Iakus
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Post by Iakus on Oct 6, 2016 1:53:13 GMT
Well, given Vivienne has a suite at the palace and semi-permanent living quarters Duke Bastien's place, I think permission from the First Enchanter means more freedom than a simple hall pass or personal day Frankly, it sounds less like mages are treated as children, and more like they have a dormant, but potentially very dangerous medical condition. As long as they can be trusted to take care of themselves and check in with their doctor ever so often, they can go about their lives. In theory at least. Vivienne is more of an exception in both intelligence and magical strength. And considering the level of ruthlessness and luck she had to catch the eye of a patron who would fund her "freedom", I'm not so sure she's the ideal mage all others should follow. She does give stability, but not all mages can follow her example. Another problem is that the Circles were way too inconsistent. Where a Ferelden Circle may offer chaperoned outside time for exercise (which again, is too much like a prison setting) others don't even bother. Ideally, mages should be able to move about their lives and check in regularly with the authorities, but that's not how it was being practiced. They were being held in a quarantine setting and that doesn't inspire confidence if you're being treated as though you have no control over yourself at all. Personally, I'd wonder how they'd fare under a military environment like biotics where they eat, sleep and train alongside the Templars. Keeping busy can do wonders to distract you from boredom and be less resentful if your handlers are also your comrades in arms. The difference with Vivienne is that to get permission, you need the approval of the First Enchanter, and Vivienne is the First Enchanter of her Circle. Bastien had nothing to do with it. The Circles are inconsistent, but that's because they are run by different First Enchanters with different relationships with their Knight Commanders. SOme, like Monstimmard, are quite lenient towards the mages (note it was the only Circle that didn't rebel) On the other end of teh spectrum we have Kirkwall, which was an absolute cess pit. Ferelden seemed to allow at least some mages out for extended periods of time. Wynne as one example. And Wilhelm (Shale's old master) lived in and raised a family in Honnleath.
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Post by dragontartare on Oct 6, 2016 1:53:17 GMT
One thing I've noticed is how personal Mage fans can take these games; most RPGs are power fantasies, and players naturally want whatever they feel makes their characters more powerful. So naturally, they associate Chantry restrictions with restrictions on *them*. Thing is, had they been born in Thedas, there is no guarantee that they would be Mages. Quite the reverse, if the Law of Averages is to be believed. Do they ever stop to consider the concerns of mundanes, or simply dismiss them since they're "boring" and "not special enough"? I get the fantasy, I play Mages all the time. But I've become bored with protagonists who are heroes because of some random genetic quirk and/or touch of destiny, rather than something they accomplished through their own hard work. Let's try something different, ignoring the obvious Abomination and Blood Mage arguements: imagine you work in a construction firm that has been trying to get a contract to build a fort. Two or three Mages get the contract and complete the building for less money, and your crew and their families starve. Should you have no legal recourse? It should be noted than when David Gaider started outlining the original Dragon Age bible, much of the lore was in response to things he hated in most Dungeons & Dragons style RPGs. For instance, that there was little defense for the average person if a magic user casted "Charm Person" to make them like the caster. You are arguing against an extreme that very few "mage fans" actually advocate for, while also insulting the intelligence of a number of people (inadvertently, I don't doubt). We all know that, had we been born in Thedas, we would likely not be mages, math and statistics being what they are. Are you suggesting we should only advocate for the rights of those who are like us, rather than trying to understand and support those who are different? I hope not. What a world it would be if everyone only thought about themselves As far as your assumption that mage fans must simply be drunk on power fantasies, my personal favorite protagonist is Hawke because s/he isn't a superhero type of character, and I haven't even played a mage Hawke yet (and kind of don't want to, except it's the only way to experience having Carver around, so it'll have to happen eventually). So no, I don't support mages over Templars because I think non-mages are too "boring." I explained why in my original response to this thread, so I won't rehash it here. The most common suggestion I have seen to deal with this problem, from both mage and Templar supporters, is to transform the circles into boarding schools of a sort, rather than prisons, with some allowances for mages to have families. I don't think I've seen many people seriously suggest that mages should be able to do whatever the hell they want with no restrictions or checks on their power at all, or with no protections for non-mages. If you allow that, you get Tevinter. As for your hypothetical scenario, considering that in DAI you can send your troops off to do construction jobs that would otherwise not get done (apparently), I doubt Thedas has many out-of-work construction crews to begin with. But ignoring that problem with your hypothetical, how are "two or three mages" going to get a fort built in only a few days? Are they fueling this work with blood magic? Are they insanely over-powered mages who don't need to eat or sleep, who never get tired and never run out of mana? I need to know what I'm working with here.
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Post by opuspace on Oct 6, 2016 2:02:48 GMT
One thing I've noticed is how personal Mage fans can take these games; most RPGs are power fantasies, and players naturally want whatever they feel makes their characters more powerful. So naturally, they associate Chantry restrictions with restrictions on *them*. Thing is, had they been born in Thedas, there is no guarantee that they would be Mages. Quite the reverse, if the Law of Averages is to be believed. Do they ever stop to consider the concerns of mundanes, or simply dismiss them since they're "boring" and "not special enough"? I get the fantasy, I play Mages all the time. But I've become bored with protagonists who are heroes because of some random genetic quirk and/or touch of destiny, rather than something they accomplished through their own hard work. On the contrary, I'm for mages participating in society instead of being isolated because if they're kept sheltered away from others, it breeds the potential for narcissistic supremacy. No connection with outsiders leads to lack of concern for them. The awe and respect I have for others is because I was given a chance to be part of their group. I care more now about how others feel because I treasure the experiences they gave me. As for mages being able to do things others cannot, eh, Thedas mages have severe restrictions on their abilities. They need to eat, sleep and use the loo just as much as a mundane and they can be outsmarted and outmaneuvered. You can't cast a spell if someone with faster reflexes drives a knife into your head. If it's a concern about mages putting mundanes out of business, they said the camera made paintings redundant. Instead, photography has helped artists with model references and color and landscape. They were freed from depending on life holding still when they had tools to spare them time and preparation. So it's not a guarantee that mages are a threat economically. They could very well make life easier for people if they're given certain jobs like building homes for the workers who build the elaborate architectures. I don't approve of the Chantry having control over people's lives the same way as any religion because of the damage they inadvertently cause out of some misguided sense of righteousness. Preserving beliefs that would make problems worse than improving them is frustrating like refusing to keep the masses educated on taboo topics like sex and pretending the problem won't exist if you don't know about it.
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Post by thesupremedarkone on Oct 6, 2016 2:07:03 GMT
One thing I've noticed is how personal Mage fans can take these games; most RPGs are power fantasies, and players naturally want whatever they feel makes their characters more powerful. So naturally, they associate Chantry restrictions with restrictions on *them*. Thing is, had they been born in Thedas, there is no guarantee that they would be Mages. Quite the reverse, if the Law of Averages is to be believed. Do they ever stop to consider the concerns of mundanes, or simply dismiss them since they're "boring" and "not special enough"? I get the fantasy, I play Mages all the time. But I've become bored with protagonists who are heroes because of some random genetic quirk and/or touch of destiny, rather than something they accomplished through their own hard work. Let's try something different, ignoring the obvious Abomination and Blood Mage arguements: imagine you work in a construction firm that has been trying to get a contract to build a fort. Two or three Mages get the contract and complete the building for less money, and your crew and their families starve. Should you have no legal recourse? It should be noted than when David Gaider started outlining the original Dragon Age bible, much of the lore was in response to things he hated in most Dungeons & Dragons style RPGs. For instance, that there was little defense for the average person if a magic user casted "Charm Person" to make them like the caster. You are arguing against an extreme that very few "mage fans" actually advocate for, while also insulting the intelligence of a number of people (inadvertently, I don't doubt). We all know that, had we been born in Thedas, we would likely not be mages, math and statistics being what they are. Are you suggesting we should only advocate for the rights of those who are like us, rather than trying to understand and support those who are different? I hope not. What a world it would be if everyone only thought about themselves As far as your assumption that mage fans must simply be drunk on power fantasies, my personal favorite protagonist is Hawke because s/he isn't a superhero type of character, and I haven't even played a mage Hawke yet (and kind of don't want to, except it's the only way to experience having Carver around, so it'll have to happen eventually). So no, I don't support mages over Templars because I think non-mages are too "boring." I explained why in my original response to this thread, so I won't rehash it here. The most common suggestion I have seen to deal with this problem, from both mage and Templar supporters, is to transform the circles into boarding schools of a sort, rather than prisons, with some allowances for mages to have families. I don't think I've seen many people seriously suggest that mages should be able to do whatever the hell they want with no restrictions or checks on their power at all, or with no protections for non-mages. If you allow that, you get Tevinter. As for your hypothetical scenario, considering that in DAI you can send your troops off to do construction jobs that would otherwise not get done (apparently), I doubt Thedas has many out-of-work construction crews to begin with. But ignoring that problem with your hypothetical, how are "two or three mages" going to get a fort built in only a few days? Are they fueling this work with blood magic? Are they insanely over-powered mages who don't need to eat or sleep, who never get tired and never run out of mana? I need to know what I'm working with here. This. Seriously, it's like Templar supporters think all mage supporters are this straw man tumblrina
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Post by opuspace on Oct 6, 2016 2:25:06 GMT
The difference with Vivienne is that to get permission, you need the approval of the First Enchanter, and Vivienne is the First Enchanter of her Circle. Bastien had nothing to do with it. The Circles are inconsistent, but that's because they are run by different First Enchanters with different relationships with their Knight Commanders. SOme, like Monstimmard, are quite lenient towards the mages (note it was the only Circle that didn't rebel) On the other end of teh spectrum we have Kirkwall, which was an absolute cess pit. Ferelden seemed to allow at least some mages out for extended periods of time. Wynne as one example. And Wilhelm (Shale's old master) lived in and raised a family in Honnleath. It still does not help the case because Vivienne learned how to manipulate the system. Others cannot be expected to keep up with stacked odds because everyone was given different skills and backgrounds. Even the background of an Amell or Surana found a proven mage balked at being given freedom to go outside. And this is where I'm asking why were the leaders of each Circle were not coordinating, talking, comparing notes on how to keep the residents happy and useful? They had top magical research, resources and staff to look into improving lives and keeping the casualties down. They could have been helping improve conditions, increase communication between Circles, perhaps arrange means of shortening travel so other Templars can back up an overrun tower. It all seems a waste because all this talent was available and none of it was used to prevent the war that could have been preempted had they given the residents a voice.
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Toyish Batphone
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Post by Toyish Batphone on Oct 6, 2016 12:07:53 GMT
One thing I've noticed is how personal Mage fans can take these games; most RPGs are power fantasies, and players naturally want whatever they feel makes their characters more powerful. So naturally, they associate Chantry restrictions with restrictions on *them*. Thing is, had they been born in Thedas, there is no guarantee that they would be Mages. Quite the reverse, if the Law of Averages is to be believed. Do they ever stop to consider the concerns of mundanes, or simply dismiss them since they're "boring" and "not special enough"? I get the fantasy, I play Mages all the time. But I've become bored with protagonists who are heroes because of some random genetic quirk and/or touch of destiny, rather than something they accomplished through their own hard work. Let's try something different, ignoring the obvious Abomination and Blood Mage arguements: imagine you work in a construction firm that has been trying to get a contract to build a fort. Two or three Mages get the contract and complete the building for less money, and your crew and their families starve. Should you have no legal recourse? It should be noted than when David Gaider started outlining the original Dragon Age bible, much of the lore was in response to things he hated in most Dungeons & Dragons style RPGs. For instance, that there was little defense for the average person if a magic user casted "Charm Person" to make them like the caster. At this rate, I am going to end up becoming a Rogue fan, specifically a Rogue Archer. In my late teens and early 20s, I used to be very gung-ho about all sorts of "ism" and causes. I was very idealistic, to the point of being foolishly naive. Now in my mid 20s, I have become more pragmatic and efficiency-oriented. I have also become rather jaded about championing causes and I am more focused on myself. A couple of years ago I would be mostly bothered with causes but now my only real concern is working to make money to sustain my lifestyle. Causes and "isms"? Screw those things - Waste of resources and nothing really changes anyway. That's a Rogue's way of thinking:- "I just wanna make money to live well." A Mage never really thinks that way, they are all about causes, rights and "isms". Plus, if we are making things personal - I am an average man and I have to put real effort to get what I want. I don't have any abilities that can warp reality with a thought.I can't just think stuff and make it happen. So Rogue it is - Screw Mages and Templars and the Chantry, I have a life to live and to live it I need to work. I am going with Archery because I have actually shot a bow before. #MuggleLifeFTW
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Post by Catilina on Oct 6, 2016 12:51:19 GMT
One thing I've noticed is how personal Mage fans can take these games; most RPGs are power fantasies, and players naturally want whatever they feel makes their characters more powerful. So naturally, they associate Chantry restrictions with restrictions on *them*. Thing is, had they been born in Thedas, there is no guarantee that they would be Mages. Quite the reverse, if the Law of Averages is to be believed. Do they ever stop to consider the concerns of mundanes, or simply dismiss them since they're "boring" and "not special enough"? I get the fantasy, I play Mages all the time. But I've become bored with protagonists who are heroes because of some random genetic quirk and/or touch of destiny, rather than something they accomplished through their own hard work. Let's try something different, ignoring the obvious Abomination and Blood Mage arguements: imagine you work in a construction firm that has been trying to get a contract to build a fort. Two or three Mages get the contract and complete the building for less money, and your crew and their families starve. Should you have no legal recourse? It should be noted than when David Gaider started outlining the original Dragon Age bible, much of the lore was in response to things he hated in most Dungeons & Dragons style RPGs. For instance, that there was little defense for the average person if a magic user casted "Charm Person" to make them like the caster. At this rate, I am going to end up becoming a Rogue fan, specifically a Rogue Archer. In my late teens and early 20s, I used to be very gung-ho about all sorts of "ism" and causes. I was very idealistic, to the point of being foolishly naive. Now in my mid 20s, I have become more pragmatic and efficiency-oriented. I have also become rather jaded about championing causes and I am more focused on myself. A couple of years ago I would be mostly bothered with causes but now my only real concern is working to make money to sustain my lifestyle. Causes and "isms"? Screw those things - Waste of resources and nothing really changes anyway. That's a Rogue's way of thinking:- "I just wanna make money to live well." A Mage never really thinks that way, they are all about causes, rights and "isms". Plus, if we are making things personal - I am an average man and I have to put real effort to get what I want. I don't have any abilities that can warp reality with a thought.I can't just think stuff and make it happen. So Rogue it is - Screw Mages and Templars and the Chantry, I have a life to live and to live it I need to work. I am going with Archery because I have actually shot a bow before. #MuggleLifeFTW Rational ism ftw!
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Toyish Batphone
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Post by Toyish Batphone on Oct 6, 2016 13:29:21 GMT
Meh. I know what being rational is but people are contented irrationalists by nature. It ain't my job to teach or educate others about being rational, doing so is a waste of my resources - primarily time and emotions. “If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn’t value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?” :- Sam Harris. Replace evidence / logic with rationality and you will realize that while you as an individual can take the initiative to strive to be rational, others will most definitely not do so and trying to convince them is inefficient.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 6, 2016 13:35:38 GMT
Meh. I know what being rational is but people are contented irrationalists by nature. It ain't my job to teach or educate others about being rational, doing so is a waste of my resources - primarily time and emotions. “If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn’t value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?” :- Sam Harris. Replace evidence / logic with rationality and you will realize that while you as an individual can take the initiative to strive to be rational, others will most definitely not do so and trying to convince them is inefficient. Logic and rationality not enough. Just look: Someone have logical arguments, why the Circle-system are important. Someone have logical arguments, why the Circle-system failed.
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Post by Toyish Batphone on Oct 6, 2016 13:55:47 GMT
Meh. I know what being rational is but people are contented irrationalists by nature. It ain't my job to teach or educate others about being rational, doing so is a waste of my resources - primarily time and emotions. “If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn’t value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?” :- Sam Harris. Replace evidence / logic with rationality and you will realize that while you as an individual can take the initiative to strive to be rational, others will most definitely not do so and trying to convince them is inefficient. Logic and rationality not enough. Just look: Someone have logical arguments, why the Circle-system are important. Someone have logical arguments, why the Circle-system failed. The situation with mages is as follows:- The reality that Theodosians (and we in the real world) live under is that might is right. Why do you think people obey monarchs or the law ? Is it simply because of morals or is there something more ? There is something more and that is the monarchs and the judiciary have access to might - the capacity to exact violence (a strong capacity in the form of guards and soldiers). Therefore, they get their way. Similarly, USA is a world superpower not just because of its size, but because of the military it has. What does this have to do with magic ? Well, magic is a form of might. In Thedas, magic is the strongest and most diverse form of might. Even the most powerful non-magical items such as bows or swords have enchantments (which is magic) in them. The Orb of Fen'Harel, which was capable of rending the sky asunder, is magical. Mages are magical. That level of power attracts attention and subsequent exploitation. Whether said attention and exploitation favor the mage or disfavor the mage varies between groups. In Tevinter (and in ancient Elvhenan), mages are at the top - Because might is right. Outside Tevinter, mages are treated like a disposable utility + weapon because otherwise the power they are capable of wielding ends up being a threat to many. That is why Templars and Arvaraads exist - They are there to control the power, control the might that power can bring so it never rises to affect the might that is the status quo. At the same time, you have mages like Vivienne who exploits the system she lives under to exert her own might - Through magic, politics and seduction (she is Duke Bastien's mistress). People don't leave oil alone or nukes alone - What makes you think people would leave magic alone if it was real ? They never will - It is the nature of sentient organics to want to accumulate resources. This is why there will ultimately never be any peace or stability between mages and non-mages no matter how logical or how rational the solutions proposed are - Because might is right and magic is mighty so its right is either validated or invalidated. Sure, you can bring up the majority of mages who are decent and who want to be left alone to live their lives in peace but if history has taught me anything, it is this:- The peaceful majority are irrelevant. The majority of mages can be peaceful people and that did not stop them from screwing things up so badly time and time again. Similarly, the majority of Germans, Japanese and Russians are peaceful people and that did not stop them from committing millions and millions (literally) of barbaric murder. There is the reason the peaceful majority is referred to as the silent majority and throughout history, right up until the birth of social media, the silent majority has been pretty much irrelevant. The same is true of mages - Until we have Facebook or Twitter or Reddit in Thedas where the silent majority of mages can be properly heard and be an actual force, they will not matter in the grand scheme of things, especially when their representatives (looking at you Fiona) screws things up badly.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 6, 2016 14:11:53 GMT
Logic and rationality not enough. Just look: Someone have logical arguments, why the Circle-system are important. Someone have logical arguments, why the Circle-system failed. The situation with mages is as follows:- The reality that Theodosians (and we in the real world) live under is that might is right. Why do you think people obey monarchs or the law ? Is it simply because of morals or is there something more ? There is something more and that is the monarchs and the judiciary have access to might - the capacity to exact violence (a strong capacity in the form of guards and soldiers). Therefore, they get their way. Similarly, USA is a world superpower not just because of its size, but because of the military it has. What does this have to do with magic ? Well, magic is a form of might. In Thedas, magic is the strongest and most diverse form of might. Even the most powerful non-magical items such as bows or swords have enchantments (which is magic) in them. The Orb of Fen'Harel, which was capable of rending the sky asunder, is magical. Mages are magical. That level of power attracts attention and subsequent exploitation. Whether said attention and exploitation favor the mage or disfavor the mage varies between groups. In Tevinter (and in ancient Elvhenan), mages are at the top - Because might is right. Outside Tevinter, mages are treated like a disposable utility + weapon because otherwise the power they are capable of wielding ends up being a threat to many. That is why Templars and Arvaraads exist - They are there to control the power, control the might that power can bring so it never rises to affect the might that is the status quo. At the same time, you have mages like Vivienne who exploits the system she lives under to exert her own might - Through magic, politics and seduction (she is Duke Bastien's mistress). People don't leave oil alone or nukes alone - What makes you think people would leave magic alone if it was real ? They never will - It is the nature of sentient organics to want to accumulate resources. This is why there will ultimately never be any peace or stability between mages and non-mages no matter how logical or how rational the solutions proposed are - Because might is right and magic is mighty so its right is either validated or invalidated. Sure, you can bring up the majority of mages who are decent and who want to be left alone to live their lives in peace but if history has taught me anything, it is this:- The peaceful majority are irrelevant. The majority of mages can be peaceful people and that did not stop them from screwing things up so badly time and time again. Similarly, the majority of Germans, Japanese and Russians are peaceful people and that did not stop them from committing millions and millions (literally) of barbaric murder. There is the reason the peaceful majority is referred to as the silent majority and throughout history, right up until the birth of social media, the silent majority has been pretty much irrelevant. The same is true of mages - Until we have Facebook or Twitter or Reddit in Thedas where the silent majority of mages can be properly heard and be an actual force, they will not matter in the grand scheme of things, especially when their representatives (looking at you Fiona) screws things up badly. What do you wanted to say with this? The Chantry close the helpless weak* mages, but leave the manipulative, powerful mages subjugate the world (the Vivienne-kind mages always free...). It is not logical but cruel. Simple cruel. ____ * (I now not speak of mages, who have low willpower)
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Post by Toyish Batphone on Oct 6, 2016 14:20:08 GMT
The situation with mages is as follows:- The reality that Theodosians (and we in the real world) live under is that might is right. Why do you think people obey monarchs or the law ? Is it simply because of morals or is there something more ? There is something more and that is the monarchs and the judiciary have access to might - the capacity to exact violence (a strong capacity in the form of guards and soldiers). Therefore, they get their way. Similarly, USA is a world superpower not just because of its size, but because of the military it has. What does this have to do with magic ? Well, magic is a form of might. In Thedas, magic is the strongest and most diverse form of might. Even the most powerful non-magical items such as bows or swords have enchantments (which is magic) in them. The Orb of Fen'Harel, which was capable of rending the sky asunder, is magical. Mages are magical. That level of power attracts attention and subsequent exploitation. Whether said attention and exploitation favor the mage or disfavor the mage varies between groups. In Tevinter (and in ancient Elvhenan), mages are at the top - Because might is right. Outside Tevinter, mages are treated like a disposable utility + weapon because otherwise the power they are capable of wielding ends up being a threat to many. That is why Templars and Arvaraads exist - They are there to control the power, control the might that power can bring so it never rises to affect the might that is the status quo. At the same time, you have mages like Vivienne who exploits the system she lives under to exert her own might - Through magic, politics and seduction (she is Duke Bastien's mistress). People don't leave oil alone or nukes alone - What makes you think people would leave magic alone if it was real ? They never will - It is the nature of sentient organics to want to accumulate resources. This is why there will ultimately never be any peace or stability between mages and non-mages no matter how logical or how rational the solutions proposed are - Because might is right and magic is mighty so its right is either validated or invalidated. Sure, you can bring up the majority of mages who are decent and who want to be left alone to live their lives in peace but if history has taught me anything, it is this:- The peaceful majority are irrelevant. The majority of mages can be peaceful people and that did not stop them from screwing things up so badly time and time again. Similarly, the majority of Germans, Japanese and Russians are peaceful people and that did not stop them from committing millions and millions (literally) of barbaric murder. There is the reason the peaceful majority is referred to as the silent majority and throughout history, right up until the birth of social media, the silent majority has been pretty much irrelevant. The same is true of mages - Until we have Facebook or Twitter or Reddit in Thedas where the silent majority of mages can be properly heard and be an actual force, they will not matter in the grand scheme of things, especially when their representatives (looking at you Fiona) screws things up badly. What do you wanted to say with this? The Chantry close the helpless weak* mages, but leave the manipulative, powerful mages subjugate the world (the Vivienne-kind mages always free...). It is not logical but cruel. Simple cruel. ____ * (I now not speak of mages, who have low willpower) It is cruel because of the aforementioned reasons above. Magic is a source of power and power is coveted by all since might is right. Therefore, mages, people who are born with innate power, will never be left alone in the same way nobles, people who are born into power, will never be left alone - The mage gets leashed or enslaved, the noble can be a victim of regicide or deadly intrigue. By the way, please improve your English. It can be rather painful to read what you typed out at times.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 6, 2016 14:43:23 GMT
What do you wanted to say with this? The Chantry close the helpless weak* mages, but leave the manipulative, powerful mages subjugate the world (the Vivienne-kind mages always free...). It is not logical but cruel. Simple cruel. ____ * (I now not speak of mages, who have low willpower) It is cruel because of the aforementioned reasons above. Magic is a source of power and power is coveted by all since might is right. Therefore, mages, people who are born with innate power, will never be left alone in the same way nobles, people who are born into power, will never be left alone - The mage gets leashed or enslaved, the noble can be a victim of regicide or deadly intrigue. By the way, please improve your English. It can be rather painful to read what you typed out at times. You forgot, who is born into slavery. This is their fate, don't need to change it, because the slaves can be useful, and to serve their master is their duty. I don't know, why the world changes always, when for example the personal rights are completely unnecessary, but the kings and the nobles are extremely important. All people need to know their place in the world! (And sorry for my English.)
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Post by Toyish Batphone on Oct 6, 2016 15:04:11 GMT
It is cruel because of the aforementioned reasons above. Magic is a source of power and power is coveted by all since might is right. Therefore, mages, people who are born with innate power, will never be left alone in the same way nobles, people who are born into power, will never be left alone - The mage gets leashed or enslaved, the noble can be a victim of regicide or deadly intrigue. By the way, please improve your English. It can be rather painful to read what you typed out at times. You forgot, who is born into slavery. This is their fate, don't need to change it, because the slaves can be useful, and to serve their master is their duty. I don't know, why the world changes always, when for example the personal rights are completely unnecessary, but the kings and the nobles are extremely important. All people need to know their place in the world! (And sorry for my English.) Providing an explanation for something does not equate to an endorsement of said something.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 6, 2016 15:21:45 GMT
You forgot, who is born into slavery. This is their fate, don't need to change it, because the slaves can be useful, and to serve their master is their duty. I don't know, why the world changes always, when for example the personal rights are completely unnecessary, but the kings and the nobles are extremely important. All people need to know their place in the world! (And sorry for my English.) Providing an explanation for something does not equate to an endorsement of said something. My point was: your parallels not working.
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Post by Iakus on Oct 6, 2016 15:56:52 GMT
The difference with Vivienne is that to get permission, you need the approval of the First Enchanter, and Vivienne is the First Enchanter of her Circle. Bastien had nothing to do with it. The Circles are inconsistent, but that's because they are run by different First Enchanters with different relationships with their Knight Commanders. SOme, like Monstimmard, are quite lenient towards the mages (note it was the only Circle that didn't rebel) On the other end of teh spectrum we have Kirkwall, which was an absolute cess pit. Ferelden seemed to allow at least some mages out for extended periods of time. Wynne as one example. And Wilhelm (Shale's old master) lived in and raised a family in Honnleath. It still does not help the case because Vivienne learned how to manipulate the system. Others cannot be expected to keep up with stacked odds because everyone was given different skills and backgrounds. Even the background of an Amell or Surana found a proven mage balked at being given freedom to go outside. And this is where I'm asking why were the leaders of each Circle were not coordinating, talking, comparing notes on how to keep the residents happy and useful? They had top magical research, resources and staff to look into improving lives and keeping the casualties down. They could have been helping improve conditions, increase communication between Circles, perhaps arrange means of shortening travel so other Templars can back up an overrun tower. It all seems a waste because all this talent was available and none of it was used to prevent the war that could have been preempted had they given the residents a voice. Actually, I'd say Vivienne is playing the system exactly as it was meant to. It's the Templars who were manipulating it. And Vivienne is not one to allow herself to be manipulated. I certainly don't disagree that the system has broken down. But I do think conditions will improve once a proper balance is struck. (though that doesn't mean things won't break down again)
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Post by Toyish Batphone on Oct 6, 2016 16:03:10 GMT
Providing an explanation for something does not equate to an endorsement of said something. My point was: your parallels not working. I am merely providing a reason mages are treated the way they are and that is because magic is a source of power none can ignore in a world where might makes right, just like how people fight over crude oil and the ability to weaponize atomic power, because those are sources of energy which is power which one can use. Mages are people born with inherent abolity to manipulate magic, which is energy.They are like a human nuclear reactor. People will never leave them alone because of the power they wield, which means no solution, however egalitarian, will hold steady long term. In short, I am merely pointing out the futility of proposing long term egalitarian solutions in a reality that merely pays such things lip service and is instead run on the principle that might is right.I am not saying I want mages to be oppressed, I am simply stating that shit ain't gonna just change. Look at DAI - At the end of Trespasser the Circle system is either divided into 2 factions or firmly under religious authorities despite the best efforts of the protagonist, regardless of whatever view the protagonist has on mages. Essentially - Same shit different flavor / The more things change, the more they stay the same. You somehow decide to perform the mental gymnastic whereby stating something like that equates to endorsement of slavery and class immobility.That's not my problem. Reason =/= parallels =/= endorsement.
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Post by thesupremedarkone on Oct 6, 2016 16:17:54 GMT
My point was: your parallels not working. I am merely providing a reason mages are treated the way they are and that is because magic is a source of power none can ignore in a world where might makes right, just like how people fight over crude oil and the ability to weaponize atomic power, because those are sources of energy which is power which one can use. Mages are people born with inherent abolity to manipulate magic, which is energy.They are like a human nuclear reactor. People will never leave them alone because of the power they wield, which means no solution, however egalitarian, will hold steady long term. In short, I am merely pointing out the futility of proposing long term egalitarian solutions in a reality that merely pays such things lip service and is instead run on the principle that might is right.I am not saying I want mages to be oppressed, I am simply stating that shit ain't gonna just change. Look at DAI - At the end of Trespasser the Circle system is either divided into 2 factions or firmly under religious authorities despite the best efforts of the protagonist, regardless of whatever view the protagonist has on mages. Essentially - Same shit different flavor / The more things change, the more they stay the same. You somehow decide to perform the mental gymnastic whereby stating something like that equates to endorsement of slavery and class immobility.That's not my problem. Reason =/= parallels =/= endorsement. Except for you know mages gaining unprecedented acceptance with divine Leliana. Heck the conscripted mages ending with Divine Leliana outright says some mages decide to live civilian lives.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 6, 2016 16:23:48 GMT
It still does not help the case because Vivienne learned how to manipulate the system. Others cannot be expected to keep up with stacked odds because everyone was given different skills and backgrounds. Even the background of an Amell or Surana found a proven mage balked at being given freedom to go outside. And this is where I'm asking why were the leaders of each Circle were not coordinating, talking, comparing notes on how to keep the residents happy and useful? They had top magical research, resources and staff to look into improving lives and keeping the casualties down. They could have been helping improve conditions, increase communication between Circles, perhaps arrange means of shortening travel so other Templars can back up an overrun tower. It all seems a waste because all this talent was available and none of it was used to prevent the war that could have been preempted had they given the residents a voice. Actually, I'd say Vivienne is playing the system exactly as it was meant to. It's the Templars who were manipulating it. And Vivienne is not one to allow herself to be manipulated. I certainly don't disagree that the system has broken down. But I do think conditions will improve once a proper balance is struck. (though that doesn't mean things won't break down again)This is the point. THIS system can not be repaired. A completely new system needed. Instead of the concentrated prison-Circles full of angry and desperate mages and angry Templars with power over this mages, need organized education, registration and control. It seems it's harder to handle, but less cruel, and there is lesser chance of privileged (but still dangerous) minority and oppressed majority of mages. Accidents will always happens, this is not justify the cruelty.
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Post by Cantina on Oct 6, 2016 19:39:43 GMT
Actually, I'd say Vivienne is playing the system exactly as it was meant to. It's the Templars who were manipulating it. And Vivienne is not one to allow herself to be manipulated. I certainly don't disagree that the system has broken down. But I do think conditions will improve once a proper balance is struck. (though that doesn't mean things won't break down again) This is the point. THIS system can not be repaired. A completely new system needed. Instead of the concentrated prison-Circles full of angry and desperate mages and angry Templars with power over this mages, need organized education, registration and control. It seems it's harder to handle, but less cruel, and there is lesser chance of privileged (but still dangerous) minority and oppressed majority of mages. Accidents will always happens, this is not justify the cruelty. True to that.
The Chantry allowed the Templars to get away with far too much for far too long. And when Justina told the Templars to back-off they threw a fit.
Fiona says, "We cannot go back to the way things were." Which is true.
You cannot "restore" a broken system. Even if you add in a few tweaks and/or fixes. Sooner or later it will just collapse again. Which is why I choose Lilly as Divine. Mages should be given a chance to live normal lives; have jobs, family - freedom.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Oct 6, 2016 19:50:24 GMT
Actually, I'd say Vivienne is playing the system exactly as it was meant to. It's the Templars who were manipulating it. And Vivienne is not one to allow herself to be manipulated. I certainly don't disagree that the system has broken down. But I do think conditions will improve once a proper balance is struck. (though that doesn't mean things won't break down again)This is the point. THIS system can not be repaired. A completely new system needed. Instead of the concentrated prison-Circles full of angry and desperate mages and angry Templars with power over this mages, need organized education, registration and control. It seems it's harder to handle, but less cruel, and there is lesser chance of privileged (but still dangerous) minority and oppressed majority of mages. Accidents will always happens, this is not justify the cruelty. Why not? That's a serious question. The thing that drove mages to reject it completely (to the extent that they actually did, since there are still Loyalists in DA:I) is that the Templars were getting no oversight, damn well knew it, and damn well acted like it. It was Meredith's unjust Annulment of the Kirkwall Circle and Lambert's hamfisted, cartoon villain attempts at controlling the mages that caused them to decide by majority vote to rebel. Absent those, the mages who hate the system could very well become a powerless minority faction again, and the ones willing to rebel violently a powerless minority faction of them.
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Post by thesupremedarkone on Oct 6, 2016 19:59:14 GMT
This is the point. THIS system can not be repaired. A completely new system needed. Instead of the concentrated prison-Circles full of angry and desperate mages and angry Templars with power over this mages, need organized education, registration and control. It seems it's harder to handle, but less cruel, and there is lesser chance of privileged (but still dangerous) minority and oppressed majority of mages. Accidents will always happens, this is not justify the cruelty. Why not? That's a serious question. The thing that drove mages to reject it completely (to the extent that they actually did, since there are still Loyalists in DA:I) is that the Templars were getting no oversight, damn well knew it, and damn well acted like it. It was Meredith's unjust Annulment of the Kirkwall Circle and Lambert's hamfisted, cartoon villain attempts at controlling the mages that caused them to decide by majority vote to rebel. Absent those, the mages who hate the system could very well become a powerless minority faction again, and the ones willing to rebel violently a powerless minority faction of them. Doesn't that support giving mages freedom considering that the mages only decided to rebel after finally being fed up with the templars? Doesn't that show that they won't become power hungry tyrants if given freedom.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 6, 2016 20:06:12 GMT
This is the point. THIS system can not be repaired. A completely new system needed. Instead of the concentrated prison-Circles full of angry and desperate mages and angry Templars with power over this mages, need organized education, registration and control. It seems it's harder to handle, but less cruel, and there is lesser chance of privileged (but still dangerous) minority and oppressed majority of mages. Accidents will always happens, this is not justify the cruelty. Why not? That's a serious question. The thing that drove mages to reject it completely (to the extent that they actually did, since there are still Loyalists in DA:I) is that the Templars were getting no oversight, damn well knew it, and damn well acted like it. It was Meredith's unjust Annulment of the Kirkwall Circle and Lambert's hamfisted, cartoon villain attempts at controlling the mages that caused them to decide by majority vote to rebel. Absent those, the mages who hate the system could very well become a powerless minority faction again, and the ones willing to rebel violently a powerless minority faction of them. The question is: Why you think, the Circle-system are safe? Circles are not safe, rather dangerous.
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Post by xerrai on Oct 6, 2016 20:07:17 GMT
This is the point. THIS system can not be repaired. A completely new system needed. Instead of the concentrated prison-Circles full of angry and desperate mages and angry Templars with power over this mages, need organized education, registration and control. It seems it's harder to handle, but less cruel, and there is lesser chance of privileged (but still dangerous) minority and oppressed majority of mages. Accidents will always happens, this is not justify the cruelty. Why not? That's a serious question. The thing that drove mages to reject it completely (to the extent that they actually did, since there are still Loyalists in DA:I) is that the Templars were getting no oversight, damn well knew it, and damn well acted like it. It was Meredith's unjust Annulment of the Kirkwall Circle and Lambert's hamfisted, cartoon villain attempts at controlling the mages that caused them to decide by majority vote to rebel. Absent those, the mages who hate the system could very well become a powerless minority faction again, and the ones willing to rebel violently a powerless minority faction of them. This. The vote for independence only passed by a small margin, and primarily because of how the events leading to it were complicated by the Templars and the resolutionists. Otherwise most would have likely sought to stay with the Chantry. Most would not be unopposed to reform, though.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 6, 2016 20:13:14 GMT
Why not? That's a serious question. The thing that drove mages to reject it completely (to the extent that they actually did, since there are still Loyalists in DA:I) is that the Templars were getting no oversight, damn well knew it, and damn well acted like it. It was Meredith's unjust Annulment of the Kirkwall Circle and Lambert's hamfisted, cartoon villain attempts at controlling the mages that caused them to decide by majority vote to rebel. Absent those, the mages who hate the system could very well become a powerless minority faction again, and the ones willing to rebel violently a powerless minority faction of them. This. The vote for independence only passed by a small margin, and primarily because of how the events leading to it were complicated by the Templars and the resolutionists. Otherwise most would have likely sought to stay with the Chantry. Most would not be unopposed to reform, though. Most mages never lived outside the Circle. What do you think? They not afraid? But they have to learn to live outside the Circle. Look: Orana afraid from the freedom, and so many slave afraid from freedom. So: you said, the slavery is right?
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