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Post by VanSinn on Apr 27, 2017 13:56:41 GMT
Not to be a dick, but it takes just as much belief in an unknown to deny a creator as it takes to believe in one. Not that anyone's necessarily wrong for being atheist, but at least be honest about the whole thing. God can be neither proven or disproven, so a firm belief either way requires "faith." The burden of proof is not on the atheist side. Just saying. :amirite: If you're gonna make a flat claim, "There is no God," the burden of proof is on you. If you're gonna make a flat claim, "There IS a God," the burden of proof for THAT claim is on you. Neither side can "prove" their assertion. Thus, it takes just as much "faith" to believe in NO God as it takes to believe in one.
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correctamundo
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Post by correctamundo on Apr 27, 2017 14:54:58 GMT
The burden of proof is not on the atheist side. Just saying. :amirite: If you're gonna make a flat claim, "There is no God," the burden of proof is on you. That is not the claim being made. Since there is a lack of proof for a god the question is moot.
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VanSinn
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Post by VanSinn on Apr 27, 2017 15:08:00 GMT
If you're gonna make a flat claim, "There is no God," the burden of proof is on you. That is not the claim being made. Since there is a lack of proof for a god the question is moot. Eh. Unless you're just trolling, I suggest reading up on how logic and debate work. That sounded more dickish than I meant it, but still. Claiming someone is foolish for believing in a God, when there's no proof that there ISN'T one, is just as foolish. I don't care what you do or do not believe, but dismissing someone for either belief is ridiculous.
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Post by Psychevore on Apr 27, 2017 15:28:12 GMT
The entire creator thing is a turn off of such epic proportions. So no, I wouldn't. And then those reasons why she thinks there's a screator... oh my goodness. It's just laughable, and that has to pass for a scientist? Ugh. Not to be a dick, but it takes just as much belief in an unknown to deny a creator as it takes to believe in one. Not that anyone's necessarily wrong for being atheist, but at least be honest about the whole thing. God can be neither proven or disproven, so a firm belief either way requires "faith." That's all really great, but none of the atheists came up with the idea of God. Those that come up with the idea better come up with the proof as well. I don't see why I should give the idea or concept of God any serious merit or credit. It's a wholly empty concept. Do you give the concepts of orcs, leprechauns, unicorns and Santa Claus the same treatment? You can't prove those don't exist either. Suvi's beliefs are basically 'well something can't come out of nothing, so... God', except that's just stupid. If something can't come out of nothing then where does God from? You just create the exact same problem you're trying to solve all over again. Sure, there's answer to that problem too, but you can apply those exact same answers to the universe/multiverse/whatever. i.e. it has always existed, it's the uncaused cause, etc.
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VanSinn
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Post by VanSinn on Apr 27, 2017 15:34:38 GMT
Not to be a dick, but it takes just as much belief in an unknown to deny a creator as it takes to believe in one. Not that anyone's necessarily wrong for being atheist, but at least be honest about the whole thing. God can be neither proven or disproven, so a firm belief either way requires "faith." That's all really great, but none of the atheists came up with the idea of God. Those that come up with the idea better come up with the proof as well. I don't see why I should give the idea or concept of God any serious merit or credit. It's a wholly empty concept. Do you give the concepts of orcs, leprechauns, unicorns and Santa Claus the same treatment? You can't prove those don't exist either. Suvi's beliefs are basically 'well something can't come out of nothing, so... God', except that's just stupid. If something can't come out of nothing then where does God from? You just create the exact same problem you're trying to solve all over again. Sure, there's answer to that problem too, but you can apply those exact same answers to the universe/multiverse/whatever. i.e. it has always existed, it's the uncaused cause, etc. Yanno. The militant atheists bother me as much as the overly evangelist christians do. By all means, believe what you want to believe, but being so openly dismissive of other people when their beliefs do not coincide with your own...yeah, I don't like it when Christians try to push their beliefs on people. Same vein, I don't like it when atheists do the same, and then claim some sort of moral authority to do so. Edit: I don't care one way or the other if you want to give the concept of a God any merit. But your unprovable belief that there is none is no more valid or INvalid than someone elses' belief that there IS one. Believe what you want, but don't dismiss or denegrate someone who believes differently.
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Post by Psychevore on Apr 27, 2017 15:52:28 GMT
That's all really great, but none of the atheists came up with the idea of God. Those that come up with the idea better come up with the proof as well. I don't see why I should give the idea or concept of God any serious merit or credit. It's a wholly empty concept. Do you give the concepts of orcs, leprechauns, unicorns and Santa Claus the same treatment? You can't prove those don't exist either. Suvi's beliefs are basically 'well something can't come out of nothing, so... God', except that's just stupid. If something can't come out of nothing then where does God from? You just create the exact same problem you're trying to solve all over again. Sure, there's answer to that problem too, but you can apply those exact same answers to the universe/multiverse/whatever. i.e. it has always existed, it's the uncaused cause, etc. Yanno. The militant atheists bother me as much as the overly evangelist christians do. By all means, believe what you want to believe, but being so openly dismissive of other people when their beliefs do not coincide with your own...yeah, I don't like it when Christians try to push their beliefs on people. Same vein, I don't like it when atheists do the same, and then claim some sort of moral authority to do so. Edit: I don't care one way or the other if you want to give the concept of a God any merit. But your unprovable belief that there is none is no more valid or INvalid than someone elses' belief that there IS one. Believe what you want, but don't dismiss or denegrate someone who believes differently. I asked you a question, but of course you dodged it because that blows a hole in everything you say.
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VanSinn
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Post by VanSinn on Apr 27, 2017 15:53:49 GMT
Yanno. The militant atheists bother me as much as the overly evangelist christians do. By all means, believe what you want to believe, but being so openly dismissive of other people when their beliefs do not coincide with your own...yeah, I don't like it when Christians try to push their beliefs on people. Same vein, I don't like it when atheists do the same, and then claim some sort of moral authority to do so. Edit: I don't care one way or the other if you want to give the concept of a God any merit. But your unprovable belief that there is none is no more valid or INvalid than someone elses' belief that there IS one. Believe what you want, but don't dismiss or denegrate someone who believes differently. I asked you a question, but of course you dodged it because that blows a hole in everything you say. I'm not pushing for the idea of a God. You're asking me a question on a topic I never expressed. If the situation were reversed, and a Christian was denegrating an atheist over their non belief, my argument would be exactly the same as it is here.
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Post by smellycatbutts on Apr 27, 2017 17:02:04 GMT
Not to be a dick, but it takes just as much belief in an unknown to deny a creator as it takes to believe in one. Not that anyone's necessarily wrong for being atheist, but at least be honest about the whole thing. God can be neither proven or disproven, so a firm belief either way requires "faith." That's all really great, but none of the atheists came up with the idea of God. Those that come up with the idea better come up with the proof as well. I don't see why I should give the idea or concept of God any serious merit or credit. It's a wholly empty concept. Do you give the concepts of orcs, leprechauns, unicorns and Santa Claus the same treatment? You can't prove those don't exist either. Suvi's beliefs are basically 'well something can't come out of nothing, so... God', except that's just stupid. If something can't come out of nothing then where does God from? You just create the exact same problem you're trying to solve all over again. Sure, there's answer to that problem too, but you can apply those exact same answers to the universe/multiverse/whatever. i.e. it has always existed, it's the uncaused cause, etc. That's actually a good point, and I'd like to hear the God v. Santa Claus thing refuted. Why wouldn't they be given the same treatment if it's all about faith? Also a real Christian would argue that only ONE god exists, their God, not another region's god...
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VanSinn
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Post by VanSinn on Apr 27, 2017 17:17:09 GMT
Is Santa Claus really the best comparison to make when trying to refute God? For the record, I'm not espousing any particular belief. That is not my intent here.
Santa Claus, as a myth, can be traced back to St. Nicholas, a Christian monk born in approximately 280 CE in Patara, near Myrna in modern Turkey. He apparently was a popular figure, and beloved for his kindness. Many legends sprung up around him, and over time became the Santa Claus legend we see today.
Religion, and the concept of a deity, is much harder to trace. It's been a part of the human experience since well before we had any records of it. Whether it's myth or not, there's no single event we can point to to "prove" or "disprove" where the "myth" started.
Please, if you're going to try and "disprove" God, come at me with a better comparison than "Santa Claus." Sheesh.
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Post by smellycatbutts on Apr 27, 2017 18:09:11 GMT
Is Santa Claus really the best comparison to make when trying to refute God? For the record, I'm not espousing any particular belief. That is not my intent here. Santa Claus, as a myth, can be traced back to St. Nicholas, a Christian monk born in approximately 280 CE in Patara, near Myrna in modern Turkey. He apparently was a popular figure, and beloved for his kindness. Many legends sprung up around him, and over time became the Santa Claus legend we see today. Religion, and the concept of a deity, is much harder to trace. It's been a part of the human experience since well before we had any records of it. Whether it's myth or not, there's no single event we can point to to "prove" or "disprove" where the "myth" started. Please, if you're going to try and "disprove" God, come at me with a better comparison than "Santa Claus." Sheesh. But he could still be real if I believe it hard enough. What about the Bible? It's a mythical story too. And with what you've stated, aren't Christians committing the same faults in logic by saying, "My God exists, but your God cannot exist"?
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VanSinn
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Post by VanSinn on Apr 27, 2017 18:16:46 GMT
Is Santa Claus really the best comparison to make when trying to refute God? For the record, I'm not espousing any particular belief. That is not my intent here. Santa Claus, as a myth, can be traced back to St. Nicholas, a Christian monk born in approximately 280 CE in Patara, near Myrna in modern Turkey. He apparently was a popular figure, and beloved for his kindness. Many legends sprung up around him, and over time became the Santa Claus legend we see today. Religion, and the concept of a deity, is much harder to trace. It's been a part of the human experience since well before we had any records of it. Whether it's myth or not, there's no single event we can point to to "prove" or "disprove" where the "myth" started. Please, if you're going to try and "disprove" God, come at me with a better comparison than "Santa Claus." Sheesh. But he could still be real if I believe it hard enough. What about the Bible? It's a mythical story too. And with what you've stated, aren't Christians committing the same faults in logic by saying, "My God exists, but your God cannot exist"? Why are you acting like I'm professing Christian beliefs? As to your second question, BELIEVING that is one thing. DENEGRATING someone for their beliefs is where I have a problem. If atheists don't believe god exists, it hurts no one and nothing. If Christians believe in Jehovah, it hurts no one and nothing. If Muslims believe in Allah, it hurts no one and nothing. The problem comes when you use your particular belief to think that others are inferior to yourself. Christians and Muslims and others have historically done VERY BAD THINGS to people who believe differently. Atheists have the saving grace that they haven't been responsible for such atrocities, but atheism, as a large movement, is a relatively new thing. Believe what you want to believe, worship who you want to worship, don't force your beliefs on others, and certainly don't think you're better than someone who believes differently.
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Post by Psychevore on Apr 27, 2017 20:45:39 GMT
Is Santa Claus really the best comparison to make when trying to refute God? For the record, I'm not espousing any particular belief. That is not my intent here. Santa Claus, as a myth, can be traced back to St. Nicholas, a Christian monk born in approximately 280 CE in Patara, near Myrna in modern Turkey. He apparently was a popular figure, and beloved for his kindness. Many legends sprung up around him, and over time became the Santa Claus legend we see today. Religion, and the concept of a deity, is much harder to trace. It's been a part of the human experience since well before we had any records of it. Whether it's myth or not, there's no single event we can point to to "prove" or "disprove" where the "myth" started. Please, if you're going to try and "disprove" God, come at me with a better comparison than "Santa Claus." Sheesh. Santa Claus is a great argument, because trying to prove that the mythical Santa Claus on the north pole really doesn't exist proves to be really, really hard. There's always a reason why you didn't look hard enough and failed to find Santa Claus. Sure, by time you've really, really looked hard Santa Claus has about the same non-properties as God. But that, is precisely the point. You can't prove a negative, so demanding someone comes up with some sort of proof to prove something doesn't exist is just ridiculous, that's not how it works. For someone big on logic you should know this by the way. I wasn't trying to disprove God, I can't. I just dismiss God with the same ease as you dismiss Santa Claus, as the proof for their existence is exactly equal. As for your other reply to someone else: Yes, Christians and Muslims have done awful things. Jews too, Hindus, Buddhists. Hell, even atheists, though never because of their disbelief in something. But I haven't seen anyone propose here that we should kill the religious or anything like that. All that's been said is that their ideas are ridiculous.
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VanSinn
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Post by VanSinn on Apr 27, 2017 20:56:43 GMT
Is Santa Claus really the best comparison to make when trying to refute God? For the record, I'm not espousing any particular belief. That is not my intent here. Santa Claus, as a myth, can be traced back to St. Nicholas, a Christian monk born in approximately 280 CE in Patara, near Myrna in modern Turkey. He apparently was a popular figure, and beloved for his kindness. Many legends sprung up around him, and over time became the Santa Claus legend we see today. Religion, and the concept of a deity, is much harder to trace. It's been a part of the human experience since well before we had any records of it. Whether it's myth or not, there's no single event we can point to to "prove" or "disprove" where the "myth" started. Please, if you're going to try and "disprove" God, come at me with a better comparison than "Santa Claus." Sheesh. Santa Claus is a great argument, because trying to prove that the mythical Santa Claus on the north pole really doesn't exist proves to be really, really hard. There's always a reason why you didn't look hard enough and failed to find Santa Claus. Sure, by time you've really, really looked hard Santa Claus has about the same non-properties as God. But that, is precisely the point. You can't prove a negative, so demanding someone comes up with some sort of proof to prove something doesn't exist is just ridiculous, that's not how it works. For someone big on logic you should know this by the way. I wasn't trying to disprove God, I can't. I just dismiss God with the same ease as you dismiss Santa Claus, as the proof for their existence is exactly equal. Where, in anything that I wrote, did I ask for someone to disprove God? I never once asked for such proof, and I never will, because it's unproveable. BOTH SIDES of the argument cannot be proven. The Santa Claus myth, as I've already explained, is traceable back to a source. The idea of the divine and religion cannot be. For the record: I am NOT trying to tell you you're wrong for being atheist. That was never my intent, and I'm frankly surprised that you've taken this in such a manner. My WHOLE point was you belittled Suvi (granted a fictional character, but the concept applies) for her beliefs, in stating "...it's laughable and that has to pass for a scientist? Ugh." MANY renowned scientists were religious, and many religious figured respected science and logic. They are not mutually exclusive. And completely dismissing someone for their personal beliefs is frankly, rather disgusting behavior. Whatever you personally believe, GREAT! If it works for you, GO WITH IT. But God cannot be proven, so Christians trying to argue for that are making a logical mistake. By the same token, God cannot be DISproven, so people trying to argue THAT are making logical errors. And both sides of said arguement are equally ridiculous.
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Post by smellycatbutts on Apr 28, 2017 4:31:17 GMT
But he could still be real if I believe it hard enough. What about the Bible? It's a mythical story too. And with what you've stated, aren't Christians committing the same faults in logic by saying, "My God exists, but your God cannot exist"? Why are you acting like I'm professing Christian beliefs? As to your second question, BELIEVING that is one thing. DENEGRATING someone for their beliefs is where I have a problem. If atheists don't believe god exists, it hurts no one and nothing. If Christians believe in Jehovah, it hurts no one and nothing. If Muslims believe in Allah, it hurts no one and nothing. The problem comes when you use your particular belief to think that others are inferior to yourself. Christians and Muslims and others have historically done VERY BAD THINGS to people who believe differently. Atheists have the saving grace that they haven't been responsible for such atrocities, but atheism, as a large movement, is a relatively new thing. Believe what you want to believe, worship who you want to worship, don't force your beliefs on others, and certainly don't think you're better than someone who believes differently. Chill out. Never said you were praising Allah or whatever God. Just saying your arguments can still be applied to Santa Claus. Sure you can trace back the Santa Claus myth, but you can trace back the Jesus myth to legends of other cultures. All religions are just fairy tales no different than Santa Claus. As for Suvi, I really hated interacting with her bc by the end of the main story line when she questions her belief in God, I didn't get the choice to encourage her to accept reality: that god doesn't exist. My character was forced to support her delusions. There were two dialogue choices, and both were in support of God. Like wtf?
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Post by VanSinn on Apr 28, 2017 4:54:14 GMT
Why are you acting like I'm professing Christian beliefs? As to your second question, BELIEVING that is one thing. DENEGRATING someone for their beliefs is where I have a problem. If atheists don't believe god exists, it hurts no one and nothing. If Christians believe in Jehovah, it hurts no one and nothing. If Muslims believe in Allah, it hurts no one and nothing. The problem comes when you use your particular belief to think that others are inferior to yourself. Christians and Muslims and others have historically done VERY BAD THINGS to people who believe differently. Atheists have the saving grace that they haven't been responsible for such atrocities, but atheism, as a large movement, is a relatively new thing. Believe what you want to believe, worship who you want to worship, don't force your beliefs on others, and certainly don't think you're better than someone who believes differently. Chill out. Never said you were praising Allah or whatever God. Just saying your arguments can still be applied to Santa Claus. Sure you can trace back the Santa Claus myth, but you can trace back the Jesus myth to legends of other cultures. All religions are just fairy tales no different than Santa Claus. As for Suvi, I really hated interacting with her bc by the end of the main story line when she questions her belief in God, I didn't get the choice to encourage her to accept reality: that god doesn't exist. My character was forced to support her delusions. There were two dialogue choices, and both were in support of God. Like wtf? And this is the kinda phrase I'm talking about. To you, it's reality. It is, in fact, an opinion. A considered opinion, I'm sure, but with no proof one way or the other, that's all it CAN be. You can trace similarities between the Abrahamic religions and older belief systems, sure. But you cannot find a "beginning" to the concept of a God or a deity or religious belief. That's the whole point I'm trying to make. There is no proof that God truly exists, but there's none that A god DOESN'T exist. Trying to claim, undisputedly, that there is no God requires just as much faith in an unproveable as claiming that there IS one. Please note, I'm not saying you're wrong. I do, in fact, happen to believe that a God exists, and I can't give you proof as to why. I will not, however, claim you're wrong, because I'm no more infallible than you are. All I'm saying is that at least try to acknowledge the fact that there's no way we can know one way or the other that a God exists, and thus demeaning someone because of that belief is flat out wrong. As to the game itself, I didn't know there was no way to dispute her beliefs at the end. I know there was one in the first conversation you have with her, but not at the end. If that's the case, I can see your frustration about wanting one, but framing it in terms of "getting her to see reality" means you can't even accept that her beliefs are personal, and no less important than your own. By all means, I'd like to see an option to dispute it, but not in the terms you're asking for. Like I said, if the situation I originally commented on was reversed, and it was a Christian (or any other "believer") belittling an atheist for not believing, I would be giving out the same arguments as I have been here.
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Post by smellycatbutts on Apr 28, 2017 7:37:12 GMT
Chill out. Never said you were praising Allah or whatever God. Just saying your arguments can still be applied to Santa Claus. Sure you can trace back the Santa Claus myth, but you can trace back the Jesus myth to legends of other cultures. All religions are just fairy tales no different than Santa Claus. As for Suvi, I really hated interacting with her bc by the end of the main story line when she questions her belief in God, I didn't get the choice to encourage her to accept reality: that god doesn't exist. My character was forced to support her delusions. There were two dialogue choices, and both were in support of God. Like wtf? And this is the kinda phrase I'm talking about. To you, it's reality. It is, in fact, an opinion. A considered opinion, I'm sure, but with no proof one way or the other, that's all it CAN be. You can trace similarities between the Abrahamic religions and older belief systems, sure. But you cannot find a "beginning" to the concept of a God or a deity or religious belief. That's the whole point I'm trying to make. There is no proof that God truly exists, but there's none that A god DOESN'T exist. Trying to claim, undisputedly, that there is no God requires just as much faith in an unproveable as claiming that there IS one. Please note, I'm not saying you're wrong. I do, in fact, happen to believe that a God exists, and I can't give you proof as to why. I will not, however, claim you're wrong, because I'm no more infallible than you are. All I'm saying is that at least try to acknowledge the fact that there's no way we can know one way or the other that a God exists, and thus demeaning someone because of that belief is flat out wrong. As to the game itself, I didn't know there was no way to dispute her beliefs at the end. I know there was one in the first conversation you have with her, but not at the end. If that's the case, I can see your frustration about wanting one, but framing it in terms of "getting her to see reality" means you can't even accept that her beliefs are personal, and no less important than your own. By all means, I'd like to see an option to dispute it, but not in the terms you're asking for. Like I said, if the situation I originally commented on was reversed, and it was a Christian (or any other "believer") belittling an atheist for not believing, I would be giving out the same arguments as I have been here. Well, demeaning someone bc of a belief is not always wrong, esp if they are in fact wrong, like about vaccines causing autism. On an urelated note, Suvi is just a character. Her feelings don't matter. I think we should be absolutely be able to tell her she is delusional. Besides, Suvi is noticeably more pissy when you don't agree with her about god. Ryder can do some scummy stuff in Andromeda, but somehow belittling Suvi is too much? I really hate how just bc we are the hero we have to be friends with everybody. I think failure with teammates should be possible. With Suvi, for example, she could become so pissy, she'd just shut up and do her job without anymore small talk.
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Post by Psychevore on Apr 28, 2017 9:21:52 GMT
Santa Claus is a great argument, because trying to prove that the mythical Santa Claus on the north pole really doesn't exist proves to be really, really hard. There's always a reason why you didn't look hard enough and failed to find Santa Claus. Sure, by time you've really, really looked hard Santa Claus has about the same non-properties as God. But that, is precisely the point. You can't prove a negative, so demanding someone comes up with some sort of proof to prove something doesn't exist is just ridiculous, that's not how it works. For someone big on logic you should know this by the way. I wasn't trying to disprove God, I can't. I just dismiss God with the same ease as you dismiss Santa Claus, as the proof for their existence is exactly equal. Where, in anything that I wrote, did I ask for someone to disprove God? I never once asked for such proof, and I never will, because it's unproveable. BOTH SIDES of the argument cannot be proven. The Santa Claus myth, as I've already explained, is traceable back to a source. The idea of the divine and religion cannot be. For the record: I am NOT trying to tell you you're wrong for being atheist. That was never my intent, and I'm frankly surprised that you've taken this in such a manner. My WHOLE point was you belittled Suvi (granted a fictional character, but the concept applies) for her beliefs, in stating "...it's laughable and that has to pass for a scientist? Ugh." MANY renowned scientists were religious, and many religious figured respected science and logic. They are not mutually exclusive. And completely dismissing someone for their personal beliefs is frankly, rather disgusting behavior. Whatever you personally believe, GREAT! If it works for you, GO WITH IT. But God cannot be proven, so Christians trying to argue for that are making a logical mistake. By the same token, God cannot be DISproven, so people trying to argue THAT are making logical errors. And both sides of said arguement are equally ridiculous. Just because the origin is unknown this somehow protects religion from reality? Really? So if you just make up something vague enough, with an origin too obscure to determine, you should always get respect for your position? No. Fuck that. That's just lending credence to finding as much bogus properties as a person can think of. And 'God doesn't exist' is not the same claim as 'God exists'. The first claim can't be proven, even if true. The second claim can be proven if true and would automacially disprove the first statement. Everything is dependent on bringing forth proof of the latter claim: and there is none of it. The 'properties' of God are identical to the properties of something that doesn't exist. As for the whole 'many renowned scientists were religious' thing: yeah, wow, what a surprise. The world is only barely waking up from the delusion of God. Everyone was religious before. Try some modern numbers, where 95% or something of biologists don't believe in God, and about the same amount of physicists. You know, the scientists that actually deal with 'creation'.
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Post by VanSinn on Apr 28, 2017 13:21:54 GMT
The hypocrisy is real.
Who would have thought that in a conversation between atheists and a religious person the religious one would be the reasonable one.
I respect your right to believe there is no God, and yet people who believe in a God not afforded the same respect in reverse. And no, by this I do not mean by all atheists. Some of you have an open mind, and a willingness to believe that you may, just in fact, not know everything there is to know about the Universe and how it was formed and operates.
That being said, I think I'm done here.
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Post by medaifan on May 10, 2017 6:11:51 GMT
If there is a God I hope he/she is okay with me and Suvi... a hell world romance arc is not what I had in mind for our future.
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Post by kalasaurus on May 10, 2017 15:34:10 GMT
Suvi is respectful about Ryder disagreeing with her (I've tried both dialogues), and the emails and codex afterwards reflect that she either:
A) Appreciates finding someone who agrees with her. Or B ) Respects your stance and appreciated the chance for debate.
I considered doing a romance with a Ryder who disagreed, but found her beliefs and how she balances her faith and background as a scientist interesting *shrug*. The lack of content is kind of a deterrent, but I'm stuck on deciding between Suvi or Peebee this playthrough.
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Post by smellycatbutts on May 11, 2017 20:28:31 GMT
The hypocrisy is real. Who would have thought that in a conversation between atheists and a religious person the religious one would be the reasonable one. I respect your right to believe there is no God, and yet people who believe in a God not afforded the same respect in reverse. And no, by this I do not mean by all atheists. Some of you have an open mind, and a willingness to believe that you may, just in fact, not know everything there is to know about the Universe and how it was formed and operates. That being said, I think I'm done here. Actually, I'm pretty sure the opposite is true: religious people by and large oppress those who hold no religious beliefs/different beliefs = no respect.
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Post by Serza on May 12, 2017 19:31:48 GMT
Is that me, or did a Suvi-related thread just grow into a religious argument?
Because SERIOUSLY. IT'S SUVI. THERE HARDLY IS ANYTHING THAT'D BE MORE UNLIKE SUVI THAN ARGUING.
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Post by decafhigh on May 13, 2017 0:55:29 GMT
Came here to read about Suvi. Found a bunch of fascist knuckle-draggers claiming they know the secrets of the universe and to hell (oops guess they wouldn't use that wording) with anyone that thinks differently. /leavesthread
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Post by OdanUrr on May 13, 2017 2:33:27 GMT
It's probably one of the more down-to-earth romances and I like that about it.
Also, the accent. The accent is... I mean, it's not the only thing, but...uhhh...
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Post by fizzypop on May 13, 2017 3:11:04 GMT
The burden of proof is not on the atheist side. Just saying. :amirite: If you're gonna make a flat claim, "There is no God," the burden of proof is on you. If you're gonna make a flat claim, "There IS a God," the burden of proof for THAT claim is on you. Neither side can "prove" their assertion. Thus, it takes just as much "faith" to believe in NO God as it takes to believe in one. You are telling other people to read up on how to debate, but like you committed the ultimate debating sin. That's not how the burden of proof works and its not useful in any context in this situation. The claim has to be in dispute. If no one here disputes it then there is no burden of proof. You can't dispute something unless you are going to claim that God does exist. So are you going to claim that? It seems like to me you are basically trying to play devils advocate which is just code word for "I don't have any real reason to say anything here, but I am going too anyways because WHY NOT?" and no one likes a devil's advocate. On top of that burden of proof generally lies with whoever is going against *perceived* status quo. That is going to depend wildly on the community (going to point out doesn't seem to be in your favor). What is considered proof depends on the conventions. Those depend on the community and context of the argument. Which as I said means the perceived status quo generally makes those determinations. That is what determines what evidence is accepted or not. The burden of proof is often flung by philosophical feel goods on the internet who want to pretend they are intellectual and yet no nothing about it. So right now acceptance for evidence would be on whoever has the contrary opinion to the community and the community gets to decide the standard to which the burden of proof needs to be met. They get to determine even what evidence is accepted. That's what the burden of proof really means. What you are talking about is God being real/not real is a logical fallacy. You seem to be mixing up burden of proof with a logical fallacy often associated with it. That you cannot assume something is true simply because there is no evidence against it and you cannot simply assume something is false because it hasn't been proven. That's the only thing that makes sense to me anyways. You got them mixed up. So anyway, burden of proof has no meaning for these sorts of debates because they are purely philosophical without any way of ever resolving them because there is no way that evidence will be accepted. So invoking it is stupid and there is even more stupidity when you factor in more modern thinking below. Faith doesn't work that way and that's not how its defined. There is a reason faith is defined within religion because it is based on no actual evidence and even CONTRARY to evidence. If people actually believe anything in any bible happened they are displaying faith because we have real life evidence these events didn't happen. The flooding for example? We have scientific evidence there was no such "massive flood". The bible has the first human living far beyond a capable lifespan for any human even today. It isn't hard to discredit those writings. Atheism doesn't require faith because there is actual evidence against a God. It isn't absolute, but nothing can be. Not even the concept of something we know for a fact like gravity. We can't physically see it and how it works in space is completely different in how it works on earth, but we know it exists. We have enough evidence to claim that. We also have enough evidence to claim there isn't a god, but anyone who thinks otherwise is going to discredit it all because that's what their faith teaches them. This is coming from someone who is not an atheist. The science has way more points on their side and until that outweighs it, it is disingenuous to claim that saying there is no god is displaying faith. That's not how faith is defined or even termed. Burden of proof is useful for things that can be quantified or actually proven with reasonable people who aren't going to say "na-uh! because faith!" at everything. Burden of proof has no use in the majority of philosophical debates and questions because at the end of the day evidence doesn't matter and can be hand waved. Debating with philosophy majors is worse than getting hydrochloric acid on you because you can come up with evidence that proves their stupid ideas false they'll find another way to justify it. Ultimate goal moving posters. Faith and philosophy are actually pretty alike now that I think about it....lol.
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