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Post by goishen on Sept 8, 2019 15:54:35 GMT
I'd be happy with BioWare if they came out with at least a decent game, at this point. Not gonna blow your socks off, not gonna rock your world metaphorically.
Just a decent game.
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Post by Iakus on Sept 8, 2019 17:04:30 GMT
I get it, I really do. They've proven their incompetence, their failures are plain for everyone to see. In spite of some people here saying it's only true for Anthem, Bioware's problems started way before any of that. But if Casey is committed to turning things around, if he wants people to actually see Bioware in a positive light, if he wants the public eye to ditch the scrutiny with which it is currently viewing the company he is trying to run right now, he needs to go big. He needs to erase doubts and all shadows of them. Yet he displays further insecurity and perpetuation of past practices that led to Andromeda, that led to Anthem. And now, he also forgets to mention the release date of an expansion to a game that, according to Space Cowboy , its community has been waiting for, for 3 years now. Why leave it out? What are you afraid of? I don't know. I guess I'm just unreasonable, but this is not how I would have handled this situation. Some people don't seem to get that Casey is the problem. The whole Biower mess reached its crescendo with the ME3 endings fiasco. Casey in the lead. Help from super Mac. (Mac still at Blower, lead on Andromeda, know how th a t turned out) Casey Had to leave Blower, went to Microsoft, got his head "right", came back to Blower. Expecting different from those who are responsible for the mess in the first place is madness. Also, think Casey and Mac could have an interesting conversation about dashed expectations with the showrunners Beniott and Weiss from Game of Thrones? "C&M, We had it all going so good, then screwed the pooch at the very end. B&W, Dammit, us too. C&M, We had to issue an apology and redo some of our ending after the firestorm, we called it an extended cut. B&W, We couldn't do that after the finale, we just hid. C, yeah, Me too. BTW, who are you therapists?" Toss in Rian Johnson and J J Abrams and you could have a support group...
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Post by shinobiwan on Sept 8, 2019 17:51:37 GMT
I'd be happy with BioWare if they came out with at least a decent game, at this point. Not gonna blow your socks off, not gonna rock your world metaphorically. Just a decent game. Kinda depends on what it is and why it’s only decent. If it was a return to form with heavy story elements and weak gameplay like old bioware, that’s welcome. If it’s a better anthem or another mea, I can leave it.
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Post by goishen on Sept 8, 2019 21:02:02 GMT
Well, that kind'a depends. Do you think Anthem and ME:A were good games? Or at least decent?
I don't. It's quite alright if you do, but I think that both games were dumpster fires.
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Post by PillarBiter on Sept 9, 2019 6:09:25 GMT
I'd be happy with BioWare if they came out with at least a decent game, at this point. Not gonna blow your socks off, not gonna rock your world metaphorically. Just a decent game. Kinda depends on what it is and why it’s only decent. If it was a return to form with heavy story elements and weak gameplay like old bioware, that’s welcome. If it’s a better anthem or another mea, I can leave it. I know it's a personal thing (and generally more nuanced than that), but it's kind of unfair to let weak gameplay pass as long as story is okay, and be harshly critical the other way around.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Sept 9, 2019 10:54:07 GMT
That would be bad. It will be bad and it will look worse. If this is the reason for Casey being vague ... oof. Oof! Honestly, I don't think it will matter whatever they do at this point, going big or keeping quiet and stealthing a release, because folks are going to be perturbed anyway. They are going to do what they think is best for them it seems, and folks are going to be polarized regardless of what actions are taken unless they invent the greatest thing since sliced bread - so the fans of sliced bread can bitch at them for what they did. Frankly id respect BioWare a lot more if they just said "its finished when we say so" or something to that effect, but that won't happen in this case mostly because of the PR with EA. That could, theoretically, work, if the game wasn't released yet. But the game is released, with the minimum viable content it could have, added another minimum viable content in 2 months in the form of a single dungeon and then took another 4 months to release the cataclysm, which is a nice update, but it didn't re-engage the community, it didn't turn the tide of discontent and it didn't generate enough positive media articles to at least convince people to give it a second chance. So "when it's done" won't matter if nobody's there to play it. That's something they should have thought about, before they went to market.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Sept 9, 2019 11:11:06 GMT
Kinda depends on what it is and why it’s only decent. If it was a return to form with heavy story elements and weak gameplay like old bioware, that’s welcome. If it’s a better anthem or another mea, I can leave it. I know it's a personal thing (and generally more nuanced than that), but it's kind of unfair to let weak gameplay pass as long as story is okay, and be harshly critical the other way around. Depends on the audience's expectations. It's not that you forgive it. But gameplay can be serviceable, nothing mind blowing and work. But it really is the story elements that elevate the game. It's what it does above and beyond the competition that makes it stand out. People criticize ME2 for having "Gears of War" battle, but at the time Gears of War was the shit, the epitome of TPS combat of its time and it was judged accordingly, everybody was shitting their pants over the GeoW trilogy. But it wasn't what people praised it about, it was the writing, because that's what the audience was hungry for. So it's not that it's forgiven, but it's not what the audience is looking for, what they are hungry for. After all, there are games that do the action better and more specialized than Bioware does, either through set pieces, game mechanics or level design. It's not that Bioware can't or shouldn't try to make these better, but it's not what people look forward to in Bioware games and, as such, it detracts from the overall experience so much more, that good gameplay gets drowned in the process. It is not a bad game, it is a bad Bioware game, a bad Bioware experience and it gets rated as such.
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Post by tatann on Sept 9, 2019 11:31:48 GMT
Talking about expectations, if you're not expecting The Witcher 3 AAA level of gaming, Greedfall is released tomorrow [/unofficialgreedfalloptimismthread]
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Post by SirSourpuss on Sept 9, 2019 11:49:29 GMT
Talking about expectations, if you're not expecting The Witcher 3 AAA level of gaming, Greedfall is released tomorrow [/unofficialgreedfalloptimismthread] Against my better judgement, I already bought it. I am also replaying ELEX. Oh, man ... the eurojank in that is just so refined.
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Post by PillarBiter on Sept 9, 2019 13:08:41 GMT
I know it's a personal thing (and generally more nuanced than that), but it's kind of unfair to let weak gameplay pass as long as story is okay, and be harshly critical the other way around. Depends on the audience's expectations. It's not that you forgive it. But gameplay can be serviceable, nothing mind blowing and work. But it really is the story elements that elevate the game. It's what it does above and beyond the competition that makes it stand out. People criticize ME2 for having "Gears of War" battle, but at the time Gears of War was the shit, the epitome of TPS combat of its time and it was judged accordingly, everybody was shitting their pants over the GeoW trilogy. But it wasn't what people praised it about, it was the writing, because that's what the audience was hungry for. So it's not that it's forgiven, but it's not what the audience is looking for, what they are hungry for. After all, there are games that do the action better and more specialized than Bioware does, either through set pieces, game mechanics or level design. It's not that Bioware can't or shouldn't try to make these better, but it's not what people look forward to in Bioware games and, as such, it detracts from the overall experience so much more, that good gameplay gets drowned in the process. It is not a bad game, it is a bad Bioware game, a bad Bioware experience and it gets rated as such. Fair enough, I agree. Or at least, I'll concede to the point that a game is made a lot shittier by a shitty story than shitty gameplay.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Sept 9, 2019 13:27:22 GMT
Fair enough, I agree. Or at least, I'll concede to the point that a game is made a lot shittier by a shitty story than shitty gameplay. That's not true for every game, though. For example, do you care about shitty writing in Ninja Gaiden? Absolutely not. You care about cool moves, balls to the wall difficulty and Rachel's humongous tiddies In a Final Fantasy game, do you care about the story? Yes. Even more so than the gameplay? Absolutely. Because the combat will get old and repetitive regardless and what will keep it fresh and engaging is the story. No matter how engaging the gameplay is, it will get repetitive, eventually. You know this.
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Post by 10k on Sept 9, 2019 13:32:07 GMT
Talking about expectations, if you're not expecting The Witcher 3 AAA level of gaming, Greedfall is released tomorrow [/unofficialgreedfalloptimismthread] UGHHH...I'm still going to have to wait for reviews and more gameplay from this one. The game trailers and the concept behind it is very interesting, and it reminds me so much of Origins. But I still don't trust spiders. Though Red dead online update also releases tomorrow, so I'll be very much distracted by that.
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Post by PillarBiter on Sept 9, 2019 14:21:22 GMT
Fair enough, I agree. Or at least, I'll concede to the point that a game is made a lot shittier by a shitty story than shitty gameplay. and Rachel's humongous tiddies She had a face? Well, you learn something new every day.
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Post by tatann on Sept 10, 2019 10:14:13 GMT
Talking about expectations, if you're not expecting The Witcher 3 AAA level of gaming, Greedfall is released tomorrow [/unofficialgreedfalloptimismthread] Against my better judgement, I already bought it. I am also replaying ELEX. Oh, man ... the eurojank in that is just so refined. I blame you for pre-ordering ^^ But ACG's review seems rather positive, I think I might buy day one after reading a few other tests
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Post by SirSourpuss on Sept 10, 2019 12:26:48 GMT
Against my better judgement, I already bought it. I am also replaying ELEX. Oh, man ... the eurojank in that is just so refined. I blame you for pre-ordering ^^ But ACG's review seems rather positive, I think I might buy day one after reading a few other tests It's getting better reviews than Andromeda, which I honestly didn't expect. This seems like a pretty big leap in quality for Spiders. Good for them. I have the day off tomorrow, I will give it a spin.
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Post by Sartoz on Sept 10, 2019 13:21:39 GMT
Honestly, I don't think it will matter whatever they do at this point, going big or keeping quiet and stealthing a release, because folks are going to be perturbed anyway. They are going to do what they think is best for them it seems, and folks are going to be polarized regardless of what actions are taken unless they invent the greatest thing since sliced bread - so the fans of sliced bread can bitch at them for what they did. Frankly id respect BioWare a lot more if they just said "its finished when we say so" or something to that effect, but that won't happen in this case mostly because of the PR with EA. That could, theoretically, work, if the game wasn't released yet. But the game is released, with the minimum viable content it could have, added another minimum viable content in 2 months in the form of a single dungeon and then took another 4 months to release the cataclysm, which is a nice update, but it didn't re-engage the community, it didn't turn the tide of discontent and it didn't generate enough positive media articles to at least convince people to give it a second chance. So "when it's done" won't matter if nobody's there to play it. That's something they should have thought about, before they went to market.
GaaS games is now a standard EA policy, imo. This give all of their game studios with no choice. The point is that some studios are better at this than others. Also, some game genre are more suitable to the trickle content development.
Whichever way one slices Anthem, whatever could go wrong went wrong in spades. And as you say, no amount of fixing will bring enough players back. Besides, by the time it is "fixed" players will have moved on to "better" pastures.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Sept 10, 2019 14:15:00 GMT
GaaS games is now a standard EA policy, imo. This give all of their game studios with no choice. The point is that some studios are better at this than others. Also, some game genre are more suitable to the trickle content development. Sure, if we examine it in a per game and per genre case. I am going to go back to AC: Odyssey yet again as an example of a game that has had no MTX controversy, other than those "time savers", a steady stream of new content, an abundance of content on release and consistent communication from the developer. But I don't think this is the norm, anymore. It seems a lot of studios are stretched too thin to keep up with the demands of such a game model. Especially when these titles span several teams within the same studio. Whichever way one slices Anthem, whatever could go wrong went wrong in spades. And as you say, no amount of fixing will bring enough players back. Besides, by the time it is "fixed" players will have moved on to "better" pastures. I do believe you're right.
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Post by tatann on Sept 10, 2019 14:16:57 GMT
I blame you for pre-ordering ^^ But ACG's review seems rather positive, I think I might buy day one after reading a few other tests It's getting better reviews than Andromeda, which I honestly didn't expect. This seems like a pretty big leap in quality for Spiders. Good for them. I have the day off tomorrow, I will give it a spin. Honestly I did expect Greedfall to have a better score than Andromeda, they gain from being independent while Andromeda was judged by MET standard But I can see it being a better game on some aspects, especially the ones that made Bioware (companions, story) I already prefer the companions from The Technomancer to the ones from MEA
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Post by PillarBiter on Sept 11, 2019 7:25:52 GMT
That could, theoretically, work, if the game wasn't released yet. But the game is released, with the minimum viable content it could have, added another minimum viable content in 2 months in the form of a single dungeon and then took another 4 months to release the cataclysm, which is a nice update, but it didn't re-engage the community, it didn't turn the tide of discontent and it didn't generate enough positive media articles to at least convince people to give it a second chance. So "when it's done" won't matter if nobody's there to play it. That's something they should have thought about, before they went to market.
GaaS games is now a standard EA policy, imo. This give all of their game studios with no choice. The point is that some studios are better at this than others. Also, some game genre are more suitable to the trickle content development.
Whichever way one slices Anthem, whatever could go wrong went wrong in spades. And as you say, no amount of fixing will bring enough players back. Besides, by the time it is "fixed" players will have moved on to "better" pastures.
Pretty much yeah. These days, first impressions is all you get. If you don't get that right, you can try as hard as you want afetrwards, it won't ever be what it could have been. The only thing that could have any impact is if they go fully anthem 2.0 in one go, and launch it as such, with a huge amount of content. But even them. Impact won't be as it could have been. As a current Anthem player: Judging from the fixes they're doing now, if they had actually waited another year to release it, had fixed all the obvious bugs, had taken the time to make the contect needed, I'm pretty sure it would have been the game they (and we) had dreamed of.
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Post by saandrig on Sept 11, 2019 7:51:40 GMT
As a current Anthem player: Judging from the fixes they're doing now, if they had actually waited another year to release it, had fixed all the obvious bugs, had taken the time to make the contect needed, I'm pretty sure it would have been the game they (and we) had dreamed of. They had over 6 years to work. If you gave them a year more, they might have just as easily made a bigger mess. The only way Anthem and MEA were made for launch was when a final deadline was given and Bioware had to go balls to the wall and produce something in a short time. Which gives me an idea - EA needs to tell Bioware "DA4, we are releasing it for Christmas 2020, make it happen or else!". Then in December 2020 when the game is launch ready EA can say "It was a joke. You have a year more to polish that."
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Post by PillarBiter on Sept 11, 2019 8:01:41 GMT
As a current Anthem player: Judging from the fixes they're doing now, if they had actually waited another year to release it, had fixed all the obvious bugs, had taken the time to make the contect needed, I'm pretty sure it would have been the game they (and we) had dreamed of. They had over 6 years to work. If you gave them a year more, they might have just as easily made a bigger mess. The only way Anthem and MEA were made for launch was when a final deadline was given and Bioware had to go balls to the wall and produce something in a short time. Which gives me an idea - EA needs to tell Bioware "DA4, we are releasing it for Christmas 2020, make it happen or else!". Then in December 2020 when the game is launch ready EA can say "It was a joke. You have a year more to polish that." The 6 years argument keeps being brought up, but it's not accurate. They only really had 2 years in which they actually worked in any significant manner on anthem. It's completely their own fault that they did it that way, but it was NOT in development for 6 years. If they had had 3 years instead of 2, it would have looked significantly different. But again, it's their own mess. Also, lmfao at your EA suggestion. They TOTALLY should do that.
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Post by shinobiwan on Sept 11, 2019 8:26:11 GMT
They had over 6 years to work. If you gave them a year more, they might have just as easily made a bigger mess. The only way Anthem and MEA were made for launch was when a final deadline was given and Bioware had to go balls to the wall and produce something in a short time. Which gives me an idea - EA needs to tell Bioware "DA4, we are releasing it for Christmas 2020, make it happen or else!". Then in December 2020 when the game is launch ready EA can say "It was a joke. You have a year more to polish that." The 6 years argument keeps being brought up, but it's not accurate. They only really had 2 years in which they actually worked in any significant manner on anthem. It's completely their own fault that they did it that way, but it was NOT in development for 6 years. If they had had 3 years instead of 2, it would have looked significantly different. But again, it's their own mess. Also, lmfao at your EA suggestion. They TOTALLY should do that. He said “they had over six years to work.” They did. It’s true that they squandered most of it and delayed development unnecessarily to roughly 18 months before launch, but they had the time. My experience with Cataclysm did nothing to suggest the game would have benefitted from a year of extra time. I think if Cata was in the base game it wouldn’t have changed the reception much if at all - it’s mostly more of the same with the same problems. People who like the game (or the idea of it, or what it promises) are just starving for anything new whatsoever. Based on the game’s inability to crack top 50 playerbase on Xbox live and the unchanged twitch viewership, it seems they are a minority. Further, having extra time in the oven may not necessarily have even improved the game or generated the Cataclysm in its current state. The need for drastic course corrections wasn’t on bioware’s radar until after launch and the negative reception. Before that, they thought they had an 8/10 game on their hands, and any extra time before launch would have been under misguided direction and without the benefit of community input.
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Post by Sartoz on Sept 11, 2019 10:45:27 GMT
A faulty game design will never profit from additional time, imo.
One can paint and add wonderful warm furniture to a house but if it's foundation is built on sand.... you are f****d, no matter how many more rooms you add. Anthem has yet to break the top 50 even with Cataclysm. The signs are all there and a hoard of old players "ain't" coming back, let alone getting new ones.
Pity.
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Post by PillarBiter on Sept 11, 2019 11:33:41 GMT
The 6 years argument keeps being brought up, but it's not accurate. They only really had 2 years in which they actually worked in any significant manner on anthem. It's completely their own fault that they did it that way, but it was NOT in development for 6 years. If they had had 3 years instead of 2, it would have looked significantly different. But again, it's their own mess. Also, lmfao at your EA suggestion. They TOTALLY should do that. 1) He said “they had over six years to work.” They did. It’s true that they squandered most of it and delayed development unnecessarily to roughly 18 months before launch, but they had the time. 2) My experience with Cataclysm did nothing to suggest the game would have benefitted from a year of extra time. I think if Cata was in the base game it wouldn’t have changed the reception much if at all - it’s mostly more of the same with the same problems. People who like the game (or the idea of it, or what it promises) are just starving for anything new whatsoever. 3) Based on the game’s inability to crack top 50 playerbase on Xbox live and the unchanged twitch viewership, it seems they are a minority. 4) Further, having extra time in the oven may not necessarily have even improved the game or generated the Cataclysm in its current state. 5) a) The need for drastic course corrections wasn’t on bioware’s radar until after launch and the negative reception. Before that, they thought they had an 8/10 game on their hands, c) and any extra time before launch would have been under misguided direction and without the benefit of community input. 1) Congratulations, you repeated succesfully what I said, but in a different construction of words. 2) Our experiences must've been different then (I play xbox). Other than loot not being fixed yet, anthem 1.4(.1) is a noticeable improvement concerning stability and bugs to the base game. The cataclysm itself might not have changed reception, no. But the increased stability would have. 3) Always with the viewers... Is that the final definitive measurement then? I mean, I'm not blind to the world, I'm sure that more popular games will get more viewers. And I am not as dissilusioned to think that anthem will ever be a popular game, but that doesn't mean it can't be a good game. 4) maybe. Maybe not. 5) a)Oh, you have insider knowledge in the company's internal communication now? Do share. they knew it wouldn't be perfect. They just didn't know HOW fucked they were going to get Which was kind of childishly naive, considering they had already had the ME3 and MEA backlash... c) that is likely true.
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Post by shinobiwan on Sept 11, 2019 12:01:20 GMT
1) He said “they had over six years to work.” They did. It’s true that they squandered most of it and delayed development unnecessarily to roughly 18 months before launch, but they had the time. 2) My experience with Cataclysm did nothing to suggest the game would have benefitted from a year of extra time. I think if Cata was in the base game it wouldn’t have changed the reception much if at all - it’s mostly more of the same with the same problems. People who like the game (or the idea of it, or what it promises) are just starving for anything new whatsoever. 3) Based on the game’s inability to crack top 50 playerbase on Xbox live and the unchanged twitch viewership, it seems they are a minority. 4) Further, having extra time in the oven may not necessarily have even improved the game or generated the Cataclysm in its current state. 5) a) The need for drastic course corrections wasn’t on bioware’s radar until after launch and the negative reception. Before that, they thought they had an 8/10 game on their hands, c) and any extra time before launch would have been under misguided direction and without the benefit of community input. 1) Congratulations, you repeated succesfully what I said, but in a different construction of words. 2) Our experiences must've been different then (I play xbox). Other than loot not being fixed yet, anthem 1.4(.1) is a noticeable improvement concerning stability and bugs to the base game. The cataclysm itself might not have changed reception, no. But the increased stability would have. 3) Always with the viewers... Is that the final definitive measurement then? I mean, I'm not blind to the world, I'm sure that more popular games will get more viewers. And I am not as dissilusioned to think that anthem will ever be a popular game, but that doesn't mean it can't be a good game. 4) maybe. Maybe not. 5) a)Oh, you have insider knowledge in the company's internal communication now? Do share. they knew it wouldn't be perfect. They just didn't know HOW fucked they were going to get Which was kind of childishly naive, considering they had already had the ME3 and MEA backlash... c) that is likely true. 1) needs no response, your comment is silly. Most gradeschoolers know the difference between having time to complete something and not using it vs performing under real time limits. 2) must be 3) good job ignoring the Xbox playercount info. If you have another data point, go ahead and share it. Otherwise, these two suggest not much has changed re: player count. 4/5) information is taken straight from the kotaku articles on mea and anthem, perhaps you should read them more closely.
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