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Post by xerrai on Oct 10, 2016 2:25:09 GMT
I'm more concerned about the fallout would be from forcibly removing magic. Like, would the titans outright die? We still don't know what lyrium is other than that it seems to be another form of magic in Thedas. I really don't want to see these gigantic beings either spazing out as they die or finding out what happens when these massive being presumably decay. That alone would probably get rid of several subterranean ecosystems. Then you have consider the fauna that may or may not rely on magic in some capacity to exist. The most obvious example is felandaris, a plant that can only grow where the veil is thin. But are there other plants that rely on magical energy? Only really really small amounts of it? We already know that the fauna in the time of ancient elvhenan was drastically different than what can be found today. And perhaps the biggest possible con of all: that humans and elves will be severely mentally affected by the complete lack of fade (the presumed method of getting rid of magic). Only dwarves (and maybe qunari) have been shown to live normally without access to the fade. But the only known instances of human or elves being completely cut from the fade (as in, unable to even visit the fade via dreams cut off) is the Tranquil. Even non-mages can still have access to the fade by dreaming. They might have a chance if the sealing of magic was done over several generations, but if it was instantaneous? I honestly worry. It's like thinking of what may happen when all of the Old Gods are dead. On one hand, all future blights will be eradicated and we can see a Thedas without darkspawn. Great! Awesome! But on the other hand, we may have to deal with something far worse as we realize that the Old Gods were part of why Thedas lasted as long as it did. It's basically dealing with a gamble that says you'll either earn a brighter better future or a future more horrible than you imagine. No in between. As far as i'm concerned killing old gods is good and does not have any downside,i don't understand what evidences people have to imply the contrary other than use the arguments of a lunatic(Solas) or the belief of a poor deluded witch who was brainwashed by Flemeth. Other than those of the DR fan club who saved Urthemiel because of fear for themselves i don't see anyone supporting this argument.Killing them is a good thing,preserving them on the other hand is the gamble. A few codex entries, notably from the dwarves (which constantly battle the darkspawn and typically believe the darkspawn just appeared underground one day instead of being an ancient curse from evil magisters), imply that should the Old Gods die out the darkspawn will have nowhere to go but up. Some scoff at the idea that the surface thinks its safe just because the darkspawn are not crawling out when Orzamaar has to deal with them practically every day. They believe that when the day comes, the surface will deal with a blight that will never end. Basically the question lies less with the Old Gods dying and more with how the darkspawn will act once they are gone. From what we can tell, it is the broodmothers and the taint from which the darkspawn arise, not the Old Gods. Meaning that when they are gone, the darkspawn will still remain, only this time they will no longer obsess over trying to reach the Old Gods. it is true that the darkspawn hold little organizational ability without an Old God to lead them but they don't have to, a mindless hoard can still do damage. And we have already seen how some darkspawn (the Mother and her darkspawn followers) react from being taken away from he Old God's song...
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Oct 10, 2016 6:08:27 GMT
"Safe" is a strong word for anything that involves mages, isn't it? The fact is, I don't think the Circles are safe. I think that mages being anywhere automatically makes that place more dangerous. That's why I advocate for the Circles: because I think the cities are safer if the only mages in them are relatively safe mages who are there temporarily, and that the Circles can be made relatively safe by putting as few people who don't have magical power (either by lyrium or by their own nature) in them as possible, because if a shitstorm starts it's best to keep people who are completely incapable of handing it out of the way. That's also why I don't think mages should be allowed to raise their own children: in an emergency, those children are a liability, and an emergency can happen at any time. Why do they have to learn to live outside the Circle? I can see a reason to put a freed slave through the trauma of learning to be outside the only life they've ever known: namely, because that life is all about being forced to serve another's whim, and being drained of blood if a mage needs more power. But you're putting mages who don't want to be freed, and might go abomination from the stress (because as we've established, you don't need to consciously choose to go abomination) through it for no reason other than to make them free of the Circle, in a world where it's debatable how free anyone but the very richest non-nobles are. (Nobles don't even get to choose who they marry. That's not freedom.) I talked about the Circle-SYSTEM, safety, not about the Circles safety. I talked about the people's safety, not just about the mages' safety. The system dangerous for ALL, not only for the mages. The mages don't able to raise a child? Because? Do you think you / Chantry is more concerned about mages' children as the mages themselves? This is sick... (Or? Would born too many mage children, if the Chantry let them to have their OWN child?) Likely that it is badly written, but if the threat is so great, as you think, Thedas would have long since destroyed by the magical accident ... Nobles able to run away from their family, without being criminal... I covered the entire system too. In fact, I'm actually focusing on the people's safety. I covered that having mages anywhere makes that anywhere more dangerous than it would have been, and that while the Circles become really dangerous at least the people there have a better chance of defending themselves. If the mages are more dangerous to themselves and others if they become distressed, there's still the mitigating factors that the situation is far from the general population and not surrounded by helpless people... and lets not pretend cites don't have things in them that can distress a mage. I gave you a reason why it's dangerous to everyone to have children in the Circle. Even if the Chantry is discouraging mage children for a different reason, that doesn't really answer the reason I gave, does it? I agree that the threat isn't world ending, but does it need to be? Does a threat need to be world ending to take drastic action to mitigate it? Having to run away to choose who you marry still isn't freedom. I'm not saying that they're not freer than mages, merely that it's debatable how free they are. Which is relevant because the general lack of freedom in Thedas effects what mages can find even if they are freed of the Circles. And nobles are a slim minority. The peasants? In Orlais, they're serfs. That's no freer than being a Circle mage. Human peasants in Ferelden are freer than that, but they're still at the mercy of superiors who are not really held to the law. And elves are only slightly above Circle Mages in terms of personal freedom no matter where they are, and unlike the Circle mages they can't be absolutely sure they'll be able to meet needs far more basic than that. (Or close to absolutely sure, since I'm aware that Cole starved to death.) You're asking that normals risk more than you think for less gain for the mages, and there are far fewer mages gaining than there are mundanes being asked to take on this risk. A mundane isn't worth more than a mage, but the converse is true too, and if you accept that it is then a hundred mundanes should be worth more than one mage by a lot.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 10, 2016 11:52:48 GMT
I talked about the Circle-SYSTEM, safety, not about the Circles safety. I talked about the people's safety, not just about the mages' safety. The system dangerous for ALL, not only for the mages. The mages don't able to raise a child? Because? Do you think you / Chantry is more concerned about mages' children as the mages themselves? This is sick... (Or? Would born too many mage children, if the Chantry let them to have their OWN child?) Likely that it is badly written, but if the threat is so great, as you think, Thedas would have long since destroyed by the magical accident ... Nobles able to run away from their family, without being criminal... I covered the entire system too. In fact, I'm actually focusing on the people's safety. I covered that having mages anywhere makes that anywhere more dangerous than it would have been, and that while the Circles become really dangerous at least the people there have a better chance of defending themselves. If the mages are more dangerous to themselves and others if they become distressed, there's still the mitigating factors that the situation is far from the general population and not surrounded by helpless people... and lets not pretend cites don't have things in them that can distress a mage. I gave you a reason why it's dangerous to everyone to have children in the Circle. Even if the Chantry is discouraging mage children for a different reason, that doesn't really answer the reason I gave, does it? I agree that the threat isn't world ending, but does it need to be? Does a threat need to be world ending to take drastic action to mitigate it? Having to run away to choose who you marry still isn't freedom. I'm not saying that they're not freer than mages, merely that it's debatable how free they are. Which is relevant because the general lack of freedom in Thedas effects what mages can find even if they are freed of the Circles. And nobles are a slim minority. The peasants? In Orlais, they're serfs. That's no freer than being a Circle mage. Human peasants in Ferelden are freer than that, but they're still at the mercy of superiors who are not really held to the law. And elves are only slightly above Circle Mages in terms of personal freedom no matter where they are, and unlike the Circle mages they can't be absolutely sure they'll be able to meet needs far more basic than that. (Or close to absolutely sure, since I'm aware that Cole starved to death.) You're asking that normals risk more than you think for less gain for the mages, and there are far fewer mages gaining than there are mundanes being asked to take on this risk. A mundane isn't worth more than a mage, but the converse is true too, and if you accept that it is thwn a hundred mundanes should be worth more than one mage by a lot. People have better chance to defending themselves against what? Against the weakened Veil? Against the untrained mage children/apostates? Against their own fear? To take away their children from loving parents to protect the children from their parents: hypocrisy. Mages are not aggressive perverted beasts (okay, some mage perhaps... just as some non-mage) I'm not talking about, that the parents need to teach their children, not all parents are able to teach well. Not again about peasants and city elves etc. in this relation! As I said before, this is Dorian's wording of the slavery... (so much slaves lives better life, than the peasants or the elves in the Alienage) this "prove" the grandness of slavery for the slaves...
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Post by Ieldra on Oct 10, 2016 14:01:52 GMT
(Sorry. My rather long text got deleted in posting). No time to rewrite it atm.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Oct 10, 2016 20:50:24 GMT
I covered the entire system too. In fact, I'm actually focusing on the people's safety. I covered that having mages anywhere makes that anywhere more dangerous than it would have been, and that while the Circles become really dangerous at least the people there have a better chance of defending themselves. If the mages are more dangerous to themselves and others if they become distressed, there's still the mitigating factors that the situation is far from the general population and not surrounded by helpless people... and lets not pretend cites don't have things in them that can distress a mage. I gave you a reason why it's dangerous to everyone to have children in the Circle. Even if the Chantry is discouraging mage children for a different reason, that doesn't really answer the reason I gave, does it? I agree that the threat isn't world ending, but does it need to be? Does a threat need to be world ending to take drastic action to mitigate it? Having to run away to choose who you marry still isn't freedom. I'm not saying that they're not freer than mages, merely that it's debatable how free they are. Which is relevant because the general lack of freedom in Thedas effects what mages can find even if they are freed of the Circles. And nobles are a slim minority. The peasants? In Orlais, they're serfs. That's no freer than being a Circle mage. Human peasants in Ferelden are freer than that, but they're still at the mercy of superiors who are not really held to the law. And elves are only slightly above Circle Mages in terms of personal freedom no matter where they are, and unlike the Circle mages they can't be absolutely sure they'll be able to meet needs far more basic than that. (Or close to absolutely sure, since I'm aware that Cole starved to death.) You're asking that normals risk more than you think for less gain for the mages, and there are far fewer mages gaining than there are mundanes being asked to take on this risk. A mundane isn't worth more than a mage, but the converse is true too, and if you accept that it is thwn a hundred mundanes should be worth more than one mage by a lot. People have better chance to defending themselves against what? Against the weakened Veil? Against the untrained mage children/apostates? Against their own fear? Against abominations, maleficarum, and anything that might come through the weakened Veil. Okay, first off I don't see which of my own principles I'm not upholding by doing that. You're going to need to explain that one to me. Second: it's not just their own parents I'm protecting them from, although that is part of it since anyone can become an abomination whether or not they really want to. (In case you've forgotten.) Abominations and maleficarum are still going to happen in the Circle. If one is caught, it's probably going to become a serious fight. Children in the middle of a serious fight are liabilities, and liable to die. If anything I'd be betraying my principles if I allowed children I don't know are mages to live in the Circle. Unless I'm missing something, your system would wind up turning the mages into peasants and alienage elves... assuming of course that they don't just take over and create a second Tevinter. So to what extent such people are better off than the mages is relevant unless you have some system for making sure that's not what they become. In particular the extent to which their lives improve is relevant to whether we can ask that a whole bunch of people suddenly live more dangerous lives due to the proximity of mages in order to facilitate that improvement.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 10, 2016 21:00:24 GMT
People have better chance to defending themselves against what? Against the weakened Veil? Against the untrained mage children/apostates? Against their own fear? Against abominations, maleficarum, and anything that might come through the weakened Veil. Okay, first off I don't see which of my own principles I'm not upholding by doing that. You're going to need to explain that one to me. Second: it's not just their own parents I'm protecting them from, although that is part of it since anyone can become an abomination whether or not they really want to. (In case you've forgotten.) Abominations and maleficarum are still going to happen in the Circle. If one is caught, it's probably going to become a serious fight. Children in the middle of a serious fight are liabilities, and liable to die. If anything I'd be betraying my principles if I allowed children I don't know are mages to live in the Circle. Unless I'm missing something, your system would wind up turning the mages into peasants and alienage elves... assuming of course that they don't just take over and create a second Tevinter. So to what extent such people are better off than the mages is relevant unless you have some system for making sure that's not what they become. In particular the extent to which their lives improve is relevant to whether we can ask that a whole bunch of people suddenly live more dangerous lives due to the proximity of mages in order to facilitate that improvement. Tevinter live and well. where this abominations? Of course, the mage children in the Circles are NOT children... good to know. I don't think, that the children need the Chantry's protection. I think, they are more happy with their parents. Okay, okay, once again: the peasants HAVE LIFE, the mages DON'T. Only the privileged mages. THIS is the important different. And don't forget: a mage rare and useful thing. I think, hey will not starve to death.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Oct 10, 2016 21:09:21 GMT
Against abominations, maleficarum, and anything that might come through the weakened Veil. Okay, first off I don't see which of my own principles I'm not upholding by doing that. You're going to need to explain that one to me. Second: it's not just their own parents I'm protecting them from, although that is part of it since anyone can become an abomination whether or not they really want to. (In case you've forgotten.) Abominations and maleficarum are still going to happen in the Circle. If one is caught, it's probably going to become a serious fight. Children in the middle of a serious fight are liabilities, and liable to die. If anything I'd be betraying my principles if I allowed children I don't know are mages to live in the Circle. Unless I'm missing something, your system would wind up turning the mages into peasants and alienage elves... assuming of course that they don't just take over and create a second Tevinter. So to what extent such people are better off than the mages is relevant unless you have some system for making sure that's not what they become. In particular the extent to which their lives improve is relevant to whether we can ask that a whole bunch of people suddenly live more dangerous lives due to the proximity of mages in order to facilitate that improvement. Tevinter live and well. where this abominations? Okay, you can use Tevinter as an argument that abominations aren't likely to destroy the world, but this is a step too far. We've seen enough to know that they haven't been destroyed by abominations, but you can't argue they don't have them. Mage children are children. Nobody is disputing that. It's just that they have to be in the Circles once they awaken with their magic for all the reasons I've already given. What I'm saying is that children who haven't shown themselves to be mages yet don't have to be, and so they shouldn't be. And since the mage children are taken away before they know their parents, they can adjust to any system that is not utterly terrible. The important thing is that you're giving the mages "life" by making everyone else's lives riskier. Also, as I've already pointed out, in Orlais the peasants arguably don't have "life." A serf is someone who is bound to the land, has to follow the orders of its lord, and is a criminal if they leave. By what metric do they have "life" that doesn't apply to a Circle mage? And being rare and useful doesn't mean that they will be guaranteed a job. It's all a matter of whether or not the people who can afford a mage can find a use for one. Or for as many as are available for that matter.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 10, 2016 21:19:27 GMT
Tevinter live and well. where this abominations? 1. Okay, you can use Tevinter as an argument that abominations aren't likely to destroy the world, but this is a step too far. We've seen enough to know that they haven't been destroyed by abominations, but you can't argue they don't have them. Mage children are children. It's just that they have to be in the Circles once they awaken with their magic for all the reasons I've already given. What I'm saying is that children who haven't shown themselves to be mages yet don't have to be, and so they shouldn't be. The important thing is that you're giving the mages "life" by making everyone else's lives riskier. Also, as I've already pointed out, in Orlais the peasants arguably don't have "life." A serf is someone who is bound to the land, has to follow the orders of its lord, and is a criminal if they leave. By what metric do they have "life" that doesn't apply to a Circle mage? 1. So: the Abominations able to control when and whom to destroy? This is not accidental? 2. Okay, they are not children, as a mages are not people. 3. You said (1.): this is not accidental, so: they are able to contol it. They are just as dangerous as who can to create bombs. So if the Orlesian peasants live badly, that fact justify that all mages in Southern Thedas should live badly?
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Post by shechinah on Oct 10, 2016 21:26:35 GMT
1. Okay, you can use Tevinter as an argument that abominations aren't likely to destroy the world, but this is a step too far. We've seen enough to know that they haven't been destroyed by abominations, but you can't argue they don't have them. Mage children are children. It's just that they have to be in the Circles once they awaken with their magic for all the reasons I've already given. What I'm saying is that children who haven't shown themselves to be mages yet don't have to be, and so they shouldn't be. The important thing is that you're giving the mages "life" by making everyone else's lives riskier. Also, as I've already pointed out, in Orlais the peasants arguably don't have "life." A serf is someone who is bound to the land, has to follow the orders of its lord, and is a criminal if they leave. By what metric do they have "life" that doesn't apply to a Circle mage? 1. So: the Abominations able to control when and whom to destroy? This is not accidental? 2. Okay, they are not children, as a mages are not people. 3. You said (1.): this is not accidental, so: they are able to contol it. They are just as dangerous as who can to create bombs. So if the Orlesian peasants live badly, that fact justify that all mages in Southern Thedas should live badly? 2. riveraleswhiteflash just stated that mage children are children in the very post you quoted: "Mage children are children" 4. I think riverdaleswhiteflash meant that if mages are not considered to have lives because of the quality of their lives and their limited freedom and rights then neither do Orlesian peasents due to their quality of life being low and their freedom as well as personal rights being limited as well.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 10, 2016 21:38:50 GMT
1. So: the Abominations able to control when and whom to destroy? This is not accidental? 2. Okay, they are not children, as a mages are not people. 3. You said (1.): this is not accidental, so: they are able to contol it. They are just as dangerous as who can to create bombs. So if the Orlesian peasants live badly, that fact justify that all mages in Southern Thedas should live badly? 2. riveraleswhiteflash just stated that mage children are children in the very post you quoted: "Mage children are children" 4. I think riverdaleswhiteflash meant that if mages are not considered to have lives because of the quality of their lives and their limited freedom and rights then neither do Orlesian peasents due to their quality of life being low and their freedom as well as personal rights being limited as well.
Yes. however, the point was this. Yes, and I wrote, the existence of a wrong thing can not justify by the existence of another wrong thing... as I see.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Oct 10, 2016 21:41:45 GMT
1. Okay, you can use Tevinter as an argument that abominations aren't likely to destroy the world, but this is a step too far. We've seen enough to know that they haven't been destroyed by abominations, but you can't argue they don't have them. Mage children are children. It's just that they have to be in the Circles once they awaken with their magic for all the reasons I've already given. What I'm saying is that children who haven't shown themselves to be mages yet don't have to be, and so they shouldn't be. The important thing is that you're giving the mages "life" by making everyone else's lives riskier. Also, as I've already pointed out, in Orlais the peasants arguably don't have "life." A serf is someone who is bound to the land, has to follow the orders of its lord, and is a criminal if they leave. By what metric do they have "life" that doesn't apply to a Circle mage? 1. So: the Abominations able to control when and whom to destroy? This is not accidental? 2. Okay, they are not children, as a mages are not people. 3. You said (1.): this is not accidental, so: they are able to contol it. They are just as dangerous as who can to create bombs. So if the Orlesian peasants live badly, that fact justify that all mages in Southern Thedas should live badly? 1: The abominations destroy as they can. You can argue that this means they can't destroy Tevinter. But you can't argue that they don't form there. 2: That is literally the opposite of what I said. 3: I did not just say that mages can control themselves when they go abomination, or that they can necessarily control when they do go abomination. In fact that the opposite of that is true is one of my main arguments. People who create bombs can't accidentally destroy cities. Not all mages who go abomination do, but they're the only threat in this setting that can do such a thing without wanting to. That Orlesian serfs live like Circle mages means that your answer to the problems mages face won't help such mages as are born to Orlesian peasants. That is all that it means. It doesn't mean that either system is right, and in fact if we had the opportunity to make things better for Orlais's peasants I'd take it. But until that happens, mages born to Orlesian serfs are either practically Circle Mages, or actually Circle Mages. (That wouldn't disqualify your solution entirely, except that your solution also comes at the cost of everyone's life becoming a whole lot more dangerous. Add the two problems together, and your cure starts to look worse than the disease.)
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Post by Catilina on Oct 10, 2016 21:52:46 GMT
1. So: the Abominations able to control when and whom to destroy? This is not accidental? 2. Okay, they are not children, as a mages are not people. 3. You said (1.): this is not accidental, so: they are able to contol it. They are just as dangerous as who can to create bombs. So if the Orlesian peasants live badly, that fact justify that all mages in Southern Thedas should live badly? 1: The abominations destroy as they can. You can argue that this means they can't destroy Tevinter. But you can't argue that they don't form there. 2: That is literally the opposite of what I said. 3: I did not just say that mages can control themselves when they go abomination, or that they can necessarily control when they do go abomination. In fact that the opposite of that is true is one of my main arguments. People who create bombs can't accidentally destroy cities. Not all mages who go abomination do, but they're the only threat in this setting that can do such a thing without wanting to. That Orlesian serfs live like Circle mages means that your answer to the problems mages face won't help such mages as are born to Orlesian peasants. That is all that it means. It doesn't mean that either system is right, and in fact if we had the opportunity to make things better for Orlais's peasants I'd take it. But until that happens, mages born to Orlesian serfs are either practically Circle Mages, or actually Circle Mages. (That wouldn't disqualify your solution entirely, except that your solution also comes at the cost of everyone's life becoming a whole lot more dangerous. Add the two problems together, and your cure starts to look worse than the disease.) How many people use dangerous tools, which can cause great damage. The bombs can explode by accident - for example ... Yes, you said: the mage children are children. LITERALLY. And in the next sentence you refuted this. (Not literally!)
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 10, 2016 21:59:37 GMT
1: The abominations destroy as they can. You can argue that this means they can't destroy Tevinter. But you can't argue that they don't form there. 2: That is literally the opposite of what I said. 3: I did not just say that mages can control themselves when they go abomination, or that they can necessarily control when they do go abomination. In fact that the opposite of that is true is one of my main arguments. People who create bombs can't accidentally destroy cities. Not all mages who go abomination do, but they're the only threat in this setting that can do such a thing without wanting to. That Orlesian serfs live like Circle mages means that your answer to the problems mages face won't help such mages as are born to Orlesian peasants. That is all that it means. It doesn't mean that either system is right, and in fact if we had the opportunity to make things better for Orlais's peasants I'd take it. But until that happens, mages born to Orlesian serfs are either practically Circle Mages, or actually Circle Mages. (That wouldn't disqualify your solution entirely, except that your solution also comes at the cost of everyone's life becoming a whole lot more dangerous. Add the two problems together, and your cure starts to look worse than the disease.) How many people use dangerous tools, which can cause great damage. The bombs can explode by accident - for example ... Yes, you said: the mage children are children. LITERALLY. And in the next sentence you refuted this. (Not literally!) And that is why the places where bombs are made are kept in isolated facilities, away from the rest of the world. No they don't. Where in their post do they say that?
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Post by Catilina on Oct 10, 2016 22:08:07 GMT
How many people use dangerous tools, which can cause great damage. The bombs can explode by accident - for example ... Yes, you said: the mage children are children. LITERALLY. And in the next sentence you refuted this. (Not literally!) And that is why the places where bombs are made are kept in isolated facilities, away from the rest of the world. No they don't. Where in their post do they say that? All of them? Always? And what about the fire, explosive devices, etc? Everyone lights a fire at home... Everyone should be imprisoned, because the life is dangerous? Ridiculous. He said no safe, if the children are in the Circle, because the Circle is dangerous. But the mage children must inside the Circle...
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 10, 2016 22:12:26 GMT
And that is why the places where bombs are made are kept in isolated facilities, away from the rest of the world. No they don't. Where in their post do they say that? All of them? Always? And what about the fire, explosive devices, etc? Everyone lights a fire at home... Everyone should be imprisoned, because the life is dangerous? Ridiculous. All the ones being made legally, yes. There are tons of regulations in place to see to that. Those that aren't are illegal so if caught the people who made them are punished. Almost none of those household fires can destroy an entire population of people like an abomination can. You are making a false equivalency. You can argue against the imprisonment of mages all you want, and I agree they shouldn't all be imprisoned, just make actual logical arguments against it.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 10, 2016 22:14:48 GMT
All of them? Always? And what about the fire, explosive devices, etc? Everyone lights a fire at home... Everyone should be imprisoned, because the life is dangerous? Ridiculous. All the ones being made legally, yes. There are tons of regulations in place to see to that. Those that aren't are illegal so if caught the people who made them are punished. Almost none of those household fires can destroy an entire population of people like an abomination can. You are making a false equivalency. You can argue against the imprisonment of mages all you want, just make actual logical arguments against it. Everyone should imprisoned, who are able to create a bomb.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 10, 2016 22:16:46 GMT
He said no safe, if the children are in the Circle, because the Circle is dangerous. But the mage children must inside the Circle... I'm pretty sure they mean small children, like babies and toddlers. Children who show magical potential don't show it until they are a bit older so are better able to handle things. That said I can see where the mages are separated based off age, so the children are in one part of the Circle while the teenagers are in another and the adults in yet another. It makes sense from an education standpoint, just like how our real life schools work.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 10, 2016 22:19:01 GMT
All the ones being made legally, yes. There are tons of regulations in place to see to that. Those that aren't are illegal so if caught the people who made them are punished. Almost none of those household fires can destroy an entire population of people like an abomination can. You are making a false equivalency. You can argue against the imprisonment of mages all you want, just make actual logical arguments against it. Everyone should imprisoned, who are able to create a bomb. Again, you are making a false equivalency. We people to make a bomb have to do things like get the materials, learn how to utilize them, etc. That takes time and leaves evidence that most of the time leads to the person being caught because there were signs of warning. Mages have no such signs, since literally in the blink of an eye it can happen.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 10, 2016 22:33:33 GMT
Everyone should imprisoned, who are able to create a bomb. Again, you are making a false equivalency. We people to make a bomb have to do things like get the materials, learn how to utilize them, etc. That takes time and leaves evidence that most of the time leads to the person being caught because there were signs of warning. Mages have no such signs, since literally in the blink of an eye it can happen. The bomb was just an example. Replaceable with gas bottles. Or any dangerous thing. The life is dangerous. (Eh nevermind. I suppose, if you played as mage Hawke, when the family arrived in Kirkwall, your Hawke had go straight into the Circle, because s/he is dangerous. Or immediately sent Bethany into the Circle, because this is the right thing. I think, your Hawke murdered Malcolm with his/her own hand, because he's a lawbreaker, and what he did, is wrong. AND: your Hawke never befriended/beloved with Merrill! She so dangerous!)
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Oct 10, 2016 22:56:04 GMT
Everyone should imprisoned, who are able to create a bomb. Again, you are making a false equivalency. We people to make a bomb have to do things like get the materials, learn how to utilize them, etc. That takes time and leaves evidence that most of the time leads to the person being caught because there were signs of warning. Mages have no such signs, since literally in the blink of an eye it can happen. In addition to all of this, a bombmaker isn't all that much more dangerous than anyone else. Sure, he knows how to make bombs, but we've reached the point where it's not hard to learn how to do that. Pretty much any literate person (and we're making literacy much more common, even if I'd rather it was more common than it already is) can find and read the instructions. Only a tiny fraction of Thedas's people are born mages, and they are innately dangerous in a way nobody else can quite match. Again, you are making a false equivalency. We people to make a bomb have to do things like get the materials, learn how to utilize them, etc. That takes time and leaves evidence that most of the time leads to the person being caught because there were signs of warning. Mages have no such signs, since literally in the blink of an eye it can happen. The bomb was just an example. Replaceable with gas bottles. Or any dangerous thing. The life is dangerous. The thing it's most replaceable with is contagious, superlethal disease. It's not that close to a match, but it's the only thing that comes even that close. And that's answered with quarantines. There's an argument that Bethany should be turned in to the Circle and that you shouldn't befriend Merrill. Killing Malcolm would be a bit extreme, though. Not least because as I understand it he was a former Circle mage. If he did that without being Tranquilized, he was probably Harrowed. I'd argue that Harrowed mages should still be in the Circle, but I've said several times they're not the real threat.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 10, 2016 23:08:39 GMT
Again, you are making a false equivalency. We people to make a bomb have to do things like get the materials, learn how to utilize them, etc. That takes time and leaves evidence that most of the time leads to the person being caught because there were signs of warning. Mages have no such signs, since literally in the blink of an eye it can happen. In addition to all of this, a bombmaker isn't all that much more dangerous than anyone else. Sure, he knows how to make bombs, but we've reached the point where it's not hard to learn how to do that. Pretty much any literate person (and we're making literacy much more common, even if I'd rather it was more common than it already is) can find and read the instructions. Only a tiny fraction of Thedas's people are born mages, and they are innately dangerous in a way nobody else can quite match. The bomb was just an example. Replaceable with gas bottles. Or any dangerous thing. The life is dangerous. The thing it's most replaceable with is contagious, superlethal disease. It's not that close to a match, but it's the only thing that comes even that close. And that's answered with quarantines. There's an argument that Bethany should be turned in to the Circle and that you shouldn't befriend Merrill. Killing Malcolm would be a bit extreme, though. Not least because as I understand it he was a former Circle mage. If he did that without being Tranquilized, he was probably Harrowed. I'd argue that Harrowed mages should still be in the Circle, but I've said several times they're not the real threat. 1. So: you see: all people can be dangerous. The life is dangerous. 2. The Mages are not infectious. 3. YES! You said: the trained mages are much less dangerous. And I said, the Circles are IMPORTANT, as shools and library. So we agree. Trained mages should be free!
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Oct 10, 2016 23:41:44 GMT
In addition to all of this, a bombmaker isn't all that much more dangerous than anyone else. Sure, he knows how to make bombs, but we've reached the point where it's not hard to learn how to do that. Pretty much any literate person (and we're making literacy much more common, even if I'd rather it was more common than it already is) can find and read the instructions. Only a tiny fraction of Thedas's people are born mages, and they are innately dangerous in a way nobody else can quite match. The thing it's most replaceable with is contagious, superlethal disease. It's not that close to a match, but it's the only thing that comes even that close. And that's answered with quarantines. There's an argument that Bethany should be turned in to the Circle and that you shouldn't befriend Merrill. Killing Malcolm would be a bit extreme, though. Not least because as I understand it he was a former Circle mage. If he did that without being Tranquilized, he was probably Harrowed. I'd argue that Harrowed mages should still be in the Circle, but I've said several times they're not the real threat. 1. So: you see: all people can be dangerous. The life is dangerous. Yes, but I also pointed out that mages are more dangerous. 2. The Mages are not infectious.[/quote] No, but I didn't say they were. What I said was that a deadly contagious disease is the closest thing to the danger a mage poses, despite not being all that close. The rationale, as I've previously stated, is that when a mage goes abomination (and it cannot be stated enough that this doesn't have to be voluntary) they can murder way more people than any other person can. Like someone with a deadly disease, they don't have to want to kill a whole bunch of people to do it. We agree that murdering Malcolm Hawke is a little disproportionate. As a general rule I don't support going all Duerte on criminals who aren't actively killing people. That's not the same as agreeing that there was nothing wrong here. In fact, I'd have been more inclined to tell the Templars what was going on, myself.
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Post by hammerstorm on Oct 11, 2016 14:58:07 GMT
I don't even know why I read this thread anymore. All rational and logical reason has already been said and at this point there is 1 or 2 people that make strawmen and/or try to guilt people into admit that Mages should be free.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 11, 2016 15:14:50 GMT
I don't even know why I read this thread anymore. All rational and logical reason has already been said and at this point there is 1 or 2 people that make strawmen and/or try to guilt people into admit that Mages should be free. In addition to what already has been said there is not too much variation, the rest is just quibbling. But maybe turn up something more original thought...
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Post by oyabun on Oct 12, 2016 0:51:31 GMT
As far as i'm concerned killing old gods is good and does not have any downside,i don't understand what evidences people have to imply the contrary other than use the arguments of a lunatic(Solas) or the belief of a poor deluded witch who was brainwashed by Flemeth. Other than those of the DR fan club who saved Urthemiel because of fear for themselves i don't see anyone supporting this argument.Killing them is a good thing,preserving them on the other hand is the gamble. A few codex entries, notably from the dwarves (which constantly battle the darkspawn and typically believe the darkspawn just appeared underground one day instead of being an ancient curse from evil magisters), imply that should the Old Gods die out the darkspawn will have nowhere to go but up. Some scoff at the idea that the surface thinks its safe just because the darkspawn are not crawling out when Orzamaar has to deal with them practically every day. They believe that when the day comes, the surface will deal with a blight that will never end. Basically the question lies less with the Old Gods dying and more with how the darkspawn will act once they are gone. From what we can tell, it is the broodmothers and the taint from which the darkspawn arise, not the Old Gods. Meaning that when they are gone, the darkspawn will still remain, only this time they will no longer obsess over trying to reach the Old Gods. it is true that the darkspawn hold little organizational ability without an Old God to lead them but they don't have to, a mindless hoard can still do damage. And we have already seen how some darkspawn (the Mother and her darkspawn followers) react from being taken away from he Old God's song... First you are assuming that the old gods are the source of the calling rather than their prisons second you are assuming that all the darkspawns are influnced by the calling to the point where they decide to remain underground,while in DAI it seem that the more you are close to the old god the more the song become intense which imply that distance influnce the calling and since 5 old god are dead there is no reason to believe these beasts are keeping darkspawn underground. Solas and Flemeth are not reliable source of knowledge since they are patological liars.
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