Iakus
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Post by Iakus on May 21, 2019 13:20:34 GMT
Warning: langauage
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Post by Ieldra on May 21, 2019 13:31:45 GMT
But all the critics aside, maybe I'm a deranged man, but if I had been Jon I would not even let Dany finish her question as I would have immediately answered with a hundred ''YES LETS GO DO THIS! ''. I still think with Jon playing the role of her consciousness and Dany doing the hard decisions this could have worked out nicely for everyone. Well, maybe not everyone but for a lot of people. Of course from Jons perspective it makes absolute sense, but *I* would have chosen differently still. So much power and glory at reach, yet dismissed. This is painful. If so, I'm as deranged as you. I think the ending as it is fits the story and its general mood, yet were this a roleplaying decision I would make a different decision than Jon. I guess I'm just unfashionably imperial-minded
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Post by Pounce de León on May 21, 2019 13:52:38 GMT
Have I become too numbed when feeling they kinda wrapped it up OK'ish after throwing most of the plots and characters already outa window. Apart from the plot logic I am kinda fine with the resolution.
The only thing I can't wrap my head around is Jon taking the black? What Watch is there left to join? I guess he knows neither when he leaves beyond the wall. Even then, living like the free folk - i think it fits to Jon.
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Obadiah
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Post by Obadiah on May 21, 2019 13:52:58 GMT
This scene alone had more character, wit, realism and development than the whole of season 8 Ugh, I beg to differ. At least season 8 realized that well-choreographed fight scenes wasn't one of the show's strengths. Rarely have I felt as relieved as when Jaime lost his hand, sparing us from more of Nikolaj Coster-Waldau's shoddy swordsmanship while hailing him as one of the best fighters in the country. And now Daenerys. I've liked her from day one. Not because she's hot but because she's one of the few characters in the series who is likeable. A lot of Martins characters are not likeable. They may be fine in a few episodes only to turn into shits later on. I believed in her for doing the right things, to build a better world, to break the wheel so to speak. Very liberal ideas. And if anyone who knows me from the old political thread, I'm a polar opposite of her by being quite conservative. Now if a lib can turn me into liking them, they must be doing a good job. Now her "madness", I don't buy it. It wasn't presented well and all this Targaryen nonsense of insanity running in their bloodlines? Bull shit. There are two mad kings that I can think of, Maegor the Cruel and her father. A couple who weren't all there in the head, but not insane. Rage? Yes. I already mention this in this topic. If she was going to be a fallen character, I wish it would have been presented better, because it takes time for this to develop. And a lot of times fallen characters can find redemption after seeing the errors of their way and can return to the light. Dany never had a chance for that. I actually think the show did a good job of subverting this. At no point in her development does it feel like some inherent madness is lurking in the back of her mind. She doesn't actually go "Mad Queen" in the sense the Targaryan blood stuff would imply. Her fall seems to be entirely a consequence of her skewed experiences with what victory and liberation look and feel like, her having come to define herself as a savior, and her emotional stability being undercut at the worst possible time. I'm fairly liberal politically, and I liked Dany, but she never really inspired me. On the contrary, she scared me. I didn't trust her. There's no way that pointing a dragon at people and demanding that they conform to your superior morality is a sustainable way to make the world a better place. It might work well occasionally, or even be the only good option, but the power and certainty involved with such a mindset is just begging for an excuse to overreach and self-destruct, and nothing in her demeanor throughout the series does anything to indicate that she's conscious of that. In hindsight, I admire her character arc a lot more after these last couple of episodes than I did when she was a worryingly admired brutal feminist icon. Now she's a lesson, or at least an attempted lesson, in what happens when you become too certain of your own goodness. You might do some good, but eventually you'll make errors of judgement, and if you're too proud or afraid to own those mistakes and reassess then you can't be trusted to claim any authority over the rest of us. It would have been nice for them to spend a few scenes fleshing the development out and making it feel more plausible for people who weren't prepared, although I don't personally find it implausible at all. People can unravel before you have time to turn around, and in ways you never notice until the consequences are staring you in the face. But I definitely can't fault them for how they wrote her. It's a lesson that's sorely needed these days, especially for the "libs" as you call us. If Martin had this arc planned out all the way back in 1991, then I tip my hat to him. It's very timely, and very true. The series had a running theme of likeable characters who would become so sure of themselves that they would end up doing something terrible in pursuit of what they thought was right. From the conspirators against Jon at the Nights Watch to Stannis. It is unfortunate that the episode didn't give Dany's allies more of a chance to try to convince her that what she had done was so very wrong. In fact, it would have been good if Tyrion's entire conversation with Jon was instead with Dany, minus the "she needs to die" part of course. But, I think we all know how that conversation would have ended given the one that we did get in the throne room. Daenerys only seems to show empathy when Jon breaks down.
I actually can't believe this is the same actress from that crappy Terminator movie.
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Post by Noxluxe on May 21, 2019 14:09:40 GMT
But all the critics aside, maybe I'm a deranged man, but if I had been Jon I would not even let Dany finish her question as I would have immediately answered with a hundred ''YES LETS GO DO THIS! ''. I still think with Jon playing the role of her consciousness and Dany doing the hard decisions this could have worked out nicely for everyone. Well, maybe not everyone but for a lot of people. Of course from Jons perspective it makes absolute sense, but *I* would have chosen differently still. So much power and glory at reach, yet dismissed. This is painful. If so, I'm as deranged as you. I think the ending as it is fits the story and its general mood, yet were this a roleplaying decision I would make a different decision than Jon. I guess I'm just unfashionably imperial-minded That was kind of the first ending I envisioned while watching the episode. That Jon would be too insecure to do her in, and managed to keep her happy enough and keep his sisters and the North sequestered enough from her politics to keep them safe while they conquered and imposed their will on the known world, and eventually warred with whatever turns out to lie beyond. With the burning of king's landing not so much forgiven as lost in the pile amid countless worse atrocities. And Daenerys would end up a resentful crone in some far-off castle surrounded by sand melted into glass by dragonfire, with Jon long dead. Fighting desperately to keep her stranglehold on a world far too big and complicated for her to control. Cursing her enemies dead and alive. Until she finally does succumb to true madness brought on by stress and loneliness and paranoia and existential failure. And just burns them all. I think I'd have liked that ending as well, and maybe it would have been an even more powerful lesson in the dangers of moral certainty. But Jesus Christ it would have been bleak.
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Post by Ieldra on May 21, 2019 15:18:28 GMT
If so, I'm as deranged as you. I think the ending as it is fits the story and its general mood, yet were this a roleplaying decision I would make a different decision than Jon. I guess I'm just unfashionably imperial-minded That was kind of the first ending I envisioned while watching the episode. That Jon would be too insecure to do her in, and managed to keep her happy enough and keep his sisters and the North sequestered enough from her politics to keep them safe while they conquered and imposed their will on the known world, and eventually warred with whatever turns out to lie beyond. With the burning of king's landing not so much forgiven as lost in the pile amid countless worse atrocities. And Daenerys would end up a resentful crone in some far-off castle surrounded by sand melted into glass by dragonfire, with Jon long dead. Fighting desperately to keep her stranglehold on a world far too big and complicated for her to control. Cursing her enemies dead and alive. Until she finally does succumb to true madness brought on by stress and loneliness and paranoia and existential failure. And just burns them all. I think I'd have liked that ending as well, and maybe it would have been an even more powerful lesson in the dangers of moral certainty. But Jesus Christ it would have been bleak. Indeed, the knowledge that things would probably go like this in the world of GoT was one reason why I appreciate how things ended. Still, were I within the world I'd still hope for something better. After all, we only know it would probably go like this because it's a story, and we know our storytelling tropes and the messages people are likely to tell through them. If Daenerys had taken a step back to reconsider what she was doing after King's Landing the message would've been for naught, so it didn't happen. It could've happened though. Wouldn't have been all that implausible either, since after all, her turning dark was rather sudden and could've been explained as a bout of madness born of grief, and passed.
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Post by Iakus on May 21, 2019 15:24:53 GMT
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Post by Noxluxe on May 21, 2019 16:53:26 GMT
Indeed, the knowledge that things would probably go like this in the world of GoT was one reason why I appreciate how things ended. Still, were I within the world I'd still hope for something better. After all, we only know it would probably go like this because it's a story, and we know our storytelling tropes and the messages people are likely to tell through them. If Daenerys had taken a step back to reconsider what she was doing after King's Landing the message would've been for naught, so it didn't happen. It could've happened though. Wouldn't have been all that implausible either, since after all, her turning dark was rather sudden and could've been explained as a bout of madness born of grief, and passed. True. That was the ending I was kind of hoping for before I started watching. We didn't actually see Daenerys' face for the rest of the episode after she decided to spur Drogon on a rampage, after all. I imagined that Jon and/or Tyrion would enter the Red Keep to find her curled into a ball in front of Balerion's half-buried skull, weeping and retching and terrified of facing anyone ever again. And the sight would restore their faith in her humanity and allow them to make the best of what she'd done, using the fear to take complete control of the realm while she reflected on how cautious she would have to be for the rest of her reign to make up for even a tenth of the suffering she'd caused, finally completing her development into an actually good ruler by shattering her confidence and forcing her to be willing to rely on wiser heads just to live with herself. Done right, that still might have served to hammer the message home. And I agree that that would have been a less heavy-handed way to end her journey, and less unflattering to her character up to that point.
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Post by Giant Ambush Beetle on May 21, 2019 16:56:43 GMT
But all the critics aside, maybe I'm a deranged man, but if I had been Jon I would not even let Dany finish her question as I would have immediately answered with a hundred ''YES LETS GO DO THIS! ''. I still think with Jon playing the role of her consciousness and Dany doing the hard decisions this could have worked out nicely for everyone. Well, maybe not everyone but for a lot of people. Of course from Jons perspective it makes absolute sense, but *I* would have chosen differently still. So much power and glory at reach, yet dismissed. This is painful. If so, I'm as deranged as you. I think the ending as it is fits the story and its general mood, yet were this a roleplaying decision I would make a different decision than Jon. I guess I'm just unfashionably imperial-minded I remember in Baldur's Gate I started as a lawful good Paladin but ended up as a chaotic evil fallen Paladin accepting the throne of Bhaal, and it was a totally natural, unplanned progression. And boy, it felt so right, if that game was reality it would have played out the exact same way for me!
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House Targaryen
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The night is dark and full of terrors, but the fire burns them all away.
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Post by House Targaryen on May 21, 2019 17:08:20 GMT
Indeed, the knowledge that things would probably go like this in the world of GoT was one reason why I appreciate how things ended. Still, were I within the world I'd still hope for something better. After all, we only know it would probably go like this because it's a story, and we know our storytelling tropes and the messages people are likely to tell through them. If Daenerys had taken a step back to reconsider what she was doing after King's Landing the message would've been for naught, so it didn't happen. It could've happened though. Wouldn't have been all that implausible either, since after all, her turning dark was rather sudden and could've been explained as a bout of madness born of grief, and passed. True. That was the ending I was kind of hoping for before I started watching. We didn't actually see Daenerys' face for the rest of the episode after she decided to spur Drogon on a rampage, after all. I imagined that Jon and/or Tyrion would enter the Red Keep to find her curled into a ball in front of Balerion's half-buried skull, weeping and retching and terrified of facing anyone ever again. And the sight would restore their faith in her humanity and allow them to make the best of what she'd done, using the fear to take complete control of the realm while she reflected on how cautious she would have to be for the rest of her reign to make up for even a tenth of the suffering she'd caused, finally completing her development into an actually good ruler by shattering her confidence and forcing her to be willing to rely on wiser heads just to live with herself. Done right, that still might have served to hammer the message home. And I agree that that would have been a less heavy-handed way to end her journey, and less unflattering to her character up to that point.
Daenerys did flinch when Jon went on a rant about the burned dead children littering the streets. Maybe have her go down there herself and see what she had done. That would have hit her hard seeing what she did to the people she claimed to wanting to protect. But knowing the writers they would have harden her heart and probably say something like "They were my enemy's children, now they will never grow up to be my future enemies."*
*That's a line I used on a fallen Jedi in my Kotor fanfic that I wrote years ago. She said that when some of her followers question her about the killing of children after they destroyed every living thing on a Mandalorian planet.
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Post by Iakus on May 21, 2019 17:09:55 GMT
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Post by Iakus on May 21, 2019 17:18:39 GMT
tvweb.com/game-of-thrones-season-8-final-episodes-george-rr-martin-books/Game of Thrones Author Promises New Books Won't Match Finale SeasonThere are characters who never made it onto the screen at all, and others who died in the show but still live in the books... so if nothing else, the readers will learn what happened to Jeyne Poole, Lady Stoneheart, Penny and her pig, Skahaz Shavepate, Arianne Martell, Darkstar, Victarion Greyjoy, Ser Garlan the Gallant, Aegon VI, and a myriad of other characters both great and small that viewers of the show never had the chance to meet. And yes, there will be unicorns... of a sort..."
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Post by Noxluxe on May 21, 2019 17:29:47 GMT
Daenerys did flinch when Jon went on a rant about the burned dead children littering the streets. Maybe have her go down there herself and see what she had done. That would have hit her hard seeing what she did to the people she claimed to wanting to protect. But knowing the writers they would have harden her heart and probably say something like "They were my enemy's children, now they will never grow up to be my future enemies."* *That's a line I used on a fallen Jedi in my Kotor fanfic that I wrote years ago. She said that when some of her followers question her about the killing of children after they destroyed every living thing on a Mandalorian planet.
Yup, I noticed that too. And based on that I do think she would have changed her mind, and demanded that Grey Worm cease murdering prisoners for a few days while she collected herself if she'd been forced to go down there. But the way I read her, it isn't so much that she's hardening her heart or actually convinced that the people of King's Landing were her enemies. She's just terrified of what it would do to her self-image if she accepted that her vision didn't justify what she did. So she doesn't dare to, and clings to her idea of herself as a savior any way she can. And Jon doesn't understand her well enough to get through to her, where Tyrion might have if he hadn't already played his cards and lost her trust. And yup, the Jedi are another example of people so purely focused on being good and benevolent as they see it that it can leave them very open to corruption and violent disillusionment. My favorite Star Wars character is Count Dooku, among other things because he saw that and tried to do something about it even at the cost of his honor and self-image.
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Post by Iakus on May 21, 2019 17:57:21 GMT
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Post by Iakus on May 21, 2019 18:09:25 GMT
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Post by Onecrazymonkey1 on May 21, 2019 18:13:41 GMT
tvweb.com/game-of-thrones-season-8-final-episodes-george-rr-martin-books/Game of Thrones Author Promises New Books Won't Match Finale SeasonThere are characters who never made it onto the screen at all, and others who died in the show but still live in the books... so if nothing else, the readers will learn what happened to Jeyne Poole, Lady Stoneheart, Penny and her pig, Skahaz Shavepate, Arianne Martell, Darkstar, Victarion Greyjoy, Ser Garlan the Gallant, Aegon VI, and a myriad of other characters both great and small that viewers of the show never had the chance to meet. And yes, there will be unicorns... of a sort..." If he finishes them... I don't particularly mind bleak and depressing ends, some of my favorite characters are shrouded in nothing but tragedy, there's a reason the ultimate sacrifice is my favorite way to finish off origins. Everyone can end up dying and I'd be fine with it, the journey rather than the destination is what I care the most about. If only the show had a couple more seasons to flesh these plots out more.
Anyway, there was one thing I really liked in the episode and that was Davos now correcting grammar, it was small but it gave me a smile. also..
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Post by Ieldra on May 21, 2019 18:16:41 GMT
If so, I'm as deranged as you. I think the ending as it is fits the story and its general mood, yet were this a roleplaying decision I would make a different decision than Jon. I guess I'm just unfashionably imperial-minded I remember in Baldur's Gate I started as a lawful good Paladin but ended up as a chaotic evil fallen Paladin accepting the throne of Bhaal, and it was a totally natural, unplanned progression. And boy, it felt so right, if that game was reality it would have played out the exact same way for me! Phew....extreme. Nothing I might've done I think. After all, *if* I wanted to be a ruler then I'd want to be a good one, the kind Daenerys wanted to be (the question of whether I'd actually manage to be one aside) and if I wanted things just for myself, power over others wouldn't have much appeal to me, I'd take magical power strong enough to force anyone to leave me alone instead. In any case, of the character arcs in GoT, I most identify with Sansa's and Arya's. Arya....yeah, I can totally see myself in that world doing exactly the same things, right to the end and including the decisions that turned out to be less than smart. Sansa... a hard learning curve but she clawed her way up to power in a rather impressive way.
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Post by Ieldra on May 21, 2019 18:20:06 GMT
tvweb.com/game-of-thrones-season-8-final-episodes-george-rr-martin-books/Game of Thrones Author Promises New Books Won't Match Finale SeasonThere are characters who never made it onto the screen at all, and others who died in the show but still live in the books... so if nothing else, the readers will learn what happened to Jeyne Poole, Lady Stoneheart, Penny and her pig, Skahaz Shavepate, Arianne Martell, Darkstar, Victarion Greyjoy, Ser Garlan the Gallant, Aegon VI, and a myriad of other characters both great and small that viewers of the show never had the chance to meet. And yes, there will be unicorns... of a sort..." One only wonders if he ever manages to finish any more books. That last one was published 2011. In any case, there are so many characters in the books he'll never finish them if he intends to tell all their stories to the end.
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Post by mybudgee on May 21, 2019 18:28:46 GMT
LoL@ You fanboys/fangirls whining about Dany going down a dangerous road (the "peacemaker") & going full Mussolini on everyone's ass... hilarious So... I watched the final 2 episodes yesterday. For one, I was overall MOSTLY satisfied by it. This final season could NEVER live up to all of our expectations. I mean, they've been built up for years. The showrunners did alright with this season, for the most part. I don't feel angry or cheated or anything.
However, there were quite a few things that were kind of lame/cliche or just plain dumb. - The mountain vs the Hound was so awful. Just the setting was sort of cool, nothing else about it felt realistic or satisfying - Jamie & Cersei got off WAY too easy. Gimme a fucking break (No death could be painful enough for her, I suppose) - The part where they mention a representative democracy? Lame & hamfisted. The metaphors with Dany & her pets as WMDs were enough. No need to pander to the audience like this - I'm glad that Jon didn't become some super-hero of Westeros, but he ... goes back to be a crow? WTF? Why? To teach Ghost how to hunt Pheasant? - King Bran the Broken is cool, I like the idea that the best rulers/hands are those who DO NOT lust for the power. However Bran wasn't really himself anymore, so why would he be able to care about the people of the 6 kingdoms? Kinda dumb - I wanted more mysticism & magic in this final episode, it seemedto be too logical at times *shrug*
Overall this season wasn't the best, it certainly should have been. It also wasn't as shitty as season 5 IMHO
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Post by masterwarderz on May 21, 2019 19:14:59 GMT
Well what I have been predicting for years came to pass.
The writers really couldn't write and the show went down in flames for it.
.___. At least I can take solace in my predictive abilities remaining intact.
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Iakus
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Post by Iakus on May 21, 2019 19:16:01 GMT
So... I watched the final 2 episodes yesterday. For one, I was overall MOSTLY satisfied by it. This final season could NEVER live up to all of our expectations. I mean, they've been built up for years. The showrunners did alright with this season, for the most part. I don't feel angry or cheated or anything.
However, there were quite a few things that were kind of lame/cliche or just plain dumb. - The mountain vs the Hound was so awful. Just the setting was sort of cool, nothing else about it felt realistic or satisfying - Jamie & Cersei got off WAY too easy. Gimme a fucking break (No death could be painful enough for her, I suppose) - The part where they mention a representative democracy? Lame & hamfisted. The metaphors with Dany & her pets as WMDs were enough. No need to pander to the audience like this - I'm glad that Jon didn't become some super-hero of Westeros, but he ... goes back to be a crow? WTF? Why? To teach Ghost how to hunt Pheasant? - King Bran the Broken is cool, I like the idea that the best rulers/hands are those who DO NOT lust for the power. However Bran wasn't really himself anymore, so why would he be able to care about the people of the 6 kingdoms? Kinda dumb - I wanted more mysticism & magic in this final episode, it seemedto be too logical at times *shrug*
Overall this season wasn't the best, it certainly should have been. It also wasn't as shitty as season 5 IMHO
I've read a theory that the whole Night's Watch thing was just a ruse to get Grey Worm and Yara off their backs. With no Night King, the Watch serves no purpose anymore. Jon simply went north to live among the Wildlings in peace.
re King Bran: like making Doctor Manhattan president...
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Post by gervaise21 on May 21, 2019 19:51:13 GMT
If Martin had this arc planned out all the way back in 1991, then I tip my hat to him. It's very timely, and very true. I'm sure this is how Martin intended it to end. It is just that he would have taken longer building to the point where Dany had to die. You would also have seen it from her perspective at various points in the narrative, so you would appreciate more why she was acting as she did, possibly even sympathise but also condemn her for becoming a tyrant. Having read the history of the Targaryen kings it seems to me that every Targaryen from Aegon the Conqueror onwards was a tyrant of sorts, particularly whilst they still had their dragons. It was pretty much a case of "if you don't like my way of doing things then burn". Then problems occurred when the person who objected was one of your kin who also had a dragon. Honestly the motto of their house is "Fire and Blood" for a good reason. There is an oft repeated thought in Dany's mind from early on in the series "If I look back I am lost". She constantly focusses on what she hopes to achieve, rather than where she has come from or what she has done to come that far. Also, just before her conquest of Astapor she has a dream of facing the army of the Usurper across the Trident like Rhaegar but instead of a horse she is on a dragon and the usurpers forces are ice. Now this might be a vision of a future confrontation with the White Walkers (possibly further south in the books than in the show) but when she melts them with dragon fire it mentions how she feels this is the way things are meant to be and even though she knows it is a dream she intends making it a reality. At this point she has no idea about the threat in the north of Westros so in her mind it is entirely to do with what she intends to do to anyone who opposes her. Right from the time that she births her dragons she has this sense of destiny that she is going to fulfil and whilst it is easy to cheer her methods when she is freeing slaves from heartless masters, the warnings were there that at some point the Mother of Dragons might eventually become a tyrant just like her ancestors were, mad or not.
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Post by colfoley on May 21, 2019 20:03:12 GMT
So speaking of favorites:
Favorite seasons (from best to worse) 6 4 8 3 2 7 1 5
Favorite characters. Jon Ygritte Tyrion Danny Arya.
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Post by Noxluxe on May 21, 2019 21:16:21 GMT
Favorite seasons from best to worst, off the top of my head: 3 2 8 1 4 6 5 7
Favorite characters: Tywin Mance Stannis Ygritte Jaime Varys Bronn Tyrion Yara
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Post by Onecrazymonkey1 on May 21, 2019 21:30:59 GMT
Favorite characters in no particular order
Arya - she's a survivor. While I understood her desire for vengeance, there were plenty of times I was worried it would absolutely consume her and I didn't want her to lose herself. I'm happy she gave it up in the end.
The Hound - He was never someone I saw as a bad guy. Anyone who grew up with the mountain as a brother and seeing him get rewarded and protected for his violent behavior was bound to have a bleak outlook of the world. The world taught Sandor to be violent.
Davos- One of the few on GOT that seems truly good. His friendship with Shireen was touching and I loved the scenes where she was teaching him how to read. "If he commands you to burn children, then your lord is evil". Beautiful acting, character and scene, I may or may not have shed some tears...
Jaimie - Was someone I started out despising but gradually liked more as the layers were peeled back. When not surrounded by negative influences he began to strike me as someone that wanted to default into doing the right thing. Even his arrogance in the beginning seemed more like a shield against the people that held disdain for him, despite his saving them. I loved his brotherly bond with Tyrion but I hate where his character ended up.
Tyrion- intelligent, witty and a pretty decent guy despite his messed up family always fucking with him.
Sansa - I know a lot didn't like her but I was always rooting for her. She started off very naive and innocent and after all the bullshit she's seen under batshit rulers, it was understandable why she wanted the north to be independent imo.
Varys - Such a pleasure to watch, especially in the early seasons in his conversations with Baelish.
EDIT: Also the good bois if cgi counts. Ghost, Drogon, Rhaegal, Viserion
Favorite seasons from best to worst. It's been a while and my memory is fuzzy, I might end up rethinking the order.
4 1 3 6 2 5 7 8
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