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Post by Gileadan on Sept 28, 2017 6:51:10 GMT
Another juicy one, Puška vz. 24 versus the almighty super Kar98k. One introduced in 1924, the other in 1935, 11 years later (I'll let you guess which is which, it's fairly trivial). Both are Mauser system rifles. Both are nearly identical. How many will figure the joke out? Well, explain the joke please. One was designed in 1898, the other 1924.
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Post by Serza on Sept 28, 2017 9:38:56 GMT
Problem is that everyone and their mother bought it. Even people who never heard of RPGs before. My wild guess is, that's precisely the reason it redefined the genre. Easy for somthing to redefine a genre for you if you have no clue about the genre in the first place. I don't see that as a problem. In general one want's to attract new audiences and grow the genre's popularity. Anyway the point being that while this is a Dragon Age forum and the people here in all likelyhood have a pro-dragon age bias, it would be a mistake for anyone to suggest that Dragon Age is the bigger, more successful franchise when evidence seems to be pointing towards the contrary. Now, if one wants to argue that the real franchise dispute here is Bioware vs CDPR, given that we aren't talking about Dragon Age 4 vs Witcher 4(which I'm given to understand is a thing that is happening), then Bioware is almost undoubtedly the more successful in the long term. Yes, but we could argue - and not be wrong - that BioWare marketed the true-and-tried. Also Sapkowski gathered quite the, uh, gathering of fans before the games even existed. Personally I wasn't too impressed by the translation I had in my hand, but perhaps his prose is much better in the original. I also never bore much interest in the Witcher (to illustrate, I got to ME and DA through connections. I could connect ME to the real world, which was the initial spark. It managed to burn. I then managed to connect to DA via a crossover with ME, but that's a bit more obscure. I guess that spark only started a fire because Origins was so great and it had the BW touch to it like ME. Witcher had the connection in MY OWN HERITAGE which would be MUCH stronger than simply "Can connect to real life in 170 years with space magic" yet it failed to deliver on that. The only thing I have to thank it for is making me remember a few of the Slavic pantheon.) Problem is that everyone and their mother bought it. The Witcher 3 sold very well, but not quite THAT well. Skyrim could probably make that claim, though. Its sales top 30 million alone. I know people who normally wouldn't touch an RPG with a proverbial 10-foot pole that own Skyrim. Well, it's an idiom. The truth remains that W3 sold well enough for me to be able to use it, even with the exaggerating nature of it. Skyrim is a bit of a legend, to be honest. But it plays much much more loosely with the story, meaning that rather than having a strong plot and characters (seriously, characters in Skyrim are a tad weaker on average than any BioWare game, or even W3) it has a strong "create your own story" aspect to it. It's a sandbox RPG, not a "traditional" story RPG. It works for Skyrim (and Bethesda - what are the earlier TES games and Fallout 3 + New Vegas? And yes, NV was built on the precedent of FO3, much like KOTORII:TSL was built on the precedent of KOTOR) but it wouldn't work for others. Both BW and CDPR need strong stories and characters to hold their open world together. Now, I could argue that CDPR isn't that strong with an opinion, or just say they both need it and stamp "FACT" on it without risking that 90 percent of the forum will disagree. And we got to the core. The fact people keep comparing BioWare's work to the (so far only of such magnitude) success of CDPR is because the two companies have very similar, if not identical, philosophies. Lastly, my personal opinion: CDPR still hasn't done as well as BioWare for me. Then again, many disagree. Preferences. Opinions. Anything above I present as fact. This line or so - opinion. Another juicy one, Puška vz. 24 versus the almighty super Kar98k. One introduced in 1924, the other in 1935, 11 years later (I'll let you guess which is which, it's fairly trivial). Both are Mauser system rifles. Both are nearly identical. How many will figure the joke out? Well, explain the joke please. One was designed in 1898, the other 1924. Ah. You mean the Gewehr 98. Significant difference between the G98 and vz. 24. The vz. 24 is actually built on the Mauser system, but the Kar98k (which is the identical rifle in it's role, and actually even appearance) entered duty in 1935, eleven years after the vz. 24. I also think the 24 was actually designed in 1923, but that's a minor detail. Comparing the Gewehr 98 with BOTH the Kar98k and the vz. 24 defeats the purpose of comparison, as the two latter rifles were designed with a different philosophy and in a different era. The long 19th century for the G98 versus the short 20th century for the two carbine rifles. And I dare you to google "Long 19th century" and "Short 20th century".
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Post by majesticjazz on Sept 29, 2017 10:56:01 GMT
COULD CYBERPUNK 2077 HURT DA4? No,DAI already did that. You mean Bioware's best-selling game to date DAI? That's like saying The Witcher 3 will hurt Cyberpunk 2077. Well, DAI was also the only Bioware game to release on 5 platforms, so by default it should get the highes selling Bioware game.
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Post by Heimdall on Sept 29, 2017 12:18:52 GMT
You mean Bioware's best-selling game to date DAI? That's like saying The Witcher 3 will hurt Cyberpunk 2077. Well, DAI was also the only Bioware game to release on 5 platforms, so by default it should get the highes selling Bioware game. Should it? I would imagine those that bought it on the next gen consoles were upgrading and thus not buying it on the old consoles, which they would have bought it on if it had only been released for one generation. I'm not sure releasing it on multiple console generations would really enhance release sales in this instance. This was also coming off the much criticized DA2, making their sales achievements more impressive.
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Post by phoray on Sept 29, 2017 12:49:33 GMT
How has this dramatic hamster wheel of a non topic gone on 4 pages.
I'm boggled.
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Post by wright1978 on Sept 29, 2017 13:00:06 GMT
I'll just be glad to have 2 decent RPG's to be excited over playing.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2017 14:48:53 GMT
How has this dramatic hamster wheel of a non topic gone on 4 pages. I'm boggled. BNS is mighty.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Sept 29, 2017 17:25:45 GMT
I am going to assume that DA4 is coming out in late 2019 along with Cyberpunk 2077. I just dont see either game slipping into 2020 and they definitely arent coming 2018. This would put DA4 and Cyberpunk 2077 on a collision course. The key difference here being that they are completely different genres in every way. There may not be the same type of crossover of player that DA has with Witcher, because both of those are fantasy sword 'n' sorcery games, while Cyberpunk is just that, cyberpunk. I can liken it to the difference between Mass Effect and Dragon Age audiences. Yes, there are a lot of players that play both, but there are also a lot of players that are only interested in fantasy, or only interested in sci-fi, that never bothered with the other main Bioware franchise. I count myself in that group. MEA was my first ME game. While I enjoyed it, I much prefer the fantasy genre.
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Post by formerfiend on Sept 29, 2017 18:51:40 GMT
See, I disagree with that line of thought. I imagine that if you look at the venn diagram of fantasy vs sci fi fans, there'd be a huge amount of overlap, but you'd probably have more people who are into sci-fi but not fantasy than are into fantasy but not sci-fi. I don't have any hard evidence to back that up, granted.
There's a reason why sci-fi and fantasy are both lumped together in speculative, genre fiction. While there are major differences between the two - sci-fi's more about looking to the future and examining cultural issues where as fantasy is more about mythologizing. But the line between them isn't a sharp border, it's a blurry gradient. Hell, Dragon Age, despite using fantasy tropes and imagery, is actually closer to sci fi in that it uses those elements to make social commentary and examinations; in many ways it's closer to X-men than Lord of the Rings.
Cyberpunk's core audience is going to be coming from fans of the Cyberpunk tabletop game, which because of the nature of the tabletop gaming market, you're going to have a lot of crossover with Dungeons and Dragons fans, who are the type of people who are going to be playing Dragon Age. You're also going to have a large part of that audience that plays it for no other reason than it's the next CDPR game, so you'll have a lot of carry over from the Witcher franchise. And you're going to have people who'll be interested in both regardless of genre because they're both RPGs.
There isn't a one-to-one overlap between there player-bases, no. But I think it's a bigger overlap than can be easily dismissed by, one's sci-fi, one's fantasy, so they're not competing. They're triple-a video games. They're all competing.
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Post by ellawyn on Sept 29, 2017 18:58:50 GMT
Cyberpunk's core audience is going to be coming from fans of the Cyberpunk tabletop game, which because of the nature of the tabletop gaming market, you're going to have a lot of crossover with Dungeons and Dragons fans, who are the type of people who are going to be playing Dragon Age. Is this entirely true, though? I'll admit I'm not a table-top RPG buff, but I've dabbled a bit, and I still never heard of Cyberpunk until CDPR announced a game for it. I'd think most of Cyberpunk's core audience would be coming over from the Witcher's (And particularly the Witcher 3's) fans. Which I guess creates the same problem, but meh. I guess, to throw in my two cents, since I've posted now: Whether or not Cybperunk 2077 will hurt DA4 is dependent on a huge variety of factors that no one (Except maybe the developers) could even begin to guess at. Notably, the quality of each respective game, and how close together they'll be released. Those are what matters most, and no one knows anything about either one right now.
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Post by formerfiend on Sept 29, 2017 19:08:14 GMT
Cyberpunk's core audience is going to be coming from fans of the Cyberpunk tabletop game, which because of the nature of the tabletop gaming market, you're going to have a lot of crossover with Dungeons and Dragons fans, who are the type of people who are going to be playing Dragon Age. Is this entirely true, though? I'll admit I'm not a table-top RPG buff, but I've dabbled a bit, and I still never heard of Cyberpunk until CDPR announced a game for it. I'd think most of Cyberpunk's core audience would be coming over from the Witcher's (And particularly the Witcher 3's) fans. Which I guess creates the same problem, but meh. I guess, to throw in my two cents, since I've posted now: Whether or not Cybperunk 2077 will hurt DA4 is dependent on a huge variety of factors that no one (Except maybe the developers) could even begin to guess at. Notably, the quality of each respective game, and how close together they'll be released. Those are what matters most, and no one knows anything about either one right now. Cyberpunk was first released in 1988; it's third edition, released in 2005, was a failure so it's been kind of obscure since then, but it still has a strong cult following that grumble about how it was always better than Shadowrun(it wasn't in my opinion but I'm biased). The bulk of it's audience is coming from Witcher fans who are looking forward to CDPR's next project. But it has a rabid core fanbase that's been wanting a Cyberpunk revival for over a decade.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Sept 29, 2017 19:10:32 GMT
See, I disagree with that line of thought. I imagine that if you look at the venn diagram of fantasy vs sci fi fans, there'd be a huge amount of overlap, but you'd probably have more people who are into sci-fi but not fantasy than are into fantasy but not sci-fi. I don't have any hard evidence to back that up, granted. I think there is a difference between active (games) and passive (film, TV, books, comics) media. I like sci-fi as a genre. Heck, last year I watched the entirety of Star Trek TOS (+ animated and movies) for the 50th anniversary. I recently finished a run of DS9 (as I had never seen the entire show), and am currently rewatching TNG. I like sci-fi just fine. But I don't necessarily want to run around in that world. Also, aside from Star Wars and their unique use of "swords," most sci-fi will involve shooting some sort of gun, as Mass Effect does. I'm just not into that type of gameplay. I want to use swords and hack and slash enemies because swords look cool and that is fun gameplay to me.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2017 19:19:40 GMT
Wait, I found the context for this thread! See, it's a new game: Cyber, Anthem, Age... Cyber, Anthem, Age...
Played like Rock, Paper, Scissors, only the hand gestures being Crossed fingers, middle finger and hiding your arm behind your back.
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Post by formerfiend on Sept 29, 2017 19:20:16 GMT
See, I disagree with that line of thought. I imagine that if you look at the venn diagram of fantasy vs sci fi fans, there'd be a huge amount of overlap, but you'd probably have more people who are into sci-fi but not fantasy than are into fantasy but not sci-fi. I don't have any hard evidence to back that up, granted. I think there is a difference between active (games) and passive (film, TV, books, comics) media. I like sci-fi as a genre. Heck, last year I watched the entirety of Star Trek TOS (+ animated and movies) for the 50th anniversary. I recently finished a run of DS9 (as I had never seen the entire show), and am currently rewatching TNG. I like sci-fi just fine. But I don't necessarily want to run around in that world. Also, aside from Star Wars and their unique use of "swords," most sci-fi will involve shooting some sort of gun, as Mass Effect does. I'm just not into that type of gameplay. I want to use swords and hack and slash enemies because swords look cool and that is fun gameplay to me. Issue being that ultimately we all speak for ourselves here. I'm as likely to buy a sci-fi game as I am to buy a fantasy game. I like Fallout as much as I like Elder Scrolls. I like Mass Effect as much as I like Dragon Age. And there's more ways to divide it than sci-fi vs fantasy. There's the people who are going to buy a western RPG regardless of it being sci-fi or fantasy because it's a western RPG. There are the people who are going to buy it because it's a CDPR game and even if they have a preference for sci-fi or or fantasy they still want CDPR to succeed and will buy it just so that the studio stays afloat, or just because they like the type of games CDPR makes regardless of genre. Saying one's fantasy and one's sci-fi is an oversimplification of it, is my point.
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Post by N7Valentine on Sept 29, 2017 20:50:27 GMT
I don't really think so. Cyberpunk 2077 and DA may be both RPGs but both have different settings. The one is Sci-Fi, the other is Fantasy However I think that people are more likely to trust CDProjekt Red than BW because of many reasons. I see a lot of folks whining how SJW and PC BW has become while CD listens to fans and etc. on sites like GameFaqs and such. In the end, I can't really tell but I suppose that won't be the case
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Post by slimgrin727 on Sept 29, 2017 21:07:00 GMT
Stop with this nonsense. Do you really think CDPR and EA are going to release major AAA titles even remotely near the same time? It would hurt both of them.
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Post by Gwydden on Sept 29, 2017 21:34:13 GMT
Stop with this nonsense. Do you really think CDPR and EA are going to release major AAA titles even remotely near the same time? It would hurt both of them. You mean like TW1 and ME1 released a month away from each other, and TW2 and DA2 came out two months from each other, and TW3 and DA:I just about five months from each other? At any rate, the gaming tide is fickle. TW3 was a huge hit, by RPG standards, but as they say, once you've reached the top there's nowhere to go but down. Don't you already hear people whispering of the many supposed problems CP2077's development is having? It may prove difficult for CDPR to top their previous success, and the momentum from it is unlikely to still be as strong by 2019/2020. Popularity doesn't concern me overmuch, anyway. DA:I was terrible, if you ask me, but you wouldn't know it from the way it was received (though retrospectively it does not appear to be remembered with fondness). If I like it, that's enough for me. I'm less interested in how DA4 will be received and more in whether it'll be any good. Public opinion is only relevant insofar Bioware's future is concerned. If DA4 flops, I could see that putting an end to the series for the foreseeable future, much as ME:A did for its franchise. I think Anthem's success, or lack thereof, is more relevant in this context. EA and Bioware are banking a lot on it. While perhaps I'm being paranoid, I'm concerned that if it does too well DA will be put in the back burner, and that if it does too badly Bioware won't be able to recover. Ideally and rather selfishly, I sometimes hope that it will do just bad enough that DA will become Bioware's flagship franchise at long last, and DA4 will be awesome enough to make it stick. But that is a long shot.
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Post by slimgrin727 on Sept 29, 2017 21:51:09 GMT
Stop with this nonsense. Do you really think CDPR and EA are going to release major AAA titles even remotely near the same time? It would hurt both of them. You mean like TW1 and ME1 released a month away from each other, and TW2 and DA2 came out two months from each other, and TW3 and DA:I just about five months from each other? Yeah that is a weird coincidence. But I don't think these guys really knew each other before then. After TW3, I'm sure both sides are aware of the financial fallout involved in releasing during the same quarter. Plus, they're both distributors. At least some of these people work together on a fairly regular basis to get EA games up on GOG. I'm pretty sure they'd work out a staggered release for both titles.
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Post by Superhik on Sept 29, 2017 21:53:54 GMT
What I'm hoping for is that Cyberpunk "hurts" Bioware is by bringing back everything rpgs have been bleeding about for more than a decade...stats, skills, non combat char progression, different ways to solve quests, etc...you can barely tell the difference between that and Ubisoft game. They pull it off, this could be a shock kick in the balls for AAA rpgs.
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Post by majesticjazz on Sept 30, 2017 15:28:09 GMT
I am going to assume that DA4 is coming out in late 2019 along with Cyberpunk 2077. I just dont see either game slipping into 2020 and they definitely arent coming 2018. This would put DA4 and Cyberpunk 2077 on a collision course. The key difference here being that they are completely different genres in every way. There may not be the same type of crossover of player that DA has with Witcher, because both of those are fantasy sword 'n' sorcery games, while Cyberpunk is just that, cyberpunk. I can liken it to the difference between Mass Effect and Dragon Age audiences. Yes, there are a lot of players that play both, but there are also a lot of players that are only interested in fantasy, or only interested in sci-fi, that never bothered with the other main Bioware franchise. I count myself in that group. MEA was my first ME game. While I enjoyed it, I much prefer the fantasy genre. Sigh, you all seem to be stuck on this concept that cause they are not one for one identical games, then the media will not make comparisons. Horizon is nowhere like MEA, and yet the media made comparisons between how the side quest were done. Both DA4 and CP2077 will have side quest in an open world setting. You bet there can be comparisons made on which game had a better approach to side quest. Both DA4 (assuming they double down on the open world approach) and 2077 will have an open world/open zone setting. You bet there can be comparisons made on which game had a better approach to open world. Both DA4 and 2077 will have facial/body animations. You bet there can ne comparisons made between which game had the more impressive looking animations. Same can be said with physics. Both games will have a setting. You bet there can be comparisons made about which game had the more lively, interactive, and immersive setting. Assuming they both get a 2019 release and release near each other, it would be a gaming media's (IGN, Polygon, Gamespot etc) wet dream to make comparisons. Then you will have user media like Youtube make comparisons. All of which could drive the narrative about which is the better game. Not all gamers will buy both games as their money and time is limited. Thus they will have to decide where to best spend their money and if one has both 2077 and DA4 in their hands, they are not going to want to know which game does things the best and which game they heard the best/worst about.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Sept 30, 2017 15:53:58 GMT
Sigh, you all seem to be stuck on this concept that cause they are not one for one identical games, then the media will not make comparisons. I don't care about the media, and my post had nothing to do with them. My post was about fan/player preference for whichever genre. Witcher 3 was lauded as a great achievement, yet there are many people that are fans of fantasy RPGs, myself included, that have no desire to play a game where you play as a fixed protagonist of a straight white male*. I know several people whose purchase of 2077 is contingent on gender selection and character customization. Regardless of whatever other wonderful thing about the game, that is a priority for those players. Media reviews don't always take those things into consideration. * This isn't even necessarily about being male, but of creating the character I want to create, being my own character. My Inquisitor is male, so I have no issues playing as one, but I want it to be my character.
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Post by majesticjazz on Sept 30, 2017 16:03:14 GMT
Sigh, you all seem to be stuck on this concept that cause they are not one for one identical games, then the media will not make comparisons. I don't care about the media, and my post had nothing to do with them. My post was about fan/player preference for whichever genre. Witcher 3 was lauded as a great achievement, yet there are many people that are fans of fantasy RPGs, myself included, that have no desire to play a game where you play as a fixed protagonist of a straight white male*. I know several people whose purchase of 2077 is contingent on gender selection and character customization. Regardless of whatever other wonderful thing about the game, that is a priority for those players. Media reviews don't always take those things into consideration. * This isn't even necessarily about being male, but of creating the character I want to create, being my own character. My Inquisitor is male, so I have no issues playing as one, but I want it to be my character. You may not care about the media but a lot of people do. You may not be swayed by the gaming media, but a lot are. And for THOSE people, they CAN be swayed by the comparisons the gaming media makes.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Sept 30, 2017 16:16:00 GMT
You may not care about the media but a lot of people do. You may not be swayed by the gaming media, but a lot are. And for THOSE people, they CAN be swayed by the comparisons the gaming media makes. Again, my original post had nothing to do with the media.
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Post by majesticjazz on Sept 30, 2017 16:20:37 GMT
You may not care about the media but a lot of people do. You may not be swayed by the gaming media, but a lot are. And for THOSE people, they CAN be swayed by the comparisons the gaming media makes. Again, my original post had nothing to do with the media. But my OP does. It is about could the media's comparisons between the two games hurt DA4.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Sept 30, 2017 17:42:51 GMT
Again, my original post had nothing to do with the media. But my OP does. It is about could the media's comparisons between the two games hurt DA4. Only if the media loudly and consistently says, "DA4 sucks because CP77 rules." And that's because of the Anchoring Effect. See vid below. It seems a much more likely risk that DA4 will suffer because the media says "DA4 sucks", period. I'm saying "much more likely" in relative terms, for example, 0.01% (CP77 effect) versus 0.1% chance the media dumps on DA4 on it's own merits. That's 10x more risk, but in the absolute, hardly any risk at all. But even if that happens, the effect will be dwarfed by the much bigger problem that the media will hurt CP77, by comparing it to The Witcher 3 unfavorably. The TW3 is going to be a hard act for anyone to follow, most particularly CDPR. It seems inevitable that CP77 will get beaten up, perhaps to an exaggerated degree, because TW3 set expectations unachievably high. You thought the outrage over MEA was bad, just wait and see what happens after CP77 launches. It could be a completely decent game but get sub 70 Metacritic, just because it's not as good as TW3.
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