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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Sept 25, 2020 19:47:18 GMT
Good point. Most or all of them are, and this would shake that worldview.I mean, that's not all on Loghain, since Teagan's the one who refused to put off any asking-of-pointed-questions until after the Blight. But that's a digression. You're right. That could have been a perfect storm situation that led to very bad places.
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Post by Buckeldemon on Sept 26, 2020 3:03:03 GMT
I mean, that's not all on Loghain, since Teagan's the one who refused to put off any asking-of-pointed-questions until after the Blight. But that's a digression. I'm not sure if you mean this ironically. I mean, when Logain adresses the Landsmeet and demands more troops, I don't think Teagan is besides the point. "You want more troops? Didn't you just took an army south and lost it down there, except for your loyal elite?"
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Sept 26, 2020 4:00:27 GMT
I mean, that's not all on Loghain, since Teagan's the one who refused to put off any asking-of-pointed-questions until after the Blight. But that's a digression. I'm not sure if you mean this ironically. I mean, when Logain adresses the Landsmeet and demands more troops, I don't think Teagan is besides the point. "You want more troops? Didn't you just took an army south and lost it down there, except for your loyal elite?" He didn't think Loghain had done it out of incompetence, as far as I could tell. He'd thought Loghain had done it to murder Cailan. Which was a legitimate thing to have pointed questions about, but should have taken a backseat to the Blight.
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 26, 2020 19:35:06 GMT
In case of Ferelden... well, Darkspawn encounter? I mean, I do agree with your assesment that the Chantry would try to pull "duty" on the local nobles, but in Ferelden, these are busy killing each other, thanks Loghain. Actually the Chantry are equally annoying at the Landsmeet. The only thing the Reverend Mother is complaining about is that Loghain got in the way of a Templar performing his holy duty and only supports the Hero if you bring this up or give her the opportunity to. Loghain selling elves into slavery. Apparently the Reverend Mother had no problem with that. Betraying his King, no problem. Encouraging the rogue mage to poison Arl Eamon on his behalf, no problem. Letting the country get overrun with darkspawn whilst he plays politics, no problem. Whereas that Templar in Lothering got it exactly right. Why are they fighting over the house when it is burning down around them? The Chantry and Templars there were actually doing the right thing, helping the refugees who had been abandoned by their Bann who had left with Loghain.
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Post by Buckeldemon on Sept 27, 2020 0:58:58 GMT
I'm not sure if you mean this ironically. I mean, when Logain adresses the Landsmeet and demands more troops, I don't think Teagan is besides the point. "You want more troops? Didn't you just took an army south and lost it down there, except for your loyal elite?" He didn't think Loghain had done it out of incompetence, as far as I could tell. He'd thought Loghain had done it to murder Cailan. Which was a legitimate thing to have pointed questions about, but should have taken a backseat to the Blight. I'm pretty insensitive to the nuances of Ferelden's politics it seems. Never got why Anora lets daddy mess around with politics if she's as good and experienced with it as she wants us to believe. In case of Ferelden... well, Darkspawn encounter? I mean, I do agree with your assesment that the Chantry would try to pull "duty" on the local nobles, but in Ferelden, these are busy killing each other, thanks Loghain. Actually the Chantry are equally annoying at the Landsmeet. The only thing the Reverend Mother is complaining about is that Loghain got in the way of a Templar performing his holy duty and only supports the Hero if you bring this up or give her the opportunity to. Loghain selling elves into slavery. Apparently the Reverend Mother had no problem with that. Betraying his King, no problem. Encouraging the rogue mage to poison Arl Eamon on his behalf, no problem. Letting the country get overrun with darkspawn whilst he plays politics, no problem. Whereas that Templar in Lothering got it exactly right. Why are they fighting over the house when it is burning down around them? The Chantry and Templars there were actually doing the right thing, helping the refugees who had been abandoned by their Bann who had left with Loghain. No objection about a blood mage? Oo-kay. Nobody cares out elves is usual, but that's odd.Can't remember if that is the same RM as at Ostagar, because that one was clearly a dumb*ss, raging at Uldred purely out of prejudice. Though that seems popular, given how many times Cullen puts up a similar tantrum and we are forced to justify ourselves.
Your post here reminds me of the exchange from the Anders thread. Moving a copy for reference. You pointed out the "informal" connection between the Chantry and nobility plus the presence of a cleric at the Landsmeet. Wasn't there some cleric around for the end-game coronation as well? I cannot remember.[/div]
My pessimistic assumption? The cause needs an enemy to cover up all the puppy kicking. I tend to ask myself ever since DAO why we've never seen a pride demon preying on high-level clerics or templars. Though given how a certain Lord Seeker was usually frothing at his mouth whenever he did not got what he wanted in the few excerpts of Asunder I read the other day, rage demon might qualify for some templars.
That's Ser Mhemet, right? Well, it seems as if genocide is totally okay as long as hits infidels. That seems to be usual Chantry morals. Not that surprising if one has a "convert the world" goal.
Honestly, I would like a glimpse into the whole Ander andrastian perspective. According to Genitivi, they are pretty fanatical. I wonder how they could trump what the south does, so I'm inclined to think that they are just different from the orlesian south. Wouldn't be the first time Genitivi mouths off about stuff that he cannot grasp.
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 27, 2020 10:25:03 GMT
Honestly, I would like a glimpse into the whole Ander andrastian perspective. According to Genitivi, they are pretty fanatical. I wonder how they could trump what the south does, so I'm inclined to think that they are just different from the orlesian south. Wouldn't be the first time Genitivi mouths off about stuff that he cannot grasp. Well I do wonder if the reason Anders tries so hard to reconcile the Andrastrian faith with mage freedom rather than just rejecting it wholesale is because the faith itself was drummed into him from an early age by his father. He says in Awakening how he was always a good little mage who said his prayers. In DAO I don't recall my Surana being constantly encouraged to pray to the Maker, even though some mages clearly do. Also you can be devoted to the Maker and yet reject the Chantry, which is what the Ash Warriors did. The Anderfels originally converted because Drakon rode in and saved them from the 2nd Blight and no doubt they did feel the Maker had been their salvation but they clearly got the difference between the Maker and the Holy Orlesian Empire that had annexed them because thirty years later, whilst the Blight was still in full swing, they declared independence from Orlais whilst still maintaining their faith in the Maker. So it is entirely possible they have their own brand of Andrastrianism but probably are pretty tough on the mage issue considering they share a border with Tevinter. Not that any Magister in his right mind would really want to bother with conquering the Anderfels again. What would anyone want with a blight ravaged landscape and a group of surely natives? After all, you would think Corypheus could have taken it over easily given his control over the Wardens but clearly he didn't want it either.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Sept 27, 2020 21:02:12 GMT
Honestly, I would like a glimpse into the whole Ander andrastian perspective. According to Genitivi, they are pretty fanatical. I wonder how they could trump what the south does, so I'm inclined to think that they are just different from the orlesian south. Wouldn't be the first time Genitivi mouths off about stuff that he cannot grasp. Well I do wonder if the reason Anders tries so hard to reconcile the Andrastrian faith with mage freedom rather than just rejecting it wholesale is because the faith itself was drummed into him from an early age by his father. He says in Awakening how he was always a good little mage who said his prayers. In DAO I don't recall my Surana being constantly encouraged to pray to the Maker, even though some mages clearly do. I'd thought that was just because he knew his audience, and was trying to counter the Chantry's argument that Andraste wanted the Circles in place without turning off large swathes of that audience... but this idea makes sense too. He didn't think Loghain had done it out of incompetence, as far as I could tell. He'd thought Loghain had done it to murder Cailan. Which was a legitimate thing to have pointed questions about, but should have taken a backseat to the Blight. I'm pretty insensitive to the nuances of Ferelden's politics it seems. Never got why Anora lets daddy mess around with politics if she's as good and experienced with it as she wants us to believe. The stated reason is that she's not a wartime leader, and that Loghain has led the country through a war before. Although given Loghain's abject failure at talking Teagan down, maybe she should have kept up the political parts of the work. Maybe it would have come to civil war anyway, but Loghain's command-style wasn't helping matters.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 27, 2020 21:59:52 GMT
Well I do wonder if the reason Anders tries so hard to reconcile the Andrastrian faith with mage freedom rather than just rejecting it wholesale is because the faith itself was drummed into him from an early age by his father. He says in Awakening how he was always a good little mage who said his prayers. In DAO I don't recall my Surana being constantly encouraged to pray to the Maker, even though some mages clearly do. I'd thought that was just because he knew his audience, and was trying to counter the Chantry's argument that Andraste wanted the Circles in place without turning off large swathes of that audience... but this idea makes sense too. I'm pretty insensitive to the nuances of Ferelden's politics it seems. Never got why Anora lets daddy mess around with politics if she's as good and experienced with it as she wants us to believe. The stated reason is that she's not a wartime leader, and that Loghain has led the country through a war before. Although given Loghain's abject failure at talking Teagan down, maybe she should have kept up the political parts of the work. Maybe it would have come to civil war anyway, but Loghain's command-style wasn't helping matters. This also makes sense... or rather would make sense, if he wouldn't always refer to the Maker, and not only in his manifestos, but randomly: for example about the spirits, who are "the Maker's first children"; and "It is the Maker who creates mages. The Chantry was built by men, and it can be brought down by them." and at Gallows: "We can build a world where no ever dies for being how the Maker created them...” and "May the Maker bring us victory, or everything is meaningless" And Awakening: He believes the Maker and Andraste, and angry at the Chantry, they twist Andraste's words to lock the mages.
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 28, 2020 17:26:41 GMT
He believes the Maker and Andraste, and angry at the Chantry, they twist Andraste's words to lock the mages. Which is why I feel that Anders is pretty much on the same page as me with regard to the faith. My Hawke was happy to believe in the Maker but not the Chantry's version of him or the various interpretations they have put on Andraste's words which disadvantage certain groups, particularly the mages. According to Cassandra, Varric is the same and so were the Ash Warriors of Ferelden in that they believe in the Maker but reject the Chantry. The problem is, of course, that the Chantry's twisting of Andraste's words doesn't really impact on non-mages. If Varric's freedoms were curtailed, I'm sure he would take far more of an active part in criticising the Chantry and their teaching.
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Post by kalreegar on Oct 8, 2020 8:50:57 GMT
I'm watching the boys. Is anyone else watching it? Great TV series. It paints reality EXACTLY as I believe it would be in Thedas in the presence of free and out of control mages (and as it was at the time of the evanuris/ancient tevinter)
The same pros and cons.
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Post by fylimar on Oct 8, 2020 9:50:53 GMT
I'm watching the boys. Is anyone else watching it? Great TV series. It paints reality EXACTLY as I believe it would be in Thedas in the presence of free and out of control mages (and as it was at the time of the evanuris/ancient tevinter) The same pros and cons. I saw The Boys - good show btw.
But I don't agree, that the supes there can be compared to the mages of Thedas. For one thing: mages can be killed, supes like Homelander are nearly unkillable (at least they haven't found anything to kill him with). So mages are much more prone to consequences than thesupes in The Boys. Second: The supes - at least the once working for Vault, are constantly manipulated and they are told, they are the best and most important people in the world. If mages are living among normal people - which probably would be the norm in Thedas, then they are more likely to develope more normally than the supes, who are living literally in an ivory tower all the time - look at how Homelander crashed that demo. He isn't able to predict peoples behavior nor can he interact normally with other people. Imo if mages are free and living alongside other people, they will develope like most people - that does mean, that there will be assholes among them, but also nice people.
And no one said, that you can't keep seeker and/or templer to hunt down mages that violate the law - so another difference: There is noone, who is able to keep the supes in check, they are much too powerful. A well tought templar can stand against a mage on the other hand. So Thedas can have saveguards, while the universe of The Boys is pretty much at the mercy of supes atm.
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Post by kalreegar on Oct 8, 2020 11:32:32 GMT
I'm watching the boys. Is anyone else watching it? Great TV series. It paints reality EXACTLY as I believe it would be in Thedas in the presence of free and out of control mages (and as it was at the time of the evanuris/ancient tevinter) The same pros and cons. I saw The Boys - good show btw.
But I don't agree, that the supes there can be compared to the mages of Thedas. For one thing: mages can be killed, supes like Homelander are nearly unkillable (at least they haven't found anything to kill him with). So mages are much more prone to consequences than thesupes in The Boys. Second: The supes - at least the once working for Vault, are constantly manipulated and they are told, they are the best and most important people in the world. If mages are living among normal people - which probably would be the norm in Thedas, then they are more likely to develope more normally than the supes, who are living literally in an ivory tower all the time - look at how Homelander crashed that demo. He isn't able to predict peoples behavior nor can he interact normally with other people. Imo if mages are free and living alongside other people, they will develope like most people - that does mean, that there will be assholes among them, but also nice people.
And no one said, that you can't keep seeker and/or templer to hunt down mages that violate the law - so another difference: There is noone, who is able to keep the supes in check, they are much too powerful. A well tought templar can stand against a mage on the other hand. So Thedas can have saveguards, while the universe of The Boys is pretty much at the mercy of supes atm.
1) but ordinary supes can be killed too. Homelander and the Seven would be the analogue of an evanuris, the top-class mages. 2) Some of them would be somehow nice and compassionate, other would be total ass, other grey. But it's very likely that the most powerful would start a dinasty (and so their children/pupils would grew up in an ivory tower), enjoy living in a palace/tower far away from the rest of the common people etc. After a few generation, a new upper class (mages) will inevitably rise. 3) templars and seeeker are effective as long as the large majority of mages are "castrated" and prevented from joining forces. Once a dozen of them reach the solas / flemeth / elgar'nan level ... there is little you can do, or at least it is very very difficult. They become like the Seven. you just have to hope they limit each other. you just have to hope they limit each other. To find a Starlight brave and powerful enough (mythal)
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Post by fylimar on Oct 8, 2020 12:02:02 GMT
I think the risk of a mage becoming incredible powerful and an asshole is there, even if they are governed, maybe even more, because they want to break out and be free - look at what happened at the Kirkwall circle. Morrigan and Merrill on the other hand did not become abominations and they live outside of circles - and don't take it lightly that I use those two as examples, because I really don't like them much, but the truth is, they lived free and were relatively normal (well apart from Morrigans mother issues and the thing with OGB) . And we have examples of societies that have their mages in their mids and it worked, like the Dalish(and don't say 3 mages rule. The clans, we encountered so far didn't have that rule), the Avvar, Rivain. I don't see mages running amok there. gervaise21 with her deep lore knowledge probably can come up with more examples. The Seven became as they are because of a lack of social engagement (Homeland er) and a big sense of entitlement that is purposely pushed by Vault.
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Post by kalreegar on Oct 8, 2020 13:17:07 GMT
Seven became as they are because of a lack of social engagement (Homeland er) and a big sense of entitlement that is purposely pushed by Vault. You're very optimist. I believe that whoever has the power, enjoys abusing it. It is too easy, and there is much to gain and little to lose (see the templars in the Circles...). Whoever does not do it... is the exception. The Seven are the Seven because that's human nature.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 8, 2020 13:27:00 GMT
Seven became as they are because of a lack of social engagement (Homeland er) and a big sense of entitlement that is purposely pushed by Vault. You're very optimist. I believe that whoever has the power, enjoys abusing it. It is too easy, and there is much to gain and little to lose (see the templars in the Circles...). Whoever does not do it... is the exception. The Seven are the Seven because that's human nature. Optimist or not, to imprison people just because they're able to cause problems, is a sin. Wrong, because we can imprison everyone according to this. Again: Meredith, a non-mage animated sculptures with her paranoia. It was magic? Oh, of course! The whole world is permeated with magic. Nothing and nobody is safe... and will not. They should live with this danger, but those prisons aren't the solution of this problem.
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Post by kalreegar on Oct 8, 2020 13:35:56 GMT
You're very optimist. I believe that whoever has the power, enjoys abusing it. It is too easy, and there is much to gain and little to lose (see the templars in the Circles...). Whoever does not do it... is the exception. The Seven are the Seven because that's human nature. Optimist or not, to imprison people just because they're able to cause problems, is a sin. Wrong, because we can imprison everyone according to this. Again: Meredith, a non-mage animated sculptures with her paranoia. It was magic? Oh, of course! The whole world is permeated with magic. Nothing and nobody is safe... and will not. They should live with this danger, but those prisons aren't the solution of this problem. Since your nails will grow back anyway, why cut them?
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Post by Catilina on Oct 8, 2020 13:41:28 GMT
Optimist or not, to imprison people just because they're able to cause problems, is a sin. Wrong, because we can imprison everyone according to this. Again: Meredith, a non-mage animated sculptures with her paranoia. It was magic? Oh, of course! The whole world is permeated with magic. Nothing and nobody is safe... and will not. They should live with this danger, but those prisons aren't the solution of this problem. Since your nails will grow back anyway, why cut them? This is not the answer to this problem.
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Post by fylimar on Oct 8, 2020 13:51:26 GMT
Seven became as they are because of a lack of social engagement (Homeland er) and a big sense of entitlement that is purposely pushed by Vault. You're very optimist. I believe that whoever has the power, enjoys abusing it. It is too easy, and there is much to gain and little to lose (see the templars in the Circles...). Whoever does not do it... is the exception. The Seven are the Seven because that's human nature.
To quote a favorite Qunari (now Tal Vashot) of mine: people are people. There will always be the ones, that abuse their power and there will be the ones, working to make things better. I'm not really optimistic as far as humankind is concerned in general, but I do think, that people can be better or worse depending on what they experiencing - thus the example with the Seven.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 8, 2020 18:19:38 GMT
I believe that whoever has the power, enjoys abusing it. It is too easy, and there is much to gain and little to lose (see the templars in the Circles...). Exactly, so it is problem of human nature (or elven or whatever) and not simply confined to those with magic. The Orlesian nobility abuse their power, the Chevaliers doubly so. It is impossible for commoners to get justice in Orlais, for an elf doubly so (see Masked Empire). The problem actually comes from thinking you have some inherent right to rule. Now in Ferelden they have a different attitude to nobility. It is a job and if you don't do it right the Freeholders can replace you. Nobles do not possess land that people work for them, the Freeholders own the land that the noble protects. Unfortunately the writers have largely ignored their own lore in DAI. I was constantly asking what the nobles were doing in Ferelden that the Inquisition was having to step in to help people so much. At least Cullen understood this, because in the War Table mission where some noble is asking us to shift the refugees off "his" land, Cullen recommends helping the refugees instead. Anyway, I digress from the point, which is that it is the system of governance that ensures no one groups lords it over the rest. Interestingly, it is noticeable that both Tevinter and Orlais used state religion to invest power in their ruling elite and they also both have empire building aspirations. This was also true of the Evanuris. Other nations and groups, like Rivain, the Avvar, and the Dalish, have mages in positions of seniority offering guidance but they don't rule with absolute power. That is because their society is structured differently. In the Dales the Keepers didn't rule, they were the lore-keepers and thus filled very much the same position as the Rivaini wise woman or the Avvar Augur. It seems likely that a similar system probably existed in Andraste's time. If you accept that she was a mage, then she worked alongside her non-mage husband and when she encountered the Maker she was trying to find a god willing to help her people, very much in the vein of the Avvar, who are after all an offshoot of the Alamaari. The vast majority of mages are actually not that powerful, could be allowed to live in the community without really endangering them and if they stepped out of line, could be easily dealt with. However, they would also be able to help their communities against non-mages who abuse their power. Which I think is the real reason the Chantry locked up commoner mages in Orlais, the protect the interests of the corrupt nobility. Then they justified it with religious texts and imposed it on the rest of the faithful as well. Not all mages wish to lord it over their communities so why should an entire group of people be condemned because of a few assholes?
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Post by phoray on Oct 11, 2020 23:15:25 GMT
Since your nails will grow back anyway, why cut them? Are you saying the solution to the mages is to simply regularly cull them? ala Snowpeircer.
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Post by kalreegar on Oct 12, 2020 8:45:31 GMT
Since your nails will grow back anyway, why cut them? Are you saying the solution to the mages is to simply regularly cull them? ala Snowpeircer. no, I'm saying that A possible solution (which has been proven to work for, say, 600 years, so it's empirically validated) is the Circle system. keep as many mages under surveillance as possible, in a state of awe, prevent them from ganging up, from organising themselves, from increasing their powers "beyond guard levels" and make the access to certain practices as difficult as possible (blood magic). There will always be those who escape the net, but as long as they remain a minority, there should be no particular problems. The fact that there are rebellions, mistakes, rule violations and abuses is irrelevant. These are common elements of any normative-coercive system (i.e. any judicial system, including the most advanced). We try to minimize and correct them, every time, with effort, and then again, and again, but there is no need to revolutionize everything, start from scratch, jump into the void (as Flemeth recommends). You can say: abuses and mistakes have reached the breaking point. Fine, but we go back to the previous analysis. The only known macro-alternative to the system of circles (south thedas) is the tevinter (north thedas), or evanuris. Like the boys but with magic instead of superpowers. You may or may not like it, it subjective. I don't like it, personally. I prefer good old ferelden and good old orlais. And unless you're a magician, nobody should like it, really. There are no other known working systems. There is that of the qunari, yeah... but I don't think it is an alternative that someone might like it As for other working systems... dalish, avar, rivain, etc... they are systems that are limited to small semi-tribal groups and/or that are intrinsically linked to thousand-year-old traditions. They are linked to a particular way of life, to a particular vision of the world, unique beliefs. As such. they are not "exportable". The sense of honour and duty that the Japanese had and still have works very well, and so does the system of rules that has developed around it. But it works for them, because they are immersed in a certain socio-historical-cultural context. You cannot "export" this system of rules, values and traditions everywhere. In Italy, in Brazil, in the USA, Nigeria, Russia... it simply wouldn't work. So, the millenary history of thedas teaches two things about mages: on a general level, either you keep them submissive, under control, or sooner or later, they take absolute power. It's really very simple. So: there are mistakes and abuses, but they are an inevitable externality of the system. I am to reduce them to a minimum, not risk ending up in an even more abusive and dangerous system. I mean... nothing against dethroning Meredith, if Elthina had ordered Hawke to break into the gallows, declare mereditj under arrest and in case of resistance behead her on the spot, I would have gladly done it; I would have seriously considered to side with Thrask, if his conspiracy had been handled differently. Moreover, even Vivienne, when refounding the circles, guarantees the magicians unprecedented freedom and responsibility (but always with the Templars as a safeguard mechanism) and allows the existence of semi-autonomous organisations such as the Enchanter college. This is a good system. This is the way. But the abolition of circles? Everybody free and go, self-managing, good night and good luck? I mean, come on. There are no elements to think that it can work, if not naive optimism in human nature. On the contrary, there are several factual elements to think that it doesn't work at all. But hey, I'm not saying that this vision is necessarily, 100%, true. I just believe that it is the one that most reflects, from a probabilistic point of view, the historical trends of thedas. But historical trends are not scientific law, so yeah, if mages want so desperatly to explore a different path, free to try. Others will be free to try to stop them. My characters simply tend to have a prudent and conservative attitude. Also as for the gameplay, now that I think about it (I almost always choose tank)
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Post by Buckeldemon on Oct 12, 2020 11:48:40 GMT
There are no other known working systems. There is that of the qunari, yeah... but I don't think it is an alternative that someone might like it Why not? If... The fact that there are rebellions, mistakes, rule violations and abuses is irrelevant. ... then why not just adopting Qunari methods as well?
Moreover, even Vivienne, when refounding the circles, guarantees the magicians unprecedented freedom and responsibility (but always with the Templars as a safeguard mechanism) and allows the existence of semi-autonomous organisations such as the Enchanter college. To me, the epilogue suggests that these templars are controlled by her personally. Beforehand, they were apparently sufficiently autonomous to break away once high level clerics just took their services for granted. For the CoE, she barely allows that past Trespasser. Otherwise it is attacked and dissolved. Understandable from Viv's perspective as even she is not immune to the "Chantry has all the answers, everything else shit/heresy" that was drilled into her head from young age as well.
But historical trends are not scientific law, so yeah, if mages want so desperatly to explore a different path, free to try. Others will be free to try to stop them. And will theses mages then be free to stop the stoppers?
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Post by kalreegar on Oct 12, 2020 12:20:55 GMT
Of course. The bitter clash of thesis and antithesis is the very soul of history. And it may result in a new way, the synthesis, that incorporates, and transcends, both sides. "Because I'm not a monster. If they must be costrained, I'd rather they are costruire in comfort." Seriously. The qunari method seems to me excessively cruel and unnecessarily severe. As well as ser alrik's plan or meredith's methods. A good balance of interests must be sought between the "human rights" of mages and the security needs of society. The CoE is attacked and dissolved? Really? In which epilogues?
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Post by Catilina on Oct 12, 2020 12:31:49 GMT
Of course. The bitter clash of thesis and antithesis is the very soul of history. And it may result in a new way, the synthesis, that incorporates, and transcends, both sides. "Because I'm not a monster. If they must be costrained, I'd rather they are costruire in comfort." Seriously. The qunari method seems to me excessively cruel and unnecessarily severe. As well as ser alrik's plan or meredith's methods. A good balance of interests must be sought between the "human rights" of mages and the security needs of society. The CoE is attacked and dissolved? Really? In which epilogues? There's no "good balance". To separate them in this way is not safe (and I don't think so it can work on any way in Thedas – Thedas is full of magic...), but dangerous rather. We saw it.
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Post by kalreegar on Oct 12, 2020 12:49:34 GMT
I think that you point is invalid. For every rule or limitation or imposition, there is always someone who breaks it, someone who rebels, someone who cannot stand i5 and creates problems. This does not mean that the rule/limitation is unjust / unnecessary or that, if there was no rule, there would be no problem. Btw.. again.. we "saw it", yes. 3 times. Evanuris, old tevinter, modern tevinter. Redcliffe mess too. The warden stupid mages and their stupid plans. No good balance there Really, the best balance is (theoretically) a functioning, fair circle where the Templars are not omnipotent and the mages have more individual responsibilities and rights/freedom.
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