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Post by oyabun on Oct 6, 2016 20:13:14 GMT
The spec doesn't say that the abilities of a SW are gained from the spirit,if a spirit can use fireball the SW will still be unable to do that because the only thing they again is an acess into the fade. Demons are not attracted by SW only spirits are affected by their call,the spec is called spiritual warriors after all and not demon warriors,demons do not like to approach spirits. ... where are you getting all of this? From the description of the talents of the spec,nome of them are gained from the spirits they are unchangable and they are sustained by the fade.
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Post by opuspace on Oct 6, 2016 20:15:15 GMT
Actually, I'd say Vivienne is playing the system exactly as it was meant to. It's the Templars who were manipulating it. And Vivienne is not one to allow herself to be manipulated. I certainly don't disagree that the system has broken down. But I do think conditions will improve once a proper balance is struck. (though that doesn't mean things won't break down again) Yeeeee, the system then was all kinds of crazy there. I don't disagree either that Vivienne was the only player gaming things in their favor. Shame that the game was unplayable by those who don't have the stamina for such exhaustive backbiting and watching out for figurative knives. I don't mean to say there should be no place for mages to train and study and a separate place to keep those who are a threat to others guarded, but the Circles were definitely founded on a faulty base. Since there's no perfect system, I agree with you too that once changes are made to the Circles, life can improve. There's probably always going to be need for improvements, but Inquisition's endings for each of the Circles is encouraging. Even Vivienne's rule is better than it was before (For those who cooperated).
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Post by secretrare on Oct 6, 2016 22:19:13 GMT
Logic and rationality not enough. Just look: Someone have logical arguments, why the Circle-system are important. Someone have logical arguments, why the Circle-system failed. The situation with mages is as follows:- The reality that Theodosians (and we in the real world) live under is that might is right. Why do you think people obey monarchs or the law ? Is it simply because of morals or is there something more ? There is something more and that is the monarchs and the judiciary have access to might - the capacity to exact violence (a strong capacity in the form of guards and soldiers). Therefore, they get their way. Similarly, USA is a world superpower not just because of its size, but because of the military it has. What does this have to do with magic ? Well, magic is a form of might. In Thedas, magic is the strongest and most diverse form of might. Even the most powerful non-magical items such as bows or swords have enchantments (which is magic) in them. The Orb of Fen'Harel, which was capable of rending the sky asunder, is magical. Mages are magical. That level of power attracts attention and subsequent exploitation. Whether said attention and exploitation favor the mage or disfavor the mage varies between groups. In Tevinter (and in ancient Elvhenan), mages are at the top - Because might is right. Outside Tevinter, mages are treated like a disposable utility + weapon because otherwise the power they are capable of wielding ends up being a threat to many. That is why Templars and Arvaraads exist - They are there to control the power, control the might that power can bring so it never rises to affect the might that is the status quo. At the same time, you have mages like Vivienne who exploits the system she lives under to exert her own might - Through magic, politics and seduction (she is Duke Bastien's mistress). People don't leave oil alone or nukes alone - What makes you think people would leave magic alone if it was real ? They never will - It is the nature of sentient organics to want to accumulate resources. This is why there will ultimately never be any peace or stability between mages and non-mages no matter how logical or how rational the solutions proposed are - Because might is right and magic is mighty so its right is either validated or invalidated. Sure, you can bring up the majority of mages who are decent and who want to be left alone to live their lives in peace but if history has taught me anything, it is this:- The peaceful majority are irrelevant. The majority of mages can be peaceful people and that did not stop them from screwing things up so badly time and time again. Similarly, the majority of Germans, Japanese and Russians are peaceful people and that did not stop them from committing millions and millions (literally) of barbaric murder. There is the reason the peaceful majority is referred to as the silent majority and throughout history, right up until the birth of social media, the silent majority has been pretty much irrelevant. The same is true of mages - Until we have Facebook or Twitter or Reddit in Thedas where the silent majority of mages can be properly heard and be an actual force, they will not matter in the grand scheme of things, especially when their representatives (looking at you Fiona) screws things up badly. As sad as it may sound,that's how most people live,subjugated under the "might is right" ,that's why i think that power and corruption are two sides of the same coin like the blight.
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Post by secretrare on Oct 6, 2016 22:36:19 GMT
Weak mages are not murdered in their sleep in the Circle. And to me, if you take brutal Templars out of the equation, Circle mages have a pretty sweet life. Free room and board. Free education. The ability to practice magic without fear of a lynch mob. With the First Enchanter's permission, you can even leave and pursue other activities. Far cry better than peasant life. Especially in more downtrodden lands like Orlais. No thanks, the education would be great but the thought of being trapped in one place staring at the same walls for years on years would drive me nuts. Solipsism would settle in, books would lose their stimulation, depression would smother out any pleasure. I've had moments of being trapped at home financially and even though it was comfortable, it was hellish. Comfort =\= happiness. EDIT: Also, getting permission to leave like the way you ask a teacher for a hall pass would be extremely damaging to my self confidence in my own ability. I'd like to be trusted to walk to the market for bagels and pastries and be back without being treated like a brain damaged child. I know that's not the intention, but a mage's control most certainly can be affected by whether they're treated as adults or children. Freedom is a matter of how someone feel rather than a matter of space. There may be people who are in a circle who feel more free than those outside of it,just look at Fin,so it is a matter of how someone feel about it.
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Post by xerrai on Oct 6, 2016 22:37:48 GMT
It still does not help the case because Vivienne learned how to manipulate the system. Others cannot be expected to keep up with stacked odds because everyone was given different skills and backgrounds. Even the background of an Amell or Surana found a proven mage balked at being given freedom to go outside. And this is where I'm asking why were the leaders of each Circle were not coordinating, talking, comparing notes on how to keep the residents happy and useful? They had top magical research, resources and staff to look into improving lives and keeping the casualties down. They could have been helping improve conditions, increase communication between Circles, perhaps arrange means of shortening travel so other Templars can back up an overrun tower. It all seems a waste because all this talent was available and none of it was used to prevent the war that could have been preempted had they given the residents a voice. Actually, I'd say Vivienne is playing the system exactly as it was meant to. It's the Templars who were manipulating it. And Vivienne is not one to allow herself to be manipulated. I certainly don't disagree that the system has broken down. But I do think conditions will improve once a proper balance is struck. (though that doesn't mean things won't break down again) Within the Circle, certainly. People make First Enchanter all the time. As player of the Game/member of the court/Court Mage? Yes and no. What she did was akin to a commoner rising to the status of a lesser noble. Sure, people say that the system was meant to allow that. But we all know that is only lip service, and that commoners trying to rise their status through the game is actually frowned upon--if not actively sabotaged. Viv had to deal with several assassination attempts for years before she was in a secure positon. But within the Circle system itself, yes, she rose through it like all other First Enchanters. Nothing spectacular there. But imo the gateway for manipulation in the system lies when the "trinity" is not respected. The Templars are supposed to work with the First Enchanter and Chantry officials. But the Chantry seems content to merely have 'ownership' of the Circles while leaving the Templars and mages to govern themselves. Which is bad when you remember that it is the Chantry that can set the overall policy for Circles and Templars alike. Which is to say nothing of the Chantry sects that actively support Templars over mages. So while i'll agree that it was mostly the Templars abusing the system, I do want to bring into focus how the Chantry should share some of the burden too.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 6, 2016 22:39:21 GMT
No thanks, the education would be great but the thought of being trapped in one place staring at the same walls for years on years would drive me nuts. Solipsism would settle in, books would lose their stimulation, depression would smother out any pleasure. I've had moments of being trapped at home financially and even though it was comfortable, it was hellish. Comfort =\= happiness. EDIT: Also, getting permission to leave like the way you ask a teacher for a hall pass would be extremely damaging to my self confidence in my own ability. I'd like to be trusted to walk to the market for bagels and pastries and be back without being treated like a brain damaged child. I know that's not the intention, but a mage's control most certainly can be affected by whether they're treated as adults or children. Freedom is a matter of how someone feel rather than a matter of space. There may be people who are in a circle who feel more free than those outside of it,just look at Fin,so it is a matter of how someone feel about it. Freedom is hard. Yes. Fin afraid of the outside world, just as Orana. Then we can say: the slavery is good?
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Post by secretrare on Oct 6, 2016 22:46:42 GMT
Freedom is a matter of how someone feel rather than a matter of space. There may be people who are in a circle who feel more free than those outside of it,just look at Fin,so it is a matter of how someone feel about it. Freedom is hard. Yes. Fin afraid of the outside world, just as Orana. Then we can said: the slavery is good? We can say that freedom isn't an easy concept to define,the word itself is so generic that it is actually out of place in many cases,in this case "rights" being a more appropriate word.
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Post by opuspace on Oct 6, 2016 22:48:50 GMT
Freedom is a matter of how someone feel rather than a matter of space. There may be people who are in a circle who feel more free than those outside of it,just look at Fin,so it is a matter of how someone feel about it. True, but the suicide attempts in the Circle do reference the isolation causing damage so having some content with it does not make the others who suffer under it negligible.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 6, 2016 22:51:23 GMT
Freedom is hard. Yes. Fin afraid of the outside world, just as Orana. Then we can said: the slavery is good? We can say that freedom isn't an easy concept to define,the word itself is so generic that it is actually out of place in many cases,in this case "rights" being a more appropriate word. We talking about "rights"... not from some intangible freedom.
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Post by thesupremedarkone on Oct 6, 2016 23:18:39 GMT
Freedom is a matter of how someone feel rather than a matter of space. There may be people who are in a circle who feel more free than those outside of it,just look at Fin,so it is a matter of how someone feel about it. Freedom is hard. Yes. Fin afraid of the outside world, just as Orana. Then we can said: the slavery is good? Funny that Finn is mentioned considering WOT confirmed HE NEVER RETURNED TO THE CIRCLE AFTER WITCH HUNT. Explain that.
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Post by secretrare on Oct 7, 2016 0:52:21 GMT
Freedom is hard. Yes. Fin afraid of the outside world, just as Orana. Then we can said: the slavery is good? Funny that Finn is mentioned considering WOT confirmed HE NEVER RETURNED TO THE CIRCLE AFTER WITCH HUNT. Explain that. Why the hell you had to type giant letters on me,just to prove how you're right?It's phatetic Finn had his permission to leave so what he did after that isn't my concern i was just reporting his dialogues for a totally different debate.
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Post by Prince on Oct 7, 2016 1:13:55 GMT
Freedom or necessity it doesn't matter,ultimatly the destiny of all men is desperation.Those free lose themselves in the realm of possibilities and choices,those without freedom live under necessity and feel like prisoners.
Soren Kierkegaard
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Post by thesupremedarkone on Oct 7, 2016 1:14:26 GMT
Funny that Finn is mentioned considering WOT confirmed HE NEVER RETURNED TO THE CIRCLE AFTER WITCH HUNT. Explain that. Why the hell you had to type giant letters on me,just to prove how you're right?It's phatetic Finn had his permission to leave so what he did after that isn't my concern i was just reporting his dialogues for a totally different debate. Proof that the permission things lets you leave the circle permanently? Asunder indicated that was just leaving temporarily on the condition you'd return to the circle, not straight up running away. If he was supposed to return, it says a lot that he never went back.
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Post by Iakus on Oct 7, 2016 3:56:21 GMT
Actually, I'd say Vivienne is playing the system exactly as it was meant to. It's the Templars who were manipulating it. And Vivienne is not one to allow herself to be manipulated. I certainly don't disagree that the system has broken down. But I do think conditions will improve once a proper balance is struck. (though that doesn't mean things won't break down again) Within the Circle, certainly. People make First Enchanter all the time. As player of the Game/member of the court/Court Mage? Yes and no. What she did was akin to a commoner rising to the status of a lesser noble. Sure, people say that the system was meant to allow that. But we all know that is only lip service, and that commoners trying to rise their status through the game is actually frowned upon--if not actively sabotaged. Viv had to deal with several assassination attempts for years before she was in a secure positon. But within the Circle system itself, yes, she rose through it like all other First Enchanters. Nothing spectacular there. But imo the gateway for manipulation in the system lies when the "trinity" is not respected. The Templars are supposed to work with the First Enchanter and Chantry officials. But the Chantry seems content to merely have 'ownership' of the Circles while leaving the Templars and mages to govern themselves. Which is bad when you remember that it is the Chantry that can set the overall policy for Circles and Templars alike. Which is to say nothing of the Chantry sects that actively support Templars over mages. So while i'll agree that it was mostly the Templars abusing the system, I do want to bring into focus how the Chantry should share some of the burden too. What I mean is, as First Enchanter, Vivienne seemed to run the Montsimmard Circle the way it was meant to be run. She didn't allow herself to be bullied, yet seemed to remain on friendly terms with the Templars there. Also remember, the previous Divine to Justinia ruled for fifty years, was already rather anti-mage, and in her last few years (while her mind was failing) practically a puppet of the Templar hardliners.
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Post by rapscallioness on Oct 7, 2016 4:28:06 GMT
Both sides get on my nerves. Tbh, I'm not particularly invested in either.
The issue with how mages are treated in southern Thedas is, for me, an issue with them being basically condemned for what they Might do. What they are capable of doing. Not what they have actually done. How do you defend yourself against something like that?
Although, the main reasons the mages are feared in Thedas during DAI was because of the attempted assassination of the Divine, and Anders blowing up the Chantry. But it doesn't take magical ability to do either of those things.
Mages do need training on how to use their magic and protect themselves and others. This should be done by other mages, not the Templars. Mages are perfectly capable of killing abominations, too. You don;t need the Templars looming about the Circles. Templars should be out and about.
There is this power imbalance in both southern and, on the flip side, northern Thedas. An imbalance that is woven into the society, from belief systems to available opportunities.
The mages do have an inherent advantage with their power as well as the awesome responsibility that brings. But you can't just lock people up for something they could do.
I think the Templars are needed more to be out and about "patrolling" for abuses and such. As well as protect mages on occasion from some crazy "normal".
At the end the day , though, it has to be about trust. You have to simply trust each other, A society cannot function without trust. We trust each other every single day. We trust each other not to drive up on a sidewalk and kill us, although someone might. Someone could. Someone has. But everything we do requires that we trust each other, otherwise..well, we could not exist.
First, however, the societal power imbalance on both sides of Thedas must be remedied, or you will never have stability. But things like hiding away the chants about Shartan, for example, has nothing to do with fear of abominations and magic. It's pure power politics. One segment of a society has power , and wants to hold on to it. Idk specifics about Tevinter, but I'm sure they've done their own censorship to boost themselves and keep others in their place.
I mean, let's say they use the Seeker process for reversing the Rite of Tranquility, and mages no longer need to fear being possessed. I don;t think powers that be will actually be happy about that. I don;t think the true, or evolved and corrupted, purpose of mage oppression is only about abominations. I think it has become a convenient justification for oppressing a powerful segment of their society. So, even with the Seeker solution, I think there would still be significant problems.
Overall, it's about power and it's potential abuse. Yes, the mages have a power advantage over normals, but normals also have a power advantage in the form of the "State". The religious belief that all mages have to answer,and are to be mistrusted, for the actions of a few that happened eons ago; and by extension the laws that have been put into place to restrict all mages.
In Tevinter you have the mages that are abusing their powers for Power.
I've played them both. I like them both, and they somehow also both get on my nerves.
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Post by thesupremedarkone on Oct 7, 2016 6:13:10 GMT
Within the Circle, certainly. People make First Enchanter all the time. As player of the Game/member of the court/Court Mage? Yes and no. What she did was akin to a commoner rising to the status of a lesser noble. Sure, people say that the system was meant to allow that. But we all know that is only lip service, and that commoners trying to rise their status through the game is actually frowned upon--if not actively sabotaged. Viv had to deal with several assassination attempts for years before she was in a secure positon. But within the Circle system itself, yes, she rose through it like all other First Enchanters. Nothing spectacular there. But imo the gateway for manipulation in the system lies when the "trinity" is not respected. The Templars are supposed to work with the First Enchanter and Chantry officials. But the Chantry seems content to merely have 'ownership' of the Circles while leaving the Templars and mages to govern themselves. Which is bad when you remember that it is the Chantry that can set the overall policy for Circles and Templars alike. Which is to say nothing of the Chantry sects that actively support Templars over mages. So while i'll agree that it was mostly the Templars abusing the system, I do want to bring into focus how the Chantry should share some of the burden too. What I mean is, as First Enchanter, Vivienne seemed to run the Montsimmard Circle the way it was meant to be run. She didn't allow herself to be bullied, yet seemed to remain on friendly terms with the Templars there. Also remember, the previous Divine to Justinia ruled for fifty years, was already rather anti-mage, and in her last few years (while her mind was failing) practically a puppet of the Templar hardliners. I'm pretty sure Vivienne was named First Enchanter literally at the same time the mages rebelled and thus she never actually got to run a Circle as first enchanter.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Oct 7, 2016 6:57:01 GMT
Why not? That's a serious question. The thing that drove mages to reject it completely (to the extent that they actually did, since there are still Loyalists in DA:I) is that the Templars were getting no oversight, damn well knew it, and damn well acted like it. It was Meredith's unjust Annulment of the Kirkwall Circle and Lambert's hamfisted, cartoon villain attempts at controlling the mages that caused them to decide by majority vote to rebel. Absent those, the mages who hate the system could very well become a powerless minority faction again, and the ones willing to rebel violently a powerless minority faction of them. The question is: Why you think, the Circle-system are safe? Circles are not safe, rather dangerous. "Safe" is a strong word for anything that involves mages, isn't it? The fact is, I don't think the Circles are safe. I think that mages being anywhere automatically makes that place more dangerous. That's why I advocate for the Circles: because I think the cities are safer if the only mages in them are relatively safe mages who are there temporarily, and that the Circles can be made relatively safe by putting as few people who don't have magical power (either by lyrium or by their own nature) in them as possible, because if a shitstorm starts it's best to keep people who are completely incapable of handing it out of the way. That's also why I don't think mages should be allowed to raise their own children: in an emergency, those children are a liability, and an emergency can happen at any time. This. The vote for independence only passed by a small margin, and primarily because of how the events leading to it were complicated by the Templars and the resolutionists. Otherwise most would have likely sought to stay with the Chantry. Most would not be unopposed to reform, though. Most mages never lived outside the Circle. What do you think? They not afraid? But they have to learn to live outside the Circle. Look: Orana afraid from the freedom, and so many slave afraid from freedom. So: you said, the slavery is right? Why do they have to learn to live outside the Circle? I can see a reason to put a freed slave through the trauma of learning to be outside the only life they've ever known: namely, because that life is all about being forced to serve another's whim, and being drained of blood if a mage needs more power. But you're putting mages who don't want to be freed, and might go abomination from the stress (because as we've established, you don't need to consciously choose to go abomination) through it for no reason other than to make them free of the Circle, in a world where it's debatable how free anyone but the very richest non-nobles are. (Nobles don't even get to choose who they marry. That's not freedom.) Why not? That's a serious question. The thing that drove mages to reject it completely (to the extent that they actually did, since there are still Loyalists in DA:I) is that the Templars were getting no oversight, damn well knew it, and damn well acted like it. It was Meredith's unjust Annulment of the Kirkwall Circle and Lambert's hamfisted, cartoon villain attempts at controlling the mages that caused them to decide by majority vote to rebel. Absent those, the mages who hate the system could very well become a powerless minority faction again, and the ones willing to rebel violently a powerless minority faction of them. Doesn't that support giving mages freedom considering that the mages only decided to rebel after finally being fed up with the templars? Doesn't that show that they won't become power hungry tyrants if given freedom. That mages don't want to become power hungry tyrants is a serious oversimplification. The nutjobs causing problems in the Hinterlands absolutely wanted to become tyrants, and I think Linnea (the hardline resentful anti-Templar in Redcliffe Tavern) wanted all along to become a tyrant as well. We only see her outright tyranting in the Bad Future, but she supported the Tevinter alliance even after the regular citizens suffered because of it. And at any rate that's not my main concern: mages who want to be power hungry tyrants can be handled in ways other than the Circle. (Although doing so effectively requires either mage assistance or for the mages to just do it themselves, and while the mages said they were going to do it themselves in order to justify leaving the Circles they didn't deliver.) My main concern is handling abominations, and I don't think I've ever seen anyone suggest a better system for that than the Circle: even most pro-mages acknowledge that it's necessary at least until the mage has been trained.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Oct 7, 2016 7:22:04 GMT
... where are you getting all of this? From the description of the talents of the spec,nome of them are gained from the spirits they are unchangable and they are sustained by the fade. The description of the last ability in the chain explicitly states that it's drawing from benevolent spirits, as does the description of the specialization itself.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 7, 2016 11:03:06 GMT
The question is: Why you think, the Circle-system are safe? Circles are not safe, rather dangerous. "Safe" is a strong word for anything that involves mages, isn't it? The fact is, I don't think the Circles are safe. I think that mages being anywhere automatically makes that place more dangerous. That's why I advocate for the Circles: because I think the cities are safer if the only mages in them are relatively safe mages who are there temporarily, and that the Circles can be made relatively safe by putting as few people who don't have magical power (either by lyrium or by their own nature) in them as possible, because if a shitstorm starts it's best to keep people who are completely incapable of handing it out of the way. That's also why I don't think mages should be allowed to raise their own children: in an emergency, those children are a liability, and an emergency can happen at any time. Most mages never lived outside the Circle. What do you think? They not afraid? But they have to learn to live outside the Circle. Look: Orana afraid from the freedom, and so many slave afraid from freedom. So: you said, the slavery is right? Why do they have to learn to live outside the Circle? I can see a reason to put a freed slave through the trauma of learning to be outside the only life they've ever known: namely, because that life is all about being forced to serve another's whim, and being drained of blood if a mage needs more power. But you're putting mages who don't want to be freed, and might go abomination from the stress (because as we've established, you don't need to consciously choose to go abomination) through it for no reason other than to make them free of the Circle, in a world where it's debatable how free anyone but the very richest non-nobles are. (Nobles don't even get to choose who they marry. That's not freedom.) I talked about the Circle-SYSTEM, safety, not about the Circles safety. I talked about the people's safety, not just about the mages' safety. The system dangerous for ALL, not only for the mages. The mages don't able to raise a child? Because? Do you think you / Chantry is more concerned about mages' children as the mages themselves? This is sick... (Or? Would born too many mage children, if the Chantry let them to have their OWN child?) Likely that it is badly written, but if the threat is so great, as you think, Thedas would have long since destroyed by the magical accident ... Nobles able to run away from their family, without being criminal... Which mage afraid of him/herself, may able to ask for tranquility, or death. And the because the Circles still exist as school, academy and library, some mages can stay and working there.
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Post by oyabun on Oct 7, 2016 15:16:26 GMT
From the description of the talents of the spec,nome of them are gained from the spirits they are unchangable and they are sustained by the fade. The description of the last ability in the chain explicitly states that it's drawing from benevolent spirits, as does the description of the specialization itself. The description of the last ability as well as the one of the other 3 don't say that,they just say that the SW connect to the fade to evade attacks,being more resistant to spells and more fast,they don't gain the spells of the spirits.
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Post by Walter Black on Oct 7, 2016 16:00:16 GMT
11) Eh? This last one makes no sense at all. Templar supporters are suspicious of spiriits for a variety of reasons, I'd put a huge portrait of Anders at the fore front and Cole right next to him. I was speaking in a meta sense. Notice how one of the chief positions of most Templar fans is how better off Thedas would be without magic, Spirits and Demons, the Fade, and so on. Without these concepts, Dragon Age wouldn't be high fantasy, but alternate history. Could a pure reality based role playing game work? Maybe, maybe not, but it wouldn't be Dragon Age.
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Post by xerrai on Oct 7, 2016 16:34:13 GMT
What I mean is, as First Enchanter, Vivienne seemed to run the Montsimmard Circle the way it was meant to be run. She didn't allow herself to be bullied, yet seemed to remain on friendly terms with the Templars there. Also remember, the previous Divine to Justinia ruled for fifty years, was already rather anti-mage, and in her last few years (while her mind was failing) practically a puppet of the Templar hardliners. I'm pretty sure Vivienne was named First Enchanter literally at the same time the mages rebelled and thus she never actually got to run a Circle as first enchanter. A codex entry says she was elected First Enchanter at an age young enough to cause scandal, which, if what the Nightmare demon implied was true, means she has been First Enchanter for quite awhile now.
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Post by Dabrikishaw on Oct 9, 2016 3:19:12 GMT
11) Eh? This last one makes no sense at all. Templar supporters are suspicious of spiriits for a variety of reasons, I'd put a huge portrait of Anders at the fore front and Cole right next to him. I was speaking in a meta sense. Notice how one of the chief positions of most Templar fans is how better off Thedas would be without magic, Spirits and Demons, the Fade, and so on. Without these concepts, Dragon Age wouldn't be high fantasy, but alternate history. Could a pure reality based role playing game work? Maybe, maybe not, but it wouldn't be Dragon Age. I made a similar point years ago on the old Bioware forums, and received similar responses to the one you came to. The Dragon Age Setting is one shaped by the magic in it, so you'd lose much of the series' identity by taking it out. Not unless you want the close the book on a franchise.
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Post by xerrai on Oct 9, 2016 23:13:07 GMT
I was speaking in a meta sense. Notice how one of the chief positions of most Templar fans is how better off Thedas would be without magic, Spirits and Demons, the Fade, and so on. Without these concepts, Dragon Age wouldn't be high fantasy, but alternate history. Could a pure reality based role playing game work? Maybe, maybe not, but it wouldn't be Dragon Age. I made a similar point years ago on the old Bioware forums, and received similar responses to the one you came to. The Dragon Age Setting is one shaped by the magic in it, so you'd lose much of the series' identity by taking it out. Not unless you want the close the book on a franchise. I'm more concerned about the fallout would be from forcibly removing magic. Like, would the titans outright die? We still don't know what lyrium is other than that it seems to be another form of magic in Thedas. I really don't want to see these gigantic beings either spazing out as they die or finding out what happens when these massive being presumably decay. That alone would probably get rid of several subterranean ecosystems. Then you have consider the fauna that may or may not rely on magic in some capacity to exist. The most obvious example is felandaris, a plant that can only grow where the veil is thin. But are there other plants that rely on magical energy? Only really really small amounts of it? We already know that the fauna in the time of ancient elvhenan was drastically different than what can be found today. And perhaps the biggest possible con of all: that humans and elves will be severely mentally affected by the complete lack of fade (the presumed method of getting rid of magic). Only dwarves (and maybe qunari) have been shown to live normally without access to the fade. But the only known instances of human or elves being completely cut from the fade (as in, unable to even visit the fade via dreams cut off) is the Tranquil. Even non-mages can still have access to the fade by dreaming. They might have a chance if the sealing of magic was done over several generations, but if it was instantaneous? I honestly worry. It's like thinking of what may happen when all of the Old Gods are dead. On one hand, all future blights will be eradicated and we can see a Thedas without darkspawn. Great! Awesome! But on the other hand, we may have to deal with something far worse as we realize that the Old Gods were part of why Thedas lasted as long as it did. It's basically dealing with a gamble that says you'll either earn a brighter better future or a future more horrible than you imagine. No in between.
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Post by oyabun on Oct 10, 2016 0:51:41 GMT
I made a similar point years ago on the old Bioware forums, and received similar responses to the one you came to. The Dragon Age Setting is one shaped by the magic in it, so you'd lose much of the series' identity by taking it out. Not unless you want the close the book on a franchise. I'm more concerned about the fallout would be from forcibly removing magic. Like, would the titans outright die? We still don't know what lyrium is other than that it seems to be another form of magic in Thedas. I really don't want to see these gigantic beings either spazing out as they die or finding out what happens when these massive being presumably decay. That alone would probably get rid of several subterranean ecosystems. Then you have consider the fauna that may or may not rely on magic in some capacity to exist. The most obvious example is felandaris, a plant that can only grow where the veil is thin. But are there other plants that rely on magical energy? Only really really small amounts of it? We already know that the fauna in the time of ancient elvhenan was drastically different than what can be found today. And perhaps the biggest possible con of all: that humans and elves will be severely mentally affected by the complete lack of fade (the presumed method of getting rid of magic). Only dwarves (and maybe qunari) have been shown to live normally without access to the fade. But the only known instances of human or elves being completely cut from the fade (as in, unable to even visit the fade via dreams cut off) is the Tranquil. Even non-mages can still have access to the fade by dreaming. They might have a chance if the sealing of magic was done over several generations, but if it was instantaneous? I honestly worry. It's like thinking of what may happen when all of the Old Gods are dead. On one hand, all future blights will be eradicated and we can see a Thedas without darkspawn. Great! Awesome! But on the other hand, we may have to deal with something far worse as we realize that the Old Gods were part of why Thedas lasted as long as it did. It's basically dealing with a gamble that says you'll either earn a brighter better future or a future more horrible than you imagine. No in between. As far as i'm concerned killing old gods is good and does not have any downside,i don't understand what evidences people have to imply the contrary other than use the arguments of a lunatic(Solas) or the belief of a poor deluded witch who was brainwashed by Flemeth. Other than those of the DR fan club who saved Urthemiel because of fear for themselves i don't see anyone supporting this argument.Killing them is a good thing,preserving them on the other hand is the gamble.
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