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Post by gervaise21 on May 23, 2019 21:02:04 GMT
Incidentally, there's a theory that Littlefinger's intended target at the Purple Wedding was actually Tyrion, not Joffrey. Littlefinger needed Sansa widowed because most of his plans for her involved marrying her off and the poison was actually in Tyrion's pie, rather than the wine. Tyrion never ate any of the pie before Joffrey stole it for himself, which occurs right before he started choking
Once again, why is Littlefinger even suspected? The books make it quite clear that it is Olenna Tyrell who arranges it and has no reason to want Tyrion dead but every reason to want her grand-daughter out of Joffrey's clutches. Then in the show she admits her responsibility to Jamie. Littlefinger might have been in the know but didn't have control over the target.
In the books it seems more likely that Littlefinger wants Sansa for himself rather than marrying her off to anyone else. It is poor Jenna Poole who ends up being hitched to Ramsey Bolton. This is one plotline where the show seems to have deviated wildly from the books.
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Post by Lavochkin on May 23, 2019 22:17:34 GMT
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Post by colfoley on May 23, 2019 23:08:41 GMT
Been watching this youtuber recently and the presentation is a bit weak but man does he have a lot of interesting things to say:
his theon...theory? actually makes a lot of sense and is one time a fan theory/ suggestion on how to fix the writing actually does sound better then what was presented in any given medium. It also would've solved the...out of nowhereness of it all in my version of those events.
He has a few other interesting points on Jamie for instance so, I'd recommend looking at them.
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Post by Iakus on May 23, 2019 23:44:57 GMT
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on May 24, 2019 0:32:55 GMT
Incidentally, there's a theory that Littlefinger's intended target at the Purple Wedding was actually Tyrion, not Joffrey. Littlefinger needed Sansa widowed because most of his plans for her involved marrying her off and the poison was actually in Tyrion's pie, rather than the wine. Tyrion never ate any of the pie before Joffrey stole it for himself, which occurs right before he started choking
Once again, why is Littlefinger even suspected? The books make it quite clear that it is Olenna Tyrell who arranges it and has no reason to want Tyrion dead but every reason to want her grand-daughter out of Joffrey's clutches. Then in the show she admits her responsibility to Jamie. Littlefinger might have been in the know but didn't have control over the target.
In the books it seems more likely that Littlefinger wants Sansa for himself rather than marrying her off to anyone else. It is poor Jenna Poole who ends up being hitched to Ramsey Bolton. This is one plotline where the show seems to have deviated wildly from the books. He was an accessory after the fact, and almost certainly before. He says he's the one who comissioned the Strangler necklace (I don't know if he's said to have made the hairnet in the novels) and at any rate the pawn who delivers it to Sansa seems to be his creature. Then after Olenna uses it, the same pawn snatches Sansa out of the chaos before she can face a Kangaroo court, and delivers him to Littlefinger, who keeps Sansa from getting it for his and Olenna's shared crime. But yeah, I don't think Tyrion was the target. If he'd gotten the Strangler, that wouldn't have helped Olenna marry Margaery to Tommen. It wouldn't have helped Littlefinger's goals as much either: while it would cause some short-term chaos and might give Dontos a chance to rescue/abduct Sansa it wouldn't cause as much long-term chaos or be as likely to draw attention away from where Sansa was sitting. As for Ramsay marrying Sansa... well, Littlefinger describes the marriage as a temporary thing. And while I think we all know to take everything Littlefinger says with a grain of salt (or the shaker) I believe that was probably his plan. He wants Sansa for himself. This plan makes a bit more sense if he always intended for someone to kill Ramsay. (I'm not sure if that's the plan in the books, since he gives Ramsay a fake Arya instead. But he does intend for Sansa to marry someone, right? I can't imagine that poor man has a happy ending waiting for him.)
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Post by Lavochkin on May 24, 2019 3:50:57 GMT
The best GOT banger.
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N5
The night is dark and full of terrors, but the fire burns them all away.
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Post by House Targaryen on May 24, 2019 3:56:31 GMT
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Post by Noxluxe on May 24, 2019 7:57:48 GMT
A shame Telltale went belly-up. Would've been nice to see Garrett and Rodrick or Asher restored to their family seat after the Battle of the Bastards and fighting the White Walkers, and at King's Landing. And for the bastards of the North Grove to follow and guide Jon back north after the events of the series, introducing him to the magic beyond the Wall. And Rodrick/Asher's career as bannerman to the Queen In The North.
Anyone else feel like replaying that game with the new perspective?
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Post by Reznore on May 24, 2019 8:33:39 GMT
Viewers speak of "Jamie's redemption" - he's always been this vicious prick to me. Yeah, but he seemed to grow something resembling a conscience. Or at least, enough self-awareness to realize there was something very wrong with him. Too bad all that character development went right out the window in the end. He always had a conscience. He learned to be a vicious prick to cover up that conscience. He always liked Tyrion, and never gave him grief for being small or the death of their mother. Unlike his father and sister. He didn't care about his father ambition for him, and sacrificed his future to be with Cersei. He still remembers the Mad King abusing his wife and how that made him unconfortable, and that's when he learns to stuff down his emotions. He killed the Mad King to keep him from harming the population, he didn't take the throne.
The one time he was really brave and stood up for what was right, he was seen as an oathbreaker and caught grief from everyone. Then the circle repeating itself, he was caught powerless watching Robert abuse Cersei. Doing the right thing or being good lost any meaning for him, because it never had any pay off or worse that bite him back in the ass.
That's why he ends up with a huge soft spot for Brienne, because she does good for the sake of good itself, and all the grief just strenghten her resolve.
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2019 11:57:56 GMT
I've never understood how anyone can logically come to the statement that Stannis was the rightful King. Because as long as Joffrey/Tommen and Danaerys exist, all arguments for Stannis actually point to one of them instead.
If you are saying that Robert was the lawful king because he was annointed and sat on the throne, then Joffrey is the lawful king as the next person who was annointed and sat on the throne. If Robert was "rightful", then so was Joffrey. Regardless of whether Joffrey was Robert's blood heir or not. Robert wasn't Aerys' blood heir. But he took the throne when it was open and was accepted by the Faith as the legitimate king. If Robert was legitimate, so was Joffrey. Therefore, Stannis is NOT the rightful heir; Tommen is Joffrey's rightful heir, using this logic, unless someone else comes along and takes it from him. Stannis is a usurper and traitor. If his campaign (in the books) puts him on the throne and he's annointed, then he's the king. But he has to earn that throne like any other usurper. And if he fails in his attempt to usurp, then he's just another failed traitor.
If you are saying that Joffrey is NOT the lawful king because he's not Robert's blood heir, so it should pass to Robert's next blood relative, then this train of logic actually brings you to Danaerys. According to this argument, Joffrey is a usurper and not legitimate. Okay, fine. Then so was Robert. As long as Danaerys lives, Robert's simply a pretender king and Danaerys is the rightful Queen. So it doesn't matter if it's Robert, Joffrey, Stannis, Renly, or Tommen on the throne because they are all usurpers and traitors until Dany reclaims her throne. And if you argue that it's not her throne because she hasn't claimed it, then it's not Stannis' either because he hasn't claimed it either.
The only way that you can get to Stannis being the "rightful" heir is to say that Robert was legitimate because he sat on the throne for some arbitrary and subjective amount of time that is longer than how long Joffrey sat on the throne. That there is some unspoken amount of time that a usurper sits on the throne and then after which they are suddenly legitimate.
Personally, I think Joffrey/Tommen is the "rightful" king because he's on the throne. And if any of the other 5 kings take it from him, then he's is the new rightful king. But Stannis has no more claim to the throne than Danaerys or any of the other claimants.
In the TV show finale, it's a little murkier. The only legitimate Baratheon is Gendry. But he was legitimized by Danaerys. And if you accept her as the Queen, then the Baratheon's never had a claim to begin with. If you accept that the Baratheon's were the rightful rulers, then it's actually Tyrion, I suppose. Since Cersei successfully seized the throne for the Lannisters and she died with no children. I guess it would pass to her younger brother next. And if you accepted Dany as the rightful queen, then there is no legit heir because she was the last Targaryen.
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Post by cribbian on May 24, 2019 13:47:32 GMT
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Post by ScumbagShepurd on May 24, 2019 14:22:18 GMT
he died like he lived. roasting.
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Post by gervaise21 on May 24, 2019 15:17:08 GMT
And if you accepted Dany as the rightful queen, then there is no legit heir because she was the last Targaryen. Except she wasn't. That honour goes to Jon/Aegon. His father was Rhaegar so that makes him at Targaryen. Even if he deferred to Danaerys as his aunt, he is still the heir of their house.
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2019 15:45:42 GMT
And if you accepted Dany as the rightful queen, then there is no legit heir because she was the last Targaryen. Except she wasn't. That honour goes to Jon/Aegon. His father was Rhaegar so that makes him at Targaryen. Even if he deferred to Danaerys as his aunt, he is still the heir of their house. I legit forgot about that plot line because it was so inconsequential. Yeah, Jon is the rightful heir on the show if you believe that the Targaryen’s are ‘rightful’. And I forgot that the Baratheon’s are technically the closest house to the Targaryen’s in the books, so I suppose if it went Jon (abdicated), Dany (dead), then the next one in line following that train of through actually WOULD be Gendry because he was legitimized by Dany as Robert’s son.
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Post by mybudgee on May 24, 2019 17:21:16 GMT
Except she wasn't. That honour goes to Jon/Aegon. His father was Rhaegar so that makes him at Targaryen. Even if he deferred to Danaerys as his aunt, he is still the heir of their house. I legit forgot about that plot line because it was so inconsequential. Yeah, Jon is the rightful heir on the show if you believe that the Targaryen’s are ‘rightful’. And I forgot that the Baratheon’s are technically the closest house to the Targaryen’s in the books, so I suppose if it went Jon (abdicated), Dany (dead), then the next one in line following that train of through actually WOULD be Gendry because he was legitimized by Dany as Robert’s son. Gendry or Jon would make a fine King, if something were ever to happen to Bran the Broken
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Post by Noxluxe on May 24, 2019 17:55:23 GMT
I legit forgot about that plot line because it was so inconsequential. Yeah, Jon is the rightful heir on the show if you believe that the Targaryen’s are ‘rightful’. And I forgot that the Baratheon’s are technically the closest house to the Targaryen’s in the books, so I suppose if it went Jon (abdicated), Dany (dead), then the next one in line following that train of through actually WOULD be Gendry because he was legitimized by Dany as Robert’s son. Gendry or Jon would make a fine King, if something were ever to happen to Bran the Broken Jon most likely won't be within shouting distance of King's Landing for quite a while. And as a sworn man of the Night's Watch again, who was never officially recognized as a Targaryan, I seriously doubt he'd ever be recognized as a candidate. Wouldn't it be funny if the throne ended up right back in Baratheon hands after all that fuss? That said, I'm not sure I agree with your assessment of Gendry either. He seems like a good guy, and a decent journeyman smith. That doesn't necessarily make him administrator material. I admit I winced a bit when Daenaerys legitimized him and made him lord of Storm's End. Renly's old bannermen are going to run circles around him. Maybe he'll be a good lord in a few decades?
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Post by Iakus on May 24, 2019 18:08:09 GMT
Gendry or Jon would make a fine King, if something were ever to happen to Bran the Broken Jon most likely won't be within shouting distance of King's Landing for quite a while. And as a sworn man of the Night's Watch again, who was never officially recognized as a Targaryan, I seriously doubt he'd ever be recognized as a candidate. Wouldn't it be funny if the throne ended up right back in Baratheon hands after all that fuss? That said, I'm not sure I agree with your assessment of Gendry either. He seems like a good guy, and a decent journeyman smith. That doesn't necessarily make him administrator material. I admit I winced a bit when Daenaerys legitimized him and made him lord of Storm's End. Renly's old bannermen are going to run circles around him. Maybe he'll be a good lord in a few decades? He'd probably do okay if Davos has his back.
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Post by Iakus on May 24, 2019 18:08:20 GMT
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Post by House Targaryen on May 24, 2019 19:17:56 GMT
The most useless armed force got a negative rating.
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House Targaryen
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Post by House Targaryen on May 24, 2019 19:20:55 GMT
Speaking of ratings.
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Post by ScumbagShepurd on May 24, 2019 19:48:32 GMT
And as a sworn man of the Night's Watch again is he though? One of their multiple fuckups within the last ep was that the visual of Jon heading to the "real" North was open to interpretations. Was he just escorting the wildlings as a NW brother? Or was he leaving with them?
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Post by HYR on May 24, 2019 19:59:38 GMT
I feel sorry for all ya'll who were invested since a while ago for it to end like this. I only got into it this year. It was no less a buzzkill, but I wasn't watching with YEARS of anticipation building up inside.
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Post by Noxluxe on May 24, 2019 22:10:47 GMT
I feel sorry for all ya'll who were invested since a while ago for it to end like this. I only got into it this year. It was no less a buzzkill, but I wasn't watching with YEARS of anticipation building up inside. Meh. I have no sympathy whatsoever. Anyone old enough to have been invested in this series from the beginning should be old enough not to take a good television show having a mediocre ending personally by now. And as a sworn man of the Night's Watch again is he though? One of their multiple fuckups within the last ep was that the visual of Jon heading to the "real" North was open to interpretations. Was he just escorting the wildlings as a NW brother? Or was he leaving with them? It doesn't really matter, for the purposes of his hypothetical candidacy as King of the Six Kingdoms. Nobody in the south cares one bit what he does once he's up there, but they had to negotiate to get him sentenced to the Wall and did so in good faith. It's official, so far as they're concerned. Which makes it rather unlikely for them to then break the law and vote him in as their ruler, assuming he's even within raven-distance of Westeros proper by then. As for the ambiguity, I don't mind. He's either leaving for good to join the wildlings or simply escorting them with the intention of helping them settle and then reporting back and maybe functioning as a liaison. Either makes perfect sense, and fits him well for a retirement plan. And one could easily result in the other quite naturally in any case. It'd be cool if he became King Beyond the Wall in the way Mance did, by living among them and helping them improve their lives and resolve their conflicts and earning their trust and admiration. Maybe a leadership that he gradually adopted and earned every step of the way, rather than it being suddenly thrust upon him to help a crisis, would be the kind he could finally accept and feel deserving of. One thing this ending is undeniably good for is an assload of great fanfiction fodder.
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Post by Iakus on May 24, 2019 22:17:59 GMT
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Post by dazk on May 25, 2019 2:13:35 GMT
LOL my son and I both simultaneously said BUT the inks not dry when she did it!!!!!
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