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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 4, 2017 10:28:53 GMT
This was a subject that the writers of JoH really didn't seem to give enough thought to. There were so many contradictory things in that friendship:
1. Drakon had already proven himself a ruthless tyrant over the human tribes.
2. Ameridan was aware that Drakon wanted to "make things simple" over religion, so not willing to accept alternatives to his state Chantry.
3. Ameridan was apparently worshipping both Andraste and Ghilan'nain as mortals raised to godhood by their respective overlord deity. This seemed not in keeping with either the religion Drakon espoused or that of the Keepers in the Dales. Did Drakon not know? If Ameridan hid his beliefs from him, then he knew that Drakon would disapprove.
4. Drakon asked Ameridan to lead the Inquisition so people would have less worries over its alliance with the Chantry. So apparently people did have misgivings but why would Ameridan leading the Inquisition allay them?
5. Ameridan talks of reminding the Dales leadership of their alliance with Drakon (not simply their human neighbours) which seems an odd thing for them to have agreed to when he admits they think Drakon is "no better than Tevinter". Considering Drakon's Imperialist ambitions, which were quite evident to onlookers and the fact that he was the grandson of a Tevinter Altus, it is hardly surprising the leadership of the Dales wanted nothing to do with him. So Ameridan seems to be supporting the Chantry/Orlesian view that the elves had been disloyal to their alliance with Andraste when Drakon had already attacked and destroyed many of the elves' former allies among the southern tribes who honoured both her and the Maker. Their alliance had been with them, not Drakon.
6. Ameridan quite rightly asks why Drakon never came looking for him and they have Cassandra giving the excuse that he was totally taken up with combating the Blight. Not true. The 2nd Blight had started in 1:5. Drakon had felt able to ignore the Blight whilst he founded the Templar Order and Circle of Magi in 1:20. Around the same time he also asked Ameridan to conduct the investigation in the Frostbacks as they didn't want to be fighting on two fronts. When he didn't return, so far as Drakon was aware, that threat remained, so he would have been remiss not to send a force to find out what happened. Besides, where was the back up team for Ameridan like we had for our Inquisitor? Such an important mission and it is entrusted to just 4 people with no lines of communication back to the north? It just isn't plausible and yet that is how it is written. Drakon didn't leave for the Anderfels until 1:33. So where was he when the darkspawn overran Montsimmard in 1:25? Presumably off conquering other regions under the guise of combating the Blight. (He was originally heading north to take advantage of Tevinter's weakness after a major assault by the darkspawn in 1:31 which is why he was in a position to assist Weisshaupt when they called for help).
So the dialogue raised all sorts of questions in my mind which they failed to answer. It came across just as another critique of the Dalish for their attitude towards Orlais at that time since it is their viewpoint that is constantly criticised by all characters involved (Cassandra, Sera, Solas, Ameridan) whereas no one is allowed to defend their attitude or press home the contradictions in Ameridan's views and behaviour. Then the fact of them not assisting against the darkspawn at Montsimmard is raised once again, with it seemingly being implied that there was no other explanation other than they refused to help. The odd thing is that in the Core Rule Book it is implied that the lack of a Dalish viewpoint about these events does throw suspicion on the human/Chantry version of events (the shades of grey approach) but the writing team on the games seems to be content to go with the clear cut "Dalish were to blame" viewpoint, which is supported by their only representative on the matter, Ameridan.
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 4, 2017 10:45:02 GMT
This is odd considering that even if the Dalish insist on no shoes for whatever reason, why do all elves follow suit, even those raised in other cultures? The general assumption is that the elves feel it gives them some sort of spiritual connection with the land. Still I had the following exchange between a couple of the elven characters in my fan fiction:
Keeper Paven. “Oh no, Ellas, you need to go barefoot to stay connected.”
Ellas: “But its bloody freezing and my toes are cold.”
Keeper Paven: “You’ll get used to it.”
Ellas: “But why when we can just wear nice furry boots?"
Keeper Paven: "It's traditional."
I used to find it amusing that they had both Fenris and Merrill constantly examining their feet if we stayed for any length of time in one place, particularly when we were in the city. I'm not surprised. I should imagine they picked up all sorts of foul stuff on the feet in the streets of Kirkwall.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
PSN: The Ascendent
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Post by theascendent on Nov 4, 2017 11:34:23 GMT
Yeah. Maybe Elven soles are tougher than human ones?
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Post by mikoto on Nov 4, 2017 18:35:59 GMT
I always thought the lack of shoes thing was weird though I can attest from experience that the soles of the feet do toughen up to an almost amazing extent when you go around barefoot outside most of the time. I did it a lot when I was a teenager and the soles of my feet turned into a hard almost leathery texture.
Funnily enough even though I wear shoes, I work on a hospital ward that requires me to be on my feet for over six hours a day. My feet hurt a lot at first when I started a couple months ago but now they don't. And I have that hard leathery texture to the soles of my feet again.
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 4, 2017 21:23:36 GMT
I go barefoot a lot of the time and the soles of my feet are tougher than most. It is the cold and damp aspect that you can't overcome. IRL cultures that go barefoot are in warmer climates. It just isn't possible to go barefoot where there are freezing conditions. Southern Thedas can get really cold in the winter so the elves would have to have a different metabolism to humans in order to cope with it.
The other problem is sharp objects. No matter how tough the soles of the feet sharp thorns, stones and the like will penetrate. Again, if these are likely to be a regular occurrence it is more practical to wear coverings on the feet that can resist them.
It would have been helpful if a codex could have explained why we had the change from DAO to DA2 and why it was peculiar to all elves. To be honest I think it was just a choice of the design team. DG is said not to have liked it but by then it was too late to do anything about it. So there is no logical explanation for it.
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Post by nvanfleet on Nov 4, 2017 22:28:28 GMT
"You're not like most of the elves I've met."
"Thanks, right? Or was that meant to be an insult? I suppose I could go barefoot and whine more."
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by theascendent on Nov 4, 2017 23:01:56 GMT
What was the climate like when the Waking World and the Fade were the same? Considering the power of the Evanuris, I imagine that they could change the seasons on a whim, or make it perpetually one season or time of year depending on the Evanuris ruling the locale or their mood.
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 5, 2017 9:34:24 GMT
You will recall that the Arbor Wilds and the Frostback Basin seem to have very lush vegetation even though both are situated in what would be equivalent to our arctic circle and both may have been influenced by elven activity in the past. Certainly the Arbor Wilds could have been impacted by the magic of the Evanuris.
Mind you, I think occasionally the design team have forgotten that Thedas is the reverse of our own world. In the entry for the Tevinter Imperium in WoT1 there is an associated picture that looks far more suited to a cool temperate forest/fiord landscape found in northern Europe than an area that should equate to the sub-tropical regions of our world, which is where Tevinter is theoretically located. Then they have the Arbor Wilds with what looks like sub-tropical/Mediterranean vegetation. PW also forgot the reverse layout when writing Masked Empire as he described birds as flying south for the winter, whereas in Thedas they would be flying north.
The other thing to consider is that the ancient elves constructed themselves a whole alternate reality bridging the two created ones, namely the Crossroads and associated areas, like the Ancient Library. In the memories we find where the nobility at least seem to be living in a magically created city of glass spires with walkways and shoals of water apparently hanging in mid-air. I would imagine the climate, if any existed, would be a constant benign one best suited to the elves. The inner sanctum of the Temple of Mythal also seemed to have its own micro-environment contained within it.
So the only elves who experienced the real world climate were likely Andruil's followers when out hunting and Fen'Harel's followers after he started his rebellion. Everyone else was contained in their own Evanuris created bubble.
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Post by pavellaning on Jan 4, 2018 16:48:03 GMT
My only question is, do elves have small dicks as Leliana implied in her banter with Zevran? This is the real question. I can't imagine a slender Lavellan being hung like the Iron Bull.
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lilyonce
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The whole universe is...
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Post by lilyonce on Jan 4, 2018 17:33:51 GMT
Interesting points made in this thread. I do believe that elves were spirits that acquired physical bodies- similar to Cole. Their culture turns on this IMO right down to the fall of the elven empire. I don't expect magical/spirit beings to do things the non-magical way- but for modern elves there is an important choice to be made about how to do civilization.
I don't think you can have the all magic and wonders of the elven empire without also inheriting all of its problems. The empire was extremely complex and overly reliant on magic- which made it fragile and vulnerable to corruption and then attack by outsiders. Its strength was also its downfall. I don't think Solas understands that- he's too focused on the achievements of the culture to really get it.
And also the magnitude of their magic in the physical world- I think it disrupted a natural order. The titans seem to stir whenever there is too much magic in the world. The titans threatened to destroy the elven empire, one woke up right before Arlathan was sunk into the ground- and earthquakes can cause this- and one wakes up in Inquisition because it senses the breach. I think they're playing with fire.
And the Veil didn't always exist for the elves but maybe for other races- like humans who seem more grounded in the body and physical world- it virtually always has. That makes things even more interesting.
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Post by Walter Black on Jan 4, 2018 17:49:53 GMT
Does anyone know what happened to the Night Elves? They were a unit of Elves that Loghain commanded during the Ferelden/Orlais war. They feature heavily in the Stolen Throne, but they're never mentioned ever again. Thoughts? They were probably retconned when someone mentioned them to Blizzard's legal team .
The whole "barefoot Elves" fad in Dragon Age 2 strikes me as a bizarre Hobbit shout out. It didn't really fit DA surface Dwarves, so the creative team gave that particular quirk to the Dalish.
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Post by arvaarad on Jan 5, 2018 1:24:47 GMT
My only question is, do elves have small dicks as Leliana implied in her banter with Zevran? This is the real question. I can't imagine a slender Lavellan being hung like the Iron Bull. No, the real question is “do they have body hair?” Because, surprisingly, this is something we have a canonical answer to. And this isn’t buried in a codex, in supplemental materials or from a word-of-god tweet. This is a genuine, in-the-main-games, confirmed by two different characters fact. Like humans, dwarves, and qunari, elves who romance Sera can choose to shave something rude into their pubes
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Post by vertigomez on Jan 5, 2018 2:48:27 GMT
This is the real question. I can't imagine a slender Lavellan being hung like the Iron Bull. No, the real question is “do they have body hair?” Because, surprisingly, this is something we have a canonical answer to. And this isn’t buried in a codex, in supplemental materials or from a word-of-god tweet. This is a genuine, in-the-main-games, confirmed by two different characters fact. Like humans, dwarves, and qunari, elves who romance Sera can choose to shave something rude into their pubes No beards though, which makes me wonder whether they have pit/leg/arm hair. Qunari too for that matter. Every qunari we see is like a waxed statue from the neck down. I like to think the dwarves stole all the body hair. The dwarves, and Garrett Hawke.
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Post by arvaarad on Jan 5, 2018 4:20:19 GMT
No, the real question is “do they have body hair?” Because, surprisingly, this is something we have a canonical answer to. And this isn’t buried in a codex, in supplemental materials or from a word-of-god tweet. This is a genuine, in-the-main-games, confirmed by two different characters fact. Like humans, dwarves, and qunari, elves who romance Sera can choose to shave something rude into their pubes No beards though, which makes me wonder whether they have pit/leg/arm hair. It does kind of raise questions, if we assume the spirits-became-elves theory. What was their thought process? Change the height, change the ears, change the skin from wrinkled to perfectly smooth. But by Elgar’nan’s eyelash, we must have a precise replica of durgen’len pubic hair, or our bodies won’t look normal!
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Post by OhDaniGirl on Jan 5, 2018 5:34:02 GMT
Doesn't Solas suggest that elves do have beards?
Blackwall: I just realized, I've never seen an elf with a beard. Solas: You haven't seen many elves then.
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Post by vertigomez on Jan 5, 2018 5:53:12 GMT
Doesn't Solas suggest that elves do have beards? Blackwall: I just realized, I've never seen an elf with a beard. Solas: You haven't seen many elves then. Yeah, but Fenris says they don't. Varric: So where's your beard, elf? Fenris: Elves don't grow beards. IIRC a dev came to ye olde forums and clarified that Solas's comment was a mistake. Weekes wrote it in, then checked his facts, but it was already in the game.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 5, 2018 9:12:38 GMT
Solas doesn't always tell the truth anyway. He just likes pointing out how much he knows about elves compared with everyone else, so he preferred to sacrifice anatomical accuracy for a jibe that the victim couldn't know one way or the other. (Plus Weakes does make mistakes over the lore and it's nice to know he finally admitted to one).
An interesting thought but may be the original elves were more hairless because they had nothing to go on for comparison (assuming they were spirits crossed over to the material world). Many of the pictures of ancient elves (assuming they are genuine) seem to show them bald (despite Weakes saying that Solas uses magic to stop hair growth so it wasn't a universal look). Maybe it was the amount of magic present that stopped their development at just bodies or hair was something that only lowly slaves had or alternatively was confined to the gods. Then after the Veil was raised they started to develop hair because of their greater connection with the material world but it still wasn't as extensive as creatures whose origins lay in the material world.
At the opposite end of the spectrum you have dwarves whose origins would seem to lie with the Titans and so absolutely of the material world. So they have a greater profusion of "earthly" features like hair. Humans and then later Kossith lie somewhere in between. That is one explanation anyway.
Honestly, I think the elves lacking body hair is just a hang over from D&D elves where this was the case. As for the pubic hair thing with Sera, I wouldn't read too much into it considering it is clear that originally the Inquisitor was just going to be human and not all dialogue was changed to reflect the later addition of races. It was more a case of just adding a few extra bits in.
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Post by vertigomez on Jan 5, 2018 23:14:16 GMT
Honestly, I think the elves lacking body hair is just a hang over from D&D elves where this was the case. As for the pubic hair thing with Sera, I wouldn't read too much into it considering it is clear that originally the Inquisitor was just going to be human and not all dialogue was changed to reflect the later addition of races. It was more a case of just adding a few extra bits in. I think this is the most accurate answer. Personally I like it, as a way to set the different races apart... in the same way I like that female dwarves can now have stubble. It furthers the idea that there's more than one type of beauty and what's percieved as masculine/feminine to one race doesn't necessarily apply to other races. 10/10 do approve of dolphin elves and hairy dorfs
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House Targaryen
N5
The night is dark and full of terrors, but the fire burns them all away.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: gscott7833
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Post by House Targaryen on Jan 6, 2018 5:44:15 GMT
My only question is, do elves have small dicks as Leliana implied in her banter with Zevran? This is the real question. I can't imagine a slender Lavellan being hung like the Iron Bull. Which is why I usually have my female elven Inquisitors take a ride on Bull before they move on to another romance.
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Post by pavellaning on Jan 6, 2018 6:10:35 GMT
This is the real question. I can't imagine a slender Lavellan being hung like the Iron Bull. Which is why I usually have my female elven Inquisitors take a ride on Bull before they move on to another romance. Wouldn't a Lavellan err, break trying to fit the bull in. I think about it for male and female Lavellans. At least dwarves are broad and tough but elves. Ouch, *crosses legs*
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Post by vertigomez on Jan 6, 2018 6:16:20 GMT
Which is why I usually have my female elven Inquisitors take a ride on Bull before they move on to another romance. Wouldn't a Lavellan err, break trying to fit the bull in. I think about it for male and female Lavellans. At least dwarves are broad and tough but elves. Ouch, *crosses legs* If it fits, I ships. :sure:
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N5
The night is dark and full of terrors, but the fire burns them all away.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by House Targaryen on Jan 6, 2018 6:24:36 GMT
Which is why I usually have my female elven Inquisitors take a ride on Bull before they move on to another romance. Wouldn't a Lavellan err, break trying to fit the bull in. I think about it for male and female Lavellans. At least dwarves are broad and tough but elves. Ouch, *crosses legs* Lubrication and easing in slow until she adapts is key.
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Post by pavellaning on Jan 6, 2018 6:49:54 GMT
Wouldn't a Lavellan err, break trying to fit the bull in. I think about it for male and female Lavellans. At least dwarves are broad and tough but elves. Ouch, *crosses legs* Lubrication and easing in slow until she adapts is key. Poor Lavellans. I am saving the bull-riding for the dwarves.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Jan 6, 2018 8:29:24 GMT
Doesn't Solas suggest that elves do have beards? Blackwall: I just realized, I've never seen an elf with a beard. Solas: You haven't seen many elves then. Doesn't Solas suggest that elves do have beards? Blackwall: I just realized, I've never seen an elf with a beard. Solas: You haven't seen many elves then. Yeah, but Fenris says they don't. Varric: So where's your beard, elf? Fenris: Elves don't grow beards. IIRC a dev came to ye olde forums and clarified that Solas's comment was a mistake. Weekes wrote it in, then checked his facts, but it was already in the game. No, that whole thing is a mistake and should not be in the game files. It is the main example I use when people go crying about things found in the game files. They leave all sorts of shit in there, but that doesn't mean that they were ever meant to be used. Sheryl Chee is the one who wrote that banter with Blackwall:
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
PSN: The Ascendent
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Post by theascendent on Jan 6, 2018 8:45:56 GMT
The hair issue is certainly an interesting note. Almost all depictions of the Ancient Elves lacked hair, maybe it was biology, a sign of their spiritual ancestry and as time went on and the Elves adapted to living in a world without the Fade growing hair became a necessary adaptation to be more successful in the world.
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