inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
18,242
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Oct 4, 2016 22:45:31 GMT
Connor's accident was the one of the Circle system fault. I did not mention Connor. I am saying it can happen to ANY mage. With an untrained child like him, it's simply easier. He willingly accept the demon's offer, because he was untrained, and desperate. And: he was in home, not in the school, where he should have been. If this would be so frequent, by now Tevinter already has repeatedly been destroyed. But: Tevinter exist. Tevinter is an oxymoron, or: Tevinter much more safer, than the Circles... as I said.
|
|
inherit
1685
0
1,633
riverdaleswhiteflash
1,501
Sept 28, 2016 8:03:42 GMT
September 2016
riverdaleswhiteflash
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
|
Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Oct 4, 2016 22:46:33 GMT
First: let's get our definition of abomination down. "Abomination" in this setting means possessed mage. What Meredith becomes arguably qualifies by most definitions, but not by the one used in this setting. For another thing: Vivienne's paranoia is explicitly about dealing with the temptations of demons. That's not going to lead her to dealing with them. In fact it seems to be drawing her too far in the opposite direction. And if it does somehow happen that this paranoia leads her to draw on some other evil power, she's more dangerous than a non-mage who'd drawn on the same evil power because she has her own natural power as a mage. Being a mage is a not insignificant part of why Vivienne is a big threat, even if she's still be scary without her magic. As for the accidents being very rare, they're also very dangerous. Connor had almost no magic when he turned, and he still has it in his power to wipe out Redcliffe when merging with a relatively powerful but not top tier demon. Imagine a grown-up Connor with the same demon. I don't think you've answered the point that if an abomination does form in the Circle, it's at least not forming in a city full of people with no magic. Even if Circles make abominations more plentiful, they're also surrounding them with people who aren't entirely defenseless. Do you have any actual evidence that abominations can't form from mages who don't agree to it, and that questionable consent like being unable or too distracted to resist isn't enough? And what does Lord Seeker Lucius have to do with this? What does a corrupt person reaching the top of an organization and destroying it from within after it's already gone off the rails anyway have to do with whether or not that organization's business as usual is okay? Abomination is abomination. Just remember: Meredith was paranoid, she afraid from the uncontrollable power. AND: she dealt with an uncontrollable power. No. The paranoid person is not safe because of his/her paranoia. The demons can use his/her paranoia easily. No. Very rare accidents not justify innocent thousands' imprisoned. Included very dangerous accidents. How can I prove something that didn't happen? Lord Seeker Lucius dealt with a demon. As a mage. All people able to deal with a demon. "Abomination is abomination" isn't a very helpful definition. Demons can use paranoia, but paranoia about demons is probably harder for them. Any demon that tried to help her with that paranoia would just get a "and how do I know you're not a demon?" We're talking about a very rare accident that can wipe out a city. Are the rights of thousands of mages who are removed from the cities more important than the hundreds of thousands who live in those cities? Is that the fact that their city is already unlikely to be utterly wiped out enough reason not to try and make it less likely? I don't know how you're going to prove that demons can't possess someone who doesn't want it, since it's hard to prove a negative, but at this point that argument is going to fall flat if you don't. I've already pointed to bits where it seems clear that a demon didn't follow that rule, and then Iakus drove the point home by showing that the quote you seem to have been thinking of doesn't indicate what you think it does. Lord Seeker Lucius doesn't have demons drawn to his dreams. He can make deals with a demon, but he has to find one first. And my guess on how he did so is that it was summoned by a mage. Possibly Corypheus himself, though a Venatori sorcerer could as easily have done so. Quite the puzzle, isn't it? If I had to guess, I'd say that it's partially because most of the mages who actually live all that long are powerful enough that they are unlikely to be possessed. Apparently WoT states that Felix Alexius is not one of those mages, and that his grandfather tried to have him killed; if that's at all typical I'd imagine that most of the Tevinter mages a demon can possess are powerful and on guard. And part of it is just because abominations are in general not an existential threat to the world. I've argued that they've wiped out whole cities, not that they've wiped out whole countries. So: Tevinter safer, then the Circles. Thank you. Tevinter's system might have found a way to make abominations less plentiful. They do this at the cost of slaughtering weak mages, whereas I at least think mages should have a choice between the Harrowing and being Tranquilized. They also do this by putting mages in charge, and specifically the most ruthless mages who are willing to step on anyone to maintain their own power. These mages support a system of slavery so that they can have blood sacrifices whenever they need them. While I mostly support the Circles to keep abominations down, they also prevent mages of the sort that rule Tevinter from stepping all over everyone else. Unless you're concerned about literally nothing but keeping the abomination rate down, that's not an okay trade. And if you're concerned about the mages' rights, what about the rights of the slaves these mages keep? Especially the mage slaves? One thing the game has not really demonstrated very well is that abominations are supposed to be freaking scary! They are a gestalt combination of mage and demon more powerful than the two separate. And yet, especially in DA2, they are treated as simple mooks, just another demon to be killed, when they can wipe out entire towns, kill whole squads of templars. And yes, as my quote above, "questionable consent" is definitely a way mages can be possessed. They can be tricked, approached at a weak or distracted moment, they can give permission under duress (we se that in the Uldred fight in DAO, in fact) Connor's accident was the one of the Circle system fault. If the system you advocate for would have had Connor remain at home, that accident could just as easily have happened on your watch. The pro-mages who concede that mages need to be taken away from their families just long enough to get their powers under control might have hit on a system that could have prevented this. Are you one of them?
|
|
Iakus
N7
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 20,887 Likes: 49,356
inherit
402
0
Dec 21, 2018 17:35:11 GMT
49,356
Iakus
20,887
August 2016
iakus
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Iakus on Oct 4, 2016 23:13:00 GMT
I did not mention Connor. I am saying it can happen to ANY mage. With an untrained child like him, it's simply easier. He willingly accept the demon's offer, because he was untrained, and desperate. And: he was in home, not in the school, where he should have been. If this would be so frequent, by now Tevinter already has repeatedly been destroyed. But: Tevinter exist. Tevinter is an oxymoron, or: Tevinter much more safer, than the Circles... as I said. We don't know what safeguards Tevinter might or might not have. Hopefully the next game will shed some light on that. Though it should be noted Tevinter is not what it once was...
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
18,242
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Oct 4, 2016 23:15:16 GMT
Abomination is abomination. Just remember: Meredith was paranoid, she afraid from the uncontrollable power. AND: she dealt with an uncontrollable power. No. The paranoid person is not safe because of his/her paranoia. The demons can use his/her paranoia easily. No. Very rare accidents not justify innocent thousands' imprisoned. Included very dangerous accidents. How can I prove something that didn't happen? Lord Seeker Lucius dealt with a demon. As a mage. All people able to deal with a demon. "Abomination is abomination" isn't a very helpful definition. Demons can use paranoia, but paranoia about demons is probably harder for them. Any demon that tried to help her with that paranoia would just get a "and how do I know you're not a demon?" We're talking about a very rare accident that can wipe out a city. Are the rights of thousands of mages who are removed from the cities more important than the hundreds of thousands who live in those cities? Is that the fact that their city is already unlikely to be utterly wiped out enough reason not to try and make it less likely? I don't know how you're going to prove that demons can't possess someone who doesn't want it, since it's hard to prove a negative, but at this point that argument is going to fall flat if you don't. I've already pointed to bits where it seems clear that a demon didn't, and then Iakus drove the point home by showing that the quote you seem to have been thinking of doesn't indicate what you think it does. Lord Seeker Lucius doesn't have demons drawn to his dreams. He can make deals with a demon, but he has to find one first. And my guess on how he did so is that it was summoned by a mage. Possibly Corypheus himself, though a Venatori sorcerer could as easily have done so. So: Tevinter safer, then the Circles. Thank you. Tevinter's system might have found a way to make abominations less plentiful. They do this at the cost of slaughtering weak mages, whereas I at least think mages should have a choice between the Harrowing and being Tranquilized. They also do this by putting mages in charge, and specifically the most ruthless mages who are willing to step on anyone to maintain their own power. These mages support a system of slavery so that they can have blood sacrifices whenever they need them. While I mostly support the Circles to keep abominations down, they also prevent mages of the sort that rule Tevinter from stepping all over everyone else. Unless you're concerned about literally nothing but keeping the abomination rate down, that's not an okay trade. And if you're concerned about the mages' rights, what about the rights of the slaves these mages keep? Especially the mage slaves? Connor's accident was the one of the Circle system fault. If the system you advocate for would have had Connor remain at home, that accident could just as easily have happened on your watch. The pro-mages who concede that mages need to be taken away from their families just long enough to get their powers under control might have hit on a system that could have prevented this. Are you one of them? 1/a) The demons can disguise themselves, or not that easy? We talked about, that happen, that demons not directly connected with mages, just suggests something, that the mages accepts. This is not that hard to do with a paranoid person. 1/ So, you think: Lord seeker Lucius(-like people) not that dangerous than a mage. Willingly accept the demon's offer so much less danger to the world, than "accidentally"? 2/a) Become zombie, or dead? I Don't know, which is crueler. But I think, the freedom are worth it. 2/ The human sacrifice not necessarly need for the blood magic. The human sacrifice is unacceptable, as the slavery. Why you think, I like Tevinter's outlook on life? I just see: the mages can live in freedom, and don't destroy their cities. 3. Yes, Connor's accident is undoubtedly the Circle-system's and the Chantry's responsibility. Because Isolde dont let him into the Circle. AND: most of the "pro-mages" know: the magic is dangerous weapon, then must to learn. The Circles are very important institutes: just need more, and scattered placement, because of Veil. This Circles need to be boarding scools, where the mage children can learn, but not imprisoned for a life.
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
18,242
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Oct 4, 2016 23:17:18 GMT
He willingly accept the demon's offer, because he was untrained, and desperate. And: he was in home, not in the school, where he should have been. If this would be so frequent, by now Tevinter already has repeatedly been destroyed. But: Tevinter exist. Tevinter is an oxymoron, or: Tevinter much more safer, than the Circles... as I said. We don't know what safeguards Tevinter might or might not have. Hopefully the next game will shed some light on that. Though it should be noted Tevinter is not what it once was...Probably less cities exist...
|
|
Nyx
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Prime Posts: 720
Prime Likes: 894
Posts: 123 Likes: 352
inherit
799
0
352
Nyx
123
August 2016
lostinreverie19
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
720
894
|
Post by Nyx on Oct 5, 2016 0:31:00 GMT
1. Within the context of the DA universe, why do you prefer Templars or Mages?
I prefer mages, because I see them as an oppressed group within the world of Dragon Age. They suffer a lot of injustices that the Chantry turns a blind eye to or even supports in some cases (like taking away a mage's baby and forbidding mages from marriage). It's immoral to me to imprison people for crimes they haven't even committed just because they might commit a crime. Could you imagine if that was the case in real life? Genetics says you're likely to be a sociopath so we better lock you up in case you start killing people one day. It's wrong. Maybe it's because I lean libertarian in some ways, but it's wrong to restrict the rights of the individual in order to prevent hypothetical harm to the many. 2. Is it simply preference, or do you actively dislike the other? If so, what specifically do you hate?
I hate the very idea of the templar order in Dragon Age. They police and imprison people for crimes they may never commit. Their whole ideology is immoral to me. In particular, I loathe those templars who abuse mages. As Anders points out, there are templars who rape or torture mages, threatening them with Tranquility if they try to report it. Just look at Ser Alrik in DA2. And the Chantry did nothing about it. And then there's the fact mages have barely any rights as people. They can't get married or even keep their children. They're treated as prisoners, not charges to be cared for and protected, no matter what the Chantry tries to say about it. 3. Have you played both? If yes, did it give you any new insight? If not, why?
Yes, I have. I rarely take the templar side, but sometimes I do for variety's sake. It remains extremely distasteful to me. For the Mage fans: 4. Many Mage fans have likened the Circle to various forms of real world discrimination. Yet, like mutants in X-Men, magic in Dragon Age gives a clear inborn advantage to those with over those without. Being able to shoot fire or control minds is NOT the same as having a different skin color or sexuality. This false equivalency can give the impression of "they're just holding us down because we really are better than they are". How do you address this imbalance?
No one is ever going to be completely equal in ability. That's unrealistic. Even in the real world, there are people who know how to kill quickly and efficiently, yet we don't lock them up just because they might go crazy and start killing everyone. Even people with mental illnesses like sociopathy aren't forcefully imprisoned unless they've already demonstrated that they are a danger to others. In Dragon Age, even the most peaceful and docile of mages are locked up. I can understand imprisoning mages who show tendencies toward aggression to others, but most mages are not like that. Disregarding the city of Kirkwall, which, if you've read through the Enigma of Kirkwall codex entries, is obviously a tainted site, possessions and blood magic seem really rare. There's no reason to lock up 100% of mages when it seems like 5% or less become dangerous. 5. Mage fans can often treat magic the same as superpowers, completely ignoring it's context within DA lore; i.e., the necessity of lyrium and/or blood, how it can weaken the Veil, and the constant threat of demonic possession. They rationalize that since as Players they can easily avoid such pratfalls, everyone should be able to. This dismisses that Player Characters are always given agency that most NPCs never have, or that entitled players would whine if they where subject to the same restrictions. Your response?
You're not giving NPC mages enough credit. They aren't all weak willed doormats ready to accept a demon's deal whenever one shows up. Like I said above, possession and blood magic are rare enough that mass imprisonment is not justified to me. In real life, mass gun violence seems common, because whenever it happens, that's all the media can talk about, but it's actually rare. And no one is suggesting banning all guns (equivalent to locking up all mages) just because someone might start shooting everyone in sight. 6. When asked how they would protect the average citizen from magical abuse, several of the most common answers have huge holes:
A. "Mages and Templars will work together". That might work in a more idealized and black and white setting, but Dragon Age is an adult story with complex characters and black and grey conflicts.
B. "Mages will protect mundanes". Even getting past how patronizing this sounds, as if those without magic are helpless children, this position is illogical due to normals outnumbering Mages 100 to 1. By the time your Mage Cop got to a town being terrorized by a Blood Mage or Abomination, it would be too late.
C. "Normals and Mages will stay away from each other". Ignoring the moral implications of how segregation only reinforces ignorance and hatred, eventually expanding populations competing for resources will bring everyone right back right where they started.
D. "I don't care about average joes, I play fantasy RPGs to imagine myself among special people". That's potentially valid for a personal story, but it's crap world building and breaks immersion for the rest of us.
E. "Mundanes don't deserve protection! They've kept us down for too long, are now they're going too pay!" Hey, I'm all for allowing Players to become the Villain if they choose. Just don't expect the rest of the world to accept it just because you are the Protagonist.
How would you address these issues?
If I were in charge of Thedas, I'd take a more Tevinter approach to policing mages who become dangers to others. In my version of Thedas, the templars would still exist, but they'd be similar to a police force against magical crimes. Mages would be able to live wherever they choose to and have families. Circles would be like universities of magic and not prisons. If a mage became an abomination or used blood magic to hurt others, templars would respond and take the mage into custody or kill the mage if they don't surrender and threaten more innocents. 7. Most likely we will be going to Tevinter in DA4, where Mages rule. Will you still help the oppressed underdog and give mundanes a leg up in the Imperium, or preserve the status quo for "Mage Power"?Yes, I'd hope that non-mages could have more say in governing Tevinter and weren't all treated like servants or plebeians. Non-mages should be allowed seats in the government and the ability to become the Archon. Slavery should be abolished and elves treated as full citizens. Obviously this is my idealized version of Tevinter where mages enjoy the same freedoms as everyone else. I'm a fan of Tevinter, but I can still see its flaws too.
|
|
oyabun
N3
Posts: 374 Likes: 214
inherit
1613
0
Aug 15, 2018 12:36:15 GMT
214
oyabun
374
Sept 17, 2016 22:36:29 GMT
September 2016
oyabun
|
Post by oyabun on Oct 5, 2016 1:30:43 GMT
Many Mage fans have likened the Circle to various forms of real world discrimination. Yet, like mutants in X-Men, magic in Dragon Age gives a clear inborn advantage to those with over those without. Being able to shoot fire or control minds is NOT the same as having a different skin color or sexuality. This false equivalency can give the impression of "they're just holding us down because we really are better than they are". How do you address this imbalance?
No one is ever going to be completely equal in ability. That's unrealistic. Even in the real world, there are people who know how to kill quickly and efficiently, yet we don't lock them up just because they might go crazy and start killing everyone. Even people with mental illnesses like sociopathy aren't forcefully imprisoned unless they've already demonstrated that they are a danger to others. In Dragon Age, even the most peaceful and docile of mages are locked up. I can understand imprisoning mages who show tendencies toward aggression to others, but most mages are not like that. Disregarding the city of Kirkwall, which, if you've read through the Enigma of Kirkwall codex entries, is obviously a tainted site, possessions and blood magic seem really rare. There's no reason to lock up 100% of mages when it seems like 5% or less become dangerous.. that's not a matter of ability and i do think that anyone who underestimate spirits and demons is naive because To think that beings who have thousands of years aren't able to trick mortals is naïve,just look at the shade demon in DAO who created a whole elaborate trap in the Brecilian forest and killed plenty of people with it,if a mage would have entered in it,it would have became a possessed abomination. If there aren't all those abominations is because of the circle. Plus people with the power to destroy a city or alter the world should be watched 24/24 hours.
|
|
oyabun
N3
Posts: 374 Likes: 214
inherit
1613
0
Aug 15, 2018 12:36:15 GMT
214
oyabun
374
Sept 17, 2016 22:36:29 GMT
September 2016
oyabun
|
Post by oyabun on Oct 5, 2016 1:52:13 GMT
[quote source="/post/97979/thread" timestamp="1475521750" author=" riverdaleswhiteflash "Didn't you say that they accidentally to become abominations? ... But you not right: to become abomination, the mage need to accept the demon's offer. Yes and no. The way Gaider described this, it seems more like the mage needs to not actively reject it, even if the only reason they don't is because they're distracted (or barely conscious after getting horribly beaten) and not really able to. Which explains both First Enchanter Casimira and the Rage Demon in the Mage Origin that seems to be trying to forcibly possess the Warden. It also probably explains the Journal of the Tranquil codex entry that seemed concerned with forcible possession. Oh, and Iron Bull seems to think he can be possessed without agreeing to, judging by his dialogue during the Fade Sequence in Here Lies the Abyss, though it must be said that that's not as reliable as the rest of the evidence in that direction since Qunari views on mages and magic seem to verge on paranoia. And I feel confident I'm missing some evidence to the effect that "demons need consent" is at best an Obi-Wan Truth. The mages, who are able to leave the Circles maybe really trustworthy, but maybe only manipulative. I think, Vivienne too hungry for power. Exactly such people fall into temptation. The way I feel about Vivienne is complicated. In some ways she's exactly what the Circle system was meant to protect others from. In at least two, however, she's exactly what it was meant to create. The first is that she believes the Circle should exist, and argues for it at least as well as I am. The second is that she really is too afraid of demons to be possessed by her consent: we have evidence from Cole's mind reading that she's paranoid even about helpful spirits. At any rate, she's powerful enough that she doesn't need to worry about forcible possessions even if they can happen. Mages are not mentally ill. I didn't say they were. I said that they are similar to the mentally ill, in that they can pose a danger to others without wanting to and without suffering any moral failing. If mages can be possessed without their consent (and I believe I've compiled a pretty good list of reasons to believe they can) then I think the comparison is a valid one. The Inquisition kind of weakened the Chantry's grip on the lyrium trade too, not to mention the availability of lyrium in Tevinter. There has to be mundanes out there that have tried the stuff, somewhere, if it's what gives Templars their 'abilities' and not the training, then lyrium should be able to effect anyone, not just mages and Templars, and give them some sort of powers. IMO The description of the Templar specialization in DA2 said that Hawke is able to use Templar abilities due to buying smuggled lyrium. Though since the specializations from the last two games don't seem to be honored in DA:I I'm not sure if that's actually part of the lore or not. The specialization description explicitly says that the spirit is augmenting the warrior's abilities, rather than just being a medium. I have no idea how the spirit would grant an ability it can't use. And while using demons to grant the power doesn't seem to be the usual arrangement, I see no reason why it should be an impossible one and no reason why a demon wouldn't want to make such an arrangement as a way of getting a foot in the door in the mortal realm. The spec doesn't say that the abilities of a SW are gained from the spirit,if a spirit can use fireball the SW will still be unable to do that because the only thing they again is an acess into the fade. Demons are not attracted by SW only spirits are affected by their call,the spec is called spiritual warriors after all and not demon warriors,demons do not like to approach spirits.
|
|
inherit
1685
0
1,633
riverdaleswhiteflash
1,501
Sept 28, 2016 8:03:42 GMT
September 2016
riverdaleswhiteflash
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
|
Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Oct 5, 2016 2:12:26 GMT
Yes and no. The way Gaider described this, it seems more like the mage needs to not actively reject it, even if the only reason they don't is because they're distracted (or barely conscious after getting horribly beaten) and not really able to. Which explains both First Enchanter Casimira and the Rage Demon in the Mage Origin that seems to be trying to forcibly possess the Warden. It also probably explains the Journal of the Tranquil codex entry that seemed concerned with forcible possession. Oh, and Iron Bull seems to think he can be possessed without agreeing to, judging by his dialogue during the Fade Sequence in Here Lies the Abyss, though it must be said that that's not as reliable as the rest of the evidence in that direction since Qunari views on mages and magic seem to verge on paranoia. And I feel confident I'm missing some evidence to the effect that "demons need consent" is at best an Obi-Wan Truth. The way I feel about Vivienne is complicated. In some ways she's exactly what the Circle system was meant to protect others from. In at least two, however, she's exactly what it was meant to create. The first is that she believes the Circle should exist, and argues for it at least as well as I am. The second is that she really is too afraid of demons to be possessed by her consent: we have evidence from Cole's mind reading that she's paranoid even about helpful spirits. At any rate, she's powerful enough that she doesn't need to worry about forcible possessions even if they can happen. I didn't say they were. I said that they are similar to the mentally ill, in that they can pose a danger to others without wanting to and without suffering any moral failing. If mages can be possessed without their consent (and I believe I've compiled a pretty good list of reasons to believe they can) then I think the comparison is a valid one. The description of the Templar specialization in DA2 said that Hawke is able to use Templar abilities due to buying smuggled lyrium. Though since the specializations from the last two games don't seem to be honored in DA:I I'm not sure if that's actually part of the lore or not. The specialization description explicitly says that the spirit is augmenting the warrior's abilities, rather than just being a medium. I have no idea how the spirit would grant an ability it can't use. And while using demons to grant the power doesn't seem to be the usual arrangement, I see no reason why it should be an impossible one and no reason why a demon wouldn't want to make such an arrangement as a way of getting a foot in the door in the mortal realm. The spec doesn't say that the abilities of a SW are gained from the spirit,if a spirit can use fireball the SW will still be unable to do that because the only thing they again is an acess into the fade. Demons are not attracted by SW only spirits are affected by their call,the spec is called spiritual warriors after all and not demon warriors,demons do not like to approach spirits. ... where are you getting all of this?
|
|
inherit
1685
0
1,633
riverdaleswhiteflash
1,501
Sept 28, 2016 8:03:42 GMT
September 2016
riverdaleswhiteflash
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
|
Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Oct 5, 2016 3:09:13 GMT
1/a) The demons can disguise themselves, or not that easy? We talked about, that happen, that demons not directly connected with mages, just suggests something, that the mages accepts. This is not that hard to do with a paranoid person. 1/ So, you think: Lord seeker Lucius(-like people) not that dangerous than a mage. Willingly accept the demon's offer so much less danger to the world, than "accidentally"? 2/a) Become zombie, or dead? I Don't know, which is crueler. But I think, the freedom are worth it. 2/ The human sacrifice not necessarly need for the blood magic. The human sacrifice is unacceptable, as the slavery. Why you think, I like Tevinter's outlook on life? I just see: the mages can live in freedom, and don't destroy their cities. 3. Yes, Connor's accident is undoubtedly the Circle-system's and the Chantry's responsibility. Because Isolde dont let him into the Circle. AND: most of the "pro-mages" know: the magic is dangerous weapon, then must to learn. The Circles are very important institutes: just need more, and scattered placement, because of Veil. This Circles need to be boarding scools, where the mage children can learn, but not imprisoned for a life. 1a: I don't think that answered my argument. In fact, I think my argument answered that. How do you think a demon is going to disguise itself in a way that allows it to persuade someone paranoid about disguised demons trying to possess her... that it should possess her the way she's paranoid a demon will? And even if that's possible, why do you think that that's easier than possessing someone who's not paranoid about exactly what the demon's trying to do? 1b: Well, demons don't visit him in his dreams. So that's one major way he's less dangerous than a mage. Also he can't light fires with a snap of his fingers. If his political power makes more dangerous than the Circle mages, a mage with his political powers would be in balance more dangerous than he is. 2a: The point is, the Tevinter system of dealing with the weak mages who could more easily become an abomination seems to involve just killing them. At least the White Circles give them a choice between death and Tranquility, even if that's not much of a choice. Meanwhile the Avvar system for dealing with potential abominations is for the spirits that they worship as gods to kill such weak mages in their sleep. You want freedom? Of the three systems for dealing with weak mages that easily come to mind, the Circle offers them the most freedom to choose their fate. 2b: Yes, but the point is that if all the mages are trapped in the Circles, it's a lot easier to stop the mages from practicing human sacrifice and slavery. If the mages are let free, it's practically inevitable that the powerful and amoral ones will gain power. There's other ways to stop that, but the Circle system does that and creates a place outside of the general population that is more likely to survive an abomination for an abomination to form in. 3: I'll grant you that keeping mages in the Circle for life will cause this, but letting them out an permanent basis risks abominations who are just that much worse due to the mage's training forming in population centers. I don't view this as anything like as dangerous as letting an untrained mage walk free, since they almost certainly won't turn, but if they do...
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
18,242
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Oct 5, 2016 3:37:36 GMT
1/a) The demons can disguise themselves, or not that easy? We talked about, that happen, that demons not directly connected with mages, just suggests something, that the mages accepts. This is not that hard to do with a paranoid person. 1/ So, you think: Lord seeker Lucius(-like people) not that dangerous than a mage. Willingly accept the demon's offer so much less danger to the world, than "accidentally"? 2/a) Become zombie, or dead? I Don't know, which is crueler. But I think, the freedom are worth it. 2/ The human sacrifice not necessarly need for the blood magic. The human sacrifice is unacceptable, as the slavery. Why you think, I like Tevinter's outlook on life? I just see: the mages can live in freedom, and don't destroy their cities. 3. Yes, Connor's accident is undoubtedly the Circle-system's and the Chantry's responsibility. Because Isolde dont let him into the Circle. AND: most of the "pro-mages" know: the magic is dangerous weapon, then must to learn. The Circles are very important institutes: just need more, and scattered placement, because of Veil. This Circles need to be boarding scools, where the mage children can learn, but not imprisoned for a life. 1a: I don't think that answered my argument. In fact, I think my argument answered that. How do you think a demon is going to disguise itself in a way that allows it to persuade someone paranoid about disguised demons trying to possess her... that it should possess her the way she's paranoid a demon will? And even if that's possible, why do you think that that's easier than possessing someone who's not paranoid about exactly what the demon's trying to do? 1b: Well, demons don't visit him in his dreams. So that's one major way he's less dangerous than a mage. Also he can't light fires with a snap of his fingers. If his political power makes more dangerous than the Circle mages, a mage with his political powers would be in balance more dangerous than he is. 2a: The point is, the Tevinter system of dealing with the weak mages who could more easily become an abomination seems to involve just killing them. At least the White Circles give them a choice between death and Tranquility, even if that's not much of a choice. Meanwhile the Avvar system for dealing with potential abominations is for the spirits that they worship as gods to kill such weak mages in their sleep. You want freedom? Of the three systems for dealing with weak mages that easily come to mind, the Circle offers them the most freedom to choose their fate.2b: Yes, but the point is that if all the mages are trapped in the Circles, it's a lot easier to stop the mages from practicing human sacrifice and slavery. If the mages are let free, it's practically inevitable that the powerful and amoral ones will gain power. There's other ways to stop that, but the Circle system does that and creates a place outside of the general population that is more likely to survive an abomination for an abomination to form in. 3: I'll grant you that keeping mages in the Circle for life will cause this, but letting them out an permanent basis risks abominations who are just that much worse due to the mage's training forming in population centers. I don't view this as anything like as dangerous as letting an untrained mage walk free, since they almost certainly won't turn, but if they do... Okay, I tryed. So: Each person can be dangerous. Each person is able to light a fire. Most of people able yield to the temptation. Very little percent of the mages becomes Abomination. Because of some danger, imprison them all is great sin. No other argument, and also not need other argument. And: Tevinter still exist. So: where are the mages, who accidentally destroyed the cities? More choices offers the Circles? What? Death or zombie mode life and life imprisonment? More slap, or rather to lick the Templars ass to clean? Don't forget: the Templars can brutalize mages without any consequences. This is the part of the Circle system. (Be apostate is not the Circles' offer, its the one real CHOICE.) The whole Circle system is wrong: cruel, but dangerous and inefficient.
|
|
inherit
1685
0
1,633
riverdaleswhiteflash
1,501
Sept 28, 2016 8:03:42 GMT
September 2016
riverdaleswhiteflash
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
|
Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Oct 5, 2016 4:06:36 GMT
1a: I don't think that answered my argument. In fact, I think my argument answered that. How do you think a demon is going to disguise itself in a way that allows it to persuade someone paranoid about disguised demons trying to possess her... that it should possess her the way she's paranoid a demon will? And even if that's possible, why do you think that that's easier than possessing someone who's not paranoid about exactly what the demon's trying to do? 1b: Well, demons don't visit him in his dreams. So that's one major way he's less dangerous than a mage. Also he can't light fires with a snap of his fingers. If his political power makes more dangerous than the Circle mages, a mage with his political powers would be in balance more dangerous than he is. 2a: The point is, the Tevinter system of dealing with the weak mages who could more easily become an abomination seems to involve just killing them. At least the White Circles give them a choice between death and Tranquility, even if that's not much of a choice. Meanwhile the Avvar system for dealing with potential abominations is for the spirits that they worship as gods to kill such weak mages in their sleep. You want freedom? Of the three systems for dealing with weak mages that easily come to mind, the Circle offers them the most freedom to choose their fate.2b: Yes, but the point is that if all the mages are trapped in the Circles, it's a lot easier to stop the mages from practicing human sacrifice and slavery. If the mages are let free, it's practically inevitable that the powerful and amoral ones will gain power. There's other ways to stop that, but the Circle system does that and creates a place outside of the general population that is more likely to survive an abomination for an abomination to form in. 3: I'll grant you that keeping mages in the Circle for life will cause this, but letting them out an permanent basis risks abominations who are just that much worse due to the mage's training forming in population centers. I don't view this as anything like as dangerous as letting an untrained mage walk free, since they almost certainly won't turn, but if they do... Okay, I tryed. So: Each person can be dangerous. Each person is able to light a fire. Most of people able yield to the temptation. Very little percent of the mages becomes Abomination. Because of some danger, imprison them all is great sin. No other argument, and also not need other argument. And: Tevinter still exist. So: where are the mages, who accidentally destroyed the cities? A non-mage can be dangerous. Mages flatly are. They're the ones who have to deal with demons in their dreams, and while a demon will possess anyone or anything it's mages they want and mages who are the easiest for them to find. If most of them don't turn, any of them can. And that's not to get into the fact that mages are, in fact, mages. While I think it's the lesser argument, it's worth noting that if a mage chooses to do evil, he'll find he has more and better options open to him due to his powers. Mages are different in a way that makes them dangerous in a way the vast majority of mundanes can't even dream of. They can't stop being so short of being Tranquiled, and I think we've established that because a demon can trick its way in, they don't even need to choose to be dangerous. What I said was that they offer more choices to the mages who are too weak to be trusted to handle demonic temptation than Tevinter or the Avvar. Death or Tranquility is not a good choice, but it's all you can safely offer any mage who doesn't have enough potential to really be able to resist a demon, and it's a choice that Felix Alexius's grandfather wasn't willing to give him and that the Avvar's spirit gods don't give their mages. This argument isn't relevant to that, even if it does contain at least one valid criticism of the Circle system as it existed before Inquisition (namely, that the Templars were getting no real oversight; the two potential Divines in Inquisition who actually keep the Circle recognize that that was a flaw that needs correcting.)
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
18,242
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Oct 5, 2016 4:30:50 GMT
Okay, I tryed. So: Each person can be dangerous. Each person is able to light a fire. Most of people able yield to the temptation. Very little percent of the mages becomes Abomination. Because of some danger, imprison them all is great sin. No other argument, and also not need other argument. And: Tevinter still exist. So: where are the mages, who accidentally destroyed the cities? A non-mage can be dangerous. Mages flatly are. They're the ones who have to deal with demons in their dreams, and while a demon will possess anyone or anything it's mages they want and mages who are the easiest for them to find. If most of them don't turn, any of them can. And that's not to get into the fact that mages are, in fact, mages. While I think it's the lesser argument, it's worth noting that if a mage chooses to do evil, he'll find he has more and better options open to him due to his powers. What I said was that they offer more choices to the mages who are too weak to be trusted to handle demonic temptation than Tevinter or the Avvar. Death or Tranquility is not a good choice, but it's all you can safely offer any mage who doesn't have enough potential to really be able to resist a demon, and it's a choice that Felix Alexius's grandfather wasn't willing to give him and that the Avvar's spirit gods don't give their mages. This argument isn't relevant to that, even if it does contain at least one valid criticism of the Circle system as it existed before Inquisition (namely, that the Templars were getting no real oversight; the two potential Divines in Inquisition who actually keep the Circle recognize that that was a flaw that needs correcting.) The life is dangerous. The only solution would be if the mages would have privacy, family and freedom as everyone else. Punishment for what they have not committed: simply wrong. The imprisonment as prevention is not a solution. Leliana the best choice for Divine. Vivienne the worst. She really dangerous. Not because she is a mage, much more because she too much likes the Game and power, and she would receive an army to play. (But in your viewpoint, Vivienne can become a demon directed abomination on the Sunburst Throne... Nice, I like it!)
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
197
0
Deleted
0
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2016 4:39:58 GMT
A non-mage can be dangerous. Mages flatly are. They're the ones who have to deal with demons in their dreams, and while a demon will possess anyone or anything it's mages they want and mages who are the easiest for them to find. If most of them don't turn, any of them can. And that's not to get into the fact that mages are, in fact, mages. While I think it's the lesser argument, it's worth noting that if a mage chooses to do evil, he'll find he has more and better options open to him due to his powers. What I said was that they offer more choices to the mages who are too weak to be trusted to handle demonic temptation than Tevinter or the Avvar. Death or Tranquility is not a good choice, but it's all you can safely offer any mage who doesn't have enough potential to really be able to resist a demon, and it's a choice that Felix Alexius's grandfather wasn't willing to give him and that the Avvar's spirit gods don't give their mages. This argument isn't relevant to that, even if it does contain at least one valid criticism of the Circle system as it existed before Inquisition (namely, that the Templars were getting no real oversight; the two potential Divines in Inquisition who actually keep the Circle recognize that that was a flaw that needs correcting.) The life is dangerous. The only solution would be if the mages would have privacy, family and freedom as everyone else. Punishment for what they have not committed: simply wrong. The imprisonment as prevention is not a solution. Leliana the best choice for Divine. Vivienne the worst. She really dangerous. Not because she is a mage, much more because she too much likes the Game and power, and she would receive an army to play. (But in your viewpoint, Vivienne can become a demon directed abomination on the Sunburst Throne... Nice, I like it!) Which is why Vivienne is never Divine in my worldstate... Instead, Leliana is. Less to worry about with a non-mage divine..
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
18,242
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Oct 5, 2016 4:45:58 GMT
The life is dangerous. The only solution would be if the mages would have privacy, family and freedom as everyone else. Punishment for what they have not committed: simply wrong. The imprisonment as prevention is not a solution. Leliana the best choice for Divine. Vivienne the worst. She really dangerous. Not because she is a mage, much more because she too much likes the Game and power, and she would receive an army to play. (But in your viewpoint, Vivienne can become a demon directed abomination on the Sunburst Throne... Nice, I like it!) Which is why Vivienne is never Divine in my worldstate... Instead, Leliana is. Less to worry about with a non-mage apostate... Just on the Throne is a potential abomination... I think, you afraid from free mages, because they can become abomination. Vivienne is a mage, the worst kind! I just remind you If you can trust her, why you can't trust the other mages?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
197
0
Deleted
0
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2016 4:50:05 GMT
Which is why Vivienne is never Divine in my worldstate... Instead, Leliana is. Less to worry about with a non-mage apostate... Just on the Throne is a potential abomination... I think, you afraid from free mages, because they can become abomination. Vivienne is a mage, the worst kind! I just remind you If you can trust her, why you can trust the other mages? Uh huh, you do realize that Leliana does that, right? so don't lecture me, and plus Vivienne is a downright bitch who i'd never trust with it anyhow.
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
18,242
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Oct 5, 2016 4:51:41 GMT
Just on the Throne is a potential abomination... I think, you afraid from free mages, because they can become abomination. Vivienne is a mage, the worst kind! I just remind you If you can trust her, why you can trust the other mages? Uh huh, you do realize that Leliana does that, right? so don't lecture me, and plus Vivienne is a downright bitch who i'd never trust with it anyhow. Haha! I just very sleepy I not noticed the word: never! I not often use her in my group, but now I took her somewhere, and realize, she a bit annoying with Dorian and Bull. Yes, she is terrible. But I like her with Cole.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
197
0
Deleted
0
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2016 5:38:42 GMT
Uh huh, you do realize that Leliana does that, right? so don't lecture me, and plus Vivienne is a downright bitch who i'd never trust with it anyhow. Haha! I just very sleepy I not saw the word: never! I not often use her in my group, but now I took her somewhere, and realize, she a bit annoying with Dorian and Bull. Yes, she is terrible. But I like her with Cole. Eh, my hot-tempered Lavellan didn't hate her... he just didn't care for her, which is saying something, i think my Lavellan is one of those people that gets so angry, that someone has to drag him away before he shots a fireball or something of the sorts, lol.
|
|
inherit
1685
0
1,633
riverdaleswhiteflash
1,501
Sept 28, 2016 8:03:42 GMT
September 2016
riverdaleswhiteflash
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
|
Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Oct 5, 2016 6:26:39 GMT
A non-mage can be dangerous. Mages flatly are. They're the ones who have to deal with demons in their dreams, and while a demon will possess anyone or anything it's mages they want and mages who are the easiest for them to find. If most of them don't turn, any of them can. And that's not to get into the fact that mages are, in fact, mages. While I think it's the lesser argument, it's worth noting that if a mage chooses to do evil, he'll find he has more and better options open to him due to his powers. What I said was that they offer more choices to the mages who are too weak to be trusted to handle demonic temptation than Tevinter or the Avvar. Death or Tranquility is not a good choice, but it's all you can safely offer any mage who doesn't have enough potential to really be able to resist a demon, and it's a choice that Felix Alexius's grandfather wasn't willing to give him and that the Avvar's spirit gods don't give their mages. This argument isn't relevant to that, even if it does contain at least one valid criticism of the Circle system as it existed before Inquisition (namely, that the Templars were getting no real oversight; the two potential Divines in Inquisition who actually keep the Circle recognize that that was a flaw that needs correcting.) The life is dangerous. The only solution would be if the mages would have privacy, family and freedom as everyone else. Punishment for what they have not committed: simply wrong. The imprisonment as prevention is not a solution. Leliana the best choice for Divine. Vivienne the worst. She really dangerous. Not because she is a mage, much more because she too much likes the Game and power, and she would receive an army to play. (But in your viewpoint, Vivienne can become a demon directed abomination on the Sunburst Throne... Nice, I like it!) Mages aren't the same as everyone else, though. And the differences legitimately make them more dangerous than others. And while the danger can be limited, the only way to make them not at all dangerous is to basically fry their brains. If you can argue that imprisoning the mage is wrong, you can also argue that not even trying to limit the ease with which abominations form in population centers is even more so, and I prefer the Circle to Tranquility. I think I agree that Vivienne as Divine is a scary thought. Though I do think you're understating the extent to which her magic contributes to the danger she poses: it's not by any means her most powerful weapon anymore, and it arguably never was, but that doesn't make it weak or insignificant. The ability to casually freeze a swordsman in place from a range over which he couldn't hope to stab you will never be either. And you're right that she can, in fact, become an abomination, even if I think that she's about the last mage you'd expect to actually do that.
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
18,242
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Oct 5, 2016 6:37:39 GMT
The life is dangerous. The only solution would be if the mages would have privacy, family and freedom as everyone else. Punishment for what they have not committed: simply wrong. The imprisonment as prevention is not a solution. Leliana the best choice for Divine. Vivienne the worst. She really dangerous. Not because she is a mage, much more because she too much likes the Game and power, and she would receive an army to play. (But in your viewpoint, Vivienne can become a demon directed abomination on the Sunburst Throne... Nice, I like it!) Mages aren't the same as everyone else, though. And the differences legitimately make them more dangerous than others. And while the danger can be limited, the only way to make them not at all dangerous is to basically fry their brains. If you can argue that imprisoning the mage is wrong, you can also argue that not even trying to limit the ease with which abominations form in population centers is even more so, and I prefer the Circle to Tranquility. I think I agree that Vivienne as Divine is a scary thought. Though I do think you're understating the extent to which her magic contributes to the danger she poses: it's not by any means her most powerful weapon anymore, and it arguably never was, but that doesn't make it weak or insignificant. The ability to casually freeze a swordsman in place from a range over which he couldn't hope to stab you will never be either. And you're right that she can, in fact, become an abomination, even if I think that she's about the last mage you'd expect to actually do that.Most of the mages is much less dangerous than Vivienne, the rest of them just as much as she, not more. If Vivienne can live in free, and can get power, the others also deserve that.
|
|
inherit
1685
0
1,633
riverdaleswhiteflash
1,501
Sept 28, 2016 8:03:42 GMT
September 2016
riverdaleswhiteflash
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
|
Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Oct 5, 2016 8:36:33 GMT
Mages aren't the same as everyone else, though. And the differences legitimately make them more dangerous than others. And while the danger can be limited, the only way to make them not at all dangerous is to basically fry their brains. If you can argue that imprisoning the mage is wrong, you can also argue that not even trying to limit the ease with which abominations form in population centers is even more so, and I prefer the Circle to Tranquility. I think I agree that Vivienne as Divine is a scary thought. Though I do think you're understating the extent to which her magic contributes to the danger she poses: it's not by any means her most powerful weapon anymore, and it arguably never was, but that doesn't make it weak or insignificant. The ability to casually freeze a swordsman in place from a range over which he couldn't hope to stab you will never be either. And you're right that she can, in fact, become an abomination, even if I think that she's about the last mage you'd expect to actually do that.Most of the mages is much less dangerous than Vivienne, the rest of them just as much as she, not more. If Vivienne can live in free, and can get power, the others also deserve that. If you just mean how ruthless she is and how much raw power she has, I'm not sure you're wrong. But by just about every other metric, there's at least one worse mage out there, even if we don't count surviving ancient mages and those trained by them. (Which I imagine you weren't. And given how impossibly dangerous those mages seem to be and how far out of left field they are I don't think we should.) She seems to really buy the White Chantry's prohibition on blood magic and demon summoning. Right off the bat that means that her opposite number in Minrathous is able to draw on more power than she is, by drawing on a power source that works best by draining people's life out. So between his greater power and the fact that he might be inclined to drain someone to death for power, he's dangerous in two ways Vivienne doesn't seem to be... and since he got to the top of the Black Chantry, he's probably dangerous in every way she is too. Otherwise, he'd be dead. Depending on whether the Black Divine is inclined to summon demons, he might be able to draw on yet more power at a serious risk of being possessed. And either way, there are mages in Tevinter who do summon demons. Another mage who is almost certainly more powerful than she is (without being one of the unfair ancient mages) is Archon Radonis of Tevinter. He's also sitting at the top of the pile in Tevinter, so that requires him to be dangerous in every way the Black Divine is. And if you don't count Tevinter mages, the apostates that actually use blood magic are out in the world actually using blood magic. The ones who use demons are actually using demons. And that's not counting all of the weak mages who are prime candidates for possession. Though to get back to your larger point that Vivienne shouldn't be trusted with power, that's also not necessarily something I disagree with.
|
|
Iakus
N7
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 20,887 Likes: 49,356
inherit
402
0
Dec 21, 2018 17:35:11 GMT
49,356
Iakus
20,887
August 2016
iakus
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Iakus on Oct 5, 2016 15:05:23 GMT
1a: I don't think that answered my argument. In fact, I think my argument answered that. How do you think a demon is going to disguise itself in a way that allows it to persuade someone paranoid about disguised demons trying to possess her... that it should possess her the way she's paranoid a demon will? And even if that's possible, why do you think that that's easier than possessing someone who's not paranoid about exactly what the demon's trying to do? 1b: Well, demons don't visit him in his dreams. So that's one major way he's less dangerous than a mage. Also he can't light fires with a snap of his fingers. If his political power makes more dangerous than the Circle mages, a mage with his political powers would be in balance more dangerous than he is. 2a: The point is, the Tevinter system of dealing with the weak mages who could more easily become an abomination seems to involve just killing them. At least the White Circles give them a choice between death and Tranquility, even if that's not much of a choice. Meanwhile the Avvar system for dealing with potential abominations is for the spirits that they worship as gods to kill such weak mages in their sleep. You want freedom? Of the three systems for dealing with weak mages that easily come to mind, the Circle offers them the most freedom to choose their fate.2b: Yes, but the point is that if all the mages are trapped in the Circles, it's a lot easier to stop the mages from practicing human sacrifice and slavery. If the mages are let free, it's practically inevitable that the powerful and amoral ones will gain power. There's other ways to stop that, but the Circle system does that and creates a place outside of the general population that is more likely to survive an abomination for an abomination to form in. 3: I'll grant you that keeping mages in the Circle for life will cause this, but letting them out an permanent basis risks abominations who are just that much worse due to the mage's training forming in population centers. I don't view this as anything like as dangerous as letting an untrained mage walk free, since they almost certainly won't turn, but if they do... Okay, I tryed. So: Each person can be dangerous. Each person is able to light a fire. Most of people able yield to the temptation. Very little percent of the mages becomes Abomination. Because of some danger, imprison them all is great sin. No other argument, and also not need other argument. And: Tevinter still exist. So: where are the mages, who accidentally destroyed the cities? More choices offers the Circles? What? Death or zombie mode life and life imprisonment? More slap, or rather to lick the Templars ass to clean? Don't forget: the Templars can brutalize mages without any consequences. This is the part of the Circle system. (Be apostate is not the Circles' offer, its the one real CHOICE.) The whole Circle system is wrong: cruel, but dangerous and inefficient. "Dangerous!" cried Gandalf. "And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord. And Aragorn is dangerous, and Legolas is dangerous. You are beset with dangers, Gimli son of Glóin; for you are dangerous yourself, in your own fashion." But the thing about mages is it's not just the temptation to use their magic for evil purposes. It's the far more insidious temptation to let a demon in. To become a monster unaware. One slip, and its hooks are in you. Remember how Wynne was worried she had allowed herself to become an abomination when the spirit of Faith began to sustain her life? One thing about Tevinter, though. It's a very cutthroat (literally) place for mages. Perhaps the "weaker" mages are weeded out early? Heck it could even be part of their mage eugenics program. Templars should not be allowed to brutalize mages. And if there is one positive thing that can be said about Vivienne as Divine is she keeps them on a much shorter leash (in addition to granting mages more freedom)
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
18,242
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Oct 5, 2016 15:24:57 GMT
Okay, I tryed. So: Each person can be dangerous. Each person is able to light a fire. Most of people able yield to the temptation. Very little percent of the mages becomes Abomination. Because of some danger, imprison them all is great sin. No other argument, and also not need other argument. And: Tevinter still exist. So: where are the mages, who accidentally destroyed the cities? More choices offers the Circles? What? Death or zombie mode life and life imprisonment? More slap, or rather to lick the Templars ass to clean? Don't forget: the Templars can brutalize mages without any consequences. This is the part of the Circle system. (Be apostate is not the Circles' offer, its the one real CHOICE.) The whole Circle system is wrong: cruel, but dangerous and inefficient. "Dangerous!" cried Gandalf. "And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord. And Aragorn is dangerous, and Legolas is dangerous. You are beset with dangers, Gimli son of Glóin; for you are dangerous yourself, in your own fashion." But the thing about mages is it's not just the temptation to use their magic for evil purposes. It's the far more insidious temptation to let a demon in. To become a monster unaware. One slip, and its hooks are in you. Remember how Wynne was worried she had allowed herself to become an abomination when the spirit of Faith began to sustain her life? One thing about Tevinter, though. It's a very cutthroat (literally) place for mages. Perhaps the "weaker" mages are weeded out early? Heck it could even be part of their mage eugenics program.Templars should not be allowed to brutalize mages. And if there is one positive thing that can be said about Vivienne as Divine is she keeps them on a much shorter leash (in addition to granting mages more freedom) This is no explanation as to why they did not destroy their cities, if the become Abomination is a kind of accident ... Or the bred Tevinter mages are immun to temptation? Hardly I can imagine. Much more imaginable, that they studied the Fade's creatures' nature deeper than the Chantry allow to the Circle mages. Don't forget: Tevinter can handle the dreamers, I think in the Circle just tranqulize the dreamer suspicious mages. True, I don't know, what price was paid for this knowledge.
|
|
Iakus
N7
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 20,887 Likes: 49,356
inherit
402
0
Dec 21, 2018 17:35:11 GMT
49,356
Iakus
20,887
August 2016
iakus
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Iakus on Oct 5, 2016 15:30:52 GMT
"Dangerous!" cried Gandalf. "And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord. And Aragorn is dangerous, and Legolas is dangerous. You are beset with dangers, Gimli son of Glóin; for you are dangerous yourself, in your own fashion." But the thing about mages is it's not just the temptation to use their magic for evil purposes. It's the far more insidious temptation to let a demon in. To become a monster unaware. One slip, and its hooks are in you. Remember how Wynne was worried she had allowed herself to become an abomination when the spirit of Faith began to sustain her life? One thing about Tevinter, though. It's a very cutthroat (literally) place for mages. Perhaps the "weaker" mages are weeded out early? Heck it could even be part of their mage eugenics program.Templars should not be allowed to brutalize mages. And if there is one positive thing that can be said about Vivienne as Divine is she keeps them on a much shorter leash (in addition to granting mages more freedom) This is no explanation as to why they did not destroy their cities, if the become Abomination is a kind of accident ... Or the bred Tevinter mages are immun to temptation? Hardly I can imagine. Much more imaginable, that they studied the Fade's creatures' nature deeper than the Chantry allow to the Circle mages. Don't forget: Tevinter can handle the dreamers, I think in the Circle just tranqulize the dreamer suspicious mages. I was actually comparing Tevinter to the Avvar. Among the Avvar, the spirits that "guide" their mages kill the weak ones in their sleep. Perhaps in Tevinter, the weak ones die in "accidents" or are killed in duels, or have other lethal misadventures early on.
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
18,242
Catilina
11,030
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Oct 5, 2016 15:34:33 GMT
This is no explanation as to why they did not destroy their cities, if the become Abomination is a kind of accident ... Or the bred Tevinter mages are immun to temptation? Hardly I can imagine. Much more imaginable, that they studied the Fade's creatures' nature deeper than the Chantry allow to the Circle mages. Don't forget: Tevinter can handle the dreamers, I think in the Circle just tranqulize the dreamer suspicious mages. I was actually comparing Tevinter to the Avvar. Among the Avvar, the spirits that "guide" their mages kill the weak ones in their sleep. Perhaps in Tevinter, the weak ones die in "accidents" or are killed in duels, or have other lethal misadventures early on. Probably this is the price for the knowledge. I think, better, than the Circle's lifetime torture. But the weak mages have similar fate also in the Circle...
|
|