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Post by Sifr on Oct 21, 2017 0:24:04 GMT
I don't, but I'm giving that aspect the benefit of the doubt since the writers state that they're going somewhere with it. More importantly, the Klingon plot is just not one that I can get invested in. Part of the reason is that it seems like the only Klingons we're getting are this old cult of T'Kuvma and his successors. I don't know why they didn't give Klingons smooth foreheads like in TOS, since it could have been actually plot-relevant here! We're told that they've not really been seen for a century (barring minor skirmishes), which would line up with the Augment Virus that devastated their population in Enterprise. This would perfectly explain why they're so isolationist, hacked off with the Federation and desire to "Remain Klingon". Many in the Empire could now irrationally blame humans for their genome becoming fundamentally altered and "polluted" with traces of human DNA, causing their physical disfigurement (the loss of ridges) and other possible physiological changes that's "weakened" their species. That would have a major psychological and sociological impact on their species. Perhaps the Klingons less affected by the mutations levied it into political power, hence why the High Council would be more "ridged" than the common soldiers. T'kuvma's cult could have been made up of "pure Klingon" isolationists who intentionally quarantined their world so they weren't affected by the virus at all. There was a great opportunity to make this fit into established continuity and actually give us cool new dynamics with the Klingon society (a cultural divide between ridged vs smooth foreheaded Klingons in this era), along with some variety among the Klingon appearances. Instead they've all been given heavy prosthetics that make it hard for them to emote, the use of Klingon makes everything sound stilted, they have elongated skulls, no hair or beards and they barely act like any kind of Klingon we've seen before, whether from TOS, ENT or post-TMP. I'd be way more invested with the Klingons if they'd been bothered to write them properly, hadn't thrown away 50 years of continuity and the writers could remember some basic facts about how their species and culture operate. Even the flanderised Space Vikings they became in 90s Trek, still came across as more Klingon than those Space-Orcs. The way this show is moving I kind of doubt it. Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if Ash is a double agent still. What does everything think of the common fan theory that; Ash is actually Voq.
It would be cool if Lorca being kidnapped and the entire prison escape was engineered as a means to get a Klingon mole on Discovery. By presenting Harry Mudd as someone untrustworthy, who'd pass his own beatings onto Ash and even spy on them, that would engender trust in Ash from Lorca and deflect suspicion that Ash was the real spy.
(I need to rewatch the pilot, because I seem to remember the Yeager being destroyed? Not sure if they were any survivors or not, depending on whether this prove his story of being from that ship is actually false?)
But yeah, lot of people suspect that's the real reason Lorca has that Tribble on his desk. It'll end up being the reveal.
As much as the first F-bomb wasn't earned and felt like they were trying to be cool and edgy... I can totally see someone like Tilly saying that as a way to impress Burnham and Stamets, because they're the cool kids and she desperately wants their approval. Dammit Tilly... I can't stay mad at you. You're one of the few redeeming characters in this show. Do you even like Dax? Why or why not? I like Dax, but I wish that they'd gone with a male host for Dax in S7 rather than Ezri (not that I dislike Ezri). Having a male host grapple with the residual memories/feelings from Jadzia regarding Worf could have been interesting and pushed televisions boundaries at time time. Not saying that the male host would have to necessarily be depicted as gay, only that they have to deal with the lingering attraction to Worf leftover from Jadzia (as Ezri did), which obviously Worf would not reciprocate. Could even have been cool to have this Dax be married himself. How would you cope being married to someone, while having the memories of being married to someone you now work alongside? Then imagine how Dax's spouse would feel being uprooted to head to a station on the frontlines of a war, they'd probably feel like the Dax symbiote hijacked their husband to attempt to recapture the life of it's former host? I liked Ezri, but there was a lot they could have done with a male host in S7. Would have shifted the dynamic, rather that give us someone like Ezri who is (fair or not) often being regarded as a suspiciously similar substitute for Jadzia. Michael Burnham isn't very compelling to me as a lead I've seen a lot of fans voice this sentiment and I have to agree. Michael Burnham come across as the weakest link and least likeable character in the show, which is not a great thing from the lead. She's constantly moody and surly to everyone around her, comes across as a know-it-all who believes she's always right (which thankfully has been lampshaded), her self-confidence borders on arrogance and she frequently acts insubordinate or flat-out disobeys any order she doesn't like. She comes across as a terrible officer and someone who shouldn't have been a Commander, let alone pipped for future command of a starship. Frankly, it feels like Sarek and Georgiou have coddled her and that's lead her to develop an over-inflated sense of ego. And let's not get into the fantastic racism she shows towards Saru at times. I was actually glad that he snapped at her in episode 5 when her attempt to be diplomatic was to condescend to him by insinuating that his species are all skittish space-deer; Burnham: I understand that you are in command and it is a time of crisis. And your culture trains you to be on the heightened lookout for enemies. But I assure you, I'm not one of them. Saru: How dare you treat me like your xenoanthropology subjects! You are not an enemy, Burnham. You are a proven predator. I know this not only because my instincts tell me that you are, but because your actions show me that you are. Saving the Tardigrade will neither bring back nor change that this is exactly the kind of behaviour that killed Captain Georgiou. Damn right, Saru. Who does she think she is?
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Post by colfoley on Oct 21, 2017 1:17:01 GMT
I don't, but I'm giving that aspect the benefit of the doubt since the writers state that they're going somewhere with it. More importantly, the Klingon plot is just not one that I can get invested in. Part of the reason is that it seems like the only Klingons we're getting are this old cult of T'Kuvma and his successors. I don't know why they didn't give Klingons smooth foreheads like in TOS, since it could have been actually plot-relevant here! We're told that they've not really been seen for a century (barring minor skirmishes), which would line up with the Augment Virus that devastated their population in Enterprise. This would perfectly explain why they're so isolationist, hacked off with the Federation and desire to "Remain Klingon". Many in the Empire could now irrationally blame humans for their genome becoming fundamentally altered and "polluted" with traces of human DNA, causing their physical disfigurement (the loss of ridges) and other possible physiological changes that's "weakened" their species. That would have a major psychological and sociological impact on their species. Perhaps the Klingons less affected by the mutations levied it into political power, hence why the High Council would be more "ridged" than the common soldiers. T'kuvma's cult could have been made up of "pure Klingon" isolationists who intentionally quarantined their world so they weren't affected by the virus at all. There was a great opportunity to make this fit into established continuity and actually give us cool new dynamics with the Klingon society (a cultural divide between ridged vs smooth foreheaded Klingons in this era), along with some variety among the Klingon appearances. Instead they've all been given heavy prosthetics that make it hard for them to emote, the use of Klingon makes everything sound stilted, they have elongated skulls, no hair or beards and they barely act like any kind of Klingon we've seen before, whether from TOS, ENT or post-TMP. I'd be way more invested with the Klingons if they'd been bothered to write them properly, hadn't thrown away 50 years of continuity and the writers could remember some basic facts about how their species and culture operate. Even the flanderised Space Vikings they became in 90s Trek, still came across as more Klingon than those Space-Orcs. The way this show is moving I kind of doubt it. Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if Ash is a double agent still. What does everything think of the common fan theory that; Ash is actually Voq.
It would be cool if Lorca being kidnapped and the entire prison escape was engineered as a means to get a Klingon mole on Discovery. By presenting Harry Mudd as someone untrustworthy, who'd pass his own beatings onto Ash and even spy on them, that would engender trust in Ash from Lorca and deflect suspicion that Ash was the real spy.
(I need to rewatch the pilot, because I seem to remember the Yeager being destroyed? Not sure if they were any survivors or not, depending on whether this prove his story of being from that ship is actually false?)
But yeah, lot of people suspect that's the real reason Lorca has that Tribble on his desk. It'll end up being the reveal.
As much as the first F-bomb wasn't earned and felt like they were trying to be cool and edgy... I can totally see someone like Tilly saying that as a way to impress Burnham and Stamets, because they're the cool kids and she desperately wants their approval. Dammit Tilly... I can't stay mad at you. You're one of the few redeeming characters in this show. Do you even like Dax? Why or why not? I like Dax, but I wish that they'd gone with a male host for Dax in S7 rather than Ezri (not that I dislike Ezri). Having a male host grapple with the residual memories/feelings from Jadzia regarding Worf could have been interesting and pushed televisions boundaries at time time. Not saying that the male host would have to necessarily be depicted as gay, only that they have to deal with the lingering attraction to Worf leftover from Jadzia (as Ezri did), which obviously Worf would not reciprocate. Could even have been cool to have this Dax be married himself. How would you cope being married to someone, while having the memories of being married to someone you now work alongside? Then imagine how Dax's spouse would feel being uprooted to head to a station on the frontlines of a war, they'd probably feel like the Dax symbiote hijacked their husband to attempt to recapture the life of it's former host? I liked Ezri, but there was a lot they could have done with a male host in S7. Would have shifted the dynamic, rather that give us someone like Ezri who is (fair or not) often being regarded as a suspiciously similar substitute for Jadzia. Michael Burnham isn't very compelling to me as a lead I've seen a lot of fans voice this sentiment and I have to agree. Michael Burnham come across as the weakest link and least likeable character in the show, which is not a great thing from the lead. She's constantly moody and surly to everyone around her, comes across as a know-it-all who believes she's always right (which thankfully has been lampshaded), her self-confidence borders on arrogance and she frequently acts insubordinate or flat-out disobeys any order she doesn't like. She comes across as a terrible officer and someone who shouldn't have been a Commander, let alone pipped for future command of a starship. Frankly, it feels like Sarek and Georgiou have coddled her and that's lead her to develop an over-inflated sense of ego. And let's not get into the fantastic racism she shows towards Saru at times. I was actually glad that he snapped at her in episode 5 when her attempt to be diplomatic was to condescend to him by insinuating that his species are all skittish space-deer; Burnham: I understand that you are in command and it is a time of crisis. And your culture trains you to be on the heightened lookout for enemies. But I assure you, I'm not one of them. Saru: How dare you treat me like your xenoanthropology subjects! You are not an enemy, Burnham. You are a proven predator. I know this not only because my instincts tell me that you are, but because your actions show me that you are. Saving the Tardigrade will neither bring back nor change that this is exactly the kind of behaviour that killed Captain Georgiou. Damn right, Saru. Who does she think she is? i read a comment once where it was suggested that the reason why the Klingons look so different is exactly because of the retrovirus. That they are essentially hybrid looks between the TOS Klingons and all the others. I really object to these Klingons being called 'space orcs' orcs don't typically get the screen time, the sophistication, and the sympathy discovery is trying to engender. And when they do its quite a shock from those witnessing such events (maker that dark spawn can talk!) I think the mistake that you and many others are making is this is NOT the Klingons of the latter 23rd and 24th century. These Klingons are becoming those Klingons. And everything they have done pretty much fits with established continuity (more or less)
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Post by Sifr on Oct 21, 2017 2:08:08 GMT
i read a comment once where it was suggested that the reason why the Klingons look so different is exactly because of the retrovirus. That they are essentially hybrid looks between the TOS Klingons and all the others. I really object to these Klingons being called 'space orcs' orcs don't typically get the screen time, the sophistication, and the sympathy discovery is trying to engender. And when they do its quite a shock from those witnessing such events (maker that dark spawn can talk!) I think the mistake that you and many others are making is this is NOT the Klingons of the latter 23rd and 24th century. These Klingons are becoming those Klingons. And everything they have done pretty much fits with established continuity (more or less) I wouldn't say that these Klingons thus far have shown any sophistication or engendered any sympathy from the audience. Most of their scenes tend to come across a dead air, because we don't really know enough about why T'kuvma wanted to start a war aside from "Make Q'onoS Great Again". I will grant them that the frequent complaint people have about Klingons performing cannibalism in Ep 4 (mentioning haven eaten Georgiou) is understandable given that they'd been stranded in space for six months, exhausted their food supply and were five minutes away from becoming the Donner party. That they betrayed Voq the moment Kol offered actual food showed how starving and desperate these Klingons were. As for the argument that these Klingons are becoming more like the later Klingons... that doesn't work with established canon. Enterprise already showed the 22nd Century Klingons as being essentially more or less the same as the Klingons from the latter 23rd/24th Century. Enterprise even addressed their flanderisation into Space Vikings as being the result of the Warrior Caste having begun to dominate their society and culture by the 22nd Century, so lawyers, scholars and scientists were becoming rarer. Despite how different the Klingons were in TOS, they still showed a degree of restraint in how they acted, despite their warmongering and desire for conquest. Many Klingons were shown to the Federation as a worthy adversary and seemingly enjoying the cat-and-mouse game and battle of wits. You can still reconcile the TOS Klingons with those shown in Enterprise and chalk up their change as a result of the Augment virus affecting their psychology, before reasserting itself once it was cured in the late 23rd century. For instance during "A Trouble with Tribbles", rather than simply start a fight with them, the Klingons on K7 instead chose to goad the Enterprise crew into abandoning their moral high ground by getting them to throw the first punch. Or during "Errand of Mercy", we see Kor show respect several times towards Kirk for his efforts to fight back and try to undermine him, compared to the utter contempt he shows the Organians for their apathetic refusal to fight back in any way. Even the early TOS incarnation of the Klingons showed far more nuance then the ones in DSC. Hopefully they'll improve later down the line once the writers get a handle on them better, they definitely were better in episode 5 (mostly because the actors could finally speak English). I'm still waiting for these Klingons to show some semblance of proud warrior race guys they've so often been depicted as (both earlier and later in canon), rather than the chaotic stupid Discovery Klingons who want to start a war with the Federation because... they're bored? I would be remiss however if I didn't point out that in early TNG, before they got a handle on what the Klingons were going to be going forward, Worf would alternate between stoic warrior and almost feral, depending on who wrote the episode. ("One Riker, one bridge, ngargh!") His over-use of Shakespearean quotes aside, General Chang was great demonstration of how to write a Klingon antagonist.
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Post by Ruliya on Oct 21, 2017 2:31:51 GMT
I think the main problem people have, is that they believed it when they said it was set in the Prime universe. It's not. Never has been, never will be. Just a quick glance at episode one and even the basic of babies can figure out it's clearly another AR. Smart move for the new movies, smart move here too. Starfleet isn't Starfleet, Klingons aren't Klingon, ship design by anyone isn't ship design by any Prime designer. Tech is different, hell used Kelvin Vulcan stuff, so maybe it's actually a Kelvin AR, could make sense. But stop kidding yourselves that this was ever Prime universe. I mean you can jump a billion hoops to try and fit it, but you know it never will. So just accept it's a Kelvin AR and the show will be fine enough
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Post by The Hype Himself on Oct 21, 2017 2:41:18 GMT
I don't know why they didn't give Klingons smooth foreheads like in TOS, since it could have been actually plot-relevant here! Indeed, and I'd actually like to see more variance among the Klingons here in the show. I'm assuming that this may come into play at some point, but it should already be the case for the Klingons in the show (particularly Kol, since he's a member of the House of Kor, who does, at this point in time, have the mutation that made Klingons look human.) And given that the explanation for the Klingons' current appearance in DIS is that this was some 'racially pure' sub-group of Klingons, why do all of the great houses of Klingons look this way? Also, why do they speak at like, 10 words per minute? Klingon can be spoken faster, as proven in the TNG-era. Unrelated, but has anyone else noticed how the Klingons look like White Walkers now? Abso-friggin-lutely mate. Something to consider is that we know what Klingons look like prior to the Augment-virus - they look like the Klingons post-TMP (i.e. Worf-era Klingons.) So we know that even prior to the virus, the Klingons still look nothing like they did before or after DIS's official point in time. Well, to be fair, in TOS, they were virtually identical with the Romulans later portrayal (to the point that in TOS, the Romulans were more like TNG-era Klingons and vice versa,) in that they were more duplicitous and underhanded. Then come TMP and the TOS-era movies, and they were more bloodthirsty (while still being underhanded.) It wasn't until Worf came into the picture that we started to see the more positive aspects of the Klingons. I get it, but I don't like it. It's too... edgy for Star Trek, particularly in this aspect - I remember reading something about how Star Trek writers have learned from Game of Thrones... Now, if you keep up with the GoT-thread, you know that I love the books and the show, but I feel like that's something that ought to be left out of the franchise. Star Trek can be dark, but it's not inherently so, not even in the bleakest parts of DS9. Plus, if that's the point of Ash being on the ship, then this whole plot point is basically a bloodier, gorier version of 'The Trouble with Tribbles.' I don't know, I'm not sure how I feel about a lot of the 'Also-starring' cast yet. Stamets and Saru are the most interesting, Lorca is growing on me (but is simply too... militaristic to be believably Starfleet, even in war-time,) but the others? I guess I should be happy that Tilly isn't a gender-bent Wesley Crusher. She's an actual human character, so there's that. Ah, Dax is one of my favorite characters - something about her (both of them) and their nature as a joined species, as well as being a rather strong female character done well (in Jadzia's case) just really gets to me. Oh, how this reminds me of the discussions on Trek BBS (fondly, and you're in good company!) Well, technically, Trill reassociation is forbidden, which means Ezri sleeping with Worf was a major no-no. Technically, if the male Trill was married and had to remain joined, he'd simply have to live with the memories. He'd probably still seek out Benjamin, and there'd be angst from Worf, his wife, and his memories as Jadzia, but I think it wouldn't be as prevalent of a concern for Ezri. Ezri was an Assistant Counselor, barely out of Starfleet Academy and not even fully trained as a counselor yet; she had an unstable, unhappy childhood due to her mother, which likely caused no end of personal insecurity for Ezri Tigan, and then, with Dax thrust upon her (or into her) with little real choice in the matter, she suddenly has several hundred years of memories and feelings that aren't hers, with no training to prepare herself for it. It's amazing she keeps herself together so well, and even defines her own identity as Dax later. I know it makes me weird, but one of the things that I was really interested and invested in was the Dax/Worf/Bashir love-triangle, and how it would play out. I like how Ezri and Bashir are able to move past the awkwardness of their past association and attraction to each when Dax was in Jadzia and Bashir's hopeless love for her played out. I personally don't see how Ezri is similar to Jadzia - in fact, one thing many fans have noted is how much more developed Ezri was as a character compared to Jadzia. Sure, there were fumbles here and there, but we actually learn about Ezri, we get differentiated from Ezri, and we see Ezri struggle with who she is, was, and who she has become. These are things that we (understandably) never quite got with Jadzia. Jadzia's characterization sort of got thrown into a loop when Worf came on the scene, and by early season 5, she was in essence Curzon 2.0 (the irony there!) With Ezri, we a lot of differences - to quote Garak for starters, she's far and away from the spirited, confident woman that owned herself that Jadzia was. But she also lacks some of Jadzia's gadfly-esque tendencies (in some ways, Jadzia was an immature party girl,) while keeping other things (like her impulsiveness, such as when Ezri stole a runabout to rescue Worf.) Ezri lacks the sort of clarity and control that defined Jadzia, while also demonstrating an ability to offer keen insights that Jadzia's sentimentality might have missed (Ezri being a lot more skeptical of the Klingons compared to Jadzia and Curzon.) One theory is that Jadzia herself was largely affected by the Curzon part of Dax, and that Ezri being separated with a buffer between them kept her relatively less enthused. And of course, the complete opposite to Jadzia in their relationship to the symbiont they both bore - Jadzia was passionate about becoming joined, so much so that she took the unheard of steps of reapplying to the Symbiosis Commission after being rejected the first time. Jadzia trained for years to become joined, earning multiple premier degrees in the sciences, and devoting her life to the symbiont, compared to Ezri, who wasn't even born on Trill, who had no higher aspirations to joining (and is implied to have joined Starfleet in part to escape her overbearing mother,) and didn't want to be joined at all (the books, which are non-canon, discuss how she was even resentful for a time of how Dax had completely taken over her entire identity, to the point where she didn't even know if any of her relationships or feelings were real. And of course, you throw in their respective relationships with Worf and Doctor Bashir - Ezri suddenly has feelings for a husband she never married, and of course you have the whole sentiments between Jadzia and Julian. That's one reason I really like Bashir and Ezri getting together (something that I've noticed is somewhat unpopular among DS9 fans): At first, in their interactions with each other, it looks like they both have that residual kernal of infatuation with each other (Julian compares her to Ezri, and Ezri mentions that Jadzia always liked how Julian would flirt with her, and that Jadzia would have eventually reciprocated had Worf not come along.) It's awkward, it's odd, and it's uncomfortable, but they're able to move past it for the better part of a year... and start to fall in love with each other for real (at least, in Julian's case. Admittedly, Ezri's feelings for Julian were somewhat unexplained when she first mentioned them in the episode where she and Worf were being held by the Breen.) But one thing about this is that this isn't Jadzia's feelings for Julian making her seek him out, this is her own feelings, and her own feelings alone, that are blossoming for Doctor Bashir. And as I said, you see Julian slowly coming to the realization that he loves Ezri himself, and doesn't just see her as his second shot with Jadzia or a romantic consolation prize. Sorry to keep going on on it, but it's actually the main idea for the plot of the fanfic I mentioned (I'll put it in spoilers for you, so it doesn't totally clog up the page): Basically, what would happen is that Julian and Ezri would be slowly building up on their relationship post-war, with stutters and missteps along the way (both end up thinking that the other is only into them due to Jadzia, i.e. Julian's love for Jadzia transfers to Ezri, Ezri's love for Julian transfers over from Jadzia's own latent interest in the Doctor.) After a falling out, Julian is in a runabout on a mission to the Gamma Quadrant (post-Dominion War, btw, so Sisko, Odo, O'Brien, and Worf are all off DS9 though they would appear in various points.) Then, while Julian is aboard the Runabout (by himself), there's an incident. If you've seen the Star Trek: Voyager episode 'Non-Sequiter' (S2, E5), then you'll know what I do. Basically, in that episode, Harry Kim is in a shuttlecraft, it gets caught in a space-time vortex, and it alters the timeline in that Harry was never aboard the Voyager, but is back on Earth, with a career at Starfleet HQ, a fiancee, etc. He's living the dream, but in the end, he's willing to throw it all away to fix the timeline and be stranded in the Delta Quadrant with Voyager, which he has come to see as his home and family. Essentially, I do the same thing for Doctor Bashir. In the incident, Julian wakes up in a universe where the Enterprise-D was never destroyed, Jadzia is still alive, Worf never joined DS9, and he is in a relationship with the woman of his dreams, Jadzia. The Dominion War, while still taking place, never really escalated as it did in the show, and everything is generally much better off for the Doctor and DS9 in general. But as he starts wondering whether everything he experienced ever happened, or was just a hallucination, he's awakened at night by dreams of being back on his prime-timeline's DS9, with Ezri (whom he has never met in this timeline and thus doesn't recognize) pleading for him to 'return.' Eventually, he comes to believe that his 'experiences' were the result of a hallucination, and he starts to settle back into DS9 life with Jadzia. Over several months, they become engaged, he get's promoted, becomes a war hero, etc. but one day, Julian looks over the casualty reports of one U.S.S. Destiny, and sees a name on the list of Starfleet personnel killed - Ezri Tigan. That night, Julian again dreams of himself in a coma, back on his DS9, with Ezri looking over him. Julian, on a hunch, looks up Ezri, reads about her and her troubled home-life, some of her counselor logs, and lastly sees in her profile that it is the same woman who is in his dreams, and becomes convinced that things are not how they should be. He eventually meets one of the same aliens that Harry Kim met (the aliens who have awareness and some control over the timeline,) and learns the truth about what happened to him - he got caught in a timestream, and now he's being pulled in two different directions, time-wise. Upon learning this, Doctor Bashir starts to obsess about getting back to the actual timeline and making things happen the way they're supposed to happen. Not just with/for Ezri, but other things are starting to fall apart as well (I don't want it to just be a choice of Jadzia or Ezri, I want Julian to also face a genuine moral dilemma, though as yet, I haven't worked out the details.) The alien tries to convince him (like Harry,) to make do with his situation, and Julian starts to wonder if he wants to throw away his happiness with Jadzia and flourishing professional career for a woman who he fears may not truly love him, whom he also isn't sure will want him back if he corrects the timeline, and who he does question whether his feelings for are legitimate because they're for her, or because she is all that he has left of Jadzia. After all, Jadzia is supposed to be 'the true love,' the one that got away. But in the end, he makes the decision to return to Ezri, abandoning his happiness and life in the new timeline to return it to the main one because in the end, he realizes that he truly loves Ezri for Ezri, and not just because she is Jadzia's successor. Julian rights the timeline and wakes up in the infirmary with Ezri over him in an identical scene to this, and them professing their love for each other, and not because their mutual attachment to Jadzia compelled them to. It would end with both of them (now married) visiting Jadzia's grave on Trill. Whew, sorry, it's something I've been working on. I have a couple of other J/E torpedoes in the tube, so-to-speak. It's not often that I get into ships so much She's getting a little better, but she still has issues with taking things into her own hands - and it's problematic, because it can (and has) ended up with her in a lot of hot water. It's one reason why I think it's better to leave the final decision making to the Captain for things like this - it'd be more interesting, I think, to see a man like Lorca grappling with his desire to defeat the Klingons and protect the Federation versus his latent humanity and the implications of causing a sentient, possibly sapient being to suffer horribly for the benefit of using a spore-based transwarp drive. And let's ignore said transwarp drive for a moment based on how awful an idea it is, shall we? I think she'd work a lot better if she were a Captain - have her be the captain that well and truly breaks the rules to protect the Federation, and have her be the sort of consigliere for the time being to Lorca, trying to balance his pragmatism with his humanity. As it is though ,it just doesn't work all that well.
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Post by The Hype Himself on Oct 21, 2017 2:44:16 GMT
I think the main problem people have, is that they believed it when they said it was set in the Prime universe. It's not. Never has been, never will be. Just a quick glance at episode one and even the basic of babies can figure out it's clearly another AR. Smart move for the new movies, smart move here too. Starfleet isn't Starfleet, Klingons aren't Klingon, ship design by anyone isn't ship design by any Prime designer. Tech is different, hell used Kelvin Vulcan stuff, so maybe it's actually a Kelvin AR, could make sense. But stop kidding yourselves that this was ever Prime universe. I mean you can jump a billion hoops to try and fit it, but you know it never will. So just accept it's a Kelvin AR and the show will be fine enough CBS wouldn't play with that charade for so long. They have the means, and the films have been popular enough to engender the demand, to not need to pull a fast one over the fandom. So, basically, yes, this is Prime Universe. This is Prime Canon. And yeah, we have to jump through a billion hoops to reconcile it with existing material, even if we know it never truly will.
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Post by Sifr on Oct 21, 2017 3:12:34 GMT
I think the main problem people have, is that they believed it when they said it was set in the Prime universe. It's not. Never has been, never will be. Just a quick glance at episode one and even the basic of babies can figure out it's clearly another AR. Smart move for the new movies, smart move here too. Starfleet isn't Starfleet, Klingons aren't Klingon, ship design by anyone isn't ship design by any Prime designer. Tech is different, hell used Kelvin Vulcan stuff, so maybe it's actually a Kelvin AR, could make sense. But stop kidding yourselves that this was ever Prime universe. I mean you can jump a billion hoops to try and fit it, but you know it never will. So just accept it's a Kelvin AR and the show will be fine enough According to something I read; The (supposed) real reason is apparently due to the television and film rights being split between CBS and Paramount due to a split in 2005. While Paramount Pictures still has control over distribution of the films and shows (despite not owning the latter), future films have to be done under license from CBS. The Kelvin timeline was a nice way to sidestep any legal issues by creating a new canon not owned by CBS, thus why everything looks vastly different (because it legally can't be the same). While CBS gave the go-ahead and are using it to push their All-Access service, Discovery was apparently still made under the Paramount license, which is why everything looks more like the Kelvin than Prime timeline. As for the continuity issues, it's also been rumoured that the super-fans they boasted about hiring to ensure continuity was maintained, actually only were brought on after first few episodes had already been made. Which would definitely explain the huge issues with the first few episodes regarding continuity (like those bloody holograms). (Granted all of this is hearsay I've heard from the community, but it would explain a lot. We know there were a lot of problems with Discovery's production, there were myriad delays and the filming kept being pushed back, the ship was redesigned due to fan backlash and legal issues with the McQuarrie concept, Bryan Fuller bailed on the project etc)
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Post by Sifr on Oct 21, 2017 3:34:35 GMT
I think she'd work a lot better if she were a Captain - have her be the captain that well and truly breaks the rules to protect the Federation, and have her be the sort of consigliere for the time being to Lorca, trying to balance his pragmatism with his humanity. As it is though ,it just doesn't work all that well. I'm reminded of a suggestion made by the reviewer SFDebris regarding Janeway, that it could have perhaps been better if she'd been a First Officer who'd been forced to assume command after the previous Captain was killed in "Caretaker". I was thinking the same thing about Burnham in the pilot, that Georgiou could have been killed during the battle and she now had to step into the big chair, but wasn't necessarily ready for it? Alternately have Lorca be the Jellico to Georgiou's Picard. Have Burnham remain as First Officer only to have her deceased mentor replaced by someone more stern and demanding. Both Lorca and Jellico are Alpha Dogs who like to win and get results, not spend time debating or discussing something. It's no wonder both even use the phrase "Get it done!" when giving an order.
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Post by Sweet FA on Oct 21, 2017 4:00:26 GMT
One of the better scenes from the deeply flawed and ponderous Star Trek TMP.
The proferred handshake is a very powerful device, it's very hard almost impossible for an old friend to decline and snub such an offer. I've always thought it would've been nice if they had reworked this scene for the Virmire survivor either in ME2 or ME3. On a side note it seems that Bones has been keeping himself busy as a member of a 23rd Century Bee Gees tribute act touring interstellar 1970's theme bars in his time away from Star Fleet. Karl Urban has said that the medallion he wears at the end of Star Trek Beyond, as well as his shirt being open, is an homage to DeForest Kelley's similar first appearance as McCoy in the above scene from Star Trek: The Motion Picture.
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Post by The Hype Himself on Oct 21, 2017 4:28:17 GMT
One of the better scenes from the deeply flawed and ponderous Star Trek TMP. The proferred handshake is a very powerful device, it's very hard almost impossible for an old friend to decline and snub such an offer. I've always thought it would've been nice if they had reworked this scene for the Virmire survivor either in ME2 or ME3. On a side note it seems that Bones has been keeping himself busy as a member of a 23rd Century Bee Gees tribute act touring interstellar 1970's theme bars in his time away from Star Fleet. Karl Urban has said that the medallion he wears at the end of Star Trek Beyond, as well as his shirt being open, is an homage to DeForest Kelley's similar first appearance as McCoy in the above scene from Star Trek: The Motion Picture. I'd have preferred a very, very stern 'the reason you suck' speech aimed at their inability to let go of past issues (Ashley in particular) that have alienated them from the rest of the crew and Shepard, as well as a substantial justification for being in Cerberus (for pro-Cerberus players like myself) that calls out the so-called 'good' guys' complete inability to do any good by humanity and how Cerberus answered the call, while also addressing the changing of LI's (my Shepard puts Ashley to pasture for Miranda) more meaningfully than the feeble, sheepish dodging of the question in the ME3 hospital. Of course, that's neither here nor there, and is a plot-point in a thread that has long since been discussed to death. Suffice to say, this works better here, though it reminds me of how forceful Bill's acting could be. Part of the Bones' 'beard and medallion' shtick in 'The Motionless Picture' was to be a meta-representation for the series in a changing time and somewhat of a personal reflection for Gene himself - McCoy was the character that was living in the old days (the 60's), skeptical of the cynical future that he found himself in and unwilling to be drawn into the issues, with Kirk representing the man who, for better or worse, finds himself at the ides of change and has to reach out to new and old companions to get the job done (it illustrates the internal struggle that Roddenberry felt for bringing Star Trek back.) He didn't particularly feel that the future was as great as he'd hoped for, and he was cynical of how it might be used for something else, while realizing its need more than ever.
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Post by Sweet FA on Oct 21, 2017 6:12:18 GMT
One of the better scenes from the deeply flawed and ponderous Star Trek TMP. The proferred handshake is a very powerful device, it's very hard almost impossible for an old friend to decline and snub such an offer. I've always thought it would've been nice if they had reworked this scene for the Virmire survivor either in ME2 or ME3. On a side note it seems that Bones has been keeping himself busy as a member of a 23rd Century Bee Gees tribute act touring interstellar 1970's theme bars in his time away from Star Fleet. Karl Urban has said that the medallion he wears at the end of Star Trek Beyond, as well as his shirt being open, is an homage to DeForest Kelley's similar first appearance as McCoy in the above scene from Star Trek: The Motion Picture. I'd have preferred a very, very stern 'the reason you suck' speech aimed at their inability to let go of past issues (Ashley in particular) that have alienated them from the rest of the crew and Shepard, as well as a substantial justification for being in Cerberus (for pro-Cerberus players like myself) that calls out the so-called 'good' guys' complete inability to do any good by humanity and how Cerberus answered the call, while also addressing the changing of LI's (my Shepard puts Ashley to pasture for Miranda) more meaningfully than the feeble, sheepish dodging of the question in the ME3 hospital. Of course, that's neither here nor there, and is a plot-point in a thread that has long since been discussed to death. Suffice to say, this works better here, though it reminds me of how forceful Bill's acting could be. Part of the Bones' 'beard and medallion' shtick in 'The Motionless Picture' was to be a meta-representation for the series in a changing time and somewhat of a personal reflection for Gene himself - McCoy was the character that was living in the old days (the 60's), skeptical of the cynical future that he found himself in and unwilling to be drawn into the issues, with Kirk representing the man who, for better or worse, finds himself at the ides of change and has to reach out to new and old companions to get the job done (it illustrates the internal struggle that Roddenberry felt for bringing Star Trek back.) He didn't particularly feel that the future was as great as he'd hoped for, and he was cynical of how it might be used for something else, while realizing its need more than ever. I've always played a pragmatic Shepard myself as a kind of Kirk/Sisko hybrid. Just to clarify using a variation of this scene would be in the context of a completely different personal fantasy Virmire survivor trilogy story arc, as I think they did both characters a major disservice with their treatment in ME2 and ME3. So the actual VS story arc would be completely different and irrelevant, sorry for any confusion I should have made myself a bit clearer. Getting back on Star Trek and on topic, do you think that when any Star Trek production has a more modest budget that there is a greater focus on character/relationships/story/ethics (which i believe is playing to Star Trek's essential strengths). Sometimes when you throw a lot of money at a project this can get lost and overwhelmed in a Tsunami of visuals/action/sfx and Michael Bay-esque spectacle. We are then in danger of losing that more human empathetic quality that Star Trek has always had, it's heart and soul if you will. Are my Star Trek opinions somewhat akin to what Christopher Tolkien thinks about modern corporate interpretations/exploitations of his fathers work “They eviscerated the book by making it an action movie for young people aged 15 to 25, and it seems that The Hobbit will be the same kind of film.” “Tolkien has become a monster, devoured by his own popularity and absorbed into the absurdity of our time. The chasm between the beauty and seriousness of the work, and what it has become, has overwhelmed me. The commercialization has reduced the aesthetic and philosophical impact of the creation to nothing. There is only one solution for me: to turn my head away.” Again, that hand thing is a powerful thing, you'd have to be a real scumbag to reject your old buddy.
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Post by The Hype Himself on Oct 21, 2017 13:57:20 GMT
@standard Orbit, It's hard to say for certain. I mean, TOS had a modest budget, and a full third of the episodes in it are campy junk (I mean, 'Spock's Brain' level bad kind of junk.)
I wouldn't say that one is necessarily indicative of the other. There's too much variance in the field over whether money leads to an emphasis on action and spectacle vs. a grounded character study or morality play, and even more so compared to the actual quality of a given episode.
For every ENT episode like 'Shuttlepod One' that was filmed on a budget with a minimal cast and even less theatrics that became a classic, you get the ENT episode like 'A Night in Sickbay,' also filmed on a budget with a minimal cast and even less theatrics... and is regarded as one of the worst episodes of Enterprise (for good reason.)
It's something to consider however - fiscal initiative aside, Star Trek Discovery has been lacking in that really 'human/moral/empathetic' factor. I'm not expecting it to be as deeply philosophical as the finer episodes of TNG or DS9, but DIS hasn't yet found that quality that the other shows all eventually mastered (albeit, how well is up for debate.)
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2017 20:40:45 GMT
Finally finished ep 5. I liked it. In regards to the spore drive and mycelial(sp?) network I am indifferent. It's a bit of a stretch but I have no problems slotting some "space magic" into Star Trek. Actually I suspect this iteration will employ a lot more of it, but that's just a hunch. I enjoyed seeing a bit more of Lorcas personality and history. His choice to blow up his own crew has me hoping he'll get acquire more depth and give the show a window to access some darker moral themes. Somewhat similar to how having access to an ex-patriot Cardassian spymaster in Garak as a connecting character let DS9 explore themes it might not have, or O'Brien's military past as another example.
Ash is interesting, and I would say after a quick read of the evidence that the fan theory is likely true. It also falls in line with my suspicion of more space magic. I expect space magic to be used liberally in regards to the Klingon retrovirus clusterfuck SNAFU. God what a nightmare for a writer to have to clean up while attempting to play the lines between alternate universes and disparate canon. Insofar as canon goes I am pretty lenient, I don't really care if a Constitution class ship designed decades ago has to get reimagined as something a bit more modern. It's the story, character arches, and culture that I am most interested in. I found myself not particularly liking Mudd. Specifically the acting, it felt forced, delivered.
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Post by colfoley on Oct 23, 2017 6:52:25 GMT
So 'Lethe' was probably the weakest episode of the season, but still pretty good. I especially liked the character reversal in it compared to last episode. In the last episode it was very much about Saru gaining confidence in himself and his ability to command. He did not know himself, and resented Burnham taking away his chance 'to learn', so he was trying to come up with a formulae he could follow and discovered, because he dealt with several difficult situations during the episode...made right and wrong choices...but he dealt with it...and learned, again that you do not have to say you are the Captain, you have to just be a Captain.
Which now brings us to Lethe and Lorca. Lorca has been awesome and everything you want from a Captain in the middle of a war. Bold, decisive, he pushes his crew to their limits and gives them the ability to see it out the end, sure...as this episode and a few other scenes in previous ones can point to...he often pushes or exceeds his authority. But he gets resuts. But, because of crazy bat Admiral lady, who has a personal axe to grind of her own, and of course Lorca does have his own issues...he starts doubting himself. He had faith in himself to get the job done, faith in himself, his crew, and his ship, to get the job done. But now? Lets call Starfleet for orders. And again this is probably the right thing to do, but not the Lorca thing to do.
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Post by Transcended One on Oct 23, 2017 18:55:16 GMT
So 'Lethe' was probably the weakest episode of the season, but still pretty good. I especially liked the character reversal in it compared to last episode. In the last episode it was very much about Saru gaining confidence in himself and his ability to command. He did not know himself, and resented Burnham taking away his chance 'to learn', so he was trying to come up with a formulae he could follow and discovered, because he dealt with several difficult situations during the episode...made right and wrong choices...but he dealt with it...and learned, again that you do not have to say you are the Captain, you have to just be a Captain.
Which now brings us to Lethe and Lorca. Lorca has been awesome and everything you want from a Captain in the middle of a war. Bold, decisive, he pushes his crew to their limits and gives them the ability to see it out the end, sure...as this episode and a few other scenes in previous ones can point to...he often pushes or exceeds his authority. But he gets resuts. But, because of crazy bat Admiral lady, who has a personal axe to grind of her own, and of course Lorca does have his own issues...he starts doubting himself. He had faith in himself to get the job done, faith in himself, his crew, and his ship, to get the job done. But now? Lets call Starfleet for orders. And again this is probably the right thing to do, but not the Lorca thing to do. I agree with you. The weakest so far, but still pretty good. But compared to each earlier Star Trek series where at least half of them were boring filler episodes, this is a nice improvement. Still, this 'Katra' thing sounds a bit like 'space magic' to me, but not more than having McCoy carrying Spock's soul in Star Trek III, or all the godlike beings in earlier shows. I'm guessing 'fans' will be getting even more worked up to the appearance of this Holodeck... And 'Constitution class, like the Enterprise' confirmed too.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2017 19:00:08 GMT
I thought that Spore drive becomes gel packs in Voyager eventually with adjustments. Haven’t seen episode 6 yet, looking forward to tonight.
Oh, and I adore Michael! She is awesome, and so composed and feels deep.
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Post by Cyonan on Oct 23, 2017 19:11:37 GMT
I didn't find the holodeck bit a huge travesty, but it's another mark on the list of "not really paying attention to the old canon". It's not going to make or break the show, but these are the details that would make me appreciate it quite a bit more if they paid attention to them.
As far as the Sarek/Burnham arc in Lethe, my problems with it are mostly just that they're using Sarek rather than some other Vulcan considering there is zero reference to her in any Star Trek that takes place after Discovery. It would have worked better if they had her foster father be a different Vulcan, and if you must then throw Sarek in a few episodes pertaining to the Vulcans(which would still make sense, he is an ambassador).
As far as the whole Katra thing goes I agree that it sounds kind of like space magic, but as Transcended points out it's not like the franchise hasn't had numerous examples of things that amount to space magic.
The Lorca stuff I'm liking. It's good to see another captain that doesn't get to spout the vaunted Starfleet ideals and simply just have everything work out for him in the end with little to no consequences.
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Post by phoray on Oct 23, 2017 20:55:10 GMT
I feel like the episode where Lorka got kidnapped doesn't mean they're going to give us a nicer fuzzier Captain.
Evil unapologetic warmonger Captain for the win. Leave the fuzziness to the underlings
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Post by colfoley on Oct 24, 2017 0:14:10 GMT
So 'Lethe' was probably the weakest episode of the season, but still pretty good. I especially liked the character reversal in it compared to last episode. In the last episode it was very much about Saru gaining confidence in himself and his ability to command. He did not know himself, and resented Burnham taking away his chance 'to learn', so he was trying to come up with a formulae he could follow and discovered, because he dealt with several difficult situations during the episode...made right and wrong choices...but he dealt with it...and learned, again that you do not have to say you are the Captain, you have to just be a Captain.
Which now brings us to Lethe and Lorca. Lorca has been awesome and everything you want from a Captain in the middle of a war. Bold, decisive, he pushes his crew to their limits and gives them the ability to see it out the end, sure...as this episode and a few other scenes in previous ones can point to...he often pushes or exceeds his authority. But he gets resuts. But, because of crazy bat Admiral lady, who has a personal axe to grind of her own, and of course Lorca does have his own issues...he starts doubting himself. He had faith in himself to get the job done, faith in himself, his crew, and his ship, to get the job done. But now? Lets call Starfleet for orders. And again this is probably the right thing to do, but not the Lorca thing to do. I agree with you. The weakest so far, but still pretty good. But compared to each earlier Star Trek series where at least half of them were boring filler episodes, this is a nice improvement. Still, this 'Katra' thing sounds a bit like 'space magic' to me, but not more than having McCoy carrying Spock's soul in Star Trek III, or all the godlike beings in earlier shows. I'm guessing 'fans' will be getting even more worked up to the appearance of this Holodeck... And 'Constitution class, like the Enterprise' confirmed too. It may be a bit blunt, but it was used to good effect in Lethe and in expanding on Burnham's character. And Sarek. That was actually an interesting reveal at the end and an interesting twist on established lore. Good name dropping too. I thought that Spore drive becomes gel packs in Voyager eventually with adjustments. Haven’t seen episode 6 yet, looking forward to tonight. Oh, and I adore Michael! She is awesome, and so composed and feels deep. The latest episode actually added a lot of needed depth to Burnham's character. I didn't find the holodeck bit a huge travesty, but it's another mark on the list of "not really paying attention to the old canon". It's not going to make or break the show, but these are the details that would make me appreciate it quite a bit more if they paid attention to them. As far as the Sarek/Burnham arc in Lethe, my problems with it are mostly just that they're using Sarek rather than some other Vulcan considering there is zero reference to her in any Star Trek that takes place after Discovery. It would have worked better if they had her foster father be a different Vulcan, and if you must then throw Sarek in a few episodes pertaining to the Vulcans(which would still make sense, he is an ambassador). As far as the whole Katra thing goes I agree that it sounds kind of like space magic, but as Transcended points out it's not like the franchise hasn't had numerous examples of things that amount to space magic. The Lorca stuff I'm liking. It's good to see another captain that doesn't get to spout the vaunted Starfleet ideals and simply just have everything work out for him in the end with little to no consequences. Star Trek has always had a dubious relationship wih canon and continuity in the past, why should it really change? Only shows that gave much of a rats butt about such things were DS9 and later Enterprise. And obviously Discovery is trying to establish its own internal logic that fits in with established Star Trek stuff, but not exactly following it. Still they are trying and they are trying to find their own unique ways around the problem. The cloaking device is not quite the cloaking device, the holodeck is not quite the holodeck we are used to in the 24th century. Its different. I mean I wish they had set the show in the 25th century, it would have been interesting, buuuut I get why they didn't either. And it still works. Still my one little problem with the show and the through show so far: Just how unprofessional Starfleet is being. I mean don't get me wrong I like them being taken down a couple of pegs but in the show Starfleet has always seemed so...composed and together.
And granted I have never served, and granted Starfleet officers have had their issues in the past, but just everyone has an axe to grind on this show or a chip on their shoulder. It makes sense, its realistic, but its the only thing about the show that does not strike me as 'Star Trek.' Fair or not. I feel like the episode where Lorka got kidnapped doesn't mean they're going to give us a nicer fuzzier Captain. Evil unapologetic warmonger Captain for the win. Leave the fuzziness to the underlings I think it would be a mistake to characterize Lorca as being 'evil.' He is damaged goods sure, and much like Kirk in Star Trek VI he has a very personal reason to hate the Klingons. But he still operates more under the parameters of chaotic neutral, if you want to drag RPGs into this. He just wants to see the job done. Oooh he is like the Operative from Serenity, or Section 31 in later Trek. Willing to do morally questionable things with the long term goal of keeping the Federation intact.
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Post by colfoley on Oct 24, 2017 0:50:53 GMT
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Post by Ruliya on Oct 24, 2017 1:03:56 GMT
colfoley You're joking right? Enterprise tore up the cannon handbook in the literal intro sequence of the pilot and didn't give a shit about it from there on in They opened with a Klingon, which at the time canonically they didn't make first contact with until 10 years later iirc. What pained me most about Enterprise is they had so much potential, but from the get go it was clear they didn't care. Such a waste. Just like Discovery. That being said on the case of both Enterprise and Discovery, they're good shows, great sci fi series' in their own rights, they're just not really 'Trek' shows. If you follow. And yeah, Enterprise had some great 'Trek' type episodes, like Terra Nova and Dear Doctor, where they talk about what to do, before the Prime Directive was instituted. Making you wonder, at the time, what the Vulcan's version would be. But good episodes dotted about, can't erase the 'Time War' or the Suliban and the Xindi having never been mentioned ever before, which you think they might have been, even if a little bit. Or having the Romulans be around, despite canon saying they didn't meet until the Earth-Romulan War, several years after the episodes in Enterprise injected them. I'm not totally rigid in my fandom of Trek, but you can't just rewrite whatever you want. If you do a 'before' series, you can't have stuff you've never seen or heard of before, like the Suliban or the Spore Drive, or even a Klingon/Starfleet war while the Enterprise was an actual thing... What's that saying, they were so unimportant events to never be mentioned again? The whole silence with the Klingon's for a century, I'm pretty sure is BS canon wise, I mean at least Enterprise tried to fix the TOS Klingon's with the virus thing. Discovery Klingon's look completely different from any other type of Klingon ever seen before, how do we even begin to explain that canonically? Another thing, the 'old style wall transporters' ... even Enterprise had the transporters we know and see in every other Star Trek. They cannot be 'old tech' coz even older tech wasn't like that. You can put this down to drunky ramblings if you want, but this just isn't plausible from within Primeverse Trek. Just like Enterprise deviated too much, so does Discovery. They mention Archer in Kelvinverse, and Discovery seems more Kelvinverse, so there's an out. I read a thing that states most of the people regretted adding in Riker and Troi in that final episode of Enterprise and I can see why.
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Post by colfoley on Oct 24, 2017 1:27:53 GMT
colfoley You're joking right? Enterprise tore up the cannon handbook in the literal intro sequence of the pilot and didn't give a shit about it from there on in They opened with a Klingon, which at the time canonically they didn't make first contact with until 10 years later iirc. What pained me most about Enterprise is they had so much potential, but from the get go it was clear they didn't care. Such a waste. Just like Discovery. That being said on the case of both Enterprise and Discovery, they're good shows, great sci fi series' in their own rights, they're just not really 'Trek' shows. If you follow. And yeah, Enterprise had some great 'Trek' type episodes, like Terra Nova and Dear Doctor, where they talk about what to do, before the Prime Directive was instituted. Making you wonder, at the time, what the Vulcan's version would be. But good episodes dotted about, can't erase the 'Time War' or the Suliban and the Xindi having never been mentioned ever before, which you think they might have been, even if a little bit. Or having the Romulans be around, despite canon saying they didn't meet until the Earth-Romulan War, several years after the episodes in Enterprise injected them. I'm not totally rigid in my fandom of Trek, but you can't just rewrite whatever you want. If you do a 'before' series, you can't have stuff you've never seen or heard of before, like the Suliban or the Spore Drive, or even a Klingon/Starfleet war while the Enterprise was an actual thing... What's that saying, they were so unimportant events to never be mentioned again? The whole silence with the Klingon's for a century, I'm pretty sure is BS canon wise, I mean at least Enterprise tried to fix the TOS Klingon's with the virus thing. Discovery Klingon's look completely different from any other type of Klingon ever seen before, how do we even begin to explain that canonically? Another thing, the 'old style wall transporters' ... even Enterprise had the transporters we know and see in every other Star Trek. They cannot be 'old tech' coz even older tech wasn't like that. You can put this down to drunky ramblings if you want, but this just isn't plausible from within Primeverse Trek. Just like Enterprise deviated too much, so does Discovery. They mention Archer in Kelvinverse, and Discovery seems more Kelvinverse, so there's an out. I read a thing that states most of the people regretted adding in Riker and Troi in that final episode of Enterprise and I can see why. 1, I did say the latter part of Enterprise cared about continuity. And its own internal continuity too. Star Trek has, again from the beginning terribe continuiuity. And its a staple of the entire franchise. It had stuff which contradicted itself all the time, even the stuff which contradicted the other stuff. This isn't exactly a bad thing mind you. After all Stargate also had pretty bad continuity up until season 3. Its just a flaw of episodic television with...as has been pointed out on youtube...several reboots, visual reboots, retcons, and resets. For most of its exisistance Trek has been episodic tv which does not really care about what happens in the next episode. Not until DS9. At best, Trek had internal continuity within its shows. 2. Do we mention Hiroshima or 9/11 in every day conversation? Again especially given the nature of Trek with each episode dealing with a specific mission or moral situation. 3. The Spore Drive is actually quite brilliant. Its clear they will never be able to duplicate the technology, hence why it will never be bought up again. Though it might have really come in handy for the USS Voyager.
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Post by Ruliya on Oct 24, 2017 1:46:03 GMT
colfoley You're joking right? Enterprise tore up the cannon handbook in the literal intro sequence of the pilot and didn't give a shit about it from there on in They opened with a Klingon, which at the time canonically they didn't make first contact with until 10 years later iirc. What pained me most about Enterprise is they had so much potential, but from the get go it was clear they didn't care. Such a waste. Just like Discovery. That being said on the case of both Enterprise and Discovery, they're good shows, great sci fi series' in their own rights, they're just not really 'Trek' shows. If you follow. And yeah, Enterprise had some great 'Trek' type episodes, like Terra Nova and Dear Doctor, where they talk about what to do, before the Prime Directive was instituted. Making you wonder, at the time, what the Vulcan's version would be. But good episodes dotted about, can't erase the 'Time War' or the Suliban and the Xindi having never been mentioned ever before, which you think they might have been, even if a little bit. Or having the Romulans be around, despite canon saying they didn't meet until the Earth-Romulan War, several years after the episodes in Enterprise injected them. I'm not totally rigid in my fandom of Trek, but you can't just rewrite whatever you want. If you do a 'before' series, you can't have stuff you've never seen or heard of before, like the Suliban or the Spore Drive, or even a Klingon/Starfleet war while the Enterprise was an actual thing... What's that saying, they were so unimportant events to never be mentioned again? The whole silence with the Klingon's for a century, I'm pretty sure is BS canon wise, I mean at least Enterprise tried to fix the TOS Klingon's with the virus thing. Discovery Klingon's look completely different from any other type of Klingon ever seen before, how do we even begin to explain that canonically? Another thing, the 'old style wall transporters' ... even Enterprise had the transporters we know and see in every other Star Trek. They cannot be 'old tech' coz even older tech wasn't like that. You can put this down to drunky ramblings if you want, but this just isn't plausible from within Primeverse Trek. Just like Enterprise deviated too much, so does Discovery. They mention Archer in Kelvinverse, and Discovery seems more Kelvinverse, so there's an out. I read a thing that states most of the people regretted adding in Riker and Troi in that final episode of Enterprise and I can see why. 1, I did say the latter part of Enterprise cared about continuity. And its own internal continuity too. Star Trek has, again from the beginning terribe continuiuity. And its a staple of the entire franchise. It had stuff which contradicted itself all the time, even the stuff which contradicted the other stuff. This isn't exactly a bad thing mind you. After all Stargate also had pretty bad continuity up until season 3. Its just a flaw of episodic television with...as has been pointed out on youtube...several reboots, visual reboots, retcons, and resets. For most of its exisistance Trek has been episodic tv which does not really care about what happens in the next episode. Not until DS9. At best, Trek had internal continuity within its shows. 2. Do we mention Hiroshima or 9/11 in every day conversation? Again especially given the nature of Trek with each episode dealing with a specific mission or moral situation. 3. The Spore Drive is actually quite brilliant. Its clear they will never be able to duplicate the technology, hence why it will never be bought up again. Though it might have really come in handy for the USS Voyager. Did you? My apologies, I tend to skim read long posts. But again, later series' had the Xindi, the 'romulan' stuff which just wasn't canon at the time. I think you're vastly overlooking TNG, which in my mind is where most of the canon is begun, TOS, bless it, always will be a product of its time, tech and story wise. But it still has a lot of stuff, which I'm pretty certain TNG stuck too, coz Rodenberry was still alive for the first few years. DS9 did good with its own continuity, and coz it overlapped with the end of TNG held up some stuff there. I think we can all agree Voyager was where they began to do whatever they wanted. RIP true Q and Borg To point 2, yes, when it's relevant. Many times in Trek has past atrocities been brought up, in TNG they brought up stuff about their WW3, and the aftermath culture several times - usually in the Q episodes. Q was the best. They mention the Tomed Incident, one with the Romulans that iirc ended with the treaty of Algeron and the banning of Federation cloaking tech. Bad stuff is brought up when context matters. Speaking of cloaking tech, the canon rule as I remember it is the Klingons gave the Romulans ship designs (which is why Romulan ships in TOS were D7 types) and the Romulans gave the Klingons cloaking tech. Now it's been so long since I've watched Enterprise I don't remember if the Klingons have cloaks or not. I remember the Romulans do though. To point 3: Quite brilliant indeed, so brilliant in fact you gave yourself your own problem. Why wouldn't have Voyager have tried that? It would have to be in the logs somewhere. They tried a multitude of Delta Quadrant tech. Some were pretty far fetched too. But then Voyager was never meant for a quick trip home, that would have ruined the series Also as an addendum, one of the reasons I love TNG and Picard the most:
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Post by colfoley on Oct 24, 2017 1:55:48 GMT
1, I did say the latter part of Enterprise cared about continuity. And its own internal continuity too. Star Trek has, again from the beginning terribe continuiuity. And its a staple of the entire franchise. It had stuff which contradicted itself all the time, even the stuff which contradicted the other stuff. This isn't exactly a bad thing mind you. After all Stargate also had pretty bad continuity up until season 3. Its just a flaw of episodic television with...as has been pointed out on youtube...several reboots, visual reboots, retcons, and resets. For most of its exisistance Trek has been episodic tv which does not really care about what happens in the next episode. Not until DS9. At best, Trek had internal continuity within its shows. 2. Do we mention Hiroshima or 9/11 in every day conversation? Again especially given the nature of Trek with each episode dealing with a specific mission or moral situation. 3. The Spore Drive is actually quite brilliant. Its clear they will never be able to duplicate the technology, hence why it will never be bought up again. Though it might have really come in handy for the USS Voyager. Did you? My apologies, I tend to skim read long posts. But again, later series' had the Xindi, the 'romulan' stuff which just wasn't canon at the time. I think you're vastly overlooking TNG, which in my mind is where most of the canon is begun, TOS, bless it, always will be a product of its time, tech and story wise. But it still has a lot of stuff, which I'm pretty certain TNG stuck too, coz Rodenberry was still alive for the first few years. DS9 did good with its own continuity, and coz it overlapped with the end of TNG held up some stuff there. I think we can all agree Voyager was where they began to do whatever they wanted. RIP true Q and Borg To point 2, yes, when it's relevant. Many times in Trek has past atrocities been brought up, in TNG they brought up stuff about their WW3, and the aftermath culture several times - usually in the Q episodes. Q was the best. They mention the Tomed Incident, one with the Romulans that iirc ended with the treaty of Algeron and the banning of Federation cloaking tech. Bad stuff is brought up when context matters. Speaking of cloaking tech, the canon rule as I remember it is the Klingons gave the Romulans ship designs (which is why Romulan ships in TOS were D7 types) and the Romulans gave the Klingons cloaking tech. Now it's been so long since I've watched Enterprise I don't remember if the Klingons have cloaks or not. I remember the Romulans do though. To point 3: Quite brilliant indeed, so brilliant in fact you gave yourself your own problem. Why wouldn't have Voyager have tried that? It would have to be in the logs somewhere. They tried a multitude of Delta Quadrant tech. Some were pretty far fetched too. But then Voyager was never meant for a quick trip home, that would have ruined the series Also as an addendum, one of the reasons I love TNG and Picard the most: Yes it mentioned some events but that does not follow that theyd have to mention all the events. The only way that the Xindi stuff would be a lore break is if a future episode of Trek specifically mentioned that part of Florida being intact (or something along those lines). But then again they were slightly dealing with time travel too... I doubt the Voyager could have used it. Granted we do not know how yet but I would not be the least bit surprised if by the end of the series, or maybe even the end of the season, the S-Drive proves ultimatley unviable. Or...well illega. Afterall Stamets did conduct illegal experiments to get the thing working the second time. It could be possible that Starfleet just wiped it from the record. The cloaking device the Klingons have is similarly unique. Granted we do not know the details but it has been made very clear the rest of the Empire does not have access to the technology. Yet. And again something likely will happen to keep it from them so they have to go to the Romulans in the Kirk era.
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