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Post by midnight tea on Dec 23, 2018 22:38:38 GMT
I think that would be taking the "grey" morality a bit too far. Besides, since Solas doesn't object to the use of blood magic morally, who is to say he doesn't need all those elves in order that they can open him a way into the Fade by a blood magic ritual? I must admit that bit where he says he doesn't use it because it blocks the Fade was a bit odd considering bloodshed has always been the means in the past of thinning the Veil. Demons find it easier to come through at the sites of old battles or other places were death has been commonplace, like the city of Kirkwall and particularly the Gallows (it always seemed absurd to me the Chantry would choose an old slave prison for their Circle but may be the Senior Enchanters wanted to be there because the Veil was thinner). Corypheus and Co specifically used a massive blood sacrifice in other to open the way to the Black City but may be that was tapping into something different without them realising it. Last Flight introduced the idea that blood magic was tapping into something other than the Fade for its power, even though demons still seemed to be attracted to the blood mage. So may be what Corypheus' ritual did was specifically to open the path to the Black City, by-passing the Fade altogether. It's morally grey, but it strikes me as about the same level of awful as Shepard blowing up the Alpha Relay (and consequently killing 300,000 Batarians) in order to save the rest of the galaxy from the Reapers. Maybe I'm misremembering, but I don't think Solas said blood magic blocked the Fade, just that it more difficult to dream-walk? So maybe he works better where the Veil isn't thin (as it would be in Kirkwall), in order to delve deeper into his more Fade-y magics? Like some kind of adaptation to the Veil that's he's made for himself, adjusting to a world where the physical and magical worlds are separate. Well, the blood magic is a potent way to bring demons (so, basically the Fade) to this world - and it was used in copious amounts by Corypheus and the rest to tear open the Veil and allowed them to cross it and reach the Black city. I think it may have something more to do with... physicality or be stuck to one's physical form? Like, it enables demons to cross the Veil and obtain physical forms or maintain one's physical body when crossing the Fade? For Solas, who probably ventures far outside the confines of one's body when dream-walking it is probably a matter of either flexibility in the Fade... or maintaining what Cole has described as being 'in both places', seemingly at all times.
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Post by Lulupab on Dec 23, 2018 23:22:29 GMT
I think if the veil didn't exist, there would be little incentive to use blood magic, as infinite connection to fade is possible. One should not lack power if they need it.
But with veil in place, blood magic makes sense. To get the extra power you need by not relying on the fade, but the life forces in the waking world. I think the elves had little interest in looking for ways to draw power from life forces, when they could easily do so from the fade. But Tevinter always needed more power because the veil was very limiting. Hence invention of blood magic and its popularity in Tevinter.
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Post by midnight tea on Dec 23, 2018 23:58:58 GMT
I think if the veil didn't exist, there would be little incentive to use blood magic, as infinite connection to fade is possible. One should not lack power if they need it. But with veil in place, blood magic makes sense. To get the extra power you need by not relying on the fade, but the life forces in the waking world. I think the elves had little interest in looking for ways to draw power from life forces, when they could easily do so from the fade. But Tevinter always needed more power because the veil was very limiting. Hence invention of blood magic and its popularity in Tevinter. If the elves had little interest in looking for ways to draw power from life forces... why did they hunt and mine the Titans? Lyrium is blood after all and a powerful source of magic. Since, through Word Of God, we learned that blood magic ain't some separate kind of magic stemming from some inherent power of blood, but the concept of sacrifice of life forces (and pain), I'd say that anybody who craves it would likely find reasons to use it, Veil or no Veil. After all, we do have evidence supporting the idea that even in the 'world of the elves' there were still more or less powerful/talented individuals. Logically, that issue alone would breed the need to use something more potent than any 'ordinary magic' laying around. And that's aside from a very real possibility that different kind of magic, aside from different levels of potency, may have specific properties that aren't immediately obvious yet.
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Post by Lulupab on Dec 24, 2018 0:11:28 GMT
I think if the veil didn't exist, there would be little incentive to use blood magic, as infinite connection to fade is possible. One should not lack power if they need it. But with veil in place, blood magic makes sense. To get the extra power you need by not relying on the fade, but the life forces in the waking world. I think the elves had little interest in looking for ways to draw power from life forces, when they could easily do so from the fade. But Tevinter always needed more power because the veil was very limiting. Hence invention of blood magic and its popularity in Tevinter. If the elves had little interest in looking for ways to draw power from life forces... why did they hunt and mine the Titans? Lyrium is blood after all and a powerful source of magic. Since, through Word Of God, we learned that blood magic ain't some separate kind of magic stemming from some inherent power of blood, but the concept of sacrifice of life forces (and pain), I'd say that anybody who craves it would likely find reasons to use it, Veil or no Veil. After all, we do have evidence supporting the idea that even in the 'world of the elves' there were still more or less powerful/talented individuals. Logically, that issue alone would breed the need to use something more potent than any 'ordinary magic' laying around. And that's aside from a very real possibility that different kind of magic, aside from different levels of potency, may have specific properties that aren't immediately obvious yet. I didn't think about that way. I mean the Lyrium thing. But its still a boost to how regular magic works, not a whole brand of its own. I think purely on power level, abominations are what mages would be able to do if there was no veil. Because they basically get unlimited access to the fade thanks to the fade entity inside them. Now imagine that without the need to get possessed. So to rephrase, there was many more sources of power other than blood. So there was less incentive to go for it. As Tevinter did not "invent" blood magic, merely discover.
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Post by midnight tea on Dec 24, 2018 1:15:35 GMT
If the elves had little interest in looking for ways to draw power from life forces... why did they hunt and mine the Titans? Lyrium is blood after all and a powerful source of magic. Since, through Word Of God, we learned that blood magic ain't some separate kind of magic stemming from some inherent power of blood, but the concept of sacrifice of life forces (and pain), I'd say that anybody who craves it would likely find reasons to use it, Veil or no Veil. After all, we do have evidence supporting the idea that even in the 'world of the elves' there were still more or less powerful/talented individuals. Logically, that issue alone would breed the need to use something more potent than any 'ordinary magic' laying around. And that's aside from a very real possibility that different kind of magic, aside from different levels of potency, may have specific properties that aren't immediately obvious yet. I didn't think about that way. I mean the Lyrium thing. But its still a boost to how regular magic works, not a whole brand of its own. I think purely on power level, abominations are what mages would be able to do if there was no veil. Because they basically get unlimited access to the fade thanks to the fade entity inside them. Now imagine that without the need to get possessed. So to rephrase, there was many more sources of power other than blood. So there was less incentive to go for it. As Tevinter did not "invent" blood magic, merely discover. Are we entirely sure lyrium isn't working on the same principle as blood magic? Lyrium may have its own special properties as an ingredient, but it's still blood and one that - according to Valta - is a gift from Titans. So, in essence - it would still qualify as the sacrifice of life's energy. Who knows, perhaps it's even the origin of blood magic that way - but that would make it very, very old.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Dec 24, 2018 1:51:42 GMT
I didn't think about that way. I mean the Lyrium thing. But its still a boost to how regular magic works, not a whole brand of its own. I think purely on power level, abominations are what mages would be able to do if there was no veil. Because they basically get unlimited access to the fade thanks to the fade entity inside them. Now imagine that without the need to get possessed. So to rephrase, there was many more sources of power other than blood. So there was less incentive to go for it. As Tevinter did not "invent" blood magic, merely discover. Are we entirely sure lyrium isn't working on the same principle as blood magic? Lyrium may have its own special properties as an ingredient, but it's still blood and one that - according to Valta - is a gift from Titans. So, in essence - it would still qualify as the sacrifice of life's energy. Who knows, perhaps it's even the origin of blood magic that way - but that would make it very, very old. BUT THAT STILL DOESN'T EXPLAIN WHY IT SUPPRESSES MAGIC WHEN NORMIES FREEBASE IT. ARGH MY BRAIN HURTS.
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Post by midnight tea on Dec 24, 2018 2:17:53 GMT
Are we entirely sure lyrium isn't working on the same principle as blood magic? Lyrium may have its own special properties as an ingredient, but it's still blood and one that - according to Valta - is a gift from Titans. So, in essence - it would still qualify as the sacrifice of life's energy. Who knows, perhaps it's even the origin of blood magic that way - but that would make it very, very old. BUT THAT STILL DOESN'T EXPLAIN WHY IT SUPPRESSES MAGIC WHEN NORMIES FREEBASE IT. ARGH MY BRAIN HURTS. Well yeah... add to that Seekers having similar/same abilities, and they don't use lyrium - in fact there are hints (if not downright statements) suggesting that they may as well be abominations Still, from what we know now Templars/Seekers don't really 'suppress magic' as much as they're 'reinforcing reality', making it less mutable. Which I think may be the key to understanding their powers - or why Seekers are ostensibly linked with spirits of faith. They make the world around them 'more real' because they proclaim it as such by drawing from wills more powerful than theirs, or supplement their own (or their belief in it?). It'd also make sense why elves called Titans 'pillars of the Earth' - because they may make the real/physical world what it is.
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Post by Kaidan Fan on Dec 24, 2018 3:04:37 GMT
I chose save him. But if he won't abandon his plan, he's gotta go. *drags thumb across throat dramatically*
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Post by House Targaryen on Dec 24, 2018 5:21:01 GMT
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Post by dmc1001 on Dec 25, 2018 18:18:48 GMT
If we follow Reaper logic, killing Solas could be saving him.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2018 18:54:43 GMT
If we follow Reaper logic, killing Solas could be saving him. I keep expecting a scene where we save him and in saving him, he dies by choice. Either he sacrifices himself to stop the destruction of Thedas or he asks to be killed to be set free. Hopefully this would only be an option though and not his intended fate, though living seems very unlikely at this point.
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Post by midnight tea on Dec 25, 2018 18:57:01 GMT
If we follow Reaper logic, killing Solas could be saving him. I keep expecting a scene where we save him and in saving him, he dies by choice. Either he sacrifices himself to stop the destruction of Thedas or he asks to be killed to be set free. Hopefully this would only be an option though and not his intended fate, though living seems very unlikely at this point. Well, Thedas IS the world in which death ain't necessarily permanent. Just ask Solas's buddy, Mythal.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2018 19:01:09 GMT
I keep expecting a scene where we save him and in saving him, he dies by choice. Either he sacrifices himself to stop the destruction of Thedas or he asks to be killed to be set free. Hopefully this would only be an option though and not his intended fate, though living seems very unlikely at this point. Well, Thedas IS the world in which death ain't necessarily permanent. Just ask Solas's buddy, Mythal. Especially Hawke/Stroud/Loghain/Alistair who are hinted at dying, but their fate is left unknown. I personally think Solas was a spirit that took the form of a male elf based on things Cole says in Trespasser.
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Post by Lulupab on Dec 25, 2018 20:19:44 GMT
I will rage so hard if they turn Solas into a de facto villain. I cannot endure another illusive man treatment.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 25, 2018 20:20:41 GMT
I will rage so hard if they turn Solas into a de facto villain. I cannot endure another illusive man treatment. His plan literally involves killing everybody. He is going to be a de facto villain.
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Post by Lulupab on Dec 25, 2018 20:36:49 GMT
I will rage so hard if they turn Solas into a de facto villain. I cannot endure another illusive man treatment. His plan literally involves killing everybody. He is going to be a de facto villain. There are several reasons its a bad idea, like he has doubts on doing that plan. Also I still want to know why removing the veil kills everyone. I have no problem seeing many people dying, but how is that going to result in every single last denizen of Thedas dying? Because there is clear sign of humans and Dwarves living in the same time with ancient elves. And in current state of the world, the veil is just a ticking time bomb. If not Solas, someone else might remove it. Heck his death might remove all traces of his magic and effectively remove the veil. The current life on Thedas depends on a twisted magic ritual that has distorted balance of the world. Its better to prepare for it and get rid of it than to wait on it to some day wipe out the population who were nowhere close to being prepared for it. I do not accept stopping Solas as a viable solution to the veil issue. It needs to be dealt with. And the ideal scenario would be getting rid of it with least possible death or somehow make it very permanent.
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Post by witchcocktor on Dec 25, 2018 20:38:37 GMT
The whole choice between killing Solas and '' saving '' Solas is so.. stupid.
If the Inquisitor who constantly kisses Solas' ass and does everything he agrees with, can't change Solas' mind, what or who will? More sweet words he doesn't deserve to hear? Let's say you convince him to not fuck everything up more than he has already, what then? What, then? An eternity in prison for Solas? Will he be made tranquil? Will you just let him roam Thedas with no consequences for his actions?
I just... I feel like Bioware wrote themselves into a corner with Solas. No matter what they do, I can't help but think it'll be either anti-climactic or that it won't make much sense.
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Post by gervaise21 on Dec 25, 2018 21:59:29 GMT
Maybe I'm misremembering, but I don't think Solas said blood magic blocked the Fade, just that it more difficult to dream-walk? So maybe he works better where the Veil isn't thin (as it would be in Kirkwall), in order to delve deeper into his more Fade-y magics? Like some kind of adaptation to the Veil that's he's made for himself, adjusting to a world where the physical and magical worlds are separate. He says that he doesn't use it as it makes it more difficult to enter the Fade. So it could be that it makes it difficult for him to enter the Fade at will, which is what is unique to Dreamers, but that still begs the question why? Everything in the past has pointed to it making it easier to enter the Fade; that was why Tevinter used blood sacrifice to do this, initially when they wanted to map the Fade and then later when Corypheus & Co wanted to get in. As has been suggested, it is possible that blood magic started to be used more after the Veil precisely because it overcame the limits that the Veil had placed on magic. However, the Dreamers of Ancient Tevinter were said to be the first humans to use blood magic. Why would they do this if it stopped them entering the Fade as easily as they could without it? So may be it does have to do with the fact that Solas is an elven dreamer. Alternatively, the real reason may be that it does attract demons and he had no wish to do this. Of course, now that he is powered up after his long sleep, the reasons with respect to Solas are probably moot as he clearly has more magical power than the majority of other living mages. It would still be helpful to have an explanation from a lore point of view.
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Post by gervaise21 on Dec 25, 2018 22:11:42 GMT
The whole choice between killing Solas and '' saving '' Solas is so.. stupid. That was my initial reaction the first time I was faced with that choice at the end of Trespasser. He had just told me that his plan involved destroying my world and I am meant to be concerned about "redeeming" him. Get your priorities right. However, knowing Bioware, it was clear that saying you are going to stop him is considered the "ruthless" choice and that does seem how it is portrayed in the Keep. I really wanted the option to spare him if I can but the world comes first and to me that is how choosing to save him is portrayed in the Keep. Then the epilogue has you stating that your aim is to "save our friend from himself" but that should not be the priority, particularly as he withheld the information that might actually allow you to do this.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2018 22:12:22 GMT
The whole choice between killing Solas and '' saving '' Solas is so.. stupid. If the Inquisitor who constantly kisses Solas' ass and does everything he agrees with, can't change Solas' mind, what or who will? More sweet words he doesn't deserve to hear? Let's say you convince him to not fuck everything up more than he has already, what then? What, then? An eternity in prison for Solas? Will he be made tranquil? Will you just let him roam Thedas with no consequences for his actions? I just... I feel like Bioware wrote themselves into a corner with Solas. No matter what they do, I can't help but think it'll be either anti-climactic or that it won't make much sense. I am feeling that way too. There is no happy ending for him at the moment, and it's probably why romancing him was not an option at first or maybe it was intended just to rip out our hearts once again. I feel if his story is coming to end, it needs to be permanent. Maybe a romanced Solas and his Inquisitor will ascend together or something, but him remaining on Thedas to live out his days as a normal elf is highly unlikely.
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Post by Beerfish on Dec 25, 2018 23:04:08 GMT
Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo breath.... Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Save is far ahead in the poll!
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Post by midnight tea on Dec 25, 2018 23:08:05 GMT
The whole choice between killing Solas and '' saving '' Solas is so.. stupid. If the Inquisitor who constantly kisses Solas' ass and does everything he agrees with, can't change Solas' mind, what or who will? More sweet words he doesn't deserve to hear? Let's say you convince him to not fuck everything up more than he has already, what then? What, then? An eternity in prison for Solas? Will he be made tranquil? Will you just let him roam Thedas with no consequences for his actions? I just... I feel like Bioware wrote themselves into a corner with Solas. No matter what they do, I can't help but think it'll be either anti-climactic or that it won't make much sense. I am feeling that way too. There is no happy ending for him at the moment, and it's probably why romancing him was not an option at first or maybe it was intended just to rip out our hearts once again. I feel if his story is coming to end, it needs to be permanent. Maybe a romanced Solas and his Inquisitor will ascend together or something, but him remaining on Thedas to live out his days as a normal elf is highly unlikely. Yea, though... that assumes that after our tiff with Solas is done everything else will be back to relative normal I'm not sure we should expect that (and I'm not necessarily talking about the Veil or whatever happens to it).
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Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2018 23:39:01 GMT
I am feeling that way too. There is no happy ending for him at the moment, and it's probably why romancing him was not an option at first or maybe it was intended just to rip out our hearts once again. I feel if his story is coming to end, it needs to be permanent. Maybe a romanced Solas and his Inquisitor will ascend together or something, but him remaining on Thedas to live out his days as a normal elf is highly unlikely. Yea, though... that assumes that after our tiff with Solas is done everything else will be back to relative normal I'm not sure we should expect that (and I'm not necessarily talking about the Veil or whatever happens to it). Yeah it has me wondering if the age of dragons is coming to and end and something new will happen after Solas' story ends. This feels like the Skywalker saga,
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Post by midnight tea on Dec 25, 2018 23:48:50 GMT
Yea, though... that assumes that after our tiff with Solas is done everything else will be back to relative normal I'm not sure we should expect that (and I'm not necessarily talking about the Veil or whatever happens to it). Yeah it has me wondering if the age of dragons is coming to and end and something new will happen after Solas' story ends. This feels like the Skywalker saga, Or the Dragon Age - as in: the way people measure time and name specific periods - morphs into actual 'Age of Dragons' Or... you know... it can always end like this:
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Post by witchcocktor on Dec 26, 2018 0:39:52 GMT
The whole choice between killing Solas and '' saving '' Solas is so.. stupid. If the Inquisitor who constantly kisses Solas' ass and does everything he agrees with, can't change Solas' mind, what or who will? More sweet words he doesn't deserve to hear? Let's say you convince him to not fuck everything up more than he has already, what then? What, then? An eternity in prison for Solas? Will he be made tranquil? Will you just let him roam Thedas with no consequences for his actions? I just... I feel like Bioware wrote themselves into a corner with Solas. No matter what they do, I can't help but think it'll be either anti-climactic or that it won't make much sense. Maybe a romanced Solas and his Inquisitor will ascend together or something, but him remaining on Thedas to live out his days as a normal elf is highly unlikely. If by ascend together you mean die together, then yes. I can't wait for Bioware to make all the Solasmancers not only suffer, but to lose their Inquisitor in the process because of their loyalty to Solas. The man hurts you, breaks your heart, manipulates your organization and you, and then goes on a quest to kill all your friends, your family AND you, and you STILL see anything good in him? No no, death will be part of your ending too dear! Obviously I'm being overly dramatic but not any more dramatic than all the people who sees something worth redeeming in the egg, not to mention LOVE. Though then again I'm also dumb-founded how anyone can stick with Dorian, but at least with Dorian you can RP an Inquisitor who is mature enough to handle long distance relationships, have their own things to do and put up with Dorian's self-victimizing, emotionally manipulative, self-centered ways. For Solas? The only way I could ever romance him is with someone who makes it their freaking, QUEST, to demolish Solas for good and smash him into smithereens for what he did. But that's just me, that's just me, I'm not everyone. Obviously.
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