Joyous
N1
Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire
Posts: 22 Likes: 27
inherit
1452
0
27
Joyous
22
September 2016
butth
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire
|
Post by Joyous on Oct 10, 2017 18:00:26 GMT
So there's a lot of information about pre and post Chantry cults to Andraste, but do we ever actually hear of non-Andrastian Maker worship before the life and death of Andraste? Or was the idea of the Maker created by Andraste herself or during her time? Was the Maker just Andraste simplifying her people's religion for the masses and therefore just a co-opted Korth the Mountain-Father?
I ask because the Chantry itself wasn't formed until long after the First Blight and the death of Andraste, yet the myth of the Golden City seems to have existed hundreds of years prior. And the people of that era worshiped either the Old Gods or the Avaar spirit gods. So if the idea of the Maker didn't exist at this point in time, then who did the Magisters think ruled from the Golden City?
|
|
inherit
ღ I am a golem. Obviously.
440
0
24,190
phoray
Dreadnaw Rising
12,573
August 2016
phoray
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition
|
Post by phoray on Oct 11, 2017 4:16:36 GMT
Pretty sure the Chant of Light states the Maker actually made everything. And folks worshiped Him until spirits started whispering in their ears a bunch of promises. Helped win some wars, these spirits, and so it was the humans turned their back on him. And he got pissed and turned His back on them too.
Andraste asked him to turn round again. But then Human dun fukked that up too with killing her.
|
|
inherit
813
0
Jun 26, 2019 23:40:38 GMT
5,054
thats1evildude
2,478
August 2016
thats1evildude
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition
|
Post by thats1evildude on Oct 11, 2017 4:35:18 GMT
Yes, Andraste returned Thedas to the worship of the Maker, who had been forgotten in favour of the Old Gods.
From a young age, Andraste was troubled by dreams of the Maker, the supreme deity. It’s said the Maker offered to take her away from the mortal world to become his divine bride. She asked him instead to aid her in creating a paradise on Thedas.
‘Course, as phoray said, dem Tevinter boys and Mathy-wrath dun fukked it up.
In any case, the Old God worshippers believed the Fade was the home of the Old Gods and the Golden City was the centre of their power.
You will encounter texts insisting the magisters were after the Maker’s power, but that is just Chantry bias. That’s not to say the Maker didn’t cast the magisters down, however.
|
|
inherit
∯ Oh Loredy...
455
0
26,699
gervaise21
10,821
August 2016
gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
|
Post by gervaise21 on Oct 12, 2017 13:22:19 GMT
Actually, outside of some posts by DG on the old boards and the Chant of Light, there has been scant evidence given in game of any Maker worship among the various cultures of Thedas prior to Andraste.
We have now been given a fair bit of evidence for other worship among humans prior to the Old Gods. The Avvar, who were an offshoot of the Alamarri and thus represent one of the oldest human traditions, have a pantheon of gods but no specific creator deity. In fact they have no deity to represent the sun, which is odd considering most ancient cultures in our own world do have a sun god because of its association with light and life. Nor do the Alamarri have a legend similar to that of the elves of someone rebelling against or throwing down the sun god. Of course it wouldn't make much sense if they did seeing as the sun is still ever present in the sky. Prior to the rise of the Chantry the tribes of the south saw nothing wrong with continuing to worship their animist gods alongside the Maker, as though he was just one among many. This would fit with the Avvar concept of the gods merely being spirits of the Fade that assist individual clans that come under their protection. This might explain why there is not a spirit god associated with the sun because it continues to work independent of anything the spirit gods do.
Still, the only evidence of sun worship (and by implication the Maker as he is always associated with the sun) are the pyramids of Par Vollen. These are specifically aligned to the constellation Solium. However, we know that the sun is also associated with Elgar'nan, so that doesn't really prove anything other than the people there worshipped the sun, not a specific named deity associated with it.
The Rivaini also have an ancient cultural pantheistic religion that sees their god and the universe as being the same. Once again, this god is not viewed in the same way as the deity of the Chantry and we have not yet been told what they call this god.
So really no evidence has yet been produced, outside of the Chant of Light, that people ever worshipped a being called the Maker, or that worship of the Old Gods specifically turned people away from worshipping him because they insisted upon it for their support. Nor can we be certain that the history of the world that mentions the Maker was not made up by the being that spoke to Andraste or even those later contributors to the Chant who claim to have heard him as well: Hessarian and Drakon. Both had political reasons for wanting to denigrate the religion of the people surrounding them that differed from their own. Hessarian was trying to hold the Imperium together in the face of revolt, so used a new god to differentiate himself from his opponents in the Senate, encouraging people to reject the Old Gods and the Magisters who opposed him who still worshipped them. Drakon wanted to unify the tribes under him into an Empire with a simplified religion that he controlled. Both used the Maker to this end.
As for who people thought ruled the Golden City prior to Andraste. So far as can be told, the ancient Tevinter believed that the Golden City was the home of their gods. Thus they did not go there to usurp the place of the Maker but either by invitation of their gods to be rewarded with immortality (still largely influenced by what is said in the Canticle of Silence) or because the gods had already fallen silent and they wanted to know why (this largely based off the memories of Corypheus' servant in the Fade and writings of the priesthood of Razikale in the Frostback Basin). The elves also believed the Eternal City at the heart of the Fade was the home of their gods (not clear if they saw it as golden or not). The Dalish even believe this was where their gods were locked away by Fen'Harel. Based off what we know of Avvar belief, it would seem they likely thought the same too; that it is Belenas, the home of their gods. Their legends even seem to remember the moment when the Golden City was cut off from the Waking World by the Veil, recalled in their legends as the moment the Lady of the Skies lifted it away to be cut off in her realm, so the gods could live in peace untroubled by mortals. So again, it would seem that no one, prior to Andraste, believed the city to be the home of a single god, the Maker.
|
|
formerfiend
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Mass Effect Andromeda
PSN: Former_Fiend
Posts: 547 Likes: 955
inherit
6916
0
955
formerfiend
547
April 2017
formerfiend
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Mass Effect Andromeda
Former_Fiend
|
Post by formerfiend on Oct 12, 2017 13:36:11 GMT
The way Corypheus talks about Maker worship makes it sound like a very unfamiliar concept to him, and refers to the Black/Golden city as the throne of the gods, plural. Which if nothing else would contradict the Chant's notion that the magisters were specifically trying to usurp the Maker's throne. Though one could also take that as a holy book that's written as song & verse not making a distinction between what the old gods were tricking the magisters into doing and what the magisters thought they were doing. And if other parts of the chant say that the old gods had so thoroughly corrupted men as to have forgotten the Maker all together - the Maker's passive-aggressive, walk away when his creations don't do what he wants them to attitude not helping that situation - then that's far from hard evidence, even before we account for how unreliable Corypheus' memory is.
Would be funny if Andraste did pull the whole, Maker thing directly out from between her dimpled butt cheeks.
|
|
inherit
∯ Oh Loredy...
455
0
26,699
gervaise21
10,821
August 2016
gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
|
Post by gervaise21 on Oct 12, 2017 13:49:42 GMT
The problem is the writers have said they will never definitively say whether there is a Maker or not, so they will probably forever leave it ambiguous so far as his existence is concerned. However, I think we are pretty close to having it proven that the Golden City was not his home but had a different origin entirely, probably much more to do with Solas and the ancient elves than the ultimate creator deity.
|
|
theascendent
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
PSN: The Ascendent
Posts: 482 Likes: 629
inherit
9275
0
May 10, 2024 21:42:29 GMT
629
theascendent
482
Aug 28, 2017 10:17:49 GMT
August 2017
theascendent
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
The Ascendent
|
Post by theascendent on Oct 12, 2017 18:14:48 GMT
If Inquisition has taught me anything is to always question accepted truths. The Veil? Ancient Elven Rebel Mage did it. Lyrium? Blood of Titanic beings who literally shape the world. Rite of Tranquility? There was always a cure. Obviously the nature of the Maker is almost inseparable from the nature of faith, it cannot be proven or disproven no matter what we learn or understand about the world.
|
|
inherit
∯ Oh Loredy...
455
0
26,699
gervaise21
10,821
August 2016
gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
|
Post by gervaise21 on Oct 12, 2017 20:52:43 GMT
I would disagree. As someone who is religious in real life, I am an atheist in game. I cannot believe in a Maker who seems to have popped up from nowhere after thousands of years and then passed on a history of his creation that is so at variance with what is true on the ground. Where are Titans, elves and dwarves in the Chant of Light? Where are the kossith? Or the whole alternate creation of the elves known as the Crossroads? Where is the fact that an elf "god" and not the Maker created the Veil? Or that he and not the Maker was responsible for shutting away a set of gods that could well be the envious spirits crossed over into the material world described in the Chant but at the same time were worshipped by the elves and not humans. Meanwhile the humans have numerous different gods to rival the Maker that are not mentioned by him. The Avvar gods are still functioning fine and have never been imprisoned anywhere. This is not a case of not being able to prove or disprove the Maker. All the evidence disproves the information she was allegedly given by the Maker. That is not faith, it is just stupid.
|
|
Sah291
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
Prime Posts: 1,240
Prime Likes: 1340
Posts: 862 Likes: 1,935
inherit
306
0
1,935
Sah291
862
August 2016
sah291
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
1,240
1340
|
Post by Sah291 on Oct 12, 2017 20:56:15 GMT
According to Andrastian lore and the Chant, yeah, the Maker was supposed to have been an ancient God from before Old God worship took root in Tevinter...In the Chant, he approaches Andraste on a mountain side and claims he had fallen out of power and was forgotten. The Old Gods were already being widely worshipped by then. Given we know there were other gods and pantheons besides the Old Gods, it's possible the Maker could have existed as a being/spirit early humans worshipped at some point. Or he could be a name we already know...like Elgar'nan (or his father)? The only clue we really have is he is a creator God of some kind, he was a god of light or possibly the sun, and he (possibly) occupied the Golden City at some point in time, and was overthrown, or fell from power somehow.
Unfortunately we may never know since they decided never to reveal if the Maker is real or not.
But I wouldn't be surpised if it turned out the Old Gods were only half the pantheon humans used to worship, or something like that...it is really weird how the Magister's sidereal is made up of dragon and earth/underworld type gods exclusively.. not a god of light or sky to be found among them. Something is definitely up with that. Who knows.
|
|
inherit
3318
0
3,791
Psychevore
1,577
February 2017
psychevore
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
|
Post by Psychevore on Oct 12, 2017 21:01:03 GMT
I would disagree. As someone who is religious in real life, I am an atheist in game. I cannot believe in a Maker who seems to have popped up from nowhere after thousands of years and then passed on a history of his creation that is so at variance with what is true on the ground. Isn't that exactly what happened in real life though? Where God was silent for 100,000 years of humanity's existence and suddenly people start believing in God(s)? And isn't the bible completely at variance with what actually happened? Anyway, Dragon Age religion is quite like real life. An absent Maker-belief that suddenly springs up after millenia of polytheism. With a slight twist: the Old Gods actually existed.
|
|
theascendent
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
PSN: The Ascendent
Posts: 482 Likes: 629
inherit
9275
0
May 10, 2024 21:42:29 GMT
629
theascendent
482
Aug 28, 2017 10:17:49 GMT
August 2017
theascendent
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
The Ascendent
|
Post by theascendent on Oct 12, 2017 22:19:23 GMT
Hopefully we might find some interesting revelations in Tevinter. Oldest human civilization in Thedas. They are bound to have some records, however vague we might gain new insights.
|
|
inherit
9381
0
Sept 26, 2017 11:02:50 GMT
642
Superhik
538
Sept 24, 2017 18:39:20 GMT
September 2017
superhik
|
Post by Superhik on Oct 13, 2017 1:09:52 GMT
He was, but he wen't under a different name.
|
|
inherit
∯ Oh Loredy...
455
0
26,699
gervaise21
10,821
August 2016
gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
|
Post by gervaise21 on Oct 13, 2017 11:33:35 GMT
Nope, in real life it is possible to trace the roots of monotheism. Even in a religion such as Hinduism, that seems to have a plethora of gods, there actually seems to be the idea they are all manifestations of a single principle deity. Even the monotheists believe in subordinate spirits, angels, that assist the main deity and in various places in the Old Testament are referred to as "sons of god". Not only that but there is also the belief that some of these helpers rebelled against their role. The local polytheistic religion in Britain was well able to accommodate the Christian faith as fulfilling their own religion because they had the belief that their gods were manifestations of a universal intelligence driving creation (Taliesin). Even if you are going on pure monotheism you can trace it back over many thousands of years, through Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Zoroasterism etc. So belief in a single deity did not spring out of nowhere. This is not the case in Thedas. Plus, of course, we do only have one race, humans, that engage in worship and have a cultural history associated with this.
The problem with Thedas is we have four main races, each with their own religious history and in the case of the dwarves and the elves this would seem to contradict the alleged history of Thedas as outlined to Andraste by the Maker.
The dwarves believe in the Stone, which seems to have strong links with the Titans, so the basis of their religion is proven, even if they have forgotten/erased the link from the memories. Where does the Maker fit there? The Titans do not appear to be spirits of the Fade that rebelled against him. They appear to be essential to the make-up of the material world. So did he make them or not? If he did, why did he not mention them? If he didn't, how are they so integral to everything? Remember the Chantry teach that lyrium is the essence of all creation and the song of lyrium is the "voice of the Maker". So are Titans the Maker?
The elven religion seems to fit the Chant in some places. We even have the Dalish story of Elgar'nan throwing down his father the Sun. That could be recalling the elven gods usurping the place of the Maker (symbolised by the sun) in the hearts of his creation. Except the race that worshipped the Evanuris were the elves not the humans (although we do see some evidence of both worshipping together back in DAO). So this would suggest that the Maker is ascribing the crime of turning his children from him to these gods, whom he then imprisoned in punishment. Except that he didn't do this, Solas did, by creating the Veil, altering the nature of reality in the process. So did the Maker authorise this? Was Fen'Harel really just doing the Maker's dirty work for him? Otherwise we must assume that the Maker was impotent while all this went on and it wasn't his idea at all.
Both the southern barbarians and the kossith apparently worshipped a number of animist gods and the Avvar still do. They appear to have changed little from the time of Andraste. Where is the Maker in their system of belief? Why did Andraste believe that he was completely separate from them and was the original god worshipped by men that had been forgotten by them. Why did the Chant not specifically condemn these gods as well as those of Tevinter? Why were these people being punished (by the Blight) for the crime of following the Old Gods when they never did? It is claimed in the Chant that the people first turned away from worshipping the Maker with the priest of Dumat, Thalsian. He was part of Neromenian culture. It is claimed that the first humans in Thedas were the Neromenians but in that case where did the southern barbarians spring from? They are clearly not related to the Neromenians, or if they are they were then they certainly did not change from worship of one god, the Maker, to the Old Gods.
As for the kossith, when they stopped believing in their animist gods and became the Qun, they stopped believing in a deity altogether.
If the Old Gods (dragons) beneath the earth were imprisoned by the Maker because humans were worshipping them at the time of Thalsian, this was after thousands of years of the worship of other beings by all races and yet apparently the Maker made no attempt to contact any of them. Yet the Maker claims to have turned away when Thalsian started worshipping Dumat. We in fact are given contradictory information in the timeline since the Old Gods are said to whisper to humanity from the City in the Fade for the first time in -2800 Ancient and yet Thalsian did not make contact with Dumat until 1300 years later. So which crime was the Maker punishing and when did he imprison the gods?
Where is the evidence that the Maker ever tried to contact anyone prior to Andraste? There is no evidence of any worship of a specific creator being among the various pantheons. There is no evidence of a monotheist religion that was supressed at any point. There is nothing except the Chant of Light to prove there was ever a belief in the Maker prior to Andraste. Until I see evidence in game of a prior belief we only have the alleged word of this being she claimed to have been in contact with that anyone ever previously worshipped him. According to the Chantry, he claimed he came back because of Andraste, then failed to protect her and promptly ignored his creation again because of that failure, despite the fact that all across the south there were many clans who were worshipping him. Apparently, though, only Drakon's version of the religion, invented 150 years after her death, is the one that everyone should follow in order to receive the forgiveness of the Maker. A religion and a Chant that apparently the Divine of the day can change on a whim.
I'm just not convinced that is something people can genuinely have faith in. It was different back in DAO when none of the gods of the various faiths seemed active in the world and everyone had to take their various beliefs on trust. Now even if the religions of other races have appeared to be disproven because their deities aren't really gods (in the metaphysical sense) they have actually been validated because they have been shown to have definitely existed and been able to act in the world as their followers believed. Some, like those of the Avvar, are still capable of doing so. The only deity that still has to be taken on trust is the Maker.
|
|
Iakus
N7
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 20,888 Likes: 49,358
inherit
402
0
Dec 21, 2018 17:35:11 GMT
49,358
Iakus
20,888
August 2016
iakus
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Iakus on Oct 13, 2017 19:28:07 GMT
The Maker seems to be an ancient Alamarri deity who found popularity after Andraste's Exalted March and death.
|
|
inherit
✜ Forge Mechanic
352
0
Aug 30, 2023 16:01:17 GMT
6,256
PapaCharlie9
3,851
August 2016
papacharlie9
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by PapaCharlie9 on Oct 14, 2017 17:57:33 GMT
There's so much history before the apotheosis of Andraste: Elvhenan, dwarven Thaig civilization, Avvar, the northern island society before and after the Qun, the rise of the Tevinter Empire, etc. I'm hoping we learn more about the culture and religious beliefs of those times.
|
|
inherit
3318
0
3,791
Psychevore
1,577
February 2017
psychevore
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
|
Post by Psychevore on Oct 15, 2017 7:47:21 GMT
Nope, in real life it is possible to trace the roots of monotheism. Even in a religion such as Hinduism, that seems to have a plethora of gods, there actually seems to be the idea they are all manifestations of a single principle deity. Even the monotheists believe in subordinate spirits, angels, that assist the main deity and in various places in the Old Testament are referred to as "sons of god". Not only that but there is also the belief that some of these helpers rebelled against their role. The local polytheistic religion in Britain was well able to accommodate the Christian faith as fulfilling their own religion because they had the belief that their gods were manifestations of a universal intelligence driving creation (Taliesin). Even if you are going on pure monotheism you can trace it back over many thousands of years, through Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Zoroasterism etc. So belief in a single deity did not spring out of nowhere. This is not the case in Thedas. Plus, of course, we do only have one race, humans, that engage in worship and have a cultural history associated with this. The problem with Thedas is we have four main races, each with their own religious history and in the case of the dwarves and the elves this would seem to contradict the alleged history of Thedas as outlined to Andraste by the Maker. The dwarves believe in the Stone, which seems to have strong links with the Titans, so the basis of their religion is proven, even if they have forgotten/erased the link from the memories. Where does the Maker fit there? The Titans do not appear to be spirits of the Fade that rebelled against him. They appear to be essential to the make-up of the material world. So did he make them or not? If he did, why did he not mention them? If he didn't, how are they so integral to everything? Remember the Chantry teach that lyrium is the essence of all creation and the song of lyrium is the "voice of the Maker". So are Titans the Maker? The elven religion seems to fit the Chant in some places. We even have the Dalish story of Elgar'nan throwing down his father the Sun. That could be recalling the elven gods usurping the place of the Maker (symbolised by the sun) in the hearts of his creation. Except the race that worshipped the Evanuris were the elves not the humans (although we do see some evidence of both worshipping together back in DAO). So this would suggest that the Maker is ascribing the crime of turning his children from him to these gods, whom he then imprisoned in punishment. Except that he didn't do this, Solas did, by creating the Veil, altering the nature of reality in the process. So did the Maker authorise this? Was Fen'Harel really just doing the Maker's dirty work for him? Otherwise we must assume that the Maker was impotent while all this went on and it wasn't his idea at all. Both the southern barbarians and the kossith apparently worshipped a number of animist gods and the Avvar still do. They appear to have changed little from the time of Andraste. Where is the Maker in their system of belief? Why did Andraste believe that he was completely separate from them and was the original god worshipped by men that had been forgotten by them. Why did the Chant not specifically condemn these gods as well as those of Tevinter? Why were these people being punished (by the Blight) for the crime of following the Old Gods when they never did? It is claimed in the Chant that the people first turned away from worshipping the Maker with the priest of Dumat, Thalsian. He was part of Neromenian culture. It is claimed that the first humans in Thedas were the Neromenians but in that case where did the southern barbarians spring from? They are clearly not related to the Neromenians, or if they are they were then they certainly did not change from worship of one god, the Maker, to the Old Gods. As for the kossith, when they stopped believing in their animist gods and became the Qun, they stopped believing in a deity altogether. If the Old Gods (dragons) beneath the earth were imprisoned by the Maker because humans were worshipping them at the time of Thalsian, this was after thousands of years of the worship of other beings by all races and yet apparently the Maker made no attempt to contact any of them. Yet the Maker claims to have turned away when Thalsian started worshipping Dumat. We in fact are given contradictory information in the timeline since the Old Gods are said to whisper to humanity from the City in the Fade for the first time in -2800 Ancient and yet Thalsian did not make contact with Dumat until 1300 years later. So which crime was the Maker punishing and when did he imprison the gods? Where is the evidence that the Maker ever tried to contact anyone prior to Andraste? There is no evidence of any worship of a specific creator being among the various pantheons. There is no evidence of a monotheist religion that was supressed at any point. There is nothing except the Chant of Light to prove there was ever a belief in the Maker prior to Andraste. Until I see evidence in game of a prior belief we only have the alleged word of this being she claimed to have been in contact with that anyone ever previously worshipped him. According to the Chantry, he claimed he came back because of Andraste, then failed to protect her and promptly ignored his creation again because of that failure, despite the fact that all across the south there were many clans who were worshipping him. Apparently, though, only Drakon's version of the religion, invented 150 years after her death, is the one that everyone should follow in order to receive the forgiveness of the Maker. A religion and a Chant that apparently the Divine of the day can change on a whim. I'm just not convinced that is something people can genuinely have faith in. It was different back in DAO when none of the gods of the various faiths seemed active in the world and everyone had to take their various beliefs on trust. Now even if the religions of other races have appeared to be disproven because their deities aren't really gods (in the metaphysical sense) they have actually been validated because they have been shown to have definitely existed and been able to act in the world as their followers believed. Some, like those of the Avvar, are still capable of doing so. The only deity that still has to be taken on trust is the Maker. So we can't trace back the origins of Andrastianism to Andraste in Dragon Age? Pretty sure we can. And that's a lot more solid than anything we have for monotheistic religions in the real world. Andraste actually existed. The existence of people like Moses and Jesus is a lot more debatable and they most likely never even existed. So given your need for real, tangible evidence to believe in something, you must be a Muslim. Because the existence of Muhammed is not debatable. The existence of God obviously is.
|
|
inherit
∯ Oh Loredy...
455
0
26,699
gervaise21
10,821
August 2016
gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
|
Post by gervaise21 on Oct 15, 2017 8:48:50 GMT
You completely misinterpret my quote. I do not deny you can trace back belief in the Maker to Andraste. The initial question asked in the post was whether there was any evidence of it earlier than that and currently the answer to that is "No". This is quite important considering the Maker's chief gripe with humankind is that they abandoned belief in him in an earlier time and forgot all about him. Well, it is true that no one remembers worshipping him but that is not quite the same thing. Every other faith has now been shown to have remembered (even if fragmented and not entirely accurate) the origins of their religion. Currently, according to everything we have been shown in game, belief in the Maker started with Andraste.
The other point. Yes, Andrastrianism did begin with Andraste but that is not the same as the Chantry version of the faith. We do have numerous codices in game and information in the lore books to show that many of the southern clans adopted the Maker as a result of her efforts. However, they often did this by simply accommodating him into the existing pantheon. Even those that exclusively worshipped the Maker were eradicated by Drakon if they didn't conform to his version of the Maker. Drakon was actually the grandson of a Tevinter Magister, whose father being a non-mage, thought he would have better prospects in the south. May be he was aware of the fact that the mages were still ruling the roost in Tevinter even if they claimed they were not. That could explain the southern Chantry's deep rooted prejudice against all mages. Or maybe he simply feared the power of independent mages might have to prevent him for brow beating everyone else into submission. Whatever the case, Drakon's Chantry was as much a product of Hessarian's take on Andraste's religion as it was a genuine reflection of what was believed in the south after her death. According to the codex issued with the mage pack in DA2 concerning the staff of Aldenon and associated equipment, the Chantry didn't really establish itself in Ferelden until the rise of Calenhad. His mage friend had hoped to build a kingdom built on compassion, mercy and justice for all; a land a free people. He rightly saw the Chantry as a form of slavery and Calenhad seeking their aid and allying with them as a total betrayal of the principles he thought they were fighting for.
Lastly, whether you believe that Moses or Jesus actually existed is not the issue here. The poster was not asking if anyone believed that Andraste existed. They were asking if belief in the Maker had existed prior to Andraste. Once again I would point to the fact that believe in One God is a feature Judaism, then Christianity, then Islam, so you can trace the belief in monotheism back many thousands of years with these religions alone (and even further if you take the trouble).
There is no similar thread of belief in Thedas either of the Maker as a single supreme deity or even in the Maker as part of a greater pantheon prior to the emergence of Andraste. Therefore you only have Andraste's word for his existence. I accept that some being was passing itself off as the Maker of everything but he seems rather less real and convincing than the other gods still currently active in Thedas that the humans worship and there is less evidence of earlier worship of him than there is for the other races.
|
|
inherit
∯ Oh Loredy...
455
0
26,699
gervaise21
10,821
August 2016
gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
|
Post by gervaise21 on Oct 15, 2017 10:50:00 GMT
The real problem is they have abandoned their original concept: "What would it mean to have fantasy religions where gods were not known entities who provided spells (benefits) to believers but instead required faith in their existence?"
In DAO all religions were equal in this respect. No matter what faith you followed it had to be taken on trust. You could also spot similarities between the various faiths that could suggest they were tied together in some way in the distant past. The most obvious of these was the fact the Chantry believed that the Maker had imprisoned the usurping demons pretending to be gods and the elves believed that their gods had been lost to them because they had been shut away by a being called Fen'Harel. Since one of his motivations was said to have been to have the Fade to himself, it could be argued that Fen'Harel was their name for the Maker and he was obviously considered the enemy because it was owing to him their gods were lost to them. Also there was the other legend of Elgar'nan throwing down the Sun, suggesting this was when they usurped the Maker's place in creation, since he was depicted in the Chantry by the sun. Then apparently these gods started talking to a different race from their prisons but it almost seemed to fit.
In DA2 Sebastian even suggests to Merrill that perhaps they are talking about the same thing. So it was acknowledged by the writers you could see it this way but equally you could deny it. There was nothing definite about any of it. There was no proof and equally there was no real disproof, although they planted the first seeds of doubt by having Corypheus say the Black City was already black when he got there.
This has now been completely done away with. We met the Avvar and discovered that they do not deny their gods are spirits, interact with them and get tangible benefits in return. The PC can even benefit from the prayers and offerings of an Avvar girl. So if you adopt the Avvar religion you need have no faith based on trust but have had it substantiated by actual events. We discover the elven gods did exist and as taught by the priesthood, they were looked away by Fen'Harel. However, there is a big problem in this. Fen'Harel is not simply some spirit of the Fade. He is Solas, we interact with him and he categorically denies he is a god. Plus he tells us the means he used to entrap them was reality changing magic in the form of the Veil. Whilst he never categorically says there is no Maker, to an Inquisitor of faith he can sound very disparaging. And why shouldn't he? All the things the Maker claims to have done we in fact done by Solas. Plus the Maker also taught Andraste (according to the Chant) that the demons looked on the Waking World with envious eyes because they couldn't be part of it. Yet for many thousands of years they could. It was only the actions of Solas that stopped it.
So now it is not so much a case of proving the Maker exists as having proven most of what is contained in the Chant is a lie. I can happily still believe in the sort of Maker Leliana believed in back in DAO, which seems closer to Rivaini belief about god and the universe being the same, and thus may be discovered to be the original human belief (if we ever get up that far), but not in the one peddled by the Chantry. Sadly the writers won't allow this. To be Andrastrian you have to have faith in the Maker promoted by the Chantry and frankly I just can't see how my PC can honestly maintain such a faith when confronted with the evidence to disprove it. Also Divine Leliana is in fact now promoting a wholly new version of Andrastrianism, or may be it is the genuine one that Andraste taught and we've finally got back to it, but I would like some acknowledgement of that.
In any case, it is no longer the idea of "faith" as presented in DAO.
|
|
Sah291
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
Prime Posts: 1,240
Prime Likes: 1340
Posts: 862 Likes: 1,935
inherit
306
0
1,935
Sah291
862
August 2016
sah291
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
1,240
1340
|
Post by Sah291 on Oct 15, 2017 14:32:38 GMT
I don't know, while I agree the writers seem to be holding Andrastianism to a different standard, in choosing not to reveal too much and have it represent "faith" in the game... there is a key difference in why the Avvar, Elves, ancient Tevinter, and even ancient Dwarves can all have tangible proof of their gods.
All those other religions accepted magic at one point...they accepted the idea people could know their gods, and both the elves and ancient Tevinter had priesthoods who were mages. It was revealed the elven gods themselves were considered mages. The Avvar are shamanic. Even the Dwarves, while they don't practice magic as we would know it, they have retained their belief in the Stone and they can hear the Titans communicate this way. Although it was forgotten, it is still in line with their current beliefs and doesn't contradict them.
But Andrastianism is different. Faith isn't just a feature of the religion, it's a central belief, because they believe the Maker is absent. Andraste is worshiped not just because she was the Maker's prophet...but because she is the Maker's bride and main arbitrator between the Maker and humanity. Andrastianism, like the Qun, is a magic denying culture. So you really can't know if the Maker exists except through Andraste. And also like the Qun, it has evolved into an abstract philosophy, and isn't just about worshiping the Maker as a singular spirit/being, but as an abstract idea, like the Logos or Tao.
|
|
inherit
∯ Oh Loredy...
455
0
26,699
gervaise21
10,821
August 2016
gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
|
Post by gervaise21 on Oct 15, 2017 19:47:38 GMT
If the Maker was being represented as an abstract idea like the Logos or the "Word" as found in Christian belief, then I would be fine with that but that is not what the Chantry teach and what we are being asked to have faith in.
The Maker of Andraste was not an abstract idea, as the Chantry teach he did intervene in the world in support of her crusade, with famine, flood, earthquake, etc. So he could act but now chooses not to until everyone sings his praises.
The reason we were believed to be the Herald of Andraste is that the faithful do believe that the Maker and Andraste will ultimately return and we were the prelude to that. Hence we were the Herald of that return. Drakon's whole justification for his authority over the religion was based off a "vision" he had depicting this return. So that was the basis for the faith demonstrated in DAI in our role. Of course it was proven to be baseless and bear in mind that we were actively encouraged to lie about this. Again, I find it hard to have "faith" in something when I personally have been involved in preserving a lie and know that all the leading figures are aware of this.
In any case, where is the evidence that anyone ever believed in the Maker as an abstract idea prior to Andraste? Remember his gripe with humankind is that they did worship him but then demons encouraged them to look elsewhere and according to the Chant they were asked to actively reject the Maker. So whether a tangible being able to interact with the world or an abstract idea, we still need evidence outside the Chant that people were worshipping him and then stopped.
|
|
formerfiend
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Mass Effect Andromeda
PSN: Former_Fiend
Posts: 547 Likes: 955
inherit
6916
0
955
formerfiend
547
April 2017
formerfiend
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Mass Effect Andromeda
Former_Fiend
|
Post by formerfiend on Oct 15, 2017 20:39:33 GMT
Honestly as hard as they pushed the Herald nonsense I kind of wondered if they didn't want/expect the player to actually believe it was a possibility only to have the revelations of Here Lies the Abyss to be a huge, shocking reveal.
|
|
Sah291
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
Prime Posts: 1,240
Prime Likes: 1340
Posts: 862 Likes: 1,935
inherit
306
0
1,935
Sah291
862
August 2016
sah291
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
1,240
1340
|
Post by Sah291 on Oct 15, 2017 22:57:29 GMT
The Chantry folk in Haven at the beginning of DAI are describing the Maker as exactly that though. Listen closely to the ambient banter about there being "one world" and the "light", and the "word". Whether this was what Andraste meant in her time, or if it was a more recent development long after her death, is unknown, but it's still referenced in the Chant:
So if we are looking for evidence of "Maker" worship before Andraste, we have to look for evidence that any earlier cultures had similar concepts. Andraste, for her part, had to have been a mystic or dreamer, if not a mage, to meet "The Maker" in spirit form in the first place. But whatever "spirit" she met, he could only have been an avatar or personification at best, and likely not the Maker's ultimate true form in full. So he could have had many names, and many disguises.
To make a real life comparison, the idea of a "logos" existed before Christianity and you can trace the idea back. But the ancient Greeks would have identified it with Zeus, or Apollo, and mythologically it was also pretty well established a mortal simply didn't see Zeus in his true form, or you would end up toast, or hounded by Hera. He's a shapeshifter and notorious trickster for that reason.
|
|
inherit
∯ Oh Loredy...
455
0
26,699
gervaise21
10,821
August 2016
gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
|
Post by gervaise21 on Oct 16, 2017 8:42:46 GMT
The thing about our own world is that you can believe in an alternate dimension/spirit world that is totally separate from our material one. The spirit world can influence the material world and the denizens of that place can interact with our own but for material beings it is a one way trip to get there.
Now the lore of the Chant was like that. As you quote above, the Maker first created the Fade (heaven). Then later he created the earth (Thedas). Whilst it doesn't categorically state that he created the Veil, it does say that he "placed it apart from the Spirits". Later it also states that the firstborn (the spirits) were envious of the life they could not have or experience and that is how demons arose. This is where the problems occur.
Before the Veil the spirits were able to interact perfectly okay with the elves and able to come and go from the material world with no trouble. So unless you accept that the elves were originally spirits that became more material (like Cole) we have two planes of existence that co-exist rather than being separate, where both spirits and material beings can interact directly. Not only that but the elves also built a bridge between the two (the Crossroads). This doesn't leave a lot of room for an alternate reality where the Logos can be found, even though the Chantry do have some vague notion that is where the Maker now hangs out having vacated the Golden City.
Again, the Logos in our reality has never had its home invaded by anyone it didn't want there. If the Golden City had really been the home of the Maker, would he not have ensured it could not be so easily invaded? Also, what was the case before the Veil? If all that was necessary to get in was to breach the Veil in the right place then presumably before the Veil you could just walk in? If, as the Chant suggests, the Maker had "sealed the gates" of the Golden City on creating the material world, how was it possible to unseal them at all? Did the Magisters really have the power to overcome the "magic" of the Maker? Of course Corypheus says the city was black when he got there so it likely wasn't the true Golden City at all. May be the Maker is still off somewhere in his alternate reality heaven. I would be quite happy to believe that but that is not what the Chantry teaches.
Leliana's idea of the Maker (softened) is much closer to the Christian idea of God. She has had this belief ever since DAO. In fact I identified with her version of the Maker far more than the one peddled by the Chantry even back then. However, I would far rather be able to say I believe in the Maker but not in the Chantry, than have to be part of their religion. I could quite happily have faith in a "Logos" type Maker but that is no what is presented to me in game. In DAI it was annoying that it was the faith of the Chantry that you were following as a "believer" and you were still passively promoting as a "non-believer. If the game is genuinely about "faith" in the entity and not the organisation, then there should be the option for the PC to say they have faith in the Maker but separate from the Chantry's teaching on him, just as Leliana was allowed to do in DAO.
I live in hope that we will find an ancient human version of belief in the Maker prior to the Chantry when we go north, either to Rivain or Seheron (or even possibly the jungles of Par Vollen). At present the nearest we have to this is Korth the Mountain-Father as the supreme deity among the pantheon of the Avvar, although Andraste is said to have appealed to all her known gods and they didn't answer her, which suggests that the Maker was separate from that belief. I also wonder why the Alamarri gods did not answer her? There had been a division between the Alamarri and the Avvar at an earlier stage history (as detailed in the Saga of Tyrdda Brightaxe), so may be that was the point when the gods stopped answering the Alamarri people, since they clearly still do respond to the Avvar. The dispute between the two groups appeared to be over the Alamarri leader's desire to go north in search of wealth and power which Tyrdda did not agree with. Since she was actively aided by the Lady of the Skies it would seem that, so far as the southern barbarians were concerned, that was the point when the lowlanders (Alamarri) broke with their ancient beliefs and lost the support of their gods. If Korth can be seen as an early belief in the Maker, that could be the point where he says that her people "forgot" him. It is also equally possible this was the point when the lowlanders started to heed the call of the "whisperers" from the Fade and started on the path to Old God worship.
|
|
inherit
∯ Oh Loredy...
455
0
26,699
gervaise21
10,821
August 2016
gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
|
Post by gervaise21 on Oct 16, 2017 9:07:18 GMT
A related issue. What about faith spirits? Do they respond simply to the faith of the person in giving their aid or does it have to specifically be faith in the Maker?
In DAO it seemed the spirits that aided Spirit Healers were Spirits of Faith and that they were tolerated by the Chantry as a result. Wynne was rescued by a Faith Spirit. However, subsequently the spirits concerned with healing have been identified as Spirits of Compassion, which makes sense and removes the problem about them assisting someone with no faith.
Seekers of Truth are given their powers by a Faith Spirit but is it the strength of the faith which attracts it, so any person with similar strength of faith could acquire the same powers, or is it the nature of the faith, so it is only given to a person who has faith in the Maker?
What about faith in an ideal, such as freedom, rather than an actual deity?
Would a worshipper of the Old Gods who still had sufficient faith in their deity receive the aid of a Faith Spirit?
Was it in fact a Faith Spirit that was aiding Andraste much of the time, even if her original contact was with the actual Maker? Was it her desire for freedom from tyranny for her people that attracted a Faith Spirit to her that she called the Maker? In fact in some of the earliest parts of the Chant she doesn't call the being the Maker at all. He is identified as the Wellspring of All. (So were the writers just messing with us when they called the area inside the Titan in the Descent the Wellspring?)
|
|
Sah291
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
Prime Posts: 1,240
Prime Likes: 1340
Posts: 862 Likes: 1,935
inherit
306
0
1,935
Sah291
862
August 2016
sah291
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
1,240
1340
|
Post by Sah291 on Oct 16, 2017 15:48:38 GMT
Well, Solas does a pretty good job corroborating that part of the Chant, at least. Solas also alluded to the ancient elves having a concept of "one world" or "one reality" in which they perceived the Fade as finely interconnected with the material world. Solas describes the Fade as being "everywhere" like air, and so spirits came and went and interacted with the world as they wished. The elves could therefore build bridges and structures dependent upon the Fade, and create with the help of spirits.
This doesn't necessarily mean the elves were spirits themselves, or that there weren't different dimensions (obviously the crossroads still existed), but we can at least say they did not conceive of a major line of separation between the world of spirit, and that they lived along side both realities. It's not out of step with polytheism either, in which the gods and spirits are thought to be active forces in the world and participating with the creation and maintenance of it.
Solas also alludes to the idea that the creation of the Veil gave rise to demons, since spirits wanted to join the living, and they were now trapped on the other side, invisible to the world.
If the Maker is meant to represent "Logos" then yeah I think it's possible the spirit Andraste met was a faith spirit, or spirit of her own creation of some kind, or possibly a reflection from the Fade. A spirit personification of her own divine spark or logos, that came to her in a dream/vision on the mountain side (which was possibly the sacred place of her gods where she went to pray). Assuming Andraste was a mystic or dreamer, I think that would be more in line with a mystic interpretation of The Chant. This would have been post Veil. So her ancestral gods were silent, or no longer active or able to assist her people (her tribe was forgetting the old ways?). So she looked to the only place left she could.
Yup I agree, Leliana's interpretation seems more in line with the actual lore than the official Chantry teaching...but I guess that is just supposed to show how official organizations can differ starkly from actual belief of their followers. Leliana was considered a heretic, even though she might actually be right about a lot things. Leliana said the Maker was still active in the world and never really abandoned, left, or was driven out of anywhere... So it might be the case, the Maker isn't really gone, just hidden. Maybe he wasn't even forgotten exactly, but was always hidden.
As for the Magisters crossing the Veil, I'm guessing they simply failed to cross the abyss, that is why the city was black, and they have wandered the abyss ever since with their memories stripped. Perhaps they ticked off a guardian at the gates, or the Maker really did cast them out. Or perhaps what they saw was simply not what they were expecting to see. The Magisters were not worshiping the "logos" aspect of the Maker at all were they, but old gods of silence and chaos, and dragons of the earth. Something that, even according to the Chant, came before the Maker.
Now, in occult/magical lore, the Logos is associated with the divine masculine principle, or spirit aspect of creation. But then there is also a feminine creation principle, associated with chaos, the earth, and the material world, etc. An abyss or chasm is a wellspring of sorts, because all that is possible, all that will be or could ever be, comes out of this chaos. In folklore it is sometimes likened to an egg, the womb of a goddess, an ocean, well, cave, or chasm, and sometimes a metaphor for the subconscious, etc.
The missing "divine feminine" - the writers hint at this idea a lot, with their portrayal of Mythal, Flemeth as a Dragon mother of sorts, The Lady of the Skies, and Andraste as "bride" of the Maker, but never quite point it out.
|
|