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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Sept 30, 2016 3:03:52 GMT
In ME1 conversation with Wrex telling Shepard how me previously met Saren... In the first part of the conversation, he describes the operations as their "biggest haul yet"; however, a few seconds later, he tells Shepard that "if there was anything of value on that ship, [he] never saw it." Even though Wrex is obviously contradicting himself here, Shepard doesn't confront him on it. You can have a big haul and it can be worthless.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2016 11:39:24 GMT
In ME1 conversation with Wrex telling Shepard how me previously met Saren... In the first part of the conversation, he describes the operations as their "biggest haul yet"; however, a few seconds later, he tells Shepard that "if there was anything of value on that ship, [he] never saw it." Even though Wrex is obviously contradicting himself here, Shepard doesn't confront him on it. You can have a big haul and it can be worthless. Yeah, I supposed 1-800-GOT-JUNK views it that way. Somehow didn't get the impression Saren was into that sort of business though.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Sept 30, 2016 12:56:33 GMT
You can have a big haul and it can be worthless. Yeah, I supposed 1-800-GOT-JUNK views it that way. Somehow didn't get the impression Saren was into that sort of business though. Well Saren seems to like all sorts of things
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2016 14:10:19 GMT
Yeah, I supposed 1-800-GOT-JUNK views it that way. Somehow didn't get the impression Saren was into that sort of business though. Well Saren seems to like all sorts of things I think the operation was a ruse to collect Krogan for his breeding facility on Virmire.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Sept 30, 2016 17:04:32 GMT
Well Saren seems to like all sorts of things I think the operation was a ruse to collect Krogan for his breeding facility on Virmire. Or to round up mercenaries that would willingly attack Citadel transports and kill them. Seems like something he would do.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2016 20:25:36 GMT
For all of the Virmire base being trumped up as a "breeding facility" for Krogan... we only see a few Krogan mercenaries, 1 Krogan doctor and no sign of any females or krogan hatchlings/babies or any Krogan test subjects of any kind. We also don't see any evidence of any tank breeding happening either. What we see of the labs is all about studying indoctrination using fairly recently captured salarians and, evidently, some unrelated experiments about turning humans into husks. I know Rana Thanoptis explains that we're not on the breeding level; but wouldn't it have made more sense to have some Krogan (perhaps indoctrinated ones) in one of the cell blocks?
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Post by straykat on Oct 2, 2016 7:01:15 GMT
For all of the Virmire base being trumped up as a "breeding facility" for Krogan... we only see a few Krogan mercenaries, 1 Krogan doctor and no sign of any females or krogan hatchlings/babies or any Krogan test subjects of any kind. We also don't see any evidence of any tank breeding happening either. What we see of the labs is all about studying indoctrination using fairly recently captured salarians and, evidently, some unrelated experiments about turning humans into husks. I know Rana Thanoptis explains that we're not on the breeding level; but wouldn't it have made more sense to have some Krogan (perhaps indoctrinated ones) in one of the cell blocks? Well..... environments have never been this series' forte. Especially ME1... it's very barebones. But that's probably the spot where you see the most Krogan at once.. besides the last Citadel fight. Not excusing it though. I wish everything had the attention to detail as, say, Afterlife or something.
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Post by KrrKs on Oct 2, 2016 12:36:57 GMT
For all of the Virmire base being trumped up as a "breeding facility" for Krogan... we only see a few Krogan mercenaries, 1 Krogan doctor and no sign of any females or krogan hatchlings/babies or any Krogan test subjects of any kind. We also don't see any evidence of any tank breeding happening either. There are a whole lot of breeding tanks in the vicinity of the bomb site, in addition to those at the laboratory. That we didn't see any krogan babies doesn't mean much, as even Okeer was breeding fully grown Krogans. The breeding tanks we see are all empty, but my headcanon justification is that all Krogans were released, armed, and sent to stop Kirrahe's teams. Fun fact: I'm relatively sure that the tanks on Virmire are the same model as used in ME3 Sanctuary. I think Grunts tank is also based on the same asset, with very slightly alterations done to it.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2016 13:51:51 GMT
For all of the Virmire base being trumped up as a "breeding facility" for Krogan... we only see a few Krogan mercenaries, 1 Krogan doctor and no sign of any females or krogan hatchlings/babies or any Krogan test subjects of any kind. We also don't see any evidence of any tank breeding happening either. There are a whole lot of breeding tanks in the vicinity of the bomb site, in addition to those at the laboratory. That we didn't see any krogan babies doesn't mean much, as even Okeer was breeding fully grown Krogans. The breeding tanks we see are all empty, but my headcanon justification is that all Krogans were released, armed, and sent to stop Kirrahe's teams. Fun fact: I'm relatively sure that the tanks on Virmire are the same model as used in ME3 Sanctuary. I think Grunts tank is also based on the same asset, with very slightly alterations done to it. I'll have to take a closer look then when I hit that point in my current playthrough. In the lab, I''ve seen the devices that release the husks (not really the same as the one's that convert people to husks and other species into their Reaper equivalents in ME3, IMO), but nothing I recognized or connected to tanks like Grunt's on Korlus. I will take a closer look though. I guess part of what I'm wondering though is why we're not shown any "indoctrinated" Krogan. I actually think we're not shown any that have the symptoms of it throughout the entire game. Are Krogan especially resistant to being indoctrinated? - such that Saren had to resort to capturing Salarians to investigate the issue. In that the Salarians were fairly recently captured and turned into "mindless husks" relatively quickly (within, what, a week since that Salarian group was captured), is the developer implying that different species can be more or less resistant to indoctrination based on the "nature?" Shepard being a human outlier who is perhaps "more Krogan-like" and resistant to the process?
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Post by dmc1001 on Oct 2, 2016 19:18:07 GMT
I guess part of what I'm wondering though is why we're not shown any "indoctrinated" Krogan. I actually think we're not shown any that have the symptoms of it throughout the entire game. Are Krogan especially resistant to being indoctrinated? - such that Saren had to resort to capturing Salarians to investigate the issue. In that the Salarians were fairly recently captured and turned into "mindless husks" relatively quickly (within, what, a week since that Salarian group was captured), is the developer implying that different species can be more or less resistant to indoctrination based on the "nature?" Shepard being a human outlier who is perhaps "more Krogan-like" and resistant to the process? It's a good question. We do see a krogan/turian "husk" in the form of a brute, but no pure krogan transformation. And we definitely saw no evidence, or mention, of krogan indoctrination. If that's the case, you want those guys fighting on your side without a doubt. From an RP perspective, it would bring something new to the table when deciding whether or not cure the genophage.
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Post by melbella on Oct 2, 2016 19:37:32 GMT
I guess part of what I'm wondering though is why we're not shown any "indoctrinated" Krogan. I actually think we're not shown any that have the symptoms of it throughout the entire game. Are Krogan especially resistant to being indoctrinated? - such that Saren had to resort to capturing Salarians to investigate the issue. In that the Salarians were fairly recently captured and turned into "mindless husks" relatively quickly (within, what, a week since that Salarian group was captured), is the developer implying that different species can be more or less resistant to indoctrination based on the "nature?" Shepard being a human outlier who is perhaps "more Krogan-like" and resistant to the process? It's a good question. We do see a krogan/turian "husk" in the form of a brute, but no pure krogan transformation. And we definitely saw no evidence, or mention, of krogan indoctrination. If that's the case, you want those guys fighting on your side without a doubt. From an RP perspective, it would bring something new to the table when deciding whether or not cure the genophage.
It is. The Reaper is on Tuchanka not to indoctrinate/recruit krogan, but rather to poison the air (even more) and kill them off instead? Also interesting that there are no "pure" krogan huskified troops, only the hybrid brutes. Could be something about their biology or something else, like with the rachni. While not immune to influence, the rachni queen couldn't be indoctrinated, which is why she was chained up instead. I wonder if the devs thought about doing something similar with the krogan but the reason for it was never fully established and so was left out.
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Post by straykat on Oct 2, 2016 20:11:14 GMT
Maybe Harbinger is a good indicator:
"Krogan; sterilised race, potential wasted.”
edit:
Also,
"Quarian; considered due to cybernetic augmentation, weakened immune system too debilitating.”
“Drell; useless, insufficient numbers.”
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Post by melbella on Oct 2, 2016 20:29:02 GMT
Maybe Harbinger is a good indicator: "Krogan; sterilised race, potential wasted.” edit: Also, "Quarian; considered due to cybernetic augmentation, weakened immune system too debilitating.” “Drell; useless, insufficient numbers.”
That's an odd thing for him to say about krogan considering collectors have been cloned for millennia. What difference does it make if they're sterilized or not when you can create more via cloning anyway?
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Post by straykat on Oct 2, 2016 20:32:22 GMT
Maybe Harbinger is a good indicator: "Krogan; sterilised race, potential wasted.” edit: Also, "Quarian; considered due to cybernetic augmentation, weakened immune system too debilitating.” “Drell; useless, insufficient numbers.”
That's an odd thing for him to say about krogan considering collectors have been cloned for millennia. What difference does it make if they're sterilized or not when you can create more via cloning anyway?
I'm not really sure. Just throwing it out, as food for thought. Probably the only time we get an assessment like that from Reapers. Maybe it's not even relevant and is some relic of Drew K's old dark energy storyline, which required mass use of a race. Maybe it required all genetic abilities in tact. /shrug
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Post by aoibhealfae on Oct 3, 2016 9:15:56 GMT
Because the Genophage forced the Krogan population into a sieve, small gene pool provide less diverse sample size and reduced genetic variance. The krogan are a biologically-adaptive race. Their species could withstand excessive radiation and still have the ability to reproduce and regenerate and could live for over a thousand years (Okeer is ancient by standard if Wrex is considered him "very old") and they're also capable of biotics.
Its not that the reapers can't correct the genophage to make more Krogan (Sovereign did in ME1) but even they didn't understand the species itself. Not like the way Okeer did to make Grunt and even Wrex talk about their clan diversity. The reapers would have like it better if the Turians hadn't unleash the genophage and the Krogan won the rebellion and become dominant race in the galaxy.
Cloning doesn't always work and have high degree of failure even for something like microbes. You take one sample and duplicate them over and over, you'll lose a lot genetic integrity overtime and they did simply ended up as husks. That's why Reapers/Collectors always collect samples in large numbers from hundred of thousands to millions and billions.
What Harbinger said about the Asari make sense too. "Asari, reliance upon alien species for reproduction shows genetic weakness" especially since they rely on induced-parthenogenesis and preferred it with alien races rather than their own. I suppose this is to retain the modification done on the species.
At least, stuff like these made sense to me in genetics terms.
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Post by polaris on Oct 4, 2016 3:07:11 GMT
Here's one (and I mentioned it before on the old BSN Board a couple of years ago):
Vendetta refuses to reveal the catalyst to Shepard and Co on Thessia as a security measure to keep that information from the Reapers. This makes sense up until we find out that the Catalyst was the Citadel itself.
Say What?!
I would like everyone to consider that except (obviously) for the very first cycle, every cycle except ours start with the Reapers using the Citadel Mass Relay, capturing the Citadel, and then shutting down the Mass Relays except for the Reapers themselves crippling any enemy Command-Control-Communications-Intelligence right out of the gate. Our own cycle is unique in that the Reapers were not able to control the citadel out of the gate, and that was due to the efforts of a Prothean science team (per Vigil) that worked Feverishly centuries after the Reapers had already left the Galaxy for Dark Space and the rest of the Prothean race was long dead.
Given what the Protheans 50,000 years ago (and thus Vendetta) should have known, once Vendetta was satisfied that Shepard and Co weren't indoctrinated, the fact that the Citadel was the Catalyst should have been one of the very first things it would have revealed. Given a normal cycle, it makes no sense to keep this factoid a secret and in fact is counter-productive. After all, since the Citadel is obviously going to be the most heavily defended Reaper strongpoint (for reasons all on its own). Thus even if the Reapers do find out, they won't be able to defend it any more than they already are (at least in the Prothean cycle). Naturally the entire project has to be kept a deepest darkest secret, but playing games with this sort of information just makes it hard (and it's already virtually impossible) for anti-Reaper fleets to coordinate for an attack to retake the Citadel in order to use it. [Or at the very least Vendetta should WARN future anti-Reaper forces that retaking the Citadel (which should be the Prothean assumption) is what it's going to take.
The scenes only make sense for the situation as it applies in this cycle which is completely unique. It's like the developers forgot they even made ME1.
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Post by dmc1001 on Oct 4, 2016 3:49:31 GMT
According to mass effect wikia, the Catalyst resides within the Citadel. That's different than being the Citadel. (Note: The Crucible's entry is somewhat contradictory in this respect.) It's also possible that while the Protheans and Vendetta knew the Reapers first came in through the Citadel, and got control of it, they may have assumed that a signal was sent to the Keepers to make this happen. Hence, the Protheans changed the Keepers so that they wouldn't respond to that signal. No particular reason they would have thought that there's a secondary way or opening the Citadel to the Reapers. I always read the Catalyst as being, so far as anyone knew, an energy source to power the Crucible. That is, the Crucible wasn't powerful enough without it. I don't think they would have believed the Reaper creator/controller was actually housed in the Citadel. Otherwise, they'd have just blown up the place and been done with it. Then the Reapers never come through the relay and they aren't under Catalyst control anymore.
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Post by polaris on Oct 4, 2016 6:37:29 GMT
According to mass effect wikia, the Catalyst resides within the Citadel. That's different than being the Citadel. (Note: The Crucible's entry is somewhat contradictory in this respect.) It's also possible that while the Protheans and Vendetta knew the Reapers first came in through the Citadel, and got control of it, they may have assumed that a signal was sent to the Keepers to make this happen. Hence, the Protheans changed the Keepers so that they wouldn't respond to that signal. No particular reason they would have thought that there's a secondary way or opening the Citadel to the Reapers. I always read the Catalyst as being, so far as anyone knew, an energy source to power the Crucible. That is, the Crucible wasn't powerful enough without it. I don't think they would have believed the Reaper creator/controller was actually housed in the Citadel. Otherwise, they'd have just blown up the place and been done with it. Then the Reapers never come through the relay and they aren't under Catalyst control anymore. Several things here: 1. The Protheans didn't know the Catalyst was within the Citadel, nor could they (or anyone else other than the Levieathans I suppose) know that. You are assuming facts that the Protheans couldn't possibly know. For that matter as far as Shepard is concerned the Catalyst is the Citadel and reports to Alliance Command as such. 2. The Protheans didn't know about the relationship between the Keepers and the signal. Vigil in ME1 makes that very clear. It took DECADES of research after the fact for the Prothean Science team on Illos to make that discovery and do something about it....and that happened AFTER the Reapers destroyed all the rest of the Protheans. 3. The Citadel is essentially indestructable. Certainly it is to Reaper weapons and if it's that way to Reaper weapons I think it's a pretty safe bet it is to anyone else's as well. 4. The whole point is that given what the Protheans knew when Vendetta was programmed, keeping the fact that the Catalyst was the Citadel (as far as the Protheans knew) is the LAST thing they'd want to keep secret. Notice (in the refuse ending) that one of the very first things Liara does is warn future cycles that the Catalyst/Device is in essence a trap. The Protheans should have done the same logically....or at the very least warned any of those that found it that attacking Reaper Central would be needed. The Protheans would have to assume for future cycles that: a. The Citadel would be the very first thing to fall, and the thing most heavily guarded by the Reapers. b. That it wouldn't matter if the Reapers knew that the "Catalyst was the Citadel" (and of course in hindsight we find out the Reapers knew all along) because the Reapers wouldn't guard it any more tightly than they already would have anyway just by virtue of being the master relay for the entire mass-relay network.
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Post by shechinah on Oct 4, 2016 11:09:59 GMT
I know this is less an in-universe thing but as a story element, it still bothers me: what was even the point of Shepard dying and being resurrected in Mass Effect 2?
Despite the potential, they never seemed to really do anything with it. Like how Shepard barely, if ever, has any thoughts or feeling on having suffocated horribly in space while burning up in the atmosphere of a moon and being basically resurrected after two years of having been dead. Oh and having their body basically rebuilt.
Why did Shepard need to die? To do a time skip?
If so, why could Shepard honestly not just be in a coma for about two years perhaps as a result of the Collector attack?
Shepard is out of commision, the Normandy is destroyed and the squad has gone off to do their thing. Liara can even still end up in conflict with the Shadow Broker: she'd just be trying to retrieve Shepard's comatosed body instead of Shepard's remains from them. She hands Shepard over to Cerberus because they've performed horrible experiments that has enabled them to bring Shepard out of a coma or something.
Note: Apparently there were some dialogue with Ashley pertaining to the afterlife in Mass Effect 3 but I don't know how much of that was auto-dialogue and most importantly, it was cut. It should also have been something that was in Mass Effect 2.
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Post by shechinah on Oct 4, 2016 11:22:25 GMT
Why did Cerberus, Shepard and the game to a certain extent, claim that the Alliance was doing nothing about the colonists disappearing?
I never understood this and it may be because I'm missing something but we saw a cutscene in which Horizon is having weaponry given and installed by the Alliance. It's even these weapons that forces the Collectors to retreat with only a part of Horizon's populaton. The Alliance were clearly trying to do something about the disappearances and trying to protect colonies: the Alliance just didn't have sufficent information about the threat or how it operates.
This make sense given how the Collectors carry out their attacks and especially since the Alliance did not have access to any witnesses before Horizon: Veetor either leaves Freedom's Progress with the quarians or is taken by Ceberus. I don't know if the footage Veetor had was left or otherwise made avaliable to the Alliance.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2016 13:49:51 GMT
Why did Cerberus, Shepard and the game to a certain extent, claim that the Alliance was doing nothing about the colonists disappearing?
I never understood this and it may be because I'm missing something but we saw a cutscene in which Horizon is having weaponry given and installed by the Alliance. It's even these weapons that forces the Collectors to retreat with only a part of Horizon's populaton. The Alliance were clearly trying to do something about the disappearances and trying to protect colonies: the Alliance just didn't have sufficent information about the threat or how it operates.
This make sense given how the Collectors carry out their attacks and especially since the Alliance did not have access to any witnesses before Horizon: Veetor either leaves Freedom's Progress with the quarians or is taken by Ceberus. I don't know if the footage Veetor had was left or otherwise made avaliable to the Alliance. If Veetor is allowed to return to the flotilla, the Illusive Man indicates that Tali gave Veetor's omni-tool data to Cerberus, which I've always assumed included a recording of the footage. I've always interpreted the rumor that the Alliance was doing nothing as something that TIM wanted Shepard to believe rather than it being the absolute truth. Until Horizon, Shepard has no real way of knowing that the Alliance are doing things to try to stop the attacks. There's also the inherent suspicion the colonists have of the Alliance... they probably just generally comment to each other about the Alliance being ineffective (e.g. giving them a big gun that doesn't shoot straight, etc.)... just classic grousing around about a big organization not doing anything when they actually are. Happens all the time. Shepard also has a motivation to continue to "justify" in his/her own mind his/her having worked with Cerberus to take down the Collectors even after finding out on Horizon that they were trying to do some things (still too little too late in Shepard's mind). Also, depending on the personality of Shepard you're RP'ing, you can build him/her up as having some leanings towards Cerberus ideals and having frustrations with the Alliance even before the end of ME1. That the Alliance then basically sidelines Shep to geth cleanup after defeating Saren can also be viewed as another reason why Shepard could become just an average disgruntled ex-employee of the Alliance.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2016 14:02:35 GMT
I know this is less an in-universe thing but as a story element, it still bothers me: what was even the point of Shepard dying and being resurrected in Mass Effect 2?
Despite the potential, they never seemed to really do anything with it. Like how Shepard barely, if ever, has any thoughts or feeling on having suffocated horribly in space while burning up in the atmosphere of a moon and being basically resurrected after two years of having been dead. Oh and having their body basically rebuilt.
Why did Shepard need to die? To do a time skip?
If so, why could Shepard honestly not just be in a coma for about two years perhaps as a result of the Collector attack?
Shepard is out of commision, the Normandy is destroyed and the squad has gone off to do their thing. Liara can even still end up in conflict with the Shadow Broker: she'd just be trying to retrieve Shepard's comatosed body instead of Shepard's remains from them. She hands Shepard over to Cerberus because they've performed horrible experiments that has enabled them to bring Shepard out of a coma or something.
Note: Apparently there were some dialogue with Ashley pertaining to the afterlife in Mass Effect 3 but I don't know how much of that was auto-dialogue and most importantly, it was cut. It should also have been something that was in Mass Effect 2.
I agree... this whole Shepard dying thing was really just unnecessary "overkill."
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Post by shechinah on Oct 4, 2016 14:43:00 GMT
At the end of Mass Effect, if the Council has died and Shepard has made certain decisions, Udina will propose to make the Council be composed only of humans.
Where to even begin with how monumentally illogical a proposal this is especially from a diplomat whose characterization is suppose to be focused on avoiding "rocking the boat".
Does Udina honestly think that the other races would in any way be okay with this? Does he honestly think the other Council races would be fine with this? Does he even consider just how horrible this would make humanity look? Does he realize that the other races would begin to suspect a different motive behind leaving the Council to die than pragmatism in dealing with Sovereign?
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aoibhealfae
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The stars, the moon, they have all been blown out
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by aoibhealfae on Oct 4, 2016 14:45:48 GMT
Or Vandetta is correct the catalyst is the Citadel and that the Leviathan AI that called itself Catalyst only exist as a projection in Shepard's mind.
Also why can't Shepard bring Vandetta back from Cronus Station?
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Post by shechinah on Oct 4, 2016 14:53:27 GMT
Cerberus. From a privately funded shadow organization operating on the fringes to a powerhouse capable or rivaling the major players in the galaxy. In a time of total war, when the galactic economy has collapsed thanks to the Reaper's annihilation of the home worlds and colonies of the member species, we have Cerberus increasing its capacity to field armies, fleets & special project funding indefinitely. I think the only thing that ever remained consistent about Cerberus from the beginning to the end of the trilogy was that they performed horrific experiments that tended to backfire.
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