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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by theascendent on Sept 30, 2017 12:28:58 GMT
I've recently started playing Inquisition as a Male Mage Lavellan and I've been brushing up on the Elves in Dragon Age and one issue I see that is rarely discussed is Elven biology. What exactly makes an Elf any different from the other races of the world. So I started this thread where we can discuss and compare thoughts and ideas. I am no scientist and no expert in the complex study of anatomy, physiology or biology. I simply want to discuss and compare thoughts.
Difference between Elves pre and post Veil. After previous playthroughs of the previous Dragon Age games, I've had several thoughts on the nature of the Elves, specifically the difference between Elves who lived before the Veil and Elves born after.
1)Loss of magic and immortality. The most immediate and obvious impact of the Veil was the loss of the biological immortality of the Elves and a significant decrease in the number of mages in the race as a whole. As we've uncovered in the series the Elves lived in a world where the physical world and the spiritual world were one and the same. Who existed first spirits or Elves is essentially another 'chicken and egg' debate I have no idea how to start. Since the Elves were soaked in the magical energy of the Fade they were obviously a very magical people. As Solas stated "It was simply part of being Elven". When the Veil was erected the Elves lost their connection to the Fade and it's energy. I imagine it would be akin to if humans were deprived of oxygen in the air, though not as fatal.
2) Not too different. While the Elves were sundered from the Fade, it didn't destroy them. They simply had to adapt to a new world. Both the Sentinels at the Temple of Mythal and Solas don't consider the Elves of modern Thedas to be their idea of an "Elf", but biologically they aren't too dissimilar. A constant means of identification and source of power is blood. Certain Elven artifacts and objects will only interact and be friendly towards Elves. In the Crossroads of the Eluvian, Elves see it as colorful and beautiful. The Mask of Fen'Harel can only be activated with the blood of an Elf. The Lights of Arlathan can only be identified with Elven blood. The Archivist or Ghil-Dirthalen of Vir Dirthara or the Shattered Library identified an Elven Inquisitor as an Elf and responded accordingly in the Elven language.
One major example of the similarities between the Ancient and modern Elves is the Varterral. The Varterral is an Elven biological weapon that can detect Elves and unless attacked will leave them be. However many Varterrals have been hostile to Elves in multiple media. I propose this is simply the result of negligence. The Varterrral is a machine that has simply not been properly maintained for so long that it has malfunctioned and can only barely distinguish friend from foe, but the fact that certain Varterrral can distinguish an Elf from non Elves is indicative that Elves have not been too drastically altered from living in a world without the Fade. The fact that the Varterral can bring itself back to life given enough time shows the advanced biological engineering the Ancients were capable of. But that is as issue for another day.
Well those are some of my brief thoughts on the subject, hopefully we can learn more by examining this subject in detail. Dareth Shiral!
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Post by OhDaniGirl on Sept 30, 2017 13:30:08 GMT
Oh, interesting topic!
As far as the 'chicken and egg', I tend to believe that spirits came first. When an elf inquisitor asks the Archivist about the history of their people, she mentions "forms out of air". That could mean spirits acquiring physical bodies somehow.
The blood thing is interesting, since that is also how Old God Kieran identifies an elf inquisitor. I think spirits are also a big part of past vs. modern elves. I believe that both have spirits (or at least something very like them), but modern elves have lost the ability to...connect with them, I guess? I haven't really fully sorted my ideas about this.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 1, 2017 14:01:52 GMT
Don't forget the fact that if an elf mates with another race the physical elven identity is wholly subsumed by the other. I think this could be something to do with the fact that they were originally spirits that became corporeal. Mating with another race that is grounded in the Waking World dilutes the spiritual element that gives them their form. It is also why ancient elves don't readily identify with modern ones because generations outside of the Fade have taken them further from their spiritual roots even if it hasn't resulted in too much divergence physically.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by theascendent on Oct 1, 2017 14:13:13 GMT
Don't forget the fact that if an elf mates with another race the physical elven identity is wholly subsumed by the other. I think this could be something to do with the fact that they were originally spirits that became corporeal. Mating with another race that is grounded in the Waking World dilutes the spiritual element that gives them their form. It is also why ancient elves don't readily identify with modern ones because generations outside of the Fade have taken them further from their spiritual roots even if it hasn't resulted in too much divergence physically. Very true. It would certainly explain the differences physically between the Ancient and Modern Elves. Solas and the Sentinels seem taller with a more defined musculature than modern Elves. If you also examine certain artistic depictions of Elves that we see in certain areas of the Dales, the Elves seem less lithe and more stout. Of course this could be artistic license and bias trying to flatter the subject matter but it is interesting.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by theascendent on Oct 13, 2017 8:08:51 GMT
Something I've been wondering. When Solas goes on(and on) about 'true' Elven culture, is that a good thing? From what we've uncovered, the Ancient Elves were just as bad, if not worse than Orlais and Tevinter combined, the major difference being the abundance of magic the Elves possessed. We don't know how long the Evanuris ruled the Elves and what is the point of measuring time for an immortal?
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Oct 13, 2017 8:22:11 GMT
Something I've been wondering. When Solas goes on(and on) about 'true' Elven culture, is that a good thing? From what we've uncovered, the Ancient Elves were just as bad, if not worse than Orlais and Tevinter combined, the major difference being the abundance of magic the Elves possessed. We don't know how long the Evanuris ruled the Elves and what is the point of measuring time for an immortal? I don't think that's what he's talking about, considering that he was the one actively doing something about that aspect of Elven culture. I'd imagine that the only bits he wants to bring back are the abundance of magic and the useful and beautiful applications thereof.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by theascendent on Oct 13, 2017 8:27:58 GMT
Something I've been wondering. When Solas goes on(and on) about 'true' Elven culture, is that a good thing? From what we've uncovered, the Ancient Elves were just as bad, if not worse than Orlais and Tevinter combined, the major difference being the abundance of magic the Elves possessed. We don't know how long the Evanuris ruled the Elves and what is the point of measuring time for an immortal? I don't think that's what he's talking about, considering that he was the one actively doing something about that aspect of Elven culture. I'd imagine that the only bits he wants to bring back are the abundance of magic and the useful and beautiful applications thereof. Yes because altering reality worked so very well the last time he did it.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 13, 2017 8:36:09 GMT
That would seem to be true except those structures came about as a result of that social structure he despised. Clearly they resulted from large numbers of elves working together with a common purpose. Was this enforced (slavery) or willing (devotion to their god). Possibly to him there was no distinction between the two. However, his commitment to freedom of the individual would likely make such enterprises impossible.
Then again, he claims he only moved against the Evanuris when "they went too far" and killed Mythal. Up to then, whilst she was controlling things, he apparently had no problem with the system. He claims she was the only one who really cared for her people but she was still an overlord. In his way of thinking, he is entitled to take "god-like" decisions about the entire world, which actually reveals a similar mind-set. So, despite his claim not to believe in the concept of good and evil/right and wrong, or that he is a god, he actually does seem to support the idea of an overlord controlling a world of magical beings and wonders. He would be that overlord.
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Post by theascendent on Oct 13, 2017 8:46:45 GMT
That would seem to be true except those structures came about as a result of that social structure he despised. Clearly they resulted from large numbers of elves working together with a common purpose. Was this enforced (slavery) or willing (devotion to their god). Possibly to him there was no distinction between the two. However, his commitment to freedom of the individual would likely make such enterprises impossible. Then again, he claims he only moved against the Evanuris when "they went too far" and killed Mythal. Up to then, whilst she was controlling things, he apparently had no problem with the system. He claims she was the only one who really cared for her people but she was still an overlord. In his way of thinking, he is entitled to take "god-like" decisions about the entire world, which actually reveals a similar mind-set. So, despite his claim not to believe in the concept of good and evil/right and wrong, or that he is a god, he actually does seem to support the idea of an overlord controlling a world of magical beings and wonders. He would be that overlord. Indeed. His hypocrisy is astounding.
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Post by ellawyn on Oct 14, 2017 3:29:17 GMT
That would seem to be true except those structures came about as a result of that social structure he despised. Clearly they resulted from large numbers of elves working together with a common purpose. Was this enforced (slavery) or willing (devotion to their god). Possibly to him there was no distinction between the two. However, his commitment to freedom of the individual would likely make such enterprises impossible. Then again, he claims he only moved against the Evanuris when "they went too far" and killed Mythal. Up to then, whilst she was controlling things, he apparently had no problem with the system. Wait what. He clearly had a problem with the system prior to Mythal's murder. Nevermind the whole rebellion business, but we see him actively refuting the godhood of the other Evanuris and pushing back against their corruption - it's all in those flashes we get from the doors in Trespasser. Mythal's murder isn't the point where he went "Heeey, something's fishy here..." It's the point where he went "Okay, I've tried being nice, but you guys are clearly beyond redemption." And why is it, precisely, that whenever people bring up Solas' reasons for doing what he did, they always zero in on "Because they killed Mythal" and ignore "Because they were going to destroy the world." Like, honestly. I feel like that second one's a pretty damn good reason to do just about anything. And this is just something that confuses me in general. Are we supposed to hate Solas for putting up the Veil in the first place? Or are we supposed to hate him for not doing it soon enough? So, despite his claim not to believe in the concept of good and evil/right and wrong, or that he is a god, he actually does seem to support the idea of an overlord controlling a world of magical beings and wonders. He would be that overlord. Well, he's not named Pride for nothing.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Oct 14, 2017 7:20:14 GMT
I don't think that's what he's talking about, considering that he was the one actively doing something about that aspect of Elven culture. I'd imagine that the only bits he wants to bring back are the abundance of magic and the useful and beautiful applications thereof. Yes because altering reality worked so very well the last time he did it. It caused an untold amount of suffering, but it did accomplish his goal. And Solas is clearly okay with an untold amount of suffering in order to accomplish a goal he views as worth more, or he would already have given up and tried to make his way in the new world.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 14, 2017 10:17:55 GMT
We also see plenty of references to him as Mythal's side-kick. Thus for a considerable period of time it would seem he was supporting the status quo. So if it all happened before her murder, was his rebellion taking place behind her back or with her approval? The fact that her priesthood apparently knew his password would suggest the latter but that invites more questions. At what point did she start working against her fellow gods? If he was under a compulsion to serve her, what made her free him? Was it so he could begin a rebellion? Is he in fact not free but she is still jerking his string?
There is also that assertion of his that the gods are mortal (killable). Is he just talking out of his arse because he thinks they can be killed, or does he know for a fact they can be (because they've already killed Mythal but covered it up)? Or was he simply saying what he thought they needed to hear, considering he tells the Inquisitor he doubted the Evanuris could be permanently killed?
This is part of my problem with Solas. He gives 3 justifications for his action. However, the first one is given in the response to the questions "What made you move against them?", which could refer to his rebellion, not just raising the Veil. Then the reason he used the Veil:
Firstly, he wasn't sure he could permanently kill them, which would mean he suspected Mythal wasn't really dead. This might also explain why the Sentinels kept their vigil for so long. Abelas also questions if Mythal was gone for good and the presence of her living sanctuary seems to suggest to Solas that something of her is still alive. I do wonder whether cutting the gods off from their creations was the real reason everything collapsed because their presence was required to sustain them in addition to the magic of the Fade.
Secondly, because it was the only way to stop them destroying the world. Since he destroyed the world of the elves by his action, he clearly must be referring to the wider world. So at what point did he suspect they were capable of this? Presumably after the discovery was made in the Deep Roads that so frightened him: "What the Evanuris in their greed could unleash would end us all. Let this place be forgotten. Let no one wake its anger. The People must rise before their false gods destroy them all." This seems to be the point when he first called them to rebellion. Yet whatever could be found in the Deep Roads, Mythal was originally responsible for as she had conquered the titan and seemed to be in charge of the lyrium mining operation in the Deep Roads together with Fen'Harel. This was a very long time before this discovery (an aeon). So, once again it would appear that he had no problem with the status quo until either Mythal challenged it herself or she was killed.
This would seem to be supported by the Dalish stories that the Evanuris saw him as a friend. Clearly towards the end they did not and warned people against him but that was made even more necessary by the fact that he had previously seemed an ally.
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Post by Iddy on Oct 16, 2017 17:03:24 GMT
My only question is, do elves have small dicks as Leliana implied in her banter with Zevran?
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Post by The Biotic Trebuchet on Oct 16, 2017 18:14:43 GMT
How do their sweat taste like?
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Post by nvanfleet on Oct 16, 2017 19:09:06 GMT
We also see plenty of references to him as Mythal's side-kick. Thus for a considerable period of time it would seem he was supporting the status quo. So if it all happened before her murder, was his rebellion taking place behind her back or with her approval? The fact that her priesthood apparently knew his password would suggest the latter but that invites more questions. At what point did she start working against her fellow gods? If he was under a compulsion to serve her, what made her free him? Was it so he could begin a rebellion? Is he in fact not free but she is still jerking his string?
There is also that assertion of his that the gods are mortal (killable). Is he just talking out of his arse because he thinks they can be killed, or does he know for a fact they can be (because they've already killed Mythal but covered it up)? Or was he simply saying what he thought they needed to hear, considering he tells the Inquisitor he doubted the Evanuris could be permanently killed?
This is part of my problem with Solas. He gives 3 justifications for his action. However, the first one is given in the response to the questions "What made you move against them?", which could refer to his rebellion, not just raising the Veil. Then the reason he used the Veil:
Firstly, he wasn't sure he could permanently kill them, which would mean he suspected Mythal wasn't really dead. This might also explain why the Sentinels kept their vigil for so long. Abelas also questions if Mythal was gone for good and the presence of her living sanctuary seems to suggest to Solas that something of her is still alive. I do wonder whether cutting the gods off from their creations was the real reason everything collapsed because their presence was required to sustain them in addition to the magic of the Fade.
Secondly, because it was the only way to stop them destroying the world. Since he destroyed the world of the elves by his action, he clearly must be referring to the wider world. So at what point did he suspect they were capable of this? Presumably after the discovery was made in the Deep Roads that so frightened him: "What the Evanuris in their greed could unleash would end us all. Let this place be forgotten. Let no one wake its anger. The People must rise before their false gods destroy them all." This seems to be the point when he first called them to rebellion. Yet whatever could be found in the Deep Roads, Mythal was originally responsible for as she had conquered the titan and seemed to be in charge of the lyrium mining operation in the Deep Roads together with Fen'Harel. This was a very long time before this discovery (an aeon). So, once again it would appear that he had no problem with the status quo until either Mythal challenged it herself or she was killed.
This would seem to be supported by the Dalish stories that the Evanuris saw him as a friend. Clearly towards the end they did not and warned people against him but that was made even more necessary by the fact that he had previously seemed an ally. I think Solas is mostly meant to be based off of Loki - he says things out of all four sides of his mouth, is prone to manipulation and dissemination, campaigns of disinformation and outright backstabbery purely for selfish reasons. He'll do anything as long as it suits his whims at the moment, and my take is that he's decided that he doesn't like his big stupid change after all and is going to do something about it. This time he needed to get rid of Mythal for some reason, she who he claimed to love above all else. Who he CLAIMED was his reason for action in the first place. He's full of it and himself and I sincerely hope we get to take baldy down a peg or four.
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Post by theascendent on Nov 1, 2017 18:54:15 GMT
Does anyone know what happened to the Night Elves? They were a unit of Elves that Loghain commanded during the Ferelden/Orlais war. They feature heavily in the Stolen Throne, but they're never mentioned ever again. Thoughts?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Nov 1, 2017 19:03:26 GMT
Does anyone know what happened to the Night Elves? They were a unit of Elves that Loghain commanded during the Ferelden/Orlais war. They feature heavily in the Stolen Throne, but they're never mentioned ever again. Thoughts? Nobody knows. After the rebellion, the Night Elves disappeared into history and their current status is unknown.
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Post by theascendent on Nov 1, 2017 19:32:55 GMT
Does anyone know what happened to the Night Elves? They were a unit of Elves that Loghain commanded during the Ferelden/Orlais war. They feature heavily in the Stolen Throne, but they're never mentioned ever again. Thoughts? Nobody knows. After the rebellion, the Night Elves disappeared into history and their current status is unknown. I always imagined that they reformed and went to Tevinter to rescue the Elves that their old CO sold into slavery. Just a little bit of fan canon, I know it's unlikely but it would've been interesting. Alternatively they may be agents of Fen'Harel. We'll likely never see or hear of them ever but it is interesting to speculate.
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Post by Heimdall on Nov 1, 2017 19:46:32 GMT
Does anyone know what happened to the Night Elves? They were a unit of Elves that Loghain commanded during the Ferelden/Orlais war. They feature heavily in the Stolen Throne, but they're never mentioned ever again. Thoughts? Rebellion over, I suspect they disbanded.
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 2, 2017 19:30:28 GMT
The Night Elves were never actually mentioned outside of the novel, so they were merely a plot device. However, I tend to take the view that if they were canon they would have been really pissed off with Maric for not making lives better for the alienage elves once he had taken the throne and doubly pissed off with Loghain when he sold the elves into slavery, so either they attacked their betrayers at some point and were slain or they disappeared off into the wilds and became bandits.
Once I knew about the Night Elves I always imagine that my City Elf Warden was descended from them through their mother and that is why their mother had the knife "Fen'Harel's tooth". Since my City Elf Warden is my canon one, I like to think that ultimately King Alistair does honour his family's debt to the elves and the reforms put in place immediately following the Blight (which in some epilogues seem to fail) are ultimately made to stick.
It is rather depressing to know that according to the lore the city elves in Ferelden are meant to be better treated than the rest of Thedas and consider themselves well off compared with elsewhere. That is not really saying much other than how bad the rest of Thedas is towards the elves.
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Post by nvanfleet on Nov 2, 2017 20:00:13 GMT
I was *really* disappointed with the lack of a city elf option for backgrounds in DAI, honestly. Their whole perspective was meant to be filtered through Sera, I guess, but as much as I love her *she's not right in the head.* Just another missed opportunity, I suppose. The City Elf origin in DAO was every bit as dramatic as Noble Human was, I loved it.
And if Ferelden is supposed to be some bastion of shining example for how well City Elves are treated.... ? Ugh, I'm with you that IS depressing.
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Post by mikoto on Nov 2, 2017 22:30:11 GMT
I've always been disappointed by the lack of Dalish or City Elf companions in the DA games. I mean think about it. Zevran was an Antivan Crow. Fenris was a escaped Tevinter slave with lyrium brands. Neither are truly southern Thedan Dalish or City Elves. Okay we had Velanna and Ariane but they were in DLCs which were painfully short.
And in DAI we have Solas who is, again, distinctly not Dalish or City Elf. And Sera can't really be called an elf at all. For all intents and purposes she's a clinically insane commoner criminal.
I feel the Dalish or City Elf perspective was badly missing in DAI. We missed out on two very important perspectives to the whole thing. (Unless of course we chose to be the Dalish Inquisitor ourselves.)
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 3, 2017 9:11:35 GMT
Sera definitely cannot be said to represent City Elves since she is in denial about actually being an elf. It is not just Dalish culture she rejects but elven culture as a whole: "stupid tree". What was a pity is that the only insight we get to her attitude towards these things really is the conversation about the human noble lady who adopted her and you only get that if she approves of you. Still there she was angry with the lady for lying to her about the Baker disliking elves and admits she made his life hell because she thought he was against her because she was an elf. Yet she really is no better towards an elf who wants to identify as an elf.
If a Dalish Inquisitor stands up to her about their culture, she just blows them off and we get no insight at all why she turned her back on her city elf community. Even WoT2, which has a whole lot more about her background, does not reveal why she has such antagonism towards them. It seems to be a case of choose which ever scenario you like to imagine. The solidarity she claims to show towards "people people" is exactly the same solidarity that elves show towards one another in the face of human oppression. Okay, so that shows some prejudice towards other races by the city elves but in Origins we were told that those elves who tried to make something of themselves outside the alienage inevitably got kicked back down again into the gutter. It didn't seem to matter whether they wanted to be seen as elves or not, the odds were stacked against them if they wanted to remain law abiding citizens who played by the rules.
So the only reason Sera has enjoyed the "success" she has is that she has embraced the criminal side of the underclass, just as many other elves had done before her and also as many humans and dwarves have done as well. Yet claims to be the champion of the common people.
I think that could explain why the Inquisitor could not be a city elf because they would naturally want to call her out on her bullshit and would be able to challenge her on every level.
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theascendent
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Post by theascendent on Nov 4, 2017 8:14:46 GMT
What I would have liked to know is how did Ameridan, a Dalish Mage, become friends with Kordillus Drakon, a zealot who conquered Orlais. Sadly Ameridan only gave us some of his last thoughts and memories before passing on. Was he trying to ingratiate himself with the rising empire to curry favour, encouraging him to leave the Elves alone? Surely he knew what kind of man he was.
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TheHeroOfFerelden
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Post by TheHeroOfFerelden on Nov 4, 2017 9:52:17 GMT
Difference between Elves pre and post Veil. The biggest difference that bothers me is the pre and post DA2 one. Wear some shoes ,elven people!You're no hobbits... Loss of magic and immortality. The most immediate and obvious impact of the Veil was the loss of the biological immortality of the Elves and a significant decrease in the number of mages in the race as a whole. I was more pleased with the previous,seemingly more scientific, "contact with the shemlen" as the cause for their loss of immortality explanation(Reminds me of H.G.Wells' "War of the World". Makes you think if they had it planned all along(highly improbable),or it was a last minute change...
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