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Post by Iakus on Oct 5, 2016 15:38:50 GMT
I was actually comparing Tevinter to the Avvar. Among the Avvar, the spirits that "guide" their mages kill the weak ones in their sleep. Perhaps in Tevinter, the weak ones die in "accidents" or are killed in duels, or have other lethal misadventures early on. Probably this is the price for the knowledge. I think, better, than the Circle's lifetime torture. Yeah. I think I'd rather have the life where, in theory, NO ONE has the right to murder or brutalize me for being a mage.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 5, 2016 15:42:50 GMT
Probably this is the price for the knowledge. I think, better, than the Circle's lifetime torture. Yeah. I think I'd rather have the life where, in theory, NO ONE has the right to murder or brutalize me for being a mage. But the weak mages have similar fate also in the Circle... And I don't wrote about the mad Templars, only the lifelong confinement, for nothing. I think this is enough torture for many innocent people.
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Post by Iakus on Oct 5, 2016 15:54:30 GMT
Yeah. I think I'd rather have the life where, in theory, NO ONE has the right to murder or brutalize me for being a mage. But the weak mages have similar fate also in the Circle... And I don't wrote about the mad Templars, only the lifelong confinement, for nothing. I think this is enough torture for many innocent people. Weak mages are not murdered in their sleep in the Circle. And to me, if you take brutal Templars out of the equation, Circle mages have a pretty sweet life. Free room and board. Free education. The ability to practice magic without fear of a lynch mob. With the First Enchanter's permission, you can even leave and pursue other activities. Far cry better than peasant life. Especially in more downtrodden lands like Orlais.
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Post by midasear on Oct 5, 2016 16:32:15 GMT
Tevinter's system might have found a way to make abominations less plentiful. They do this at the cost of slaughtering weak mages, whereas I at least think mages should have a choice between the Harrowing and being Tranquilized. I've got to interject that I find speculation about how the Tevinter deal with abominations to be sort of amusing. If you've played through the games, read the codex entries, and talked to Fenris & Dorian, its fairly obvious that many, if not most, Tevinter mages engage in blood magic, and the more powerful they are the more likely they are to be using human sacrifice to fuel that power. So the real question is this: If a Tevinter mage became an abomination, how would anyone be able to tell the difference?
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Post by xerrai on Oct 5, 2016 16:43:05 GMT
Probably this is the price for the knowledge. I think, better, than the Circle's lifetime torture. Yeah. I think I'd rather have the life where, in theory, NO ONE has the right to murder or brutalize me for being a mage. Most weak mages are killed one way or another, regardless of the system. If you fail the harrowing in the Circle, you are killed. If you failed to meet the Avaar's qualifications, you go to sleep and never wake up. If you are of weak in any form in Tevinter, you will probably be killed by your peers. If a Keeper becomes possessed, the clan is obligated to hunt it down. In general the basic result is the same, but it takes on different forms. The main question is weather those methods, if any, are actually efficient at reducing the population of abominations. Another is if those systems actually increase or decrease the probability of allowing a 'weak' mage to live--or if it even should.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 5, 2016 17:33:58 GMT
But the weak mages have similar fate also in the Circle... And I don't wrote about the mad Templars, only the lifelong confinement, for nothing. I think this is enough torture for many innocent people. Weak mages are not murdered in their sleep in the Circle. And to me, if you take brutal Templars out of the equation, Circle mages have a pretty sweet life. Free room and board. Free education. The ability to practice magic without fear of a lynch mob. With the First Enchanter's permission, you can even leave and pursue other activities. Far cry better than peasant life. Especially in more downtrodden lands like Orlais. Weak mages tranquilized in the Circle, or killed, I think: not so much different. Permission to leave: not freedom. Golden cage: not freedom. Not mentioned: what happen with the cities, if a mage got a permission for temporary leave? This mage can be abomination "accidentally", and destroy the city and kill all innocent people... huh! Peasants have life, most of the mages don't. Not mentioned: so much slaves lives better life, than the peasants or the elves in the Alienage. So: the slavery is good.
So many people can make bombs, and destroy a whole city... why dont imprisoned the people, who able to make bombs, before s/he start thinking about the destroy of the cities? So many people can use a weapon, or stronger than his/her neighbor: all lives matter, why not imprisoned the strong people, before s/he kill his/her neighbor? For example. So many people uses dangerous tools, and enough a little attention break, and catastrophe happens...
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Post by opuspace on Oct 5, 2016 17:54:46 GMT
But the weak mages have similar fate also in the Circle... And I don't wrote about the mad Templars, only the lifelong confinement, for nothing. I think this is enough torture for many innocent people. Weak mages are not murdered in their sleep in the Circle. And to me, if you take brutal Templars out of the equation, Circle mages have a pretty sweet life. Free room and board. Free education. The ability to practice magic without fear of a lynch mob. With the First Enchanter's permission, you can even leave and pursue other activities. Far cry better than peasant life. Especially in more downtrodden lands like Orlais. No thanks, the education would be great but the thought of being trapped in one place staring at the same walls for years on years would drive me nuts. Solipsism would settle in, books would lose their stimulation, depression would smother out any pleasure. I've had moments of being trapped at home financially and even though it was comfortable, it was hellish. Comfort =\= happiness. EDIT: Also, getting permission to leave like the way you ask a teacher for a hall pass would be extremely damaging to my self confidence in my own ability. I'd like to be trusted to walk to the market for bagels and pastries and be back without being treated like a brain damaged child. I know that's not the intention, but a mage's control most certainly can be affected by whether they're treated as adults or children.
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Post by Walter Black on Oct 5, 2016 19:26:04 GMT
One thing I've noticed is how personal Mage fans can take these games; most RPGs are power fantasies, and players naturally want whatever they feel makes their characters more powerful. So naturally, they associate Chantry restrictions with restrictions on *them*. Thing is, had they been born in Thedas, there is no guarantee that they would be Mages. Quite the reverse, if the Law of Averages is to be believed. Do they ever stop to consider the concerns of mundanes, or simply dismiss them since they're "boring" and "not special enough"? I get the fantasy, I play Mages all the time. But I've become bored with protagonists who are heroes because of some random genetic quirk and/or touch of destiny, rather than something they accomplished through their own hard work.
Let's try something different, ignoring the obvious Abomination and Blood Mage arguements: imagine you work in a construction firm that has been trying to get a contract to build a fort. Two or three Mages get the contract and complete the building for less money, and your crew and their families starve. Should you have no legal recourse?
It should be noted than when David Gaider started outlining the original Dragon Age bible, much of the lore was in response to things he hated in most Dungeons & Dragons style RPGs. For instance, that there was little defense for the average person if a magic user casted "Charm Person" to make them like the caster.
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Post by mikoto on Oct 5, 2016 19:29:22 GMT
1. Within the context of the DA universe, why do you prefer Templars or Mages?
Both have their purposes, however I prefer the mages and tend to use magic/be mages in all fantasy settings.
2. Is it simply preference, or do you actively dislike the other? If so, what specifically do you hate?
Part of it is simply preference, I greatly enjoy using magic both damage dealing an healing in my characters and enjoy the mage/magic lore of different settings. I make warrior characters too since I do enjoy swords/shields too. However in the DA setting I quite strongly dislike the Templar Order and what it stands for. Thedas' mages do need a Templar-like set of warriors to protect mundanes but it definately should not be tied in with religion-specifically the Chantry which regards magic as a curse. Templars shouldn't be prison wardens either. The addiction to lyrium should most definately not be handled by the Chantry. The Circle System before Inquisition was wrong and foul.
3. Have you played both? If yes, did it give you any new insight? If not, why?
I experimented a little with the Templar options a little in Acts 1 and 2 with one of my mundane Hawkes in DA2 but other than that, haven't tried supporting the Templars. It didn't really offer me anything new except to really show me the depths of Templar belief in the dangers of mages.
For the Mage fans:
4. Many Mage fans have likened the Circle to various forms of real world discrimination. Yet, like mutants in X-Men, magic in Dragon Age gives a clear inborn advantage to those with over those without. Being able to shoot fire or control minds is NOT the same as having a different skin color or sexuality. This false equivalency can give the impression of "they're just holding us down because we really are better than they are". How do you address this imbalance?
My solution to the 'mage problem' in Thedas would be to have schools, colleges and universities devoted to learning and magic all over the country in every major city where mages would attend them as mandatory schools for education and training. Some could have a boarding-school like system for mages from isolated little hamlets or whatever. But mage children wouldn't be denied family, title or lineage for having been born with magic. The Harrowing would be a kind of graduation test once they'd reached adulthood and completed their mandatory studies. After that the mage would be free to either stay and study further or return to a normal life or family.
But the Templars would also play a vital role in my solution. There would be Templars at all the mage places of learning and a contingent of Templars alongside the regular police/guardsmen/armies present in society. They would serve as the 'mage police' to manage potential magical dangers such as abominations. Even small villages would have two or three Templars stationed there with means to be able to summon more from a larger town or city if need be. Their lyrium would have to be paid for by a combination of the Chantry, nobles and taxes overseen by the country's authority system since the Templars and Guardsmen are providing a needed community service.
Naturally abominations or criminal mages would be investigated and dealt with appropriately.
5. Mage fans can often treat magic the same as superpowers, completely ignoring it's context within DA lore; i.e., the necessity of lyrium and/or blood, how it can weaken the Veil, and the constant threat of demonic possession. They rationalize that since as Players they can easily avoid such pratfalls, everyone should be able to. This dismisses that Player Characters are always given agency that most NPCs never have, or that entitled players would whine if they where subject to the same restrictions. Your response?
I think I've already answered in my response above. Those that do wrong or fall foul get the Templar Guardsmen after them.
6. When asked how they would protect the average citizen from magical abuse, several of the most common answers have huge holes:
A. "Mages and Templars will work together". That might work in a more idealized and black and white setting, but Dragon Age is an adult story with complex characters and black and grey conflicts.
B. "Mages will protect mundanes". Even getting past how patronizing this sounds, as if those without magic are helpless children, this position is illogical due to normals outnumbering Mages 100 to 1. By the time your Mage Cop got to a town being terrorized by a Blood Mage or Abomination, it would be too late.
C. "Normals and Mages will stay away from each other". Ignoring the moral implications of how segregation only reinforces ignorance and hatred, eventually expanding populations competing for resources will bring everyone right back right where they started.
Again, answered in the question above. Equal treatment with Guardsmen/women with Templar abilities to control mage criminals.
D. "I don't care about average joes, I play fantasy RPGs to imagine myself among special people". That's potentially valid for a personal story, but it's crap world building and breaks immersion for the rest of us.
E. "Mundanes don't deserve protection! They've kept us down for too long, are now they're going too pay!" Hey, I'm all for allowing Players to become the Villain if they choose. Just don't expect the rest of the world to accept it just because you are the Protagonist.
How would you address these issues?
I don't feel that way.
7. Most likely we will be going to Tevinter in DA4, where Mages rule. Will you still help the oppressed underdog and give mundanes a leg up in the Imperium, or preserve the status quo for "Mage Power"?
Of course! If there's a way to make mages and mundanes equal to each other under a fair system in Tevinter, I'll sure go for it!
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Post by Cantina on Oct 5, 2016 19:59:29 GMT
1. Within the context of the DA universe, why do you prefer Templars or Mages?
Mages
2. Is it simply preference, or do you actively dislike the other? If so, what specifically do you hate?
There are only a few Templars I ( my character) could with stand and respect, but that is not many. I don't like the Templars because they seem to think its OK to abuse mages- psychically or mentally. I don't entirely blame them for their actions. The person who should be blamed is the Divine. Furthermore using Andraste's words as leash and to blame mages is ludicrous.
3. Have you played both? If yes, did it give you any new insight? If not, why?
LOL! No. Its been years and I still do not have the achievements unlocked for siding with the Templars in DA2. I never do, "Champions of the Just" in DAI/" I always side with the Mages and will continue to do so.
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Post by Sah291 on Oct 5, 2016 20:31:47 GMT
One thing I've noticed is how personal Mage fans can take these games; most RPGs are power fantasies, and players naturally want whatever they feel makes their characters more powerful. So naturally, they associate Chantry restrictions with restrictions on *them*. Thing is, had they been born in Thedas, there is no guarantee that they would be Mages. Quite the reverse, if the Law of Averages is to be believed. Do they ever stop to consider the concerns of mundanes, or simply dismiss them since they're "boring" and "not special enough"? I get the fantasy, I play Mages all the time. But I've become bored with protagonists who are heroes because of some random genetic quirk and/or touch of destiny, rather than something they accomplished through their own hard work. Let's try something different, ignoring the obvious Abomination and Blood Mage arguements: imagine you work in a construction firm that has been trying to get a contract to build a fort. Two or three Mages get the contract and complete the building for less money, and your crew and their families starve. Should you have no legal recourse? It should be noted than when David Gaider started outlining the original Dragon Age bible, much of the lore was in response to things he hated in most Dungeons & Dragons style RPGs. For instance, that there was little defense for the average person if a magic user casted "Charm Person" to make them like the caster. Well, back in the DAO days, magic was depicted as much more realistic. Thedas had realistic fears and superstitions about mages, and mages had limits to what they could do. For instance, you couldn't use magic to teleport, or bring people back from the dead, or some of the other hyper powered things mages are doing now. So now it's not just about mages versus non mages, but the whole idea of the mage god-king versus everyone else, with super human and immortal powers (which is what Corypheus and the Ancient Elves were). I don't think it's quite fair to judge all mages by that standard. But yes, when the main villians are god kings, it makes the player want to play a character powerful or special, because who could possibly stand up to that? Back in the DA2 era, Hawke was just regular refugee, but the villians weren't all that special either. In DAO, Loghain was powerful, but just a man. I guess what I'm saying is, there might be an issue of power creep at this point, if they aren't careful.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 5, 2016 20:46:26 GMT
The whole discussion is based on the treatment of magic in the story. Not very logical, as I see. I feel, that the writers themselves do not really know what to do with it. We can hope to find out sometime in the future. I'm curious.
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Post by Iakus on Oct 5, 2016 20:53:01 GMT
Weak mages are not murdered in their sleep in the Circle. And to me, if you take brutal Templars out of the equation, Circle mages have a pretty sweet life. Free room and board. Free education. The ability to practice magic without fear of a lynch mob. With the First Enchanter's permission, you can even leave and pursue other activities. Far cry better than peasant life. Especially in more downtrodden lands like Orlais. No thanks, the education would be great but the thought of being trapped in one place staring at the same walls for years on years would drive me nuts. Solipsism would settle in, books would lose their stimulation, depression would smother out any pleasure. I've had moments of being trapped at home financially and even though it was comfortable, it was hellish. Comfort =\= happiness. EDIT: Also, getting permission to leave like the way you ask a teacher for a hall pass would be extremely damaging to my self confidence in my own ability. I'd like to be trusted to walk to the market for bagels and pastries and be back without being treated like a brain damaged child. I know that's not the intention, but a mage's control most certainly can be affected by whether they're treated as adults or children. Well, given Vivienne has a suite at the palace and semi-permanent living quarters Duke Bastien's place, I think permission from the First Enchanter means more freedom than a simple hall pass or personal day Frankly, it sounds less like mages are treated as children, and more like they have a dormant, but potentially very dangerous medical condition. As long as they can be trusted to take care of themselves and check in with their doctor ever so often, they can go about their lives. In theory at least.
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Post by Cantina on Oct 5, 2016 21:06:26 GMT
No thanks, the education would be great but the thought of being trapped in one place staring at the same walls for years on years would drive me nuts. Solipsism would settle in, books would lose their stimulation, depression would smother out any pleasure. I've had moments of being trapped at home financially and even though it was comfortable, it was hellish. Comfort =\= happiness. EDIT: Also, getting permission to leave like the way you ask a teacher for a hall pass would be extremely damaging to my self confidence in my own ability. I'd like to be trusted to walk to the market for bagels and pastries and be back without being treated like a brain damaged child. I know that's not the intention, but a mage's control most certainly can be affected by whether they're treated as adults or children. Well, given Vivienne has a suite at the palace and semi-permanent living quarters Duke Bastien's place, I think permission from the First Enchanter means more freedom than a simple hall pass or personal day Frankly, it sounds less like mages are treated as children, and more like they have a dormant, but potentially very dangerous medical condition. As long as they can be trusted to take care of themselves and check in with their doctor ever so often, they can go about their lives. In theory at least. True. Furthermore The Harrowiong is a complete joke. Not to mention the Tranquil. If I was a mage, I'd rather just be killed then be a walking emotionless shell. Here's how I see it:
The Harrowing was actually created as a means of The Chantry showing their control over the mages. You pass, well good for you. You fail, you die, The Chantry wins. You choose to be made tranquil and The Chantry wins again.
Funny how The Chantry preaches about how dangerous magic is when: Templars use magic to deal with mages, The Chantry uses tranquil to bring in the biggest source of their income and as we find out in DAI Seekers not only use magic but can be considered abominations bu the laws of The Chantry. The list goes on. I really wish in DAI you could say, "Sod, The Chantry and just let it fall." But I suppose putting Lilly as Divine and allowing the mages to be free is good enough for me.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Oct 5, 2016 21:17:45 GMT
"Dangerous!" cried Gandalf. "And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord. And Aragorn is dangerous, and Legolas is dangerous. You are beset with dangers, Gimli son of Glóin; for you are dangerous yourself, in your own fashion." But the thing about mages is it's not just the temptation to use their magic for evil purposes. It's the far more insidious temptation to let a demon in. To become a monster unaware. One slip, and its hooks are in you. Remember how Wynne was worried she had allowed herself to become an abomination when the spirit of Faith began to sustain her life? One thing about Tevinter, though. It's a very cutthroat (literally) place for mages. Perhaps the "weaker" mages are weeded out early? Heck it could even be part of their mage eugenics program.Templars should not be allowed to brutalize mages. And if there is one positive thing that can be said about Vivienne as Divine is she keeps them on a much shorter leash (in addition to granting mages more freedom) This is no explanation as to why they did not destroy their cities, if the become Abomination is a kind of accident ... Or the bred Tevinter mages are immun to temptation? Hardly I can imagine. Much more imaginable, that they studied the Fade's creatures' nature deeper than the Chantry allow to the Circle mages. Don't forget: Tevinter can handle the dreamers, I think in the Circle just tranqulize the dreamer suspicious mages. True, I don't know, what price was paid for this knowledge. You keep representing studying the Fade's creatures as an alternative to killing or Tranquilizing mages. What is your evidence that that works that way? What is your evidence that Tevinter doesn't just kill weak mages? Weak mages tranquilized in the Circle, or killed, I think: not so much different.[/quote] It's not a good choice, but I don't think I've seen any evidence that weak mages can safely be given a better one. And you have yet to answer the point that it seems to be more than any other system for dealing with weak mages offers. It is entirely possible for mages to go abomination during temporary leave. But between the fact that most mages already don't go abomination, the fact that trained and Harrowed mages rarely do unless they do something stupid, and the fact that the leave is temporary, it's not much to worry about. Or if it is, why are you trying to make the Circle stop being mandatory after the Harrowing? If letting mages leave temporarily is a problem, why do you want them to be able to leave permanently? [/i]So many people can make bombs, and destroy a whole city... why dont imprisoned the people, who able to make bombs, before s/he start thinking about the destroy of the cities? So many people can use a weapon, or stronger than his/her neighbor: all lives matter, why not imprisoned the strong people, before s/he kill his/her neighbor? For example. So many people uses dangerous tools, and enough a little attention break, and catastrophe happens... [/quote] It's a question of how easily they can slip up and cause a disaster, versus how serious such a disaster would be. Most people using dangerous tools need to keep their concentration up for as long as that tool is in their hand, or they'll hurt themselves. Maybe others, with a really dangerous tool. A mage needs to keep their attention up all the time, or they are a danger to many others. I've been pounding on the "whole cities have been lost to these monsters" bit on the Codex and the Redcliffe disaster, but some relatively minor abominations that form in civilian areas only do stuff like killing seventy people in one go.
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Post by Iakus on Oct 5, 2016 21:19:19 GMT
Well, given Vivienne has a suite at the palace and semi-permanent living quarters Duke Bastien's place, I think permission from the First Enchanter means more freedom than a simple hall pass or personal day Frankly, it sounds less like mages are treated as children, and more like they have a dormant, but potentially very dangerous medical condition. As long as they can be trusted to take care of themselves and check in with their doctor ever so often, they can go about their lives. In theory at least. True. Furthermore The Harrowiong is a complete joke. Not to mention the Tranquil. If I was a mage, I'd rather just be killed then be a walking emotionless shell. Here's how I see it:
The Harrowing was actually created as a means of The Chantry showing their control over the mages. You pass, well good for you. You fail, you die, The Chantry wins. You choose to be made tranquil and The Chantry wins again.
Funny how The Chantry preaches about how dangerous magic is when: Templars use magic to deal with mages, The Chantry uses tranquil to bring in the biggest source of their income and as we find out in DAI Seekers not only use magic but can be considered abominations bu the laws of The Chantry. The list goes on. I really wish in DAI you could say, "Sod, The Chantry and just let it fall." But I suppose putting Lilly as Divine and allowing the mages to be free is good enough for me. The Harrowing is extreme, but serves a purpose. It demonstrates the mage has the presence of mind to resist at least a minor demon. But frankly I don't care for tests with that extreme a pass/fail margin, if you catch my drift. The Rite of Tranquility was actually meant to be an alternative to killing weak mages. Having it available is supposed to be a BENEFIT. Granted it turns out this is a case of teh cure being worse than the disease, but it is quite clear that it was not originally intended to be a form of punishment. ANd technically isn't supposed to be used that way now. Justinia was actually trying to find an alternative to Tranquility. Pity that went off the rails, but the cure is intriguing and may be a route to something better for everyone. I'm not sure how to qualify Templar abilities. Technically it is magic but it's function is more anti-magic. They reinforce "reality" as Cole puts it. Seekers are not abominations. They aren't even possessed. A spirit touches their mind, that is all.
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Post by Beerfish on Oct 5, 2016 21:25:02 GMT
I'm always curious as to why people pick certain positions in fandom, and few in Dragon Age are as polarizing as Mages versus Templars. Just for fun, I'd like to gage why fans picked their respective team here, and how they respond to critics and divergent storylines.
1. Within the context of the DA universe, why do you prefer Templars or Mages?
2. Is it simply preference, or do you actively dislike the other? If so, what specifically do you hate?
3. Have you played both? If yes, did it give you any new insight? If not, why?
For the Mage fans:
4. Many Mage fans have likened the Circle to various forms of real world discrimination. Yet, like mutants in X-Men, magic in Dragon Age gives a clear inborn advantage to those with over those without. Being able to shoot fire or control minds is NOT the same as having a different skin color or sexuality. This false equivalency can give the impression of "they're just holding us down because we really are better than they are". How do you address this imbalance?
5. Mage fans can often treat magic the same as superpowers, completely ignoring it's context within DA lore; i.e., the necessity of lyrium and/or blood, how it can weaken the Veil, and the constant threat of demonic possession. They rationalize that since as Players they can easily avoid such pratfalls, everyone should be able to. This dismisses that Player Characters are always given agency that most NPCs never have, or that entitled players would whine if they where subject to the same restrictions. Your response?
6. When asked how they would protect the average citizen from magical abuse, several of the most common answers have huge holes:
A. "Mages and Templars will work together". That might work in a more idealized and black and white setting, but Dragon Age is an adult story with complex characters and black and grey conflicts.
B. "Mages will protect mundanes". Even getting past how patronizing this sounds, as if those without magic are helpless children, this position is illogical due to normals outnumbering Mages 100 to 1. By the time your Mage Cop got to a town being terrorized by a Blood Mage or Abomination, it would be too late.
C. "Normals and Mages will stay away from each other". Ignoring the moral implications of how segregation only reinforces ignorance and hatred, eventually expanding populations competing for resources will bring everyone right back right where they started.
D. "I don't care about average joes, I play fantasy RPGs to imagine myself among special people". That's potentially valid for a personal story, but it's crap world building and breaks immersion for the rest of us.
E. "Mundanes don't deserve protection! They've kept us down for too long, are now they're going too pay!" Hey, I'm all for allowing Players to become the Villain if they choose. Just don't expect the rest of the world to accept it just because you are the Protagonist.
How would you address these issues?
7. Most likely we will be going to Tevinter in DA4, where Mages rule. Will you still help the oppressed underdog and give mundanes a leg up in the Imperium, or preserve the status quo for "Mage Power"?
For the Templar fans:
8. Protecting normals from magical abuse is good, but many Templar fans refuse to see the benefit of magical research and development to make the world a better place. Technology, medicine, agriculture, or even *gasp* magic itself? Newsflash guys, Mages don't want to get possessed anymore more than you do . But since even the smallest Magical R&D is forbidden in the South, how are they supposed to make meaningful contributions to society? Funny how Templar fans forget how one of their best defenses against mental domination, the Litany of Adralla, came from Tevinter .
9. Templar fans agree with the Chantry's position of discouraging Mage couples and stealing their children under the reasoning that the Mages would breed more Mages than they could handle. How do you still justify this when, within the lore this did not happen in Tevinter? Yeah, even with their obsession with magical eugenics, Mages are still the minority in the Imperium.
10. I know this is a stretch, but with Templar opposition magical research and families, do you ever consider that you could very well be holding back humanity from evolving to the next step?
11. Most importantly, in addition to magic a lot of Templar fans have issues with non human races, spirits, and the Fade. Fantasy concepts in a fantasy world. I agree that for variety's sake, there should be more reality based RPGs; i.e. cops and robbers, soldiers and spies, etcetera. But if you hate fantasy so much, why are you even here ? 1) I views this situation not from the mages or the templars point of view but from the point of view of the common man, baron, bann, peasant, villager. Mages who are not controlled in a rigid manner can be a dangerous menace, do I feel sympathy for them? Yes. But that all goes away when I hear about or experience a mage going boffo. 2) Both have good and bad apples but as in #1 it is not about the mages or the templars it is about the other 99.5% of the population. 3) Yes I play both in every game and take each side in every game in one play through or another. 4) I won't directly answer this one other than to point out there is a huge myth that all mages who are circle mages feel they are repressed and hard done by, in fact the majority did not feel that way in the early games. 5) There is no way to ignore this but none the less it is ignored or lessened by ultra mage supporters. 6) I won;t go through these one by one but will simply say I have yet to see one concrete plan for big mage supporters that would satisfy me, once again with point #1 in this list being in mind. 7) This is an interesting point and one I am looking forward to seeing how people react from certain elements. It's run by mages but by all reports it is equally if not more repressive of mages. 8) Well were does most of the research and magic making come from now? The tranquil. For templars it comes down to benefit vs danger. I think you need to look to the Chantry and higher ups in regards to magic benefits 9) The mages with mages has not been touched on enough to give good info. The seizing of mage children was set forth starkly in the whole Connor/REd cliff episode. 10) Danger vs benefit same answer as always and once again, look at this whole issue from the eyes of the 99% of people who are not mages or templars. 11) Eh? This last one makes no sense at all. Templar supporters are suspicious of spiriits for a variety of reasons, I'd put a huge portrait of Anders at the fore front and Cole right next to him.
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Post by Cantina on Oct 5, 2016 22:03:02 GMT
True. Furthermore The Harrowiong is a complete joke. Not to mention the Tranquil. If I was a mage, I'd rather just be killed then be a walking emotionless shell. Here's how I see it:
The Harrowing was actually created as a means of The Chantry showing their control over the mages. You pass, well good for you. You fail, you die, The Chantry wins. You choose to be made tranquil and The Chantry wins again.
Funny how The Chantry preaches about how dangerous magic is when: Templars use magic to deal with mages, The Chantry uses tranquil to bring in the biggest source of their income and as we find out in DAI Seekers not only use magic but can be considered abominations bu the laws of The Chantry. The list goes on. I really wish in DAI you could say, "Sod, The Chantry and just let it fall." But I suppose putting Lilly as Divine and allowing the mages to be free is good enough for me. The Harrowing is extreme, but serves a purpose. It demonstrates the mage has the presence of mind to resist at least a minor demon. But frankly I don't care for tests with that extreme a pass/fail margin, if you catch my drift. The Rite of Tranquility was actually meant to be an alternative to killing weak mages. Having it available is supposed to be a BENEFIT. Granted it turns out this is a case of teh cure being worse than the disease, but it is quite clear that it was not originally intended to be a form of punishment. ANd technically isn't supposed to be used that way now. Justinia was actually trying to find an alternative to Tranquility. Pity that went off the rails, but the cure is intriguing and may be a route to something better for everyone. I'm not sure how to qualify Templar abilities. Technically it is magic but it's function is more anti-magic. They reinforce "reality" as Cole puts it. Seekers are not abominations. They aren't even possessed. A spirit touches their mind, that is all. - No it does not serve a purpose. People who have passed their Harrowings have turned to Blood Magic and Demons. Whats-his-name...Aldrid in DAO is a good example of that. Throwing a person in a cage and telling them to survive a lion is not the best method of teaching. People can learn simply by teaching them the dangers of the Fade. I for one have never been thrown in the face of a lion (as many have) but most who have learned in whatever fashion know they are dangerous. You don't need some silly test to enforce such danger, it takes common sense. Sense in which The Chantry lacks. Its barbaric practice in which The Chantry has an opportunity to increase their coffers.
-I am fully aware of what the Rite was meant to do. Have you ever been Tranquil or near it? I have. Its not fun. Your just there. You don't have any feelings whatsoever. Well, Justina did not give the "Cure" a chance. The Mage came back flooded with emotions and instead of allowing him to work through it over time, Justina just made him tranquil again. You cannot claim to have a solution then not give said solution a better chance much less work out the kinks. Taking ones self from a mage is not a solution to an issue its a piss poor alternative instead of killing them. It makes non-mages feel less dirty and proud they are able to use said control without bloodying their hands.
-Yes, the Templars are using anti-magic but the lyrium they drink is not Red Bull. Its magic. Just as Solas said, "It is the source of all magic, say that which mages bring themselves." Saying Templars don't use magic to control magic is retort from The Chantry just so they don't come off as hypocrites.
-I suppose it could be viewed as grey area. If you listen to Cassandra she states she is made Tranquil then a Spirit of Faith touches her forehead. The Fade and the essences of spirits are made up of the same material - more or less. Thus when Cassandra is touched a piece of the Spirit/Fade is injected into her in order to reverse the Tranquil state. Also this allows Cassandra and any Seeker not to become possessed because a piece of The Fade is already within them. Same thing happened with Karl Theclar (sp) in DA2. The Fade was brought forth and his tranquillity was reversed-momentary. That being said The Chantry claims The Fade is a dangerous place (which it can be) however they use said place in order for Seekers to be what they are. Rather hypocritical from my vantage point.
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Post by xerrai on Oct 5, 2016 22:13:54 GMT
The Harrowing is extreme, but serves a purpose. It demonstrates the mage has the presence of mind to resist at least a minor demon. But frankly I don't care for tests with that extreme a pass/fail margin, if you catch my drift. The Rite of Tranquility was actually meant to be an alternative to killing weak mages. Having it available is supposed to be a BENEFIT. Granted it turns out this is a case of teh cure being worse than the disease, but it is quite clear that it was not originally intended to be a form of punishment. ANd technically isn't supposed to be used that way now. Justinia was actually trying to find an alternative to Tranquility. Pity that went off the rails, but the cure is intriguing and may be a route to something better for everyone. I'm not sure how to qualify Templar abilities. Technically it is magic but it's function is more anti-magic. They reinforce "reality" as Cole puts it. Seekers are not abominations. They aren't even possessed. A spirit touches their mind, that is all. [...]
-I am fully aware of what the Rite was meant to do. Have you ever been Tranquil or near it? I have. Its not fun. Your just there. You don't have any feelings whatsoever. Well, Justina did not give the "Cure" a chance. The Mage came back flooded with emotions and instead of allowing him to work through it over time, Justina just made him tranquil again. You cannot claim to have a solution then not give said solution a better chance much less work out the kinks. Taking ones self from a mage is not a solution to an issue its a piss poor alternative instead of killing them. It makes non-mages feel less dirty and proud they are able to use said control without bloodying their hands.
[...]Give Justinia credit. The insistence that Pharamond become Tranquil again was primarily the Lord Seeker's idea, not hers. She already knew the research has been spread to all of the Circles, so forsaking the life of one to appease the opposition (Lord Seeker) was understandable. Especially since it was true that Pharamond was at higher risk of possession due to his increased mental state. For all intents and purposes, tests to determine the nature of reversing the tranquility could have been done on a later date. Be it by the Circles (had they not rebelled) or the Chantry. And I won't go into the Seekers. We simply have nothing concrete on as to the details of their condition. Including weather or not anything was "left behind" after the spirit touched them. Anything that goes beyond what was already established is basically headcanon and fan theories.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 5, 2016 22:27:08 GMT
riverdaleswhiteflash We just circle. You can believe, my opinion will not change. Why they need freedom, if they have permission for temporary leave? I'm not sure, this is a serious question. For example.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2016 23:41:45 GMT
riverdaleswhiteflash We just circle. You can believe, my opinion will not change. Why they need freedom, if they have permission for temporary leave? I'm not sure, this is a serious question. For example. We do need the circles and the templars, but in lesser amounts, lol.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 5, 2016 23:43:09 GMT
riverdaleswhiteflash We just circle. You can believe, my opinion will not change. Why they need freedom, if they have permission for temporary leave? I'm not sure, this is a serious question. For example. We do need the circles and the templars, but in lesser amounts, lol. Of course, they are exist in Tevinter too...
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2016 23:45:18 GMT
We do need the circles and the templars, but in lesser amounts, lol. Of course, they are exist in Tevinter too... I did say lesser, i didn't say "all the way gone" i just say lesser as is no more life-long sentences to the Circle, just school for now on.
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Post by Iakus on Oct 6, 2016 0:51:26 GMT
The Harrowing is extreme, but serves a purpose. It demonstrates the mage has the presence of mind to resist at least a minor demon. But frankly I don't care for tests with that extreme a pass/fail margin, if you catch my drift. The Rite of Tranquility was actually meant to be an alternative to killing weak mages. Having it available is supposed to be a BENEFIT. Granted it turns out this is a case of teh cure being worse than the disease, but it is quite clear that it was not originally intended to be a form of punishment. ANd technically isn't supposed to be used that way now. Justinia was actually trying to find an alternative to Tranquility. Pity that went off the rails, but the cure is intriguing and may be a route to something better for everyone. I'm not sure how to qualify Templar abilities. Technically it is magic but it's function is more anti-magic. They reinforce "reality" as Cole puts it. Seekers are not abominations. They aren't even possessed. A spirit touches their mind, that is all. - No it does not serve a purpose. People who have passed their Harrowings have turned to Blood Magic and Demons. Whats-his-name...Aldrid in DAO is a good example of that. Throwing a person in a cage and telling them to survive a lion is not the best method of teaching. People can learn simply by teaching them the dangers of the Fade. I for one have never been thrown in the face of a lion (as many have) but most who have learned in whatever fashion know they are dangerous. You don't need some silly test to enforce such danger, it takes common sense. Sense in which The Chantry lacks. Its barbaric practice in which The Chantry has an opportunity to increase their coffers.
-I am fully aware of what the Rite was meant to do. Have you ever been Tranquil or near it? I have. Its not fun. Your just there. You don't have any feelings whatsoever. Well, Justina did not give the "Cure" a chance. The Mage came back flooded with emotions and instead of allowing him to work through it over time, Justina just made him tranquil again. You cannot claim to have a solution then not give said solution a better chance much less work out the kinks. Taking ones self from a mage is not a solution to an issue its a piss poor alternative instead of killing them. It makes non-mages feel less dirty and proud they are able to use said control without bloodying their hands.
-Yes, the Templars are using anti-magic but the lyrium they drink is not Red Bull. Its magic. Just as Solas said, "It is the source of all magic, say that which mages bring themselves." Saying Templars don't use magic to control magic is retort from The Chantry just so they don't come off as hypocrites.
-I suppose it could be viewed as grey area. If you listen to Cassandra she states she is made Tranquil then a Spirit of Faith touches her forehead. The Fade and the essences of spirits are made up of the same material - more or less. Thus when Cassandra is touched a piece of the Spirit/Fade is injected into her in order to reverse the Tranquil state. Also this allows Cassandra and any Seeker not to become possessed because a piece of The Fade is already within them. Same thing happened with Karl Theclar (sp) in DA2. The Fade was brought forth and his tranquillity was reversed-momentary. That being said The Chantry claims The Fade is a dangerous place (which it can be) however they use said place in order for Seekers to be what they are. Rather hypocritical from my vantage point. - You may have noticed that I agree the Harrowing is not necessary. BUt tell me how letting apprentice mages die somehow makes the Chantry wealthier? -You also remember I said the cure is intriguing and may lead to a way to protect mages from demons for good. It wasn't Justinia's idea to make him Tranquil again, it was Lambert's (we don't even know if he COULD be made Tranquil again!) Of course, he was MURDERED by a fellow mage before that could happen... -Maybe. Don't see the point here. Tevinter's pretty hypocritical about blood magic too, and they get held up as an ideal for mage freedom. -We don't know why a spirit touching the mind of a Tranquil does what it does. And the Chantry doesn't either. The ritual was a closely held secret known only to senior members of the Seekers. Remember, even Cassandra, a Seeker herself, didn't know until she gets that tome.
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Post by opuspace on Oct 6, 2016 1:35:40 GMT
Well, given Vivienne has a suite at the palace and semi-permanent living quarters Duke Bastien's place, I think permission from the First Enchanter means more freedom than a simple hall pass or personal day Frankly, it sounds less like mages are treated as children, and more like they have a dormant, but potentially very dangerous medical condition. As long as they can be trusted to take care of themselves and check in with their doctor ever so often, they can go about their lives. In theory at least. Vivienne is more of an exception in both intelligence and magical strength. And considering the level of ruthlessness and luck she had to catch the eye of a patron who would fund her "freedom", I'm not so sure she's the ideal mage all others should follow. She does give stability, but not all mages can follow her example. Another problem is that the Circles were way too inconsistent. Where a Ferelden Circle may offer chaperoned outside time for exercise (which again, is too much like a prison setting) others don't even bother. Ideally, mages should be able to move about their lives and check in regularly with the authorities, but that's not how it was being practiced. They were being held in a quarantine setting and that doesn't inspire confidence if you're being treated as though you have no control over yourself at all. Personally, I'd wonder how they'd fare under a military environment like biotics where they eat, sleep and train alongside the Templars. Keeping busy can do wonders to distract you from boredom and be less resentful if your handlers are also your comrades in arms.
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