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Post by Prince on Jun 17, 2017 22:55:52 GMT
Riordan stated that he expected from the Warden to know about the US long before he even made the revelation,that's why he didn't said anything prior to the Landsmeet because he thought that Warden knew about that and not because he was hiding it(Now I personally see it as mediocre writing made ala Gaider's, as there was no reason for Riordan to not verify that in few seconds).Senior GW don't hide the US from Non-Senior GW(where did you even got that?Can't you see that Riordan is surprised to know that you didn't know?),only Duncan did that and Gaider forced him to do that because of the reasons stated above by the other user,to help in Morrigan's non mandatory plotline. This only confirms that Riordan assumed that Duncan would have told them, not that it's normal policy for raw recruits to be told. Not counting that the Fereldan Warden branch was already small to begin with (thus increasing the odds that each Warden would have ending up as the one to finish the Archdemon) any normal secrecy rules the Wardens might have might be waived during a Blight anyway... although that doesn't explain why Duncan refused to tell us. Personally however I see two explanations for this. The first being that he planned to do so after the battle of Ostagar, only to never get a chance. The second is the same reason why he kept Alistair out of any major fighting and insisted that the Senior Wardens would handle the Archdemon if it showed up at Ostagar. As Riordan states, "Duncan always had a soft-spot for his recruits". Rewatching the Landsmeet, you can even see the moment when Riordan twigs that neither the Warden or Alistair knew about the Ultimate Sacrifice. If they'd known prior to this point, they'd have immediately picked up on why he was suggesting to put Loghain through the Joining and why they needed as many Wardens on the field as possible, because three was not enough. As for where the idea comes from that the older Wardens keep things from the younger members, Loghain states in DAI that Senior Wardens are trusted with more secrets, his decade of service being how he became one of the few who know of the existence of Corypheus. Only Warden-Commanders and a select few Senior Wardens seem to know of the Vimmark Prison's existence as well, since a Warden Bethany/Carver (at most joined for 7 years) weren't aware of it in Legacy. There are some secrets that the GW don't share between themselves,they are all secrets known by their First Warden and Chamberlain(they are such secrets that not even the player know about it),so the elitè of their order, however the US is not one of them as even a false GW like Blackwall knew about it in DAI. It's unlikely that Blackwall actually knew. Inquisitor: How do the Wardens deal with Archdemons? Blackwall: Short answer? Stick it with swords until it stops moving. Inquisitor: Wardens are in all the stories. If it was that easy, anyone could do it. Blackwall: No, it really is that simple. Just because the Archdemon is magic, doesn't mean it can't be killed with swords. It just... has to be a... Grey Warden sword. Look, it's not the killing blow that's the problem, it's getting the Dragon to the point where it's vulnerable, where it actually can be killed. Blackwall has an extremely noticeable pause prior him commenting on it having to be a Warden's sword, making it far more likely he was scrambling for an answer rather than deliberately concealing the truth. That he immediately deflects the question to how the hard part is getting the Archdemon vulnerable, suggests that doesn't really know and was trying not to get caught out in a lie. At most he knows that a Warden is necessary to slay the Archdemon, but he doesn't know why. This is consistent with most of what Blackwall states about Wardens, which tends to be basic stuff or vague enough to get by, without actually getting into details that would tip him as a fraud. The dialogues of Blackwall imply that he knows about the US or else he wouldn't have said that it needs to be a GW(in fact nobody knows even that aside from GW).Sorry but it does imply the exact opposite of your claims. Secondly Loghain dialogues about the senior wardens doesn't confirm that they hide the US it only says that they know even more things(like Corypheus and his prison). Lastly as I have said before it makes no sense for Duncan to say he will deal with the AD when he has to face all those darkspawns from the frontlines.
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Post by akiza on Jun 17, 2017 23:06:41 GMT
Blackwall faked to be a GW for so many years that I wouldn't be surprised if some true GW told him about it believing he was from the order.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jun 18, 2017 7:30:59 GMT
This only confirms that Riordan assumed that Duncan would have told them, not that it's normal policy for raw recruits to be told. Not counting that the Fereldan Warden branch was already small to begin with (thus increasing the odds that each Warden would have ending up as the one to finish the Archdemon) any normal secrecy rules the Wardens might have might be waived during a Blight anyway... although that doesn't explain why Duncan refused to tell us. Personally however I see two explanations for this. The first being that he planned to do so after the battle of Ostagar, only to never get a chance. The second is the same reason why he kept Alistair out of any major fighting and insisted that the Senior Wardens would handle the Archdemon if it showed up at Ostagar. As Riordan states, "Duncan always had a soft-spot for his recruits". Rewatching the Landsmeet, you can even see the moment when Riordan twigs that neither the Warden or Alistair knew about the Ultimate Sacrifice. If they'd known prior to this point, they'd have immediately picked up on why he was suggesting to put Loghain through the Joining and why they needed as many Wardens on the field as possible, because three was not enough. As for where the idea comes from that the older Wardens keep things from the younger members, Loghain states in DAI that Senior Wardens are trusted with more secrets, his decade of service being how he became one of the few who know of the existence of Corypheus. Only Warden-Commanders and a select few Senior Wardens seem to know of the Vimmark Prison's existence as well, since a Warden Bethany/Carver (at most joined for 7 years) weren't aware of it in Legacy. It's unlikely that Blackwall actually knew. Inquisitor: How do the Wardens deal with Archdemons? Blackwall: Short answer? Stick it with swords until it stops moving. Inquisitor: Wardens are in all the stories. If it was that easy, anyone could do it. Blackwall: No, it really is that simple. Just because the Archdemon is magic, doesn't mean it can't be killed with swords. It just... has to be a... Grey Warden sword. Look, it's not the killing blow that's the problem, it's getting the Dragon to the point where it's vulnerable, where it actually can be killed. Blackwall has an extremely noticeable pause prior him commenting on it having to be a Warden's sword, making it far more likely he was scrambling for an answer rather than deliberately concealing the truth. That he immediately deflects the question to how the hard part is getting the Archdemon vulnerable, suggests that doesn't really know and was trying not to get caught out in a lie. At most he knows that a Warden is necessary to slay the Archdemon, but he doesn't know why. This is consistent with most of what Blackwall states about Wardens, which tends to be basic stuff or vague enough to get by, without actually getting into details that would tip him as a fraud. The dialogues of Blackwall imply that he knows about the US or else he wouldn't have said that it needs to be a GW(in fact nobody knows even that aside from GW).Sorry but it does imply the exact opposite of your claims. Everyone thinks they know it has to be a Grey Warden. The legends clearly state that only a Grey Warden can kill an Archdemon, even if they don't state why or give anything like enough evidence to conclude it with as much certainty as everyone seems to.
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Post by Prince on Jun 18, 2017 12:15:01 GMT
The dialogues of Blackwall imply that he knows about the US or else he wouldn't have said that it needs to be a GW(in fact nobody knows even that aside from GW).Sorry but it does imply the exact opposite of your claims. Everyone thinks they know it has to be a Grey Warden. The legends clearly state that only a Grey Warden can kill an Archdemon, even if they don't state why or give anything like enough evidence to conclude it with as much certainty as everyone seems to. It's an intel provided by the narrative of the game which I was already aware of,however not only it has nothing to do with Blackwall(as he revealed that Archdemons needs to be killed in close combat by GW with swords and that magic is involved in the process which points out that he knows more than the average person)but it's also inconsistent with the game-narrative overall. If the population of Thedas is aware that only GW can kill the AD and based all the benefits and rights they gave to the order(right of conscription,lands,fortress,ecc..) on that, one should expect that they at least know why they are the only ones which can kill AD and what it happens if that doesn't happen. Instead they know nothing which is narrative nosense given the effects Dumat had in their history. Archdemon Dumat pulled this trick 4-5 times during the 1st blight and that's why all the soldiers which were ghatered from all of Thedas left the AD to GW,because they knew about his ability which Dumat used several times when he was killed by Non-GW(and he was killed many times by Tevinter magisters). So now for the people in the Dragon Age to not know that Archdemons can resurrect themselves unless it is a GW to kill them(despite Dumat rubbed it in their faces in the past) is just a narrative nosense pulled by writers to wait for the reveal in DAO to keep the PC in ignorance.
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Post by doflamingodonquijote on Jun 18, 2017 12:20:03 GMT
When you find the codex of Archdemon Dumat in the game you find it incomplete,and when Riordan makes the reveal it is automatically updated for no reason.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jun 19, 2017 0:09:15 GMT
Everyone thinks they know it has to be a Grey Warden. The legends clearly state that only a Grey Warden can kill an Archdemon, even if they don't state why or give anything like enough evidence to conclude it with as much certainty as everyone seems to. It's an intel provided by the narrative of the game which I was already aware of,however not only it has nothing to do with Blackwall(as he revealed that Archdemons needs to be killed in close combat by GW with swords and that magic is involved in the process which points out that he knows more than the average person)but it's also inconsistent with the game-narrative overall. If the population of Thedas is aware that only GW can kill the AD and based all the benefits and rights they gave to the order(right of conscription,lands,fortress,ecc..) on that, one should expect that they at least know why they are the only ones which can kill AD and what it happens if that doesn't happen. Instead they know nothing which is narrative nosense given the effects Dumat had in their history. Archdemon Dumat pulled this trick 4-5 times during the 1st blight and that's why all the soldiers which were ghatered from all of Thedas left the AD to GW,because they knew about his ability which Dumat used several times when he was killed by Non-GW(and he was killed many times by Tevinter magisters). So now for the people in the Dragon Age to not know that Archdemons can resurrect themselves unless it is a GW to kill them(despite Dumat rubbed it in their faces in the past) is just a narrative nosense pulled by writers to wait for the reveal in DAO to keep the PC in ignorance. Well I didn't say it makes sense for everyone to take it on faith that it has to be a Grey Warden to kill an Archdemon despite not knowing why. I just said that to all appearances that is what happens. And I still don't think the exchange actually demonstrates that Blackwall knows more than average about killing Archdemons. Everything he says is accurate, but while it's what I'd expect him to come up with if he knew the truth and needed to hide what the truth was without offending the person asking, it also seems like something he'd say to hide not knowing more than the Inquisitor. After all, "stab it with swords a lot" is probably a well-known part of the procedure given that there are people still living who watched the Warden do just that to Urthemiel, and "magic is involved" is more than a bit of a sucker bet.
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Post by Prince on Jun 19, 2017 10:31:33 GMT
Well I didn't say it makes sense for everyone to take it on faith that it has to be a Grey Warden to kill an Archdemon despite not knowing why. I just said that to all appearances that is what happens. And I still don't think the exchange actually demonstrates that Blackwall knows more than average about killing Archdemons. Everything he says is accurate, but while it's what I'd expect him to come up with if he knew the truth and needed to hide what the truth was without offending the person asking, it also seems like something he'd say to hide not knowing more than the Inquisitor. After all, "stab it with swords a lot" is probably a well-known part of the procedure given that there are people still living who watched the Warden do just that to Urthemiel, and "magic is involved" is more than a bit of a sucker bet. Whether it does or it does not make sense for everyone (which in fact it doesn't as there were people like Loghain and Arland who distrusted them)was not my point. My point was that given history and lore of the franchise everyone should be already aware of the Archdemons ability,it shouldn't be a secret because of Dumat. It doesn't matter if only GW are aware that it happens because of the existence of the Archdemon's souls,the process of reincarnation should be already a common fact for everyone not the secret that it is because purposely hidden for narrative purposes in DAO.So if we think about it,the whole plot of DAO which is based on Loghain being the main antagonist primarily for his own ignorance about the necessity of GW to kill AD,it makes no sense as he should know that AD can resurrect themselves when not killed by GW. As for Blackwall,he has been in contact with GW for many years which means he got the time to come to know about the US,not only he was a recruiter but he meet a lot of them(Senior and recruits) who have always considered him one of their own,so it's perfectly plausible to assume that he knows the US,just as he knows about joining and others secrets. That he has told you that it need to be killed with swords it imply that he knows that it needs to be killed in close combat (rather than with ranged weapons and only the GW know that),the average person or the Inquisitor ignore it,and if he was vague it wasn't because he didn't know but because he doesn't want to share it with others non-GW.
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Post by oyabun on Jun 19, 2017 15:17:36 GMT
Sometimes in fantasy you have to suspend your disbelief . If you are gonna question why the population of Thedas forgot about Dumat and his capacity to survive to death against Non-GW and why they didn't wrote about it in their books of history,the the whole paranoia of Loghain wouldn't make any sense and he will just look as an insane paranoid. But I don't care much about this whole thing,I just want to see if they are making something in DA4 for Urthmiel and Mythal or if they are just gonna cut his plotline (which wouldn't be new practice for bioware).
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Post by daelonduluc on Jul 5, 2017 16:46:54 GMT
The quality of mercy is not strained.
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Post by Kei on Jul 9, 2017 0:31:42 GMT
The warden I played was most of the time in stealth mode for the entirety of the game,so I've totally avoided both her and the other two mages that were with her,as I love to say,no kill no sin.
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