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Post by Ruliya on Oct 24, 2017 2:15:02 GMT
Did you? My apologies, I tend to skim read long posts. But again, later series' had the Xindi, the 'romulan' stuff which just wasn't canon at the time. I think you're vastly overlooking TNG, which in my mind is where most of the canon is begun, TOS, bless it, always will be a product of its time, tech and story wise. But it still has a lot of stuff, which I'm pretty certain TNG stuck too, coz Rodenberry was still alive for the first few years. DS9 did good with its own continuity, and coz it overlapped with the end of TNG held up some stuff there. I think we can all agree Voyager was where they began to do whatever they wanted. RIP true Q and Borg To point 2, yes, when it's relevant. Many times in Trek has past atrocities been brought up, in TNG they brought up stuff about their WW3, and the aftermath culture several times - usually in the Q episodes. Q was the best. They mention the Tomed Incident, one with the Romulans that iirc ended with the treaty of Algeron and the banning of Federation cloaking tech. Bad stuff is brought up when context matters. Speaking of cloaking tech, the canon rule as I remember it is the Klingons gave the Romulans ship designs (which is why Romulan ships in TOS were D7 types) and the Romulans gave the Klingons cloaking tech. Now it's been so long since I've watched Enterprise I don't remember if the Klingons have cloaks or not. I remember the Romulans do though. To point 3: Quite brilliant indeed, so brilliant in fact you gave yourself your own problem. Why wouldn't have Voyager have tried that? It would have to be in the logs somewhere. They tried a multitude of Delta Quadrant tech. Some were pretty far fetched too. But then Voyager was never meant for a quick trip home, that would have ruined the series Also as an addendum, one of the reasons I love TNG and Picard the most: Yes it mentioned some events but that does not follow that theyd have to mention all the events. The only way that the Xindi stuff would be a lore break is if a future episode of Trek specifically mentioned that part of Florida being intact (or something along those lines). But then again they were slightly dealing with time travel too... I doubt the Voyager could have used it. Granted we do not know how yet but I would not be the least bit surprised if by the end of the series, or maybe even the end of the season, the S-Drive proves ultimatley unviable. Or...well illega. Afterall Stamets did conduct illegal experiments to get the thing working the second time. It could be possible that Starfleet just wiped it from the record. The cloaking device the Klingons have is similarly unique. Granted we do not know the details but it has been made very clear the rest of the Empire does not have access to the technology. Yet. And again something likely will happen to keep it from them so they have to go to the Romulans in the Kirk era. I think the Xindi thing might have come up. The Breen attack on Earth for example, is said to be the first direct attack on Earth since... well the line is more or less "the first successful attack in nearly two centuries" which the Xindi attack falls behind. So I'll grant you that. Double checked that one, lucky I don't have egg on my face lol. I still think the temporal war was the stupidest idea ever... it made a mess and mockery of a lot of Trek lore. Voyager couldn't have used it coz it's fiction. Unless, the only data known, that let Stamets become a human... tardigrade is lost forever and ever. There's just too many leaps to join Discovery to Primeverse. Just like with Enterprise, imo. As to the Klingon Cloak.. it was on a ship that was supposed to be what? 100 years old at the time? a random unique, derelict vessel? Plus that doesn't explain all Klingon's randomly ignoring the genetic effects that happen within TOS. The mention of The Constitution Class and the Enterprise just seemed like a name drop placation to me, a weak attempt. We know AR's have those classes and that name. Does not convince me otherwise that this is still not Primeverse.
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Post by colfoley on Oct 24, 2017 2:17:36 GMT
Yes it mentioned some events but that does not follow that theyd have to mention all the events. The only way that the Xindi stuff would be a lore break is if a future episode of Trek specifically mentioned that part of Florida being intact (or something along those lines). But then again they were slightly dealing with time travel too... I doubt the Voyager could have used it. Granted we do not know how yet but I would not be the least bit surprised if by the end of the series, or maybe even the end of the season, the S-Drive proves ultimatley unviable. Or...well illega. Afterall Stamets did conduct illegal experiments to get the thing working the second time. It could be possible that Starfleet just wiped it from the record. The cloaking device the Klingons have is similarly unique. Granted we do not know the details but it has been made very clear the rest of the Empire does not have access to the technology. Yet. And again something likely will happen to keep it from them so they have to go to the Romulans in the Kirk era. I think the Xindi thing might have come up. The Breen attack on Earth for example, is said to be the first direct attack on Earth since... well the line is more or less "the first successful attack in nearly two centuries" which the Xindi attack falls behind. So I'll grant you that. Double checked that one, lucky I don't have egg on my face lol. I still think the temporal war was the stupidest idea ever... it made a mess and mockery of a lot of Trek lore. Voyager couldn't have used it coz it's fiction. Unless, the only data known, that let Stamets become a human... tardigrade is lost forever and ever. There's just too many leaps to join Discovery to Primeverse. Just like with Enterprise, imo. As to the Klingon Cloak.. it was on a ship that was supposed to be what? 100 years old at the time? a random unique, derelict vessel? Plus that doesn't explain all Klingon's randomly ignoring the genetic effects that happen within TOS. The mention of The Constitution Class and the Enterprise just seemed like a name drop placation to me, a weak attempt. We know AR's have those classes and that name. Does not convince me otherwise that this is still not Primeverse. Its been said to take place in the prime universe by the show runners.
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Post by Ruliya on Oct 24, 2017 2:21:18 GMT
I think the Xindi thing might have come up. The Breen attack on Earth for example, is said to be the first direct attack on Earth since... well the line is more or less "the first successful attack in nearly two centuries" which the Xindi attack falls behind. So I'll grant you that. Double checked that one, lucky I don't have egg on my face lol. I still think the temporal war was the stupidest idea ever... it made a mess and mockery of a lot of Trek lore. Voyager couldn't have used it coz it's fiction. Unless, the only data known, that let Stamets become a human... tardigrade is lost forever and ever. There's just too many leaps to join Discovery to Primeverse. Just like with Enterprise, imo. As to the Klingon Cloak.. it was on a ship that was supposed to be what? 100 years old at the time? a random unique, derelict vessel? Plus that doesn't explain all Klingon's randomly ignoring the genetic effects that happen within TOS. The mention of The Constitution Class and the Enterprise just seemed like a name drop placation to me, a weak attempt. We know AR's have those classes and that name. Does not convince me otherwise that this is still not Primeverse. Its been said to take place in the prime universe by the show runners. So was Enterprise. That doesn't technically make it true. All the inconsistencies cannot be explained away. If you want to believe it, more power to you. It cannot be so in a logical mind, as most of it is contradictory. Maybe I'm too Vulcan.
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Post by colfoley on Oct 24, 2017 2:25:22 GMT
Its been said to take place in the prime universe by the show runners. So was Enterprise. That doesn't technically make it true. All the inconsistencies cannot be explained away. If you want to believe it, more power to you. It cannot be so in a logical mind, as most of it is contradictory. Maybe I'm too Vulcan. Its not a matter of belief its a matter of self-identification and fact. In like ninety nine percent of cases if someone calls themselves something, or call a particular work that they are doing, some specific things, then I defer to them. This goes for real life politics, video game genres (I don't think Witcher 3 is a great RPG, but its creators call it one so I have to defer)...and Discovery is set in the Prime Universe. Fine it has inconsistencies but a lot of writing has internal inconsistencies. Even some really great and beloved works like Game of Thrones, Star Trek (before Discover), Stargate, etc. etc.
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Post by Ruliya on Oct 24, 2017 2:34:10 GMT
So was Enterprise. That doesn't technically make it true. All the inconsistencies cannot be explained away. If you want to believe it, more power to you. It cannot be so in a logical mind, as most of it is contradictory. Maybe I'm too Vulcan. Its not a matter of belief its a matter of self-identification and fact. In like ninety nine percent of cases if someone calls themselves something, or call a particular work that they are doing, some specific things, then I defer to them. This goes for real life politics, video game genres (I don't think Witcher 3 is a great RPG, but its creators call it one so I have to defer)...and Discovery is set in the Prime Universe. Fine it has inconsistencies but a lot of writing has internal inconsistencies. Even some really great and beloved works like Game of Thrones, Star Trek (before Discover), Stargate, etc. etc. I get what you're trying to say, I use to be a huge marvel fan. Tbf, I still am. But we've reached a point where people have the fave continuities coz they can reset so easily. Trek is becoming like this, and I deny it. Your analogy is wrong btw, doesn't matter if the Witcher 3 is a shit RPG or not. It's if the Witcher 3 had an entirely new continuity that was never in Witcher 1 or 2. That's when you begin to wonder if it should slot in to what you know to be true. Your GoT's analogy is wrong too, because it has been established that Book Canon and TV Canon are in fact different. Almost like an AR.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2017 3:01:08 GMT
OMG, OMG, second season confirmed! V.happy! Just watched Episode 6. G;lad Ash did make it into the cast, and some veeery dark dealings with Lorke. Tilly is actually becoming bareable. Just wish we saw more of Stamet this time around. Overall, more and more going on. Me likes.
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Post by Sifr on Oct 24, 2017 9:52:29 GMT
Which now brings us to Lethe and Lorca. Lorca has been awesome and everything you want from a Captain in the middle of a war. Bold, decisive, he pushes his crew to their limits and gives them the ability to see it out the end, sure...as this episode and a few other scenes in previous ones can point to...he often pushes or exceeds his authority. But he gets resuts. But, because of crazy bat Admiral lady, who has a personal axe to grind of her own, and of course Lorca does have his own issues...he starts doubting himself. He had faith in himself to get the job done, faith in himself, his crew, and his ship, to get the job done. But now? Lets call Starfleet for orders. And again this is probably the right thing to do, but not the Lorca thing to do. I'd have to disagree about Lorca. This episode shows that despite his tendency to shirk the rules and get results, Lorca is very close to snapping and becoming the next Garth of Alzar.
As the Admiral correctly points out, he's showing clear signs of pathological lying and manipulative behaviour, having fooled the psyche tests into making them think he was stable enough to take another command so soon after the Buran incident. We also witness him seemingly attempting to use seduction and their long friendship as a means to try to get her to back off.
Then once it became clear that she was going to take his ship away from him, what does he do? He innocuously suggests having her replace Sarek in the peace talks, possibly having suspected it was a trap, thus ensuring she's less likely to report back home if she's killed/captured.
We can forgive him pulling a phaser (set to kill) on her when she wakes him up after their liason, since that's one of the clearest signs that he does indeed have PTSD.
But the rest of it though, definitely showing signs of instability and that he's not ready to take command again. Despite his impressive results and that sometimes you do need people willing to perform necessarily evils to win, it's not wrong that Starfleet would want someone who's stable, follows orders and they can trust in a combat situation, not someone willing to ignore orders and do anything to win.
(This might be why he chose to add Burnham and Tyler to the crew, as well as having valued the now deceased Landry. He could be trying to form of a cadre of loyalists he thinks will back him if he goes rogue or does questionable things. He might have chosen Saru as his first officer similarly because he views him as too much of a coward to stage a mutiny, nor someone the crew are likely to rally behind to remove him from command)
It's clear that his decision to wait for orders from back home first before attempting a rescue wasn't because he lost faith in himself, but because he doesn't want her rescued. If he rushed in as normal and got her rescued, she'd still most likely spill the beans to Starfleet and his violating orders yet again (even to rescue her) would be used as evidence against him. So he decided to pretend to play ball and "wait" for orders from him, knowing that Starfleet will consider it too much a risk to have it's most important ship attempt to rescue one prisoner of war.
Once more this shows that the Admiral wasn't wrong about him changing into someone more calculating and manipulative. Given their lengthy friendship (seemingly with benefits), it's clear that she knows Lorca well and that his current behaviour isn't like the person she's known for all those years. I don't doubt that Lorca always had those tendencies and characteristics to some degree, but it was probably never as blatantly rampant as it is now. I thought that Spore drive becomes gel packs in Voyager eventually with adjustments. Haven’t seen episode 6 yet, looking forward to tonight. Huh, I never considered the spores perhaps being linked to Voyager's neural gel packs. With what we've been told about them, that would actually make some degree of sense if they repurposed the spores to take advantage of their computational abilities. But even with a century of advancements under their belt, "programming" the spores to behave in that way is simply too difficult for a regular starship (like Voyager) to do on the road, hence why they couldn't be replaced if lost. I didn't find the holodeck bit a huge travesty, but it's another mark on the list of "not really paying attention to the old canon". It's not going to make or break the show, but these are the details that would make me appreciate it quite a bit more if they paid attention to them. As far as the Sarek/Burnham arc in Lethe, my problems with it are mostly just that they're using Sarek rather than some other Vulcan considering there is zero reference to her in any Star Trek that takes place after Discovery. It would have worked better if they had her foster father be a different Vulcan, and if you must then throw Sarek in a few episodes pertaining to the Vulcans(which would still make sense, he is an ambassador). As far as the whole Katra thing goes I agree that it sounds kind of like space magic, but as Transcended points out it's not like the franchise hasn't had numerous examples of things that amount to space magic. The Lorca stuff I'm liking. It's good to see another captain that doesn't get to spout the vaunted Starfleet ideals and simply just have everything work out for him in the end with little to no consequences. We've been told that primitive holograms were around during this time period, although the resolution was very poor. Janeway mentions Sulu looks nothing like his portrait when viewing Tuvok's memories in "Flashback" and when the DS9 crew travel back to K7 in "Trials and Tribble-ations", O'Brien mistakes a random crewman for Kirk (with an injoke being that it was actually Shatner's stunt double). So having holographic tech as good as it would be in the 24th Century (if not better) is a major problem with in-universe continuity. Star Trek has always had a dubious relationship wih canon and continuity in the past, why should it really change? Only shows that gave much of a rats butt about such things were DS9 and later Enterprise. And obviously Discovery is trying to establish its own internal logic that fits in with established Star Trek stuff, but not exactly following it. True, Star Trek has had continuity errors in the past, but even Enterprise didn't have quite so many continuity snarls as Discovery. Basic fundamental details about the setting and how advanced this time period was meant to be have been either jettisoned or ignored, which you need if you're doing a prequel set in an already established era. This era has been well covered in multiple shows and films, so it's hard to ignore all that continuity. Discovery has played so loose with continuity, it's like if say... you were to submit an history essay about our world in 1939, but you mistakenly used Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow as your source material. It's not just wrong, it's glaringly obvious what is wrong with the technology being shown on display. I feel terrible for nitpicking on Discovery for this, but even Enterprise managed to handle this better. They struck a good balance where the tech looked modern, but still primitive compared to what later. It also kept the design lineage where we could see how technology evolved into the stuff used in TOS. Even later series took the kitsch 60s aesthetic of the TOS era and simply ran with it, while poking the odd bit of fun at it. And not to harp on about Burnham, but it's not a good thing that making her Spock's adopted half-sister, reminds everyone of Sybok, his half-brother from Star Trek V. A film that likewise screwed with characters and continuity so much that even Roddenberry deemed it "apocryphal" and outside normal canon. Its been said to take place in the prime universe by the show runners. Which was definitely only said to appease fans, rather than actually being true. Sort of like how the initial Discovery look definitely wasn't based on MacQuarrie's concept art. Nope, not at all. Certainly not to the point where Fuller even had to go on record as saying that they could not legally comment on the similarity. So we should really believe them when they say it's also set in the "Prime" universe. So was Enterprise. That doesn't technically make it true. All the inconsistencies cannot be explained away. If you want to believe it, more power to you. It cannot be so in a logical mind, as most of it is contradictory. Maybe I'm too Vulcan. Enterprise could be considered a look at the "alternate history" of the Prime Universe, created as a result of the events of Star Trek: First Contact. In the original Prime Timeline, before the Borg tried to interfere in First Contact and the Enterprise-E went back to stop them, Cochrane's ground crew survived, Geordi and Riker weren't the other two people in the Phoenix and the events of "Regeneration" never happened a century later. Also factor in the Temporal Cold War, interference from Nazi Space Aliens, the Sphere Builders, Future Guy and the Suliban, along with a long string of sheer incompetence from Daniel's faction of time agents. Then remember that most Starfleet officers (especially Janeway) seem to treat history with the same care as Homer Simpson or Barry Allen; "Don't touch anything, I'll touch whatever I feel like!"
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Post by The Hype Himself on Oct 24, 2017 17:40:59 GMT
I didn't find the holodeck bit a huge travesty, but it's another mark on the list of "not really paying attention to the old canon". It's not going to make or break the show, but these are the details that would make me appreciate it quite a bit more if they paid attention to them. As far as the Sarek/Burnham arc in Lethe, my problems with it are mostly just that they're using Sarek rather than some other Vulcan considering there is zero reference to her in any Star Trek that takes place after Discovery. It would have worked better if they had her foster father be a different Vulcan, and if you must then throw Sarek in a few episodes pertaining to the Vulcans(which would still make sense, he is an ambassador).
As far as the whole Katra thing goes I agree that it sounds kind of like space magic, but as Transcended points out it's not like the franchise hasn't had numerous examples of things that amount to space magic.The Lorca stuff I'm liking. It's good to see another captain that doesn't get to spout the vaunted Starfleet ideals and simply just have everything work out for him in the end with little to no consequences. I'm highlighting these two points because for some reason, they both really, really, really remind me of Star Trek V - otherwise known as the one we don't talk about and avoid mentioning in polite company, and in doing so making you wonder the writers are doing to bring about comparisons to it. I mean, we didn't learn about Sybok being Spock's (half) brother until he's already hijacked the Enterprise. And it's the same for the 'long-distance communication' thing. Sybok being contacted by 'god' to come and get him off his planet. It also reminds me of a bad Kes episode of Voyager (which is to say, most of them.) I'm on the opposite end of the fence - I believe in the 'vaunted Starfleet' ideals, and though I'm not as exuberant as Picard at pulling them out, I want them to turn out to be in the right: even Sisko, in the darkest days of the Dominion War, never abandoned his belief in the ideology of Starfleet, and felt totally sick and disgusted with himself when he had to work around them. I get that in practice, there's a lot more of a gray-area with them, but I don't think they should be cast aside. To that end, my hopes for Lorca are either a 'redemptive' character-growing arc where he slowly becomes more and more of an ideal for the Starfleet values (similar to Kirk, given the era) while keeping his 'edge', or to have it be self-destructive. And should Lorca accept the ideals of Starfleet, I would like to see more going right in the long-run, with the consequences outweighed by the positives. It's what Star Trek's all about. Same with Michael. Unlike Lorca, I'm finding a lot less to be impressed with her - I'm just glad the focus of the series isn't as much on her as it seemed towards the start.
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Post by The Hype Himself on Oct 24, 2017 17:54:49 GMT
Discovery is in the Prime Universe, but the showrunners are using broad-strokes to allow for more tech to show off.
Holographic fixtures for example, it has been said too many times elsewhere, should not exist.
I'm fine with the not-holodeck so long as it remains that way.
Honestly, I think one thing that is starting to make me worry is that when people say this is in the 'main' universe, they mean main as in TOS. It goes back to how the franchise as a whole seems to be trapped in the Kirk-era, and that this implies that while they want to keep TOS intact, they don't intend to hold that true for TNG or its successors.
Which is honestly a stupid thought - TNG is probably the most popular of the shows, even over TOS.
As I've said, I can't help but feel how all of this stuff dealing with the issues of Discovery could have been avoided if they just went into the future. Then they wouldn't have to worry about creating a show that is technologically in-step with both the past and future, the plot would only have to focus on retrospective canon (and not future canon), and there'd simply be more able opportunities to create new plotlines without needing to worry about what lines up with what down the road.
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Post by colfoley on Oct 24, 2017 23:33:30 GMT
Discovery is in the Prime Universe, but the showrunners are using broad-strokes to allow for more tech to show off. Holographic fixtures for example, it has been said too many times elsewhere, should not exist. I'm fine with the not-holodeck so long as it remains that way. Honestly, I think one thing that is starting to make me worry is that when people say this is in the 'main' universe, they mean main as in TOS. It goes back to how the franchise as a whole seems to be trapped in the Kirk-era, and that this implies that while they want to keep TOS intact, they don't intend to hold that true for TNG or its successors. Which is honestly a stupid thought - TNG is probably the most popular of the shows, even over TOS. As I've said, I can't help but feel how all of this stuff dealing with the issues of Discovery could have been avoided if they just went into the future. Then they wouldn't have to worry about creating a show that is technologically in-step with both the past and future, the plot would only have to focus on retrospective canon (and not future canon), and there'd simply be more able opportunities to create new plotlines without needing to worry about what lines up with what down the road. The problem is with the concept. Now don't get me wrong good storytelling is good storytelling and I will like something based on the merits of its storytelling. But...well honestly this Trek just might be running into the same problem that Moffat had writing 'Day of the Doctor.' They can't imagine the Federation, especially of the late twenty fourth early twenty fifth century being this...morally dubious. So they have to take it back to a time when the Federation was not exactly the Federation...yet. And that idea is all over this show for the Klingons, for the Federation, for others. This show is trying to lay the foundation for the future. That and of course STO is currently tackling the future time lines anyways so they probably didn't want to step on each other's shoes.
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Post by The Hype Himself on Oct 25, 2017 1:27:08 GMT
Discovery is in the Prime Universe, but the showrunners are using broad-strokes to allow for more tech to show off. Holographic fixtures for example, it has been said too many times elsewhere, should not exist. I'm fine with the not-holodeck so long as it remains that way. Honestly, I think one thing that is starting to make me worry is that when people say this is in the 'main' universe, they mean main as in TOS. It goes back to how the franchise as a whole seems to be trapped in the Kirk-era, and that this implies that while they want to keep TOS intact, they don't intend to hold that true for TNG or its successors. Which is honestly a stupid thought - TNG is probably the most popular of the shows, even over TOS. As I've said, I can't help but feel how all of this stuff dealing with the issues of Discovery could have been avoided if they just went into the future. Then they wouldn't have to worry about creating a show that is technologically in-step with both the past and future, the plot would only have to focus on retrospective canon (and not future canon), and there'd simply be more able opportunities to create new plotlines without needing to worry about what lines up with what down the road. The problem is with the concept. Now don't get me wrong good storytelling is good storytelling and I will like something based on the merits of its storytelling. But...well honestly this Trek just might be running into the same problem that Moffat had writing 'Day of the Doctor.' They can't imagine the Federation, especially of the late twenty fourth early twenty fifth century being this...morally dubious. So they have to take it back to a time when the Federation was not exactly the Federation...yet. And that idea is all over this show for the Klingons, for the Federation, for others. This show is trying to lay the foundation for the future. That and of course STO is currently tackling the future time lines anyways so they probably didn't want to step on each other's shoes. Star Trek Online is technically regarded as an alternate timeline within the universe, and thus has little actual weight next to the series. Even the game's developers and publisher regard it as not being in the same vein as Prime canon. However, on that note, it would be very interesting if they took a broad-strokes approach with ST:O, specifically regarding its plots. They don't even necessarily have to retell any of the story episodes, but deal with the future 10-20 years after the games timeline (the game starts in the year 2409.) Some concepts to explore that were interesting: - regular exploration of the Delta Quadrant via the Jenolan Dyson Sphere discovered in 'TNG: Relics,' culminating in a Federation-esque alliance (more of a confederacy or alliance than a Federation) of various DQ-races (stimulated by contact with the Federation and other Alpha/Beta Quadrant powers like the Klingons and Romulans.) - The fracture of Romulan society following the Hobus Supernova that destroyed Romulus (which is good for reconciling the Prime and Kelvin timelines,) how the Romulan Empire collapsed, the birth and expansion of the New Romulan Republic led by a group of Romulan/Vulcan reconciliation activists founded by Spock, the fall of the Tal Shiar, Empress Sela's rise and fall, etc. A series could look up the trouble of how the Romulan Republic integrates with other powers. - The rise of a renewed Klingon Empire with several subject races being assimilated into the Empire and adopting a new 'Klingon' identity (races such as the Gorn and Orions are in this group), the rise in mistrust and mutual hostility against the Federation and Romulan Republic. - The resurgence of the Borg (in contrast with the Star Trek: Destiny novels) following the actions of Admiral Janeway and the crew of Voyager, as well as a new splinter element of liberated Borg that break off to create their own collective (led by Seven of Nine and Hugh from 'I, Borg' (TNG)) known as the Borg Cooperative that strives to peacefully coexist with other Galactic civilizations. - Renewed threats from other as-yet barely encountered powers such as the Tholians, the Voth, the Vaadwaur, the Breen, etc. - Renewed tensions with the Dominion, and the Federation's release of the Female Changeling and how her militancy might counteract Odo's positive influence and push the Dominion back into conflict with the Federation. Along those lines, Laas' Alpha Quadrant Great Link and its own increasing militancy against other races. - A renewed Temporal Cold War that actually has a good timeline and plot to do it justice. - Renewed incursions from Fluid Space by the Undine (Species 8472), and their plans of conquest against the galaxy. - A renewed Cardassia that is ostensibly an ally to the Federation but is facing a growing fascist movement seeking to return to past glories. - Incursions from the Renewed Terran Empire of the Mirror!Universe into ours and the effects of it. - The everlasting mission of seeking out new life and new civilizations, and boldly going where no one has gone before (i.e. first contact with races such as the Lukari, helping them take their first steps into the larger AQ community, and everything in-between) These are things that a new show could ostensibly grow on, while being able to take necessary broad strokes in the future. Of course, some issues remain in that a lot of ST:O is grounded in the mythology of the Star Trek EU, which is non-canon. Now, you could make it canon, but then you'd have to pick and choose what constitutes what, and that would mean cutting out a lot of material that is contradictory, or doesn't work, or whatnot. For example, take Ezri Dax - in the novels, she switches out of the Science Division and into Command. During the events of Star Trek: Destiny (in which the Borg return in force in 2381 and threaten to annihilate all of the Alpha/Beta Quadrants), she takes command of the USS Aventine, and it's framed in very specific events within the Destiny timeline. If ST:O were to become canon, where she is still in command of the Aventine 30 years later, the plot would collapse due to the paradox (ST: Destiny never happened in the ST:O timeline, and Ezri becoming captain of the Aventine can only happen in the Destiny timeline, which ST:O holds as happening... see where I'm going?) You'd have to pick what is more important for the plot to follow/allow, and you'd have to have a workaround for how/why some things are explained differently. Of course, all of this is moot if they decide to pick up, say, 40 - 50 years after ST:O (or 100 years after TNG), when the minutiae won't matter as much. Back to the Federation, I don't think there'd be an issue with presenting a morally dubious side. I mean DS9, and even TNG and VOY at points showed how problematic things could be. The problem is with how dark they want to take it, which seems to be a fad these days.
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Post by phoray on Oct 25, 2017 1:30:19 GMT
I thought it was OOC for Lorko to go after Michael's daddy.
I totally saw Lorko kinda hoping the Admiral he banged would fail and die on that peace mission. Or, at least, there was no way it would go wrong.
A. She succeeds and the war ends, and he gets a vacation without losing his command. B. She dies and he gets to keep his command.
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Post by colfoley on Oct 25, 2017 1:41:16 GMT
I thought it was OOC for Lorko to go after Michael's daddy. I totally saw Lorko kinda hoping the Admiral he banged would fail and die on that peace mission. Or, at least, there was no way it would go wrong. A. She succeeds and the war ends, and he gets a vacation without losing his command. B. She dies and he gets to keep his command. its only an ooc moment if you consider him evil. Its unclear how famous Sarek is at this point...but it's clear that he has a reputation. Lorca recognizes he is an asset and wants to end the war. Despitw his own numerous issues with the Klingons he remains professional. Remains wanting to end the war. Honestly this ep went a long way to humanizing him.
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Post by The Hype Himself on Oct 25, 2017 1:44:45 GMT
I thought it was OOC for Lorko to go after Michael's daddy. I totally saw Lorko kinda hoping the Admiral he banged would fail and die on that peace mission. Or, at least, there was no way it would go wrong. A. She succeeds and the war ends, and he gets a vacation without losing his command. B. She dies and he gets to keep his command. its only an ooc moment if you consider him evil. Its unclear how famous Sarek is at this point...but it's clear that he has a reputation. Lorca recognizes he is an asset and wants to end the war. Despitw his own numerous issues with the Klingons he remains professional. Remains wanting to end the war. Honestly this ep went a long way to humanizing him. At this point in time, he's a Vulcan ambassador with a relatively high amount of pull with both Vulcan and the Federation. Prior to this, he was a renowned astrophysicist over the last several decades (Sarek is pushing 100 at this point in time.)
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Post by phoray on Oct 25, 2017 1:49:48 GMT
I thought it was OOC for Lorko to go after Michael's daddy. I totally saw Lorko kinda hoping the Admiral he banged would fail and die on that peace mission. Or, at least, there was no way it would go wrong. A. She succeeds and the war ends, and he gets a vacation without losing his command. B. She dies and he gets to keep his command. its only an ooc moment if you consider him evil. Its unclear how famous Sarek is at this point...but it's clear that he has a reputation. Lorca recognizes he is an asset and wants to end the war. Despitw his own numerous issues with the Klingons he remains professional. Remains wanting to end the war. Honestly this ep went a long way to humanizing him. But I don't want him to be human. I found it interesting to have, what did the Admiral call him? A psychopath run a Starship for once? Also, meh on Burnham getting a legit position on the Bridge.
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Post by The Hype Himself on Oct 25, 2017 2:51:41 GMT
its only an ooc moment if you consider him evil. Its unclear how famous Sarek is at this point...but it's clear that he has a reputation. Lorca recognizes he is an asset and wants to end the war. Despitw his own numerous issues with the Klingons he remains professional. Remains wanting to end the war. Honestly this ep went a long way to humanizing him. But I don't want him to be human. I found it interesting to have, what did the Admiral call him? A psychopath run a Starship for once? Also, meh on Burnham getting a legit position on the Bridge. That's the last thing you'd want running a starship, and it's an egregious break from the context of Star Trek, even as far as Discovery has gone.
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Post by phoray on Oct 25, 2017 2:57:47 GMT
What I didn't like about Archer...was a long list. But if he'd owned his actions as a logical choice instead of crying about how he was going againsteverything that made his world turn, I would have accepted it.
There Lorko is with all his gun toys and his "I need people around me willing to support me as I cut out the weakest link to win this."
It's like a Merc Captain with a Federation Badge. It's unique. it'd be like Bean in Ender's Game. But then they go and soften him.
At least he intentionally sent the Admiral to her death. Points off for Michael getting all sentimental. Made me wonder if Lorko questioned bringing her on after all, but maybe he reassured himself about her being a mutineer and using the Alien Cow as Tartigrade bait.
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Post by colfoley on Oct 25, 2017 3:10:47 GMT
its only an ooc moment if you consider him evil. Its unclear how famous Sarek is at this point...but it's clear that he has a reputation. Lorca recognizes he is an asset and wants to end the war. Despitw his own numerous issues with the Klingons he remains professional. Remains wanting to end the war. Honestly this ep went a long way to humanizing him. But I don't want him to be human. I found it interesting to have, what did the Admiral call him? A psychopath run a Starship for once? Also, meh on Burnham getting a legit position on the Bridge. She did? But that is the point, really of what they are going for, for better or worse. He is a psychopath, he is damaged goods, he has a history of making some really tough calls...but that does not make him any less human.
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Post by phoray on Oct 25, 2017 3:14:42 GMT
But I don't want him to be human. I found it interesting to have, what did the Admiral call him? A psychopath run a Starship for once? Also, meh on Burnham getting a legit position on the Bridge. She did?
But that is the point, really of what they are going for, for better or worse. He is a psychopath, he is damaged goods, he has a history of making some really tough calls...but that does not make him any less human. yes. It was in the last five minutes of the episode, but before the Admiral is taken hostage. "I got a science officcer on the bridge for you." "I accept."
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Post by colfoley on Oct 25, 2017 3:22:14 GMT
She did?
But that is the point, really of what they are going for, for better or worse. He is a psychopath, he is damaged goods, he has a history of making some really tough calls...but that does not make him any less human. yes. It was in the last five minutes of the episode, but before the Admiral is taken hostage. "I got a science officcer on the bridge for you." "I accept." I'm drawing a complete blank. Besides this series is very much about the redemption of its characters..heh the more I think about the show because of this thread the more I pick up on overarching themes...anyways Burnham, Lorca, and Saru all feel like they need to prove themselves or redeem themselves or get over themselves. It makes perfectly logical sense for Burnham to get a posting on the bridge eventually. Especially given her growth from the last episode. I mean hell going to Game of Thrones for a second...which is a reference you won't get so nevermind. And the point is, as I think you yourself have made, that unlike in other Trek series this relationship between Burnham and Lorca is causing problems, there are consequences to his actions even when his actions might actually be the right thing to do...given the circumstances.
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Post by Transcended One on Oct 25, 2017 7:26:51 GMT
Are there two or three more episodes before the end of season 1A?
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Post by colfoley on Oct 25, 2017 8:21:57 GMT
Are there two or three more episodes before the end of season 1A? One I think.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2017 18:55:40 GMT
Just one episode?! No, noooo, I want MOAR! When do they resume?
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Post by Transcended One on Oct 25, 2017 20:06:47 GMT
Just one episode?! No, noooo, I want MOAR! When do they resume? I looked it up. We've got three more to go this year. The remaining six are due in january.
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Post by Cyonan on Oct 25, 2017 20:21:10 GMT
I'm on the opposite end of the fence - I believe in the 'vaunted Starfleet' ideals, and though I'm not as exuberant as Picard at pulling them out, I want them to turn out to be in the right: even Sisko, in the darkest days of the Dominion War, never abandoned his belief in the ideology of Starfleet, and felt totally sick and disgusted with himself when he had to work around them. I get that in practice, there's a lot more of a gray-area with them, but I don't think they should be cast aside. To that end, my hopes for Lorca are either a 'redemptive' character-growing arc where he slowly becomes more and more of an ideal for the Starfleet values (similar to Kirk, given the era) while keeping his 'edge', or to have it be self-destructive. And should Lorca accept the ideals of Starfleet, I would like to see more going right in the long-run, with the consequences outweighed by the positives. It's what Star Trek's all about. Same with Michael. Unlike Lorca, I'm finding a lot less to be impressed with her - I'm just glad the focus of the series isn't as much on her as it seemed towards the start. I'm fine with them turning out for the best in the long run, though in a lot of cases with Picard and Kirk it felt like things had worked out for the best by the end of the episode and whenever it became inconvenient to the plot they just ignored the ideals(especially the Prime Directive) and the characters never really acknowledged that. It's nice to see the ideals clash with reality, even though I do still want the ideals to come out on top on the other side. That's one of the reasons I loved DS9.
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