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Post by mousestalker on Feb 15, 2018 20:01:28 GMT
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Post by colfoley on Feb 15, 2018 20:12:41 GMT
I think it's worth mentioning that it took them several movies and almost 25 seasons of four TV shows to properly address the previous change in the Klingons' appearance. To me, such cosmetic changes aren't bothersome. Aesthetics change with the times that things are made, and that's OK by me. The spore drive is much more of an annoyance, especially as they gave themselves several ways to write it out, and as yet have failed to adequately use them. The show's not over yet, though, so we'll see... the finale put the spore drive to bed once and for all.
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Post by yourfunnyuncle on Feb 15, 2018 21:23:08 GMT
I think it's worth mentioning that it took them several movies and almost 25 seasons of four TV shows to properly address the previous change in the Klingons' appearance. To me, such cosmetic changes aren't bothersome. Aesthetics change with the times that things are made, and that's OK by me. The spore drive is much more of an annoyance, especially as they gave themselves several ways to write it out, and as yet have failed to adequately use them. The show's not over yet, though, so we'll see... the finale put the spore drive to bed once and for all. No it didn't. Starfleet are looking for ways to control it without having a sentient being in the mix. That doesn't mean that Stamets can't break the rules in extremis, or that some less high-minded organisation couldn't steal the tech.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 15, 2018 23:40:01 GMT
the finale put the spore drive to bed once and for all. No it didn't. Starfleet are looking for ways to control it without having a sentient being in the mix. That doesn't mean that Stamets can't break the rules in extremis, or that some less high-minded organisation couldn't steal the tech.
Sure from an in universe perspective that makes sense but from a meta way its a way of writing it out where it probably will never be seen nor heard from again.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2018 23:43:02 GMT
No it didn't. Starfleet are looking for ways to control it without having a sentient being in the mix. That doesn't mean that Stamets can't break the rules in extremis, or that some less high-minded organisation couldn't steal the tech.
Sure from an in universe perspective that makes sense but from a meta way its a way of writing it out where it probably will never be seen nor heard from again. Entirely unsatisfactory way of closing that can of worms I got to say. I was hoping for a graceful exit, not cement shoes, an abandoned pier, and a swift kick.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 15, 2018 23:48:26 GMT
Sure from an in universe perspective that makes sense but from a meta way its a way of writing it out where it probably will never be seen nor heard from again. Entirely unsatisfactory way of closing that can of worms I got to say. I was hoping for a graceful exit, not cement shoes, an abandoned pier, and a swift kick. Meh I would have probably done something different IF I were in charge, but then that tends to happen most of the time. The point is that the Spore Drive was an interesting concept that was kind of misued in the general sense of things but it still worked for what they wanted it to do and now, unsatisfactory exit or not, they will likely move on.
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Post by yourfunnyuncle on Feb 15, 2018 23:51:18 GMT
No it didn't. Starfleet are looking for ways to control it without having a sentient being in the mix. That doesn't mean that Stamets can't break the rules in extremis, or that some less high-minded organisation couldn't steal the tech.
Sure from an in universe perspective that makes sense but from a meta way its a way of writing it out where it probably will never be seen nor heard from again. Nah. They've "written it out" in a way that makes it easy for it to be brought back into play at short notice, allowing them to use it now and again if they decide that their story needs it. They need to write a reason why no one would ever even consider using it again.
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Post by sjpelke on Feb 16, 2018 15:50:36 GMT
It was not a bad season finale. Pretty much everything that has been going on has been wrapped up. The Discovery will have a new captain which we will get to see in first episode of the next season.
How things will develop Klingon wise can go many ways. There might as well be a totally different storyline next season which will not involve Klingons at all.
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Post by Sifr on Feb 16, 2018 21:12:10 GMT
In external statements by the producers, such as this. Technically, they make the statement that it's due to the size of the Klingon Empire and different planets having different 'variations' with the implication that the group shown in DIS are a 'purist' group. As for the 'why,' Brian Fuller, the original showrunner, wanted to redesign the Klingons and used the 'their appearance has changed in the past before!' excuse to justify it. I've always thought it was bogus because 1) the Klingon design was only changed once (in the Prime timeline,) and more in line with Roddenberry's vision at that, and 2) the original design was retconned to fit into canon as an 'augment' virus from genetic engineering experiments. The dumbest thing is TOS-style of Klingons would have justified so much of their motivations in S1. Why were the Klingons in seclusion for 100 years?Because they were ashamed that they now looked human, becoming reclusive and avoiding the Federation entirely. Why do these Klingons have a fanatical desire to be "pure" and "Remain Klingon"?Because they aren't 100% Klingon anymore. They've got human traits "perverting" their genome... and they hate it. Why do they have a serious bone to pick with humanity in particular?Because it's easier to irrationally blame humans, than accept they dun goofed by trying to create Klingon Augments. --- Or if you want to change up the look, why not have your cake and eat it? Have the Klingons appearance run the gambit from the swarthy humans of TOS, to designs reminiscent of the TNG/DS9/VOY/ENT ones, to the significantly more alien, bald Klingons of Discovery? You could explain it away as the Klingons having attempted to fix their genetic problems to varying success. Klingons Houses that are more prominent in the Empire, with the wealth and resources to afford the treatments might look more like the TNG-era style Klingons we're more familiar with, while those who are poorer or out of favour are stuck looking more "human". Those seen in TOS were the soldiers of the Empire, so it's unlikely the military would waste giving gene therapy to anyone being sent out to fight (and die) on the front-lines. The baldness and elongated skulls of the DIS-type of Klingons could be explained as unforeseen side-effects of them trying to fix their genome. This has lead to some genetic throwback traits manifesting (the elongated skulls) and hair loss, as well as albinoism in the case of Voq. Or if you want to really do something new, why not a hybrid style where you have TOS Klingons with very faint ridge indentation on their foreheads? Similar to the ridges that Archer temporarily gained when he was infected with the Augment virus to help find a "cure"? --- It's not difficult to work around problems like this, rather than create new ones and incense a very opinionated passionate fanbase. Even if they couldn't use the old designs for legal reasons, they could have still tweaked them significantly to be visually reminiscent, but distinct enough to bypass copyright infringement. (For a good example of this in action, take "Oz, The Great and Powerful". Even though it cribbed a lot of inspiration from the iconic 1939 film, Disney had them use a slightly different hue of green for the Wicked Witch of the West's skin, so as not to infringe of MGM's copyright. They also advertised it as a prequel to the book, not the earlier film.)
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Post by The Hype Himself on Feb 16, 2018 21:26:10 GMT
I wouldn't say that Klingons have a bone to pick with humanity itself per se, but with the Federation. It's just that the Federation pretty much gets conflated with humanity all the time. I don't think it's Klingons specifically targeting humans.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2018 21:44:28 GMT
I wouldn't say that Klingons have a bone to pick with humanity itself per se, but with the Federation. It's just that the Federation pretty much gets conflated with humanity all the time. I don't think it's Klingons specifically targeting humans. They did recognize earth as a strategic symbol to destroy, humans maybe not but humanity perhaps.
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Post by alanc9 on Feb 17, 2018 0:37:18 GMT
I wouldn't say that Klingons have a bone to pick with humanity itself per se, but with the Federation. It's just that the Federation pretty much gets conflated with humanity all the time. I don't think it's Klingons specifically targeting humans. Trek's never really been able to resolve that one.
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Post by Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger on Feb 17, 2018 4:03:59 GMT
I wouldn't say that Klingons have a bone to pick with humanity itself per se, but with the Federation. It's just that the Federation pretty much gets conflated with humanity all the time. I don't think it's Klingons specifically targeting humans. Trek's never really been able to resolve that one.True -not humans specifically. I believe it was mentioned in the Star Trek Starfleet Command 3 game that Klingons had an adversion to the blue colored technology used by the Federation. EDIT: 2-16-2018 11:41 PM EST Yep. Validation the game was SFC3: Klingon Mission 14: So maybe they are so disgusted -just blow the disgusting ship out of the sky!
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Post by Sifr on Feb 17, 2018 15:14:53 GMT
I wouldn't say that Klingons have a bone to pick with humanity itself per se, but with the Federation. It's just that the Federation pretty much gets conflated with humanity all the time. I don't think it's Klingons specifically targeting humans. Maybe it's because the Federation operates out of Earth, it's military arm is Starfleet (the human organisation that existed pre-Federation) and the design lineage of Federation starships came from human built vessels (sorry Vulcans and Andorians, your designs are no longer required). It's no wonder why the Klingons think that humanity wants to homogenise everything and later refer to the Federation as a "Homo Sapiens only club" in Star Trek VI. Humanity does dominate the Federation and their humanist ideological ethos is the one that they wish to spread (and occasionally proselytise) to other races. Perhaps the Klingons are exaggerating slightly, but the Federation (and by extension, humanity) could appear to be a scary dogmatic cult at times, who want to make people confirm to their way of thinking and their values. We've seen a few instances of the Federation taking a dim view on those who go outside, challenge or outright reject their principles, such as the Maquis or the Space-Hippies. Everyone should want to be in Starfleet and live in paradise, right? But as Spock pointed out, a perfect utopia for one person can be an intolerable dystopia for another.
Perhaps Quark was onto something when he suggested that's why humanity has such trouble relating to the Ferengi (and I'd add, Klingons and Romulans), because those races have various qualities that remind humanity far too much of what they used to be like in the past.
Pretend as they may, many humans do seem to lord their (presumed) moral superiority over any races they think are "backwards" (particularly the Ferengi), which does make the Federation look a tad arrogant and judgmental sometimes.
Even if they aren't doing it intentionally or on purpose, you can't really can't blame those who finds it hard to buy into the Federation's claim they value all alien life and cultures... when they seem to look down on anyone with a culture they don't personally agree with. I still overall believe the Federation and Starfleet to be the good guys (most of the time) and that their ethos and ideology is overall a positive one (except when they sacrifice entire worlds to appease the almighty Prime Directive), but I can see the dystopian elements of the Federation that are buried just beneath the surface. (That's why I loved DS9 so much, because it really stopped to question how does a utopia function in practice and show a more nuanced look at the Roddenberry future, even if that meant showing some of the warts and all) Apologies if that did veer into slightly more ranty territory that I intended... I definitely can count myself among the opinionated passionate members of the fanbase I mentioned before.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 17, 2018 18:43:17 GMT
I wouldn't say that Klingons have a bone to pick with humanity itself per se, but with the Federation. It's just that the Federation pretty much gets conflated with humanity all the time. I don't think it's Klingons specifically targeting humans. Maybe it's because the Federation operates out of Earth, it's military arm is Starfleet (the human organisation that existed pre-Federation) and the design lineage of Federation starships came from human built vessels (sorry Vulcans and Andorians, your designs are no longer required). It's no wonder why the Klingons think that humanity wants to homogenise everything and later refer to the Federation as a "Homo Sapiens only club" in Star Trek VI. Humanity does dominate the Federation and their humanist ideological ethos is the one that they wish to spread (and occasionally proselytise) to other races. Perhaps the Klingons are exaggerating slightly, but the Federation (and by extension, humanity) could appear to be a scary dogmatic cult at times, who want to make people confirm to their way of thinking and their values. We've seen a few instances of the Federation taking a dim view on those who go outside, challenge or outright reject their principles, such as the Maquis or the Space-Hippies. Everyone should want to be in Starfleet and live in paradise, right? But as Spock pointed out, a perfect utopia for one person can be an intolerable dystopia for another.
Perhaps Quark was onto something when he suggested that's why humanity has such trouble relating to the Ferengi (and I'd add, Klingons and Romulans), because those races have various qualities that remind humanity far too much of what they used to be like in the past.
Pretend as they may, many humans do seem to lord their (presumed) moral superiority over any races they think are "backwards" (particularly the Ferengi), which does make the Federation look a tad arrogant and judgmental sometimes.
Even if they aren't doing it intentionally or on purpose, you can't really can't blame those who finds it hard to buy into the Federation's claim they value all alien life and cultures... when they seem to look down on anyone with a culture they don't personally agree with. I still overall believe the Federation and Starfleet to be the good guys (most of the time) and that their ethos and ideology is overall a positive one (except when they sacrifice entire worlds to appease the almighty Prime Directive), but I can see the dystopian elements of the Federation that are buried just beneath the surface. (That's why I loved DS9 so much, because it really stopped to question how does a utopia function in practice and show a more nuanced look at the Roddenberry future, even if that meant showing some of the warts and all) Apologies if that did veer into slightly more ranty territory that I intended... I definitely can count myself among the opinionated passionate members of the fanbase I mentioned before. pretty much what the Federation is.
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Post by Sifr on Feb 17, 2018 19:56:44 GMT
Something I'd like to see in future seasons; Is for Prime Lorca to return, but we subvert expectations by having him be barely any different from his Mirror counterpart. Turns out that Lorca is still the same ruthless, alpha dog that's determined to win at all costs, regardless of his universe of origin. Could throw in a brief cameo from Kirk's extended family, as Spock mentioned (in the 2009 film) that Kirk's father George lived long enough to see his son join Starfleet and rise to Captain in the Prime timeline. And it might be nice to see his brother Sam (and his sweet moustache) when he was still alive and well. And as "Conscience of the King" is one of my favourite TOS episode, why not have the Karidian players performing Shakespeare on a planet the Discovery crew visit, as a fun easter-egg and call forward.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 17, 2018 20:02:07 GMT
Something I'd like to see in future seasons; Is for Prime Lorca to return, but we subvert expectations by having him be barely any different from his Mirror counterpart. Turns out that Lorca is still the same ruthless, alpha dog that's determined to win at all costs, regardless of his universe of origin. Could throw in a brief cameo from Kirk's extended family, as Spock mentioned (in the 2009 film) that Kirk's father George lived long enough to see his son join Starfleet and rise to Captain in the Prime timeline. And it might be nice to see his brother Sam (and his sweet moustache) when he was still alive and well. And as "Conscience of the King" is one of my favourite TOS episode, why not have the Karidian players performing Shakespeare on a planet the Discovery crew visit, as a fun easter-egg and call forward. actually apparently there is a DSC book dealing with that.
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Post by yourfunnyuncle on Feb 17, 2018 21:49:11 GMT
Something I'd like to see in future seasons; Is for Prime Lorca to return, but we subvert expectations by having him be barely any different from his Mirror counterpart. Turns out that Lorca is still the same ruthless, alpha dog that's determined to win at all costs, regardless of his universe of origin. I'm pretty sure that Admiral Cornwell has already refuted that idea, both in what she said in the most recent episode and in her reaction to Lorca earlier in the season. I would still like to see him, though. It would be fun to see how Isaacs plays him.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 17, 2018 23:14:31 GMT
Whether we see Prime Lorca or not I do think there are a couple of reasons to believe they were similar characters. A. His little weapon's collection. Hardly anyone batted an eye. And the fact that his lieutenant, Discover's tactical officer before Tyler was practically a clone of her Terran counterpart.
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Post by yourfunnyuncle on Feb 18, 2018 0:40:10 GMT
Whether we see Prime Lorca or not I do think there are a couple of reasons to believe they were similar characters. A. His little weapon's collection. Hardly anyone batted an eye. And the fact that his lieutenant, Discover's tactical officer before Tyler was practically a clone of her Terran counterpart. I'm sure they'd have things in common - they were both leaders at the very least, but I'm sure they'd have plenty of differences too. That's what would be fun to explore. I think the weapon collection is a bit of a red herring - who on Discovery knew him from before? And how many even knew about the weapons? I suspect only those closest to him.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 19, 2018 6:39:31 GMT
Just finished 'the Foresaken.' abit of a boring episode only but had some nice character moments for Odo/ Luxana (they had a really sweet story actually), and then Julien and O'Brien's solution for the 'pup' was rather clever. Of course this is something that is never brought up again in the show and given some of the other computer problems which happen in the show and given some of the arcs you have to wonder why it...never got bored?
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Post by Sifr on Feb 26, 2018 22:55:55 GMT
I agree, I wish the Pup had been revisited. Perhaps in "Our Man Bahsir", the Pup realised the emergency transport was going wrong and people it cared for (especially O'Brien) were in danger, so shunted their patterns into the holosuite, as a desperate attempt to "save" them? He could have become a running gag like Morn, where we hear funny anecdotes of Pup's offscreen antics. Like Vic being frustrated with him showing up and tearing through his lounge (in the form of a giant dog), O'Brien and Bashir using him as a mascot in their Battle of Britain program, while Worf has fought alongside him (in the form of a Targ) in legendary Klingon battles. (Pup taking his nickname to heart and choosing various dogs as his avatar would be a fun twist. Despite evolving and maturing as the series goes on, Pup deliberately chooses to never engage with them in direct verbal communication, preferring to playfully make them figure out what he wants.) Shame they never developed this into a DS9 subplot, it had potential. --- Also about dropped subplots, did we ever find out what was the deal with the guys with Black Badges on Discovery? I hope they go back to this in S2, could there be a contingent of Section 31 operatives onboard? And is that how Empress Georgiou got a hold of the bomb and performed the probe switcheroo?
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Post by colfoley on Feb 26, 2018 23:12:58 GMT
I agree, I wish the Pup had been revisited. Perhaps in "Our Man Bahsir", the Pup realised the emergency transport was going wrong and people it cared for (especially O'Brien) were in danger, so shunted their patterns into the holosuite, as a desperate attempt to "save" them? He could have become a running gag like Morn, where we hear funny anecdotes of Pup's offscreen antics. Like Vic being frustrated with him showing up and tearing through his lounge (in the form of a giant dog), O'Brien and Bashir using him as a mascot in their Battle of Britain program, while Worf has fought alongside him (in the form of a Targ) in legendary Klingon battles. (Pup taking his nickname to heart and choosing various dogs as his avatar would be a fun twist. Despite evolving and maturing as the series goes on, Pup deliberately chooses to never engage with them in direct verbal communication, preferring to playfully make them figure out what he wants.) Shame they never developed this into a DS9 subplot, it had potential. --- Also about dropped subplots, did we ever find out what was the deal with the guys with Black Badges on Discovery? I hope they go back to this in S2, could there be a contingent of Section 31 operatives onboard? And is that how Empress Georgiou got a hold of the bomb and performed the probe switcheroo? it could have shown up in the occupation arc but then the Cardies probably deleted it or it went with Sisko's sabotage program.
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Post by Sifr on Feb 26, 2018 23:57:34 GMT
I suppose they could have also transferred Pup back home to Earth so Starfleet could study it and have people who could dedicate all their time to keeping it entertained.
Personally, I think this is what they should have done with Moriarty, rather than let him languish in the computer for all those years. Starfleet could have at least kept his program running and provided him with regular human contact to try to ease his confinement, while they searched for a way to bring him off the holodeck.
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Post by colfoley on Mar 5, 2018 8:36:55 GMT
So got to 'Duet' in my DS9 rewatch/ lore run. And one of the true stand out episodes for Star Trek in general and even Deep Space 9. A lot like Measure of a Man, it was highly philsophical and did what 'classic' Trek did best, posed an interesting problem, examined it (without too much moral preaching thank you), and then examined it. Also, like Measure of a Man, it was a great episode surrounded in a sea of medicroity (Season 1 of DS9, All of TNG in general). First of all terrific acting. Especially from 'Gul Dar Heal' actor and Nana Visitor. Excellent playing off of each other. And there was a lot for each individual character to do in this episode with the exception of Dax and O'Brien.
Sadly though this episode again is pretty stand alone, these events are never referenced again and don't effect anything. EXCEPT it really does begin multi dimensioning Kira's character, her arc begins here and she gets to become sympathetic to the Cardasians and not see them as a mono dimensional villain. And...with the Cardassians. This is the beginning of making them one of the only truly three dimensional races in Science Fiction. The Cardassasians aren't just a race of hats but a fully realized race, and this ep went a good long way to beginning that transformation.
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