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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 3, 2017 18:31:41 GMT
Plus the innocent family he butchered were nobles and Sera doesn't care about nobles. Who knows, that's speculation with no proof. Blackwall accepted a contract for a single political target. He didn't expect the family to be there. Not really. Not liking nobles is kind of Sera's thing. He didn't call it off once he did know, though.
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Post by opuspace on Feb 3, 2017 18:42:00 GMT
Who knows, that's speculation with no proof. Blackwall accepted a contract for a single political target. He didn't expect the family to be there. Not really. Not liking nobles is kind of Sera's thing. He didn't call it off once he did know, though. Of course, because naturally, that means Sera would accept kids getting killed. And that's because he panicked. A completely normal and flawed reaction. You don't go on and on about how Josephine killed someone when she could have avoided it?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 3, 2017 18:52:48 GMT
Not really. Not liking nobles is kind of Sera's thing. He didn't call it off once he did know, though. Of course, because naturally, that means Sera would accept kids getting killed. And that's because he panicked. A completely normal and flawed reaction. You don't go on and on about how Josephine killed someone when she could have avoided it? She thinks all nobles are trouble, so wouldn't be surprised if she just saw it as dealing with them before they hurt other people. Plus she doesn't care about collateral damage until her loyalty quest makes her realize her actions can hurt those she is trying to help as well as those she is trying to harm. I don't buy that excuse. He is an experienced soldier so the stress of battle is nothing new to him, and he even says that is how those things often go. Because that is a completely different situation. The person with Josephine died while she was defending herself and even then was an accident. To say that and slaughtering a family of innocent people for gold are similar is objectively ridiculous.
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Post by opuspace on Feb 3, 2017 19:16:40 GMT
She thinks all nobles are trouble, so wouldn't be surprised if she just saw it as dealing with them before they hurt other people. Plus she doesn't care about collateral damage until her loyalty quest makes her realize her actions can hurt those she is trying to help as well as those she is trying to harm. I don't buy that excuse. He is an experienced soldier so the stress of battle is nothing new to him, and he even says that is how those things often go. Because that is a completely different situation. The person with Josephine died while she was defending herself and even then was an accident. To say that and slaughtering a family of innocent people for gold are similar is objectively ridiculous. All nobles? That's a fairly wide net without taking into consideration for why she despises them. She clearly can discern between those who are decent and those are not. Otherwise, a Trevelyan would never be able to romance her. And I wouldn't dare presume to know how a soldier is supposed to react to unknown situations. I've seen veterans come up and admit that no one knows how they're going to react until it happens. But if we applied that expectation that someone should have enough control over themselves to act accordingly in a high stress situation then Josephine is highly guilty for not finding a different way to incapacitate the one attacking her. She could have kneed him, called for help or any other assortment of reactions instead of leading to his death. What's worse is that she never atoned for killing him. It's not an argument about whose crime is worse; it's about what the perpetrator is expected to do for committing it in the first place. Blackwall never intended for that family to die but you expect atonement. Josephine never expected to kill that young man but she did. By those standards, Josephine SHOULD be making it up to the family of that young man who would be hurt by it.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 3, 2017 19:22:56 GMT
But if we applied that expectation that someone should have enough control over themselves to act accordingly in a high stress situation then Josephine is highly guilty for not finding a different way to incapacitate the one attacking her. She could have kneed him, called for help or any other assortment of reactions instead of leading to his death. What's worse is that she never atoned for killing him. It's not an argument about whose crime is worse; it's about what the perpetrator is expected to do for committing it in the first place. Blackwall never intended for that family to die but you expect atonement. Josephine never expected to kill that young man but she did. By those standards, Josephine SHOULD be making it up to the family of that young man who would be hurt by it. She pushed him. That's all she did. I can't think of a more passive way to defend yourself and incapacitate an attacker. She didn't see the stairs behind him because hey, there was a guy trying to kill her blocking her view. There is no evidence that Josephine hasn't atoned even though she shouldn't need to since she is the victim, while we know Rainier hasn't done squat for the relatives and friends of the Callier family. So let me get this straight. If an assassin tries to kill the target and results in the target accidentally killing the assassin by sending them falling down stairs, you think the target should have to make it up to the assassin's family and that they are just as guilty as a contract killer who assassinated an entire innocent family in a brutal fashion?
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Post by opuspace on Feb 3, 2017 19:39:57 GMT
So let me get this straight. If a robber breaks into a house and tries to kill the homeowner of said house and results in the homeowner accidentally killing the robber by sending them falling down stairs, you think the homeowner should have to make it up to the robber's family and that they are just as guilty as a contract killer who assassinated an entire family? Not to mention there is no evidence that Josephine hasn't done exactly that, while we know Rainier hasn't done squat for the relatives of the Callier family. It's a poor analogy because Josephine intentionally took on a Bard's career knowing the consequences. She was an active participant and she doesn't hide that even she believes she could have done something different. It certainly isn't as though she was just attending to her studies and someone attacked her. She agreed to become a Bard. And I don't see how no evidence means she did anything for that family. If anything, she still is playing the Game, knowing full well that it ruins people's lives and is willing to do the same such as when she suggested ruining that marriage or letting an entire family steal another's inheritance and lie about it. Blackwall doesn't have any surviving members to make it up to but he's been working his tail off saving people's lives like how farmer Giles said without payment in return. No matter the ending, he doesn't go killing innocents since because of what happened to the Calliers and even Cole is saying that he's trying to make it up to them even though he can't. "Carrying the bodies" so he doesn't forget. He is at least trying. But if that's not sufficient, we can always compare him to Leliana, whom I recall you saying is "good enough".
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 3, 2017 19:56:40 GMT
So let me get this straight. If a robber breaks into a house and tries to kill the homeowner of said house and results in the homeowner accidentally killing the robber by sending them falling down stairs, you think the homeowner should have to make it up to the robber's family and that they are just as guilty as a contract killer who assassinated an entire family? Not to mention there is no evidence that Josephine hasn't done exactly that, while we know Rainier hasn't done squat for the relatives of the Callier family. It's a poor analogy because Josephine intentionally took on a Bard's career knowing the consequences. She was an active participant and she doesn't hide that even she believes she could have done something different. It certainly isn't as though she was just attending to her studies and someone attacked her. She agreed to become a Bard. And I don't see how no evidence means she did anything for that family. If anything, she still is playing the Game, knowing full well that it ruins people's lives and is willing to do the same such as when she suggested ruining that marriage or letting an entire family steal another's inheritance and lie about it. Blackwall doesn't have any surviving members to make it up to but he's been working his tail off saving people's lives like how farmer Giles said without payment in return. No matter the ending, he doesn't go killing innocents since because of what happened to the Calliers and even Cole is saying that he's trying to make it up to them even though he can't. "Carrying the bodies" so he doesn't forget. He is at least trying. But if that's not sufficient, we can always compare him to Leliana, whom I recall you saying is "good enough". No, she only joined because she knew only of the romanticized version. Cole ingame and her writer even say what she saw a Bard being and did it, that being she danced, played a musical instrument, and made polite conversation. Her first time as a Bard in the vein of Leliana and Marjolaine kind was the time we are talking about and she quits immediately after because it was not what she thought it was and resulted in a man's death as she defended herself. She thinks she could have done something different because of guilt. You see this all the time. For example parents who lose a child to an accident or disease always think about if they did something different their child could still be alive. You're the one trying to slander a person's character, so the burden of proof is on you. We see her feelings on the matter and how it is the catalyst to her pacifism and trying to make the world better through peaceful means. I doubt that. Unless both of the parents were only childs to parents who are dead and also only childs so no extended family, there were relatives to make it up to. Oh, you mean the farmers he trains to fight off the bandits that are after him because one is one of his soldiers he left to take the heat as a scapegoat while he ran? Yeah, he had absolutely nothing to gain from that. I don't accept his 'trying' attempt since he did it while hiding himself. As Cassandra put it, "A man who truly aspired to be righteous would not lie. He would earn respect, not steal the respect due another." I only accept that he is trying to atone after he owns up to it. That is certainly a more equivalent comparison of crimes, though if we want a real actual comparison it would probably be Sten or Zevran but I don't defend the latter of those at all. Though fair warning, I don't defend Leliana's actions. Unlike Rainier though, she at least tries to atone in the same vein he does but from the beginning.
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Post by opuspace on Feb 3, 2017 20:31:04 GMT
No, she only joined because she knew only of the romanticized version. Cole ingame and her writer even say what she saw a Bard being and did it, that being she danced, played a musical instrument, and made polite conversation. Her first time as a Bard in the vein of Leliana and Marjolaine kind was the time we are talking about and she quits immediately after because it was not what she thought it was and resulted in a man's death as she defended herself. She thinks she could have done something different because of guilt. You see this all the time. For example parents who lose a child to an accident or disease always think about if they did something different their child could still be alive. You're the one trying to slander a person's character, so the burden of proof is on you. We see her feelings on the matter and how it is the catalyst to her pacifism and trying to make the world better through peaceful means. I doubt that. Unless both of the parents were only childs to parents who are dead and also only childs so no extended family, there were relatives to make it up to. Oh, you mean the farmers he trains to fight off the bandits that are after him because one is one of his soldiers he left to take the heat as a scapegoat while he ran? Yeah, he had absolutely nothing to gain from that. I don't accept his 'trying' attempt since he did it while hiding himself. As Cassandra put it, "A man who truly aspired to be righteous would not lie. He would earn respect, not steal the respect due another." I only accept that he is trying to atone after he owns up to it. That is certainly a more equivalent comparison of crimes, though if we want a real actual comparison it would probably be Sten or Zevran but I don't defend the latter of those at all. Though fair warning, I don't defend Leliana's actions. Unlike Rainier though, she at least tries to atone in the same vein he does but from the beginning. How about that, Josephine made a poor decision based on a misconception and regretted it afterwards. It resulted in someone's death but that's ok, she didn't mean to. She knew ahead of time that secrets and espionage were involved, for why else did she feel the need to defend her patron? Because she knew Bards murdered. And I'm afraid I'll have to disagree on slander. I'm not the one going onto your fan thread to condemn Josephine. Applying your moral compass onto others like her though is only fair given how passionately you've frequented the Blackwall fan threads even though they've left you alone outside of it. There's a noticeable similarity between her and Blackwall in that they've both devoted themselves to change because of those disasters. However, making things better is questionable since Josephine was willing to bribe the Ghislain clan to hush up and let the d'Amerides continue stealing Ameridan's name and lying to the public about it. Even after the truth comes out, Blackwall is still trying to help others when given the chance. It supports that he was genuine about helping people in the first place and remains consistent with his actions. And Blackwall DOES own up to his actions. What was confessing on that scaffold all about? And it's ironic you're still quoting Cassandra since she had no problem lying to Dorian about the Seekers. You may not deny Leliana does terrible things but neither do I see you giving her fan threads the same repeated amount of contempt and energy reminding her fans the various ways she's a terrible person.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 3, 2017 20:42:45 GMT
She was unable to prevent it, Rainier was. She was the victim, Rainier was not. Those are huge differences. But clearly you think victims should be just as harshly treated as mass murderers, so there is no point continuing trying to explain the difference. I just pray you are never anywhere near a criminal justice system. As I said, from the moment he confesses on the gallows and everything past that I consider actual atonement. I don't get how that was confusing. I don't consider what he did while pretending to be Blackwall as genuine atonement. The moment he drops that alias, it then is. How is that ironic? Lying about an organization because you have a biased opinion is not the same as an act of identity theft for multiple years. Cassandra never hides behind the Seekers or others for her actions. I don't see her fan thread excusing her of her past actions either, unlike here. In fact that is almost never a conversation that comes up. If it did, I would respond. Also, before this conversation I have posted in this thread literally twice so I've almost never brought it up in here either. But good to know you think this "Discussion" thread should just be an echo chamber.
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Post by opuspace on Feb 3, 2017 21:09:36 GMT
She was unable to prevent it, Rainier was. She was the victim, Rainier was not. Those are huge differences. But clearly you think victims should be just as harshly treated as mass murderers, so there is no point continuing trying to explain the difference. I just pray you are never anywhere near a criminal justice system. As I said, from the moment he confesses on the gallows and everything past that I consider actual atonement. I don't get how that was confusing. I don't consider what he did while pretending to be Blackwall as genuine atonement. The moment he drops that alias, it then is. How is that ironic? Lying about an organization because you have a biased opinion is not the same as an act of identity theft for multiple years. Cassandra never hides behind the Seekers or others for her actions. I don't see her fan thread excusing her of her past actions either, unlike here. That's a matter of perspective for if you expect Blackwall to be able to control himself in a high stress situation then so should we expect Josephine to control her actions as well. By that logic, she certainly could have prevented it. It's hardly blaming the victims when she's admitted to responsibility. So selective lying is ok? Covering up the dirty laundry of a corrupted organization is while getting huffy about someone else's lie is hypocritical no matter which way it's spun. I'm afraid we're hitting an impasse here. You think the fanbase here is excusing his actions. I disagree. But you not discussing Leliana's actions in her own thread what you find morally reprehensible while doing it here is a double standard. Just because we're not going on about what a scumbag he was doesn't mean we'd ever be ok with him slipping back again.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 3, 2017 21:24:38 GMT
She was unable to prevent it, Rainier was. She was the victim, Rainier was not. Those are huge differences. But clearly you think victims should be just as harshly treated as mass murderers, so there is no point continuing trying to explain the difference. I just pray you are never anywhere near a criminal justice system. As I said, from the moment he confesses on the gallows and everything past that I consider actual atonement. I don't get how that was confusing. I don't consider what he did while pretending to be Blackwall as genuine atonement. The moment he drops that alias, it then is. How is that ironic? Lying about an organization because you have a biased opinion is not the same as an act of identity theft for multiple years. Cassandra never hides behind the Seekers or others for her actions. I don't see her fan thread excusing her of her past actions either, unlike here. That's a matter of perspective for if you expect Blackwall to be able to control himself in a high stress situation then so should we expect Josephine to control her actions as well. By that logic, she certainly could have prevented it. It's hardly blaming the victims when she's admitted to responsibility. So selective lying is ok? Covering up the dirty laundry of a corrupted organization is while getting huffy about someone else's lie is hypocritical no matter which way it's spun. I'm afraid we're hitting an impasse here. You think the fanbase here is excusing his actions. I disagree. But you not discussing Leliana's actions in her own thread what you find morally reprehensible while doing it here is a double standard. Just because we're not going on about what a scumbag he was doesn't mean we'd ever be ok with him slipping back again. How could she have prevented it? I really want to know. She didn't see the stairs since they were behind her attacker. She couldn't do nothing since that would result in her death. She couldn't call out for help because nobody was near them. So what could she have done? As I've said before, people who are innocent can still feel responsible. That doesn't make then suddenly guilty. For Rainier, a completely different situation. He set the ambush up. He has commanded his men through chaos before. He could have called them off the moment he heard them singing, which by the way really doesn't support the notion that it was too chaotic since he was able to get close enough before those inside freaked out at the combat outside. What lie are you referring to specifically? I see you quoted before I put in my edits. But yes, I do. I've seen conversations that have excused him of his actions, or at least try to justify them as not the atrocity they are. As for not discussing it in Leliana's, as I put in my edit that topic has never come up on this forum. Even here in this thread I have only posted twice before today. And I've never said you have to only discuss him negatively, so please don't put words in my mouth. But people should be allowed to express negative opinions as well.
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Post by opuspace on Feb 3, 2017 21:46:05 GMT
How could she have prevented it? I really want to know. She didn't see the stairs since they were behind her attacker. She couldn't do nothing since that would result in her death. She couldn't call out for help because nobody was near them. So what could she have done? As I've said before, people who are innocent can still feel responsible. That doesn't make then suddenly guilty. For Rainier, a completely different situation. He set the ambush up. He has commanded his men through chaos before. He could have called them off the moment he heard them singing, which by the way really doesn't support the notion that it was too chaotic since he was able to get close enough before those inside freaked out at the combat outside. What lie are you referring to specifically? I see you quoted before I put in my edits. But yes, I do. I've seen conversations that have excused him of his actions, or at least try to justify them as not the atrocity they are. As for not discussing it in Leliana's, as I put in my edit that topic has never come up on this forum. Even here in this thread I have only posted twice before today. And I've never said you have to only discuss him negatively, so please don't put words in my mouth. But people should be allowed to express negative opinions as well. The point I'm making with our entire argument is that applying your standards for Blackwall to Josephine means setting unrealistic expectations upon her the way I believe you're applying to Blackwall. Trying to say she could have called for help but not be heard is the same as if I said that Blackwall could have shouted at them to stop and they wouldn't hear him. It's all speculation at that point. As for Cassandra's lie: Dorian: Incidentally, Cassandra, I'm well aware you lied to me. Cassandra: I lied to you. Dorian: When you said the Mage Rebellion was beyond the power of the Seekers to control? I've since heard your Order could have prevented it, but instead led the Templars into war once it started. Cassandra: It... is why I left the Order, yes. Dorian: Knee-jerk defense of your former comrades? I quite understand. I don't know about you, but a lie is a lie. I'm not going to make excuses for Blackwall about how stupid it was that he kept the truth from the Inquisitor, and I certainly am not ok with Cassandra covering for someone else's corruption. The topic of Blackwall's crimes wasn't the current focus here and that didn't stop you. By all means, start up the topic in Leliana's thread about how she went on a murder spree of anyone who disagreed with her as an non-persuaded Divine. It'd be morally negligible to let the uglier sides of her actions go unnoticed if it's so important to point out Blackwall's here. I've yet to see any Blackwall fan not defend your right to post here, but I also wonder how much you'd like it if someone wanted to complain over and over in the Josephine thread about Josephine staring at Bull's nakedness even when she's aware Bull is in a relationship with someone. I can imagine they'd have a right to be offended that she's being so disrespectful towards the Inquisitor.
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Post by lobselvith8 on Feb 4, 2017 19:34:55 GMT
For Rainier, a completely different situation. He set the ambush up. He has commanded his men through chaos before. He could have called them off the moment he heard them singing, which by the way really doesn't support the notion that it was too chaotic since he was able to get close enough before those inside freaked out at the combat outside. But Rainier doesn't pretend as if that was excusable; he even spends his entire life trying to make up for it. He becomes Blackwall, he helps farmers learn how to defend themselves from bandits, he offers the Grey Warden treaties to the Inquisition so they can call on allies to prevent the apocalypse, and he is willing to die instead of letting even one more person perish for his mistakes. Blackwall isn't perfect (and I think the case could easily be made that absolutely no one in Inquisition's main cast is, Josephine included), but he clearly isn't a villain in the way individuals like Howe. I've seen conversations that have excused him of his actions, or at least try to justify them as not the atrocity they are. I've read a plethora of people acknowledge that Blackwall made a mistake, but who like him despite that because he never whitewashed his actions; he took full responsibility for them, and changed his entire life because he wanted to be a different person. If you give him a second chance, he even spends his post-Inquisition life trying to give folks hope. As per his Epilogue: "Thom Rainier was shown mercy when none was deserved, and set on a path of redemption. This gift, so compassionately given, needed to be shared. Freed from his obligations to the Inquisition, Rainier traveled Thedas, giving hope to the condemned and the forgotten. In the deepest prisons and pits of Thedas, he found, if not goodness itself, its potential. By showing faith in those who had none, Rainier lifted them up and made them into something better than they were." And I've never said you have to only discuss him negatively, so please don't put words in my mouth. But people should be allowed to express negative opinions as well. I don't think anyone has an issue with having a critical eye towards a character, but if someone was discussing Josephine negatively in her thread the way you are in this thread, would you honestly feel the same way?
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Post by opuspace on Feb 4, 2017 21:39:52 GMT
lobselvith8Thank you for putting that better than I could. I don't blame people for not liking him, but considering this is for all intents and purposes a fan thread, what exactly is one supposed to expect? This place has done more discussion on why he sucks than any actual fan content. If having nothing but positive commentary on a fan thread makes it an echo chamber then one may as well call the others that.
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Post by smellycatbutts on Feb 6, 2017 1:00:15 GMT
Makes me want to finish my character who started up a romance with Blackwall! Managed also to make use of the unibrow in the CC too!
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Post by opuspace on Feb 6, 2017 1:31:48 GMT
Makes me want to finish my character who started up a romance with Blackwall! Managed also to make use of the unibrow in the CC too! Oh lord, there's a unibrow feature? I must have blocked it out of my mind...
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Post by smellycatbutts on Feb 6, 2017 4:24:57 GMT
Makes me want to finish my character who started up a romance with Blackwall! Managed also to make use of the unibrow in the CC too! Oh lord, there's a unibrow feature? I must have blocked it out of my mind... Fear not, I shall make the memory clear in your mind! (Also see my profile pic for f!dwarf hirsutism. )
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Post by opuspace on Feb 6, 2017 4:26:18 GMT
Oh lord, there's a unibrow feature? I must have blocked it out of my mind... Fear not, I shall make the memory clear in your mind! Holy nuts, your Inquisitor makes it look good! That's talent with the character creator!
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Post by smellycatbutts on Feb 6, 2017 4:28:11 GMT
Fear not, I shall make the memory clear in your mind! Holy nuts, your Inquisitor makes it look good! That's talent with the character creator! You for real? Honestly, I was going for homey, plain jane with that one.
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Post by opuspace on Feb 6, 2017 4:37:11 GMT
Holy nuts, your Inquisitor makes it look good! That's talent with the character creator! You for real? Honestly, I was going for homey, plain jane with that one. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder! I've seen stranger looking people in real life. Your Inquisitor, if the eyebrows were covered, would still look normal since she's within the golden ratio. Her features are very symmetrical, which is what plays a large part in how attractive someone is.
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Post by smellycatbutts on Feb 6, 2017 4:52:04 GMT
You for real? Honestly, I was going for homey, plain jane with that one. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder! I've seen stranger looking people in real life. Your Inquisitor, if the eyebrows were covered, would still look normal since she's within the golden ratio. Her features are very symmetrical, which is what plays a large part in how attractive someone is. Well thank you , although, I had made my pretty, pretty princess inquisitor already. Oh look, a bloodied, "where'd the Buddha belly go?" Blackwall. Now we're back on topic! Also, Blackwall unyieldingly defends his love from Giant crotch (literally).
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Post by opuspace on Feb 6, 2017 4:59:28 GMT
Auugh!! My eyes! Why did I look?! Awesome screenshots, I will say! (I figure that gambeson he wore was what gave him that paunchy look)
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PCthug
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 251 Likes: 846
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pcthug
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by PCthug on Feb 6, 2017 17:32:34 GMT
Oh lord, there's a unibrow feature? I must have blocked it out of my mind... Fear not, I shall make the memory clear in your mind! (Also see my profile pic for f!dwarf hirsutism. ) I have to say, I always love seeing your Inquisitors (you've posted on the sliders reddit too, right?). They always look so unique and more like real people. I also like the fact you don't shy away from the more...challenging features available in the character creator.
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smellycatbutts
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
Posts: 473 Likes: 812
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smellycatbutts
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by smellycatbutts on Feb 6, 2017 22:17:20 GMT
Fear not, I shall make the memory clear in your mind! (Also see my profile pic for f!dwarf hirsutism. ) I have to say, I always love seeing your Inquisitors (you've posted on the sliders reddit too, right?). They always look so unique and more like real people. I also like the fact you don't shy away from the more...challenging features available in the character creator. Oh wow, thank you! Yes, I posted a comely f!qunari, badass f!dwarf, and a m!human nerdquisitor on the reddit DAI sliders page. Romantical:
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2017 1:19:15 GMT
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