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Post by colfoley on Feb 12, 2018 22:59:39 GMT
'Of Wishes Were Horses' was early enough to not have a clearly cut characterization to Bashir or Dax - it was made when Bashir was still meant to be the 'newby loudmouth whose totally full of himself' (though I personally never saw that aspect of his characterization,) and when Dax was supposed to be more of a calm, ageless, ethereal character. Sure. But one of the things lore runner is doing is attempting to reconcile the two characters. I mean obviously they had never considered Julian being genetically engineered at this point but it's fun to speculate especially when apparent character inconsistencies occur, which imo his having a fantasy of Dax being submissive does not match his later character. Though it is in line with his personae he is establishing early on
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Post by phoray on Feb 13, 2018 0:57:54 GMT
But where do they go from here. Can they risk creating brand new arcs for these characters, brand new lies they have to over come, brand new issues that will forge them into even better people...or will this be a fairly typical ST show? (please no) Or will we get new characters? I don't know if you noticed, but there are like 4+ other characters on the show who haven't gotten any focus. and I'm terrible at names, so here is my list: Black dude, black chick, robot chick, Forehead metal girl..... And I hope they'll leave the empress out of the rest of the show, but Lorca is totally coming back. Possibly posessing Stamets via his genetic spores.
calling it now.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 13, 2018 2:11:25 GMT
But where do they go from here. Can they risk creating brand new arcs for these characters, brand new lies they have to over come, brand new issues that will forge them into even better people...or will this be a fairly typical ST show? (please no) Or will we get new characters? I don't know if you noticed, but there are like 4+ other characters on the show who haven't gotten any focus. and I'm terrible at names, so here is my list: Black dude, black chick, robot chick, Forehead metal girl..... And I hope they'll leave the empress out of the rest of the show, but Lorca is totally coming back. Possibly posessing Stamets via his genetic spores.
calling it now. I know. But they are unknowns, and while that is ultimatley your point it makes it difficult to speculate about their futures. The only character that we know enough about to assume she has a backstory that could make a character arc would be Detmer (Discovery's conn officer, the redhead with the weird facial implant.) But her likely character arc would follow from the Klingon War, and while I suspect a subplot will go on for a while involving the fallout from the Klingon War, I do not think that will be really connected to what is going on with the Discovery. Of course the other possibility is Discovery needs a new CMO and tactical officer and maybe a new Captain so any one of those could prove interesting new characters.
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Post by yourfunnyuncle on Feb 13, 2018 10:06:52 GMT
I don't know if you noticed, but there are like 4+ other characters on the show who haven't gotten any focus. and I'm terrible at names, so here is my list: Black dude, black chick, robot chick, Forehead metal girl..... And I hope they'll leave the empress out of the rest of the show, but Lorca is totally coming back. Possibly posessing Stamets via his genetic spores.
calling it now. I know. But they are unknowns, and while that is ultimatley your point it makes it difficult to speculate about their futures. The only character that we know enough about to assume she has a backstory that could make a character arc would be Detmer (Discovery's conn officer, the redhead with the weird facial implant.) But her likely character arc would follow from the Klingon War, and while I suspect a subplot will go on for a while involving the fallout from the Klingon War, I do not think that will be really connected to what is going on with the Discovery. Of course the other possibility is Discovery needs a new CMO and tactical officer and maybe a new Captain so any one of those could prove interesting new characters. What about Airiam (the cyborg)? Surely there must be an interesting reason why she has that level of augmentation? And it could be compared and contrasted with Detmer's cybernetic eye thing... The bridge crew in general had more to do in the second half of the season. I do think that the showrunners were paving the way to expand their roles next year. As I said, the fact that they are going to Vulcan suggests that the next captain may be from there. I saw someone suggest that it could be T'Pol, but despite the fact that she should theoretically still be alive, that seems pretty far-fetched. In any case, a Vulcan captain would create an interesting new dynamic.
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Post by Transcended One on Feb 13, 2018 19:11:44 GMT
I found Discovery's Season finale less exciting than most episodes leading up to it, but it could have been worse. I do like the resolution to the Klingon Incident though. At least The Enterprise looks like more like a hybrid between the TOS and TMP Enterprises than the Abramstrek Enterprise... I was wondering when any of that class starts to show up besides a wireframe model
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Post by alanc9 on Feb 13, 2018 20:19:13 GMT
Did anyone else immediately think of Wing Commander 3 when the Empress' plan became clear? Except that this time we don't actually drop the T-bomb.
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Post by Transcended One on Feb 14, 2018 5:00:58 GMT
Did anyone else immediately think of Wing Commander 3 when the Empress' plan became clear? Except that this time we don't actually drop the T-bomb. There are a lot of parallels between the Klingons and Kilrathi in the first place, but you're right about the Heart of the Tiger-plotline.
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Post by newnation on Feb 14, 2018 20:18:52 GMT
I watched the first episode of Discovery and was not impressed because of some of the new lore turned me off and the fact that it bored the hell out of me. However, some of the reviews and info I'm hearing about it have reignited my curiosity about it. Should I give this show another try?
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Post by The Hype Himself on Feb 14, 2018 21:03:34 GMT
'New lore?'
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Post by newnation on Feb 14, 2018 21:32:14 GMT
I've only seen the first episode and the new things they showed with the Klingons are new to me. I haven't come across any show are movie that had them depicted like....well...that. I don't recall Enterprise even having them portrayed like that.
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Post by alanc9 on Feb 14, 2018 21:43:50 GMT
You mean the makeup? That's never been consistent.
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Post by newnation on Feb 14, 2018 21:52:46 GMT
I was also under the impression that they didn't care about the remains of those that died. I also heard something about a completely new warpdrive powered by spores.
Is this show's tone like ToS/TNG, Ds9/VOY, or something entirely different?
Should I give this another chance?
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Post by The Hype Himself on Feb 14, 2018 22:18:00 GMT
The designs were only inconsistent if you look at it purely historically - from The Motion Picture to ENT the design for the Klingons was about the same, and that was the lion's share of the franchise. The other differences in TOS were explained in ENT to be the result of failed genetic engineering experiments. As for DIS, the explanation for the Klingons is that it's a radical religious group who have kept themselves 'genetically pure.'
This would be more believable if not every Klingon in the series looked exactly like the 'pure' Klingons - this disrupts their physical portrayal both after and before DIS' point in the timeline.
As for the other differences, the act of taking care of Klingon dead was pretty weird, yeah - Klingons see a dead body as an empty shell, with the soul of the warrior having already departed to Sto'vo'kor (or Gre'thor,) and aside from the 'death howl' to herald the arrival of a new warrior into Sto'vo'kor, the dead are to be considered no more than biological waste. I take it that the treatment of the Klingon dead in DIS is something to do with the radical cult.
At least, I hope this is the case - I'd be quite triggered if they changed the lore - especially after they stated that this is to be beholden to the Prime Universe and its rules.
And the 'Spore' Warpdrive is just stupid-awful in my opinion. It's just a plot-convenient narrative device made with little/no regard to existing canon, and made through an insidious means of retcon in which the showrunners take advantage of the fact that no such device 'hasn't' been denied to exist, allowing them to (disingenously, in my opinion) insert something or whatever into the series and claim that it doesn't explicitly violate canon, even if it implicitly messes with stuff.
Unfortunately, DIS is to be considered canon, due to it explicitly taking place in the Prime timeline, thus leaving the door open for massive, glaring internal inconsistencies. It'd be a lot easier if it wasn't in the Prime timeline, since you could just ignore it all and say 'well, they developed differently than in the Prime universe,' as the Kelvin-timeline does.
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Post by alanc9 on Feb 14, 2018 22:55:57 GMT
OTOH, the spore drive is being shown to be dangerous and unreliable, and the whole "maybe can exterminate all life in all possible universes" is a pretty big downside.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 14, 2018 23:08:53 GMT
OTOH, the spore drive is being shown to be dangerous and unreliable, and the whole "maybe can exterminate all life in all possible universes" is a pretty big downside. I do think those effects would only apply to how the the Terrans were using the technology and not the Spore Drive itself...
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Post by yourfunnyuncle on Feb 14, 2018 23:15:22 GMT
I couldn't really care less about how the Klingons look, but the spore drive was unnecessary and more than a bit silly. Luckily I really enjoyed the show despite that.
It's not quite quite like any other Star Trek shows, as it's a character-based season-long story, dealing with some darker themes than is usual. The fact that the show doesn't effectively reset with every episode meant that we could get to know the characters far more quickly as they could actually have development through the season. All that said, it's supposed to be getting a bit more like old-school Trek next season.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2018 23:16:52 GMT
As for DIS, the explanation for the Klingons is that it's a radical religious group who have kept themselves 'genetically pure.' Er, when was that specific instance brought up?
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Post by The Hype Himself on Feb 15, 2018 0:10:36 GMT
As for DIS, the explanation for the Klingons is that it's a radical religious group who have kept themselves 'genetically pure.' Er, when was that specific instance brought up? In external statements by the producers, such as this. Technically, they make the statement that it's due to the size of the Klingon Empire and different planets having different 'variations' with the implication that the group shown in DIS are a 'purist' group. As for the 'why,' Brian Fuller, the original showrunner, wanted to redesign the Klingons and used the 'their appearance has changed in the past before!' excuse to justify it. I've always thought it was bogus because 1) the Klingon design was only changed once (in the Prime timeline,) and more in line with Roddenberry's vision at that, and 2) the original design was retconned to fit into canon as an 'augment' virus from genetic engineering experiments. The goal, they hope, was that people would be more invested with the characters and narrative rather than the designs/lore. If that's what they really thought, they're god-damned morons - they've obviously never faced hardcore Trekkies before. It's just stupid - the Klingons didn't need redesigning. Plus, I get the whole creative idea of 'story before lore' in that a creator should focus on making a good story rather than focusing on the other stuff, but we Trekkies are a technical bunch: we want to see things kept consistent and internally accurate. A lot of us are physicists, engineers, and people who have technical skills that follow fundamental rules that come in place before anything else - we're not as sympathetic to changes for artistic/design reasons, just as we aren't sympathetic to ideas that don't follow the laws of physics. We believe that the lore and existing canon/rules of the setting apply (immovably, unless specifically clarified and addressed as to why they aren't,) before the creation of narrative, and that all narrative must conform to the rules, not the other way around. Sadly, we're also perpetually in the minority, and the though we be the strongest of fans, we're the loudest of critics who are probably also the easiest to ignore.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 15, 2018 1:11:31 GMT
Er, when was that specific instance brought up? In external statements by the producers, such as this. Technically, they make the statement that it's due to the size of the Klingon Empire and different planets having different 'variations' with the implication that the group shown in DIS are a 'purist' group. As for the 'why,' Brian Fuller, the original showrunner, wanted to redesign the Klingons and used the 'their appearance has changed in the past before!' excuse to justify it. I've always thought it was bogus because 1) the Klingon design was only changed once (in the Prime timeline,) and more in line with Roddenberry's vision at that, and 2) the original design was retconned to fit into canon as an 'augment' virus from genetic engineering experiments. The goal, they hope, was that people would be more invested with the characters and narrative rather than the designs/lore. If that's what they really thought, they're god-damned morons - they've obviously never faced hardcore Trekkies before. It's just stupid - the Klingons didn't need redesigning. Plus, I get the whole creative idea of 'story before lore' in that a creator should focus on making a good story rather than focusing on the other stuff, but we Trekkies are a technical bunch: we want to see things kept consistent and internally accurate. A lot of us are physicists, engineers, and people who have technical skills that follow fundamental rules that come in place before anything else - we're not as sympathetic to changes for artistic/design reasons, just as we aren't sympathetic to ideas that don't follow the laws of physics. We believe that the lore and existing canon/rules of the setting apply (immovably, unless specifically clarified and addressed as to why they aren't,) before the creation of narrative, and that all narrative must conform to the rules, not the other way around. Sadly, we're also perpetually in the minority, and the though we be the strongest of fans, we're the loudest of critics who are probably also the easiest to ignore. lore inconsistencies would probably bother me more if Trek was ever consistent.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2018 1:50:41 GMT
Er, when was that specific instance brought up? In external statements by the producers, such as this. Technically, they make the statement that it's due to the size of the Klingon Empire and different planets having different 'variations' with the implication that the group shown in DIS are a 'purist' group. Thx, I had a hunch it was outside the show. Doesn't quite close that can of worms they opened. When I first heard the show would encompass the Klingon war (before I saw a DIS Klingon) I had hoped they'd go almost tribal in appearance. Fetishes, totems, brands, evoking savagery. *** On the canon/lore. I like them to be as consistent as possible but I give a wide berth. I can usually imagine a fairly reasonable explanation for most things. Trek has had some pretty good retcons to be fair as well. Which are hard to live up to. The TNG choice to explain why we are all humanoid was IMHO a extremely easy, efficient, yet still "Trek" solution. Worked well for something that did niggle at the back of my mind. Also fun episodes IIRC. (Been a long time since I did a TNG rewatch.)
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2018 2:02:00 GMT
Is this show's tone like ToS/TNG, Ds9/VOY, or something entirely different? Completely different. Don't expect anything like the old series. Well, maybe mash together old Trek's darkest moments and its craziest moments. Add some Star Wars, Aliens and Game of Thrones. I find it difficult to pinpoint.
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Post by alanc9 on Feb 15, 2018 5:08:14 GMT
If that's what they really thought, they're god-damned morons - they've obviously never faced hardcore Trekkies before. It's just stupid - the Klingons didn't need redesigning. Plus, I get the whole creative idea of 'story before lore' in that a creator should focus on making a good story rather than focusing on the other stuff, but we Trekkies are a technical bunch: we want to see things kept consistent and internally accurate. A lot of us are physicists, engineers, and people who have technical skills that follow fundamental rules that come in place before anything else - we're not as sympathetic to changes for artistic/design reasons, just as we aren't sympathetic to ideas that don't follow the laws of physics. We believe that the lore and existing canon/rules of the setting apply (immovably, unless specifically clarified and addressed as to why they aren't,) before the creation of narrative, and that all narrative must conform to the rules, not the other way around. Sadly, we're also perpetually in the minority, and the though we be the strongest of fans, we're the loudest of critics who are probably also the easiest to ignore. The decision to redesign Klingons was probably made easier because they already knew that they weren't going to adopt the TOS art style wholesale anyway. DSC was always going to have its own look so what are a few foreheads here or there?
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Post by colfoley on Feb 15, 2018 8:21:56 GMT
As with all things I do not think there are really any rules to fiction. If someone violates 'lore' in the name of creating a good story. For instance over in Stargate both the series and the movie implies and actually shows that it is very easy to travel across multiple galaxies within one gate network. But, in the episode 'The Fifth Race' it is then established that the gate network, the seven cheveron addresses, were just limited to the Milky Way. I also just realized about Discovery: Its interesting given today's political climate within the United States that the ending was allowed to happen.
So Burnham's solution to end the War with the Klingons was to hand their society/ government over to an Ultra Fundamendalist, Ultra Nationalistic, Ultra Religious group/ individual who came to power via holding their race hostage via a world ending bomb.
I don't think anyone who pays the slightest attention to modern politics can at least point to multiple examples within real world geo politics.
But then this is something to admire about this show. That while some shows bend over backwards in the name of political correctness, apparently, this show takes on such issues head on and provides an interesting analysis of such issues.
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Post by alanc9 on Feb 15, 2018 19:09:48 GMT
People wanted nutty Trek idealism back? Well, there it is.
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Post by yourfunnyuncle on Feb 15, 2018 19:53:30 GMT
I think it's worth mentioning that it took them several movies and almost 25 seasons of four TV shows to properly address the previous change in the Klingons' appearance.
To me, such cosmetic changes aren't bothersome. Aesthetics change with the times that things are made, and that's OK by me. The spore drive is much more of an annoyance, especially as they gave themselves several ways to write it out, and as yet have failed to adequately use them. The show's not over yet, though, so we'll see...
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