. Someone who relies on biotics more then fire arms. In that case she isn't a mary sue because she is an Asari and they all are trained to use biotics from an early age. And it is clear she recived weapons training from Shepard and the rest of the crew. If during the retake the Normandy mission of the Citadel DLC you select Liara and Wrex he will mention if Liara still remembers that quick reload trick he taught her. As well as the transition from archeologist to information broker isn't a sudden change. From the time Shepard picks her up in ME 1 and she realizes the significance of the Reapers she shifts gears into trying to gather information about them to help stop them. Given the 2 year gap between ME 1 and ME 2 that is more then enough time to learn a new skill. Given that spying and archeology do have some common ground. Like the fact that not all information is valid or relevant and learning what is true and what isn't is an important detail of both. She only becomes the Shadow Broker as an impulse decision. And already has the well developed system in place to step into. She didn't just go right from being picked up off a planet into the Shadow Broker. There are reasonable transition from one state to the next and while they might be a bit accelerated she is no different in that aspect then just about any other squad member including Shepard. I don't see people complaining about Garrus's going from a standard cop to leading a small para-military unit that engages in covert lethal attacks on well established gangs with 100 times the resources as them in the very heart of their territories while only being taken down when one of their own betrays the rest of the group.
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Post by Phantom on Mar 21, 2018 17:12:44 GMT
2 years to become an effective Shadow Broker is the unbelievable for any character that lack the background within Intelligence field. Keep in Mind that there are spies working for the Previous Shadow Broker will notice subtle shifts within the current Shadow Broker. I am not calling Liara stupid but the time frame is unbelievable and able to keep her ass covered from the same thing happen to her like the Yagh Shadow Broker. I don't consider Mass Effect to be perfect or flawless but in order to make Liara a believable and Effective Shadow Broker while transition from an Prothean Researcher to a leader of an Intelligence Organization needs a more believable time frame. For Example, within the CIA, to be the leader of the CIA or to an high ranking official, a good decade or more will be required. Her Background would get her recruited within any reliable intelligence organization and her intelligence will get her far within 2 year but not the Spymaster of the entire organization.
In Short, To improve her overall character, having her as a member of Shadow Broker organization for several years due to her background as a Prothean Researcher and as for abilities, give her Pistols tree within ME1.
Also there are plenty of ways to improve Mass Effect.
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