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Post by witchcocktor on Jun 15, 2019 18:58:07 GMT
I mean yeah as a cis person I don't really get what's so terribly offensive about it. If there were two leather dudes fisting each other to '' represent '' gays in a poster, idk it's just a poster in the game, whatever. I'm not telling anyone how to feel, but sometimes it's good to think, how big of a deal is this really. How much does this really affect anything in the world.
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Post by azarhal on Jun 15, 2019 19:31:45 GMT
So, could anyone explain to me why this particular poster is even considered controversial? It's a big visible phallus (covered by cloth) on a poster. If the rest of the character didn't have a feminine appearance, it would have caused a scandal anyway, it would have just have been a different group complaining about it. If the poster was 100% a women in tight clothing, nobody would have raised an eyebrow though.
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Post by aglomeracja on Jun 15, 2019 19:47:39 GMT
So, could anyone explain to me why this particular poster is even considered controversial? It's a big visible phallus (covered by cloth) on a poster. If the rest of the character didn't have a feminine appearance, it would have caused a scandal anyway, it would have just have been a different group complaining about it. If the poster was 100% a women in tight clothing, nobody would have raised an eyebrow though. Ok, but what is the problem with that exactly? And I mean what exactly is the problem for people who actually do claim that there is a problem.
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Post by cankiie on Jun 15, 2019 19:51:19 GMT
Personally I don't have a problem with representation in and of itself. I remember back on the old BSN there were people who would literally argue that having one black character or one gay character was enough and that any more than that was just diversity for the sake of meeting a corporate mandated quota. People who couldn't conceive of the idea that the people making these games might actually want to tell stories about people other than straight white dudes. I also think this illustrates leldra's point perfectly. The outrage culture is extremely counter-productive because what comes with it, which is a lot of bullying of creators, of the big industry guys, of everyone including "cis straight white men". Because of that it have only ended up reinforcing the idea to many that the only reason these "marginalised" groups are now represented is because it is a corporate mandated quota, and not just because the creators wanted to tell that story. What else did they expect when they basically "holds a gun" to someone's head? It is being perceived as peer-pressure, it is perceived as bullying of creators. The idea of representation is overall weird to me. But then again, I did grow up with disney and pixar cartoons.
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Post by KingDarious BBB on Jun 15, 2019 19:58:08 GMT
Here's a video I think does a good job of breaking down, CDPR intentions with the poster. Without getting into political nonsense like SJW's or Anti SJW's
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Post by cankiie on Jun 15, 2019 19:58:19 GMT
It's a big visible phallus (covered by cloth) on a poster. If the rest of the character didn't have a feminine appearance, it would have caused a scandal anyway, it would have just have been a different group complaining about it. If the poster was 100% a women in tight clothing, nobody would have raised an eyebrow though. Ok, but what is the problem with that exactly? And I mean what exactly is the problem for people who actually do claim that there is a problem. The problem I understand it. Is that some people consider it exploitation of trans people. Which is the point of the setting... corporations in control, exploit everything! I guess CDPR was succesful? I think I saw the post on twitter, mentioning that a year or two from now, such a poster would not be seen as exploitation by the same people who are outraged today, but it'll be seen as a company being inclusive! Anyway, for more details. I just think the outraged mob found it to be a problem, or as an additional jab at the trans community following a joke made by a once CDPR employee who made a "Did you just assume their gender?" joke a year back. The outraged mob have basically already coined CDPR a transphobic company because of that joke, even after an apology and the firing of that employee as the bullying continued, so when they show something akin to a trans person the outraged mob considers it another jab. Again, as is usually said. Do not... under any circumstance, apologise to them, do not at all take them seriously, etc etc. They fired a man or woman for a joke... for an innocent joke in an attempt to save their reputation which was not at all in danger. Makes me a little angry to think about. To be fair, this also further illustrates leldra's point of the outrage mob being extremely counter-productive. Not only will you see the inclusion of "representation" being bashed and killing off industries (Look: comics industry) but it also sets up those who directly opposes allegory to be huge successes.
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Post by KingDarious BBB on Jun 15, 2019 20:02:22 GMT
It's a big visible phallus (covered by cloth) on a poster. If the rest of the character didn't have a feminine appearance, it would have caused a scandal anyway, it would have just have been a different group complaining about it. If the poster was 100% a women in tight clothing, nobody would have raised an eyebrow though. Ok, but what is the problem with that exactly? And I mean what exactly is the problem for people who actually do claim that there is a problem. Apparently it's a trope used by straight men when fetishizing trans women.
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Post by cankiie on Jun 15, 2019 20:09:35 GMT
Ok, but what is the problem with that exactly? And I mean what exactly is the problem for people who actually do claim that there is a problem. Apparently it's a trope used by straight men when fetishizing trans women. Straight white* men. It is always only a problem when it is the straight white men.
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Post by aglomeracja on Jun 15, 2019 20:13:52 GMT
Ok, but what is the problem with that exactly? And I mean what exactly is the problem for people who actually do claim that there is a problem. Apparently it's a trope used by straight men when fetishizing trans women. Apparently it's a trope used by straight men when fetishizing trans women. Straight white* men. It is always only a problem when it is the straight white men. AFAIC straight men can't fetishize women with penises, because then they wouldn't be straight (by definition).
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Post by UutIVvdPw7END0Ef on Jun 15, 2019 20:38:12 GMT
www.gamestar.de/artikel/customization-in-cyberpunk-2077-apartment-koerper,3345372.html Apparently we won't have multiple apartments. Autotranslate: In the past there was talk, the one in the game can buy new apartments. But you can even decorate them and develop? The answer disappoints some, because apparently has CD Projekt Red which changed course: "V will have only an apartment and stay there. [...] You can have a place and can make different vehicles in your garage. "But there is unfortunately no way to decorate your apartment."
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Post by cankiie on Jun 15, 2019 20:46:26 GMT
AFAIC straight men can't fetishize women with penises, because then they wouldn't be straight (by definition). That is of course unless we differ between fetishizing and being attracted to. I mean, the two are both very different things. www.gamestar.de/artikel/customization-in-cyberpunk-2077-apartment-koerper,3345372.html Apparently we won't have multiple apartments. Autotranslate: In the past there was talk, the one in the game can buy new apartments. But you can even decorate them and develop? The answer disappoints some, because apparently has CD Projekt Red which changed course: "V will have only an apartment and stay there. [...] You can have a place and can make different vehicles in your garage. "But there is unfortunately no way to decorate your apartment." Oh, that is a shame. I mean, I do not care much for decorating but it would be awesome to be able to atleast set up trophies or something. Imagine in game achievements that unlocks trophies for you to set up in your apartment, would be fun. Would also be nice to be able to get different apartments, but again, can do without decorating. Well, it is not that big of a dealbreaker, at the very least. But I imagine if enough people ask for it they might just include it in a free dlc
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Post by KingDarious BBB on Jun 15, 2019 20:50:08 GMT
Apparently it's a trope used by straight men when fetishizing trans women. Straight white* men. It is always only a problem when it is the straight white men. It used be "only straight white men" it's not anymore. For example straight black men are often referred to as the weakest link in the black community. Black male privilege is now a thing.
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Post by wright1978 on Jun 15, 2019 20:51:59 GMT
www.gamestar.de/artikel/customization-in-cyberpunk-2077-apartment-koerper,3345372.html Apparently we won't have multiple apartments. Autotranslate: In the past there was talk, the one in the game can buy new apartments. But you can even decorate them and develop? The answer disappoints some, because apparently has CD Projekt Red which changed course: "V will have only an apartment and stay there. [...] You can have a place and can make different vehicles in your garage. "But there is unfortunately no way to decorate your apartment." Yeah not a big deal but would be nice if they added some customization at some point, even post launch
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 15, 2019 20:54:31 GMT
www.gamestar.de/artikel/customization-in-cyberpunk-2077-apartment-koerper,3345372.html Apparently we won't have multiple apartments. Autotranslate: In the past there was talk, the one in the game can buy new apartments. But you can even decorate them and develop? The answer disappoints some, because apparently has CD Projekt Red which changed course: "V will have only an apartment and stay there. [...] You can have a place and can make different vehicles in your garage. "But there is unfortunately no way to decorate your apartment." Well that's disappointing to hear. I was hoping we could customize it.
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Post by aglomeracja on Jun 15, 2019 20:59:32 GMT
AFAIC straight men can't fetishize women with penises, because then they wouldn't be straight (by definition). That is of course unless we differ between fetishizing and being attracted to. I mean, the two are both very different things. You made me check dictionary for "fetish" and "to fetishize". Turns out you can't fetishize penises attached to female bodies because "fetish" is an "object or nongenital part of the body, as a shoe, or hank of hair, that is repeatedly preferred for achieving sexual excitement. "
Anyway, this term is quite clearly tied to sexual attraction.
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Post by azarhal on Jun 15, 2019 21:03:01 GMT
www.gamestar.de/artikel/customization-in-cyberpunk-2077-apartment-koerper,3345372.html Apparently we won't have multiple apartments. Autotranslate: In the past there was talk, the one in the game can buy new apartments. But you can even decorate them and develop? The answer disappoints some, because apparently has CD Projekt Red which changed course: "V will have only an apartment and stay there. [...] You can have a place and can make different vehicles in your garage. "But there is unfortunately no way to decorate your apartment." Ah, the smell of features cut to make deadlines.
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Post by cankiie on Jun 15, 2019 21:04:39 GMT
It used be "only straight white men" it's not anymore. For example straight black men are often referred to as the weakest link in the black community. Black male privilege is now a thing. I suppose they faced too many obstructions when trying to victimise the black men too. You made me check dictionary for "fetish" and "to fetishize". Turns out you can't fetishize penises attached to female bodies because "fetish" is an "object or nongenital part of the body, as a shoe, or hank of hair, that is repeatedly preferred for achieving sexual excitement. "
Anyway, this term is quite clearly tied to sexual attraction. I should probably have looked up fetish instead of fetishize, yeah.
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Post by cankiie on Jun 15, 2019 21:06:54 GMT
Ah, the smell of features cut to make deadlines. Or maybe it is cut for a more notorious reason! EA-styled reasons, perhaps! I do not believe that though, it may indeed just be cut feature to fit in a deadline, but then they'll probably make it a free dlc. I believe minor things like that was also released as free dlc in the Witcher 3.
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ღ The Untitled
Just here for the cosplay
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Post by mousestalker on Jun 15, 2019 21:39:14 GMT
Lay off the straw man usage, please. Speak from your own point of view and avoid what you think people who disagree with you believe. You are almost certainly wrong. Quoting other forum posters and discussing their arguments is fine, as long as you refrain from insulting them.
Also, cyberpunk has long been about body modification. Please refer to the works of William Gibson and Tanith Lee. The body moddies can be quite extreme.
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Inactive Moderator
ღ The Untitled
Just here for the cosplay
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Post by mousestalker on Jun 15, 2019 21:40:44 GMT
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Post by Hier0phant on Jun 15, 2019 22:03:35 GMT
Straight white* men. It is always only a problem when it is the straight white men. It used be "only straight white men" it's not anymore. For example straight black men are often referred to as the weakest link in the black community. Black male privilege is now a thing. What the heck is black male privilege? Being statistically the most likely of all demographics to be a victim of assault and murder, receive the harshest prison sentences, interact with law enforcement officers, least likely to graduate high school, or attend and graduate college is not a privilege. Also after looking at the poster i'm not getting the outrage. The setting of Cyberpunk is a futuristic dystopian society dominated by unscrupulous corporations whose trans community was shaped by the setting's technological advancements, and the poster in question was marketed to a specific demographic within the setting's society not ours.
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Post by azarhal on Jun 16, 2019 1:07:43 GMT
Also after looking at the poster i'm not getting the outrage. The setting of Cyberpunk is a futuristic dystopian society dominated by unscrupulous corporations whose trans community was shaped by the setting's technological advancements, and the poster in question was marketed to a specific demographic within the setting's society not ours. Some people take everything in fictional settings to be about pushing an "agenda" in the real world by whomever made the setting and then being outraged so the "agenda" gets altered to whatever theirs (agenda) is. They only thing they are succeeding at with Cyberpunk is showing they do not understand the setting. It is supposed to depict a society that you hate: tyrannic corporation that rules everything, rampant crimes, sex and drugs as escapism, justice being an illusions, class/race* disparity, etc. The "power fantasy" in Cyberpunk is to rebel against and raise above the Order of Shithole. That's what the "punk" stand for, the cyber is for all the gadgets. *Class more than race, but Night City sub-areas have racial separations which suggest racial tensions still exist: Watson is Asian minus Japan, Westbrook is Japantown, Heywood is mostly Latino and Pacific has lots of Haitians. The Cyberpunk missing the point meme is so very accurate
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Post by Hier0phant on Jun 16, 2019 1:34:20 GMT
Also after looking at the poster i'm not getting the outrage. The setting of Cyberpunk is a futuristic dystopian society dominated by unscrupulous corporations whose trans community was shaped by the setting's technological advancements, and the poster in question was marketed to a specific demographic within the setting's society not ours. Some people take everything in fictional settings to be about pushing an "agenda" in the real world by whomever made the setting and then being outraged so the "agenda" gets altered to whatever theirs (agenda) is. They only thing they are succeeding at with Cyberpunk is showing they do not understand the setting. It is supposed to depict a society that you hate: tyrannic corporation that rules everything, rampant crimes, sex and drugs as escapism, justice being an illusions, class/race* disparity, etc. The "power fantasy" in Cyberpunk is to rebel against and raise above the Order of Shithole. That's what the "punk" stand for, the cyber is for all the gadgets. *Class more than race, but Night City sub-areas have racial separations which suggest racial tensions still exist: Watson is Asian minus Japan, Westbrook is Japantown, Heywood is mostly Latino and Pacific has lots of Haitians. The Cyberpunk missing the point meme is so very accurate Even though Mike has given them his blessing this has me worried, only a little, about CDPR's handling of the setting's tone and themes that you just highlighted. I'm having Nam flashbacks about Eidos completely missing the mark on the Deus Ex series' core themes with Mankind Divided.
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Post by cankiie on Jun 16, 2019 3:29:56 GMT
Even though Mike has given them his blessing this has me worried, only a little, about CDPR's handling of the setting's tone and themes that you just highlighted. I'm having Nam flashbacks about Eidos completely missing the mark on the Deus Ex series' core themes with Mankind Divided. If I am not mistakened a Cyberpunk developer pretty much had to make a statement on the poster, and his reasoning was basically what people have already been saying in this thread. That is the setting, corporates doing corporate shit to the max, you being one who ends up fighting that corporate shit. And as far as I am aware, Mike not only gave his blessing but has also been very much a part of the developement, the writing, etc. I am not too concerned about it. D Projekt's Marcin Iwiński divulged that Pondsmith's involvement in the video game development mostly focuses on the game world aspect and mechanics and his input, though constant, does not happen on a daily basis due to the distance between the parties. -
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Post by Ieldra on Jun 16, 2019 7:27:47 GMT
Also after looking at the poster i'm not getting the outrage. The setting of Cyberpunk is a futuristic dystopian society dominated by unscrupulous corporations whose trans community was shaped by the setting's technological advancements, and the poster in question was marketed to a specific demographic within the setting's society not ours. Some people take everything in fictional settings to be about pushing an "agenda" in the real world by whomever made the setting and then being outraged so the "agenda" gets altered to whatever theirs (agenda) is. They only thing they are succeeding at with Cyberpunk is showing they do not understand the setting. It is supposed to depict a society that you hate: tyrannic corporation that rules everything, rampant crimes, sex and drugs as escapism, justice being an illusions, class/race* disparity, etc. The "power fantasy" in Cyberpunk is to rebel against and raise above the Order of Shithole. That's what the "punk" stand for, the cyber is for all the gadgets. *Class more than race, but Night City sub-areas have racial separations which suggest racial tensions still exist: Watson is Asian minus Japan, Westbrook is Japantown, Heywood is mostly Latino and Pacific has lots of Haitians. The Cyberpunk missing the point meme is so very accurate LOL. This is a really good meme.
One wonders though: are there really people, in significant numbers, who look at a cyberpunk setting and say: "Cool, I want to live there"? I mean, yes, the gadgetry *is* fascinating, but within your typical cyberpunk setting it adds at least as much dependency as it gives you additional degrees of freedom. Are there really people who maintain such a stance, even in the face of the fact that the tendencies in the real world go exactly in the wrong direction for a positive development of transhumanist technology: things grow ever more interdependent rather than autonomous, and of course this development is driven by the corporations.
Perhaps the odd reaction of some people is based on a more general kind of misperception or doctrine: that you can't, or shouldn't, make a point with negative presentation, while it is, in fact, one of the most useful tools to make a point, since it appeals to people's natural empathy. Furthermore, if you want to tackle a social issue in your story, presenting a world where it doesn't exist is not the way to go about it.
BTW, who is this "Mike" some people were talking about?
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