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Post by gervaise21 on Mar 20, 2018 17:29:13 GMT
Back in DAO this was the attitude of the Dalish:
Lorekeeper Paival (Sabrae Clan): “We can hope to find a new home one day where the Dalish and the flat ears will build a land greater even than Arlathan. We shall teach the flat ears the lore and perhaps they will teach us to understand the shemlen at last. That is the only way we shall truly live in peace.”
That sounds like people who are willing to learn from the past, not just slavishly try to recreate it. It was important to them not to lose their cultural identity and that is why they continued to try and seek out what they could find of their lost civilisation. Even the City Elves tried to do something through solidarity with one another and the symbol of the Vhenadahl tree.
Then you have the disparaging evaluation of the Dalish by Felassan in Masked Empire and Solas in DAI, along with Sera's wholly negative but never explained attitude towards them, and suddenly the Dalish desire to preserve their cultural identity is considered a bad thing. Briala is led to believe that the Dalish are more interested in the past than helping the elves in the present. No they aren't but they are just powerless to do anything more than survive from day to day and preserve what they can until such time as they can do more.
If the Dalish are too obsessed with the past, then so are the dwarves, the Rivaini, the Avvar, Tevinter and everyone else in Thedas who has a similar devotion to their cultural heritage. The reason the Dalish seem to have been singled out for censure is because the writers have manipulated their portrayal to make you think that way.
Take the way they dealt with the story of Ameridan. Just read the history of Drakon given in World of Thedas 2. The Dalish were entirely correct in their assessment of him as "no better than Tevinter" and it is entirely possible that they were fighting the darkspawn in the Dales and had gone to the aid of Montsimmard only to arrive too late, but no one suggests this and the leaders of the Dales are automatically painted as the bad guys by everyone. Meanwhile, if you play a Dalish, they are apparently ignorant of everything surrounding that time, despite the fact that there is a clan laying claim to Ameridan as one of their own and if the Dalish are so concerned with preserving their history then surely they would make a point of remembering lore from their recent past?
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Iakus on Mar 20, 2018 20:41:03 GMT
Back in DAO this was the attitude of the Dalish: Lorekeeper Paival (Sabrae Clan): “We can hope to find a new home one day where the Dalish and the flat ears will build a land greater even than Arlathan. We shall teach the flat ears the lore and perhaps they will teach us to understand the shemlen at last. That is the only way we shall truly live in peace.” Paival calling the city elves "flat ears" kinda undermines his claim to be interested in learning anything from them. Not to mention "shemlen" is a slur on humans.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mar 20, 2018 20:45:52 GMT
Back in DAO this was the attitude of the Dalish: Lorekeeper Paival (Sabrae Clan): “We can hope to find a new home one day where the Dalish and the flat ears will build a land greater even than Arlathan. We shall teach the flat ears the lore and perhaps they will teach us to understand the shemlen at last. That is the only way we shall truly live in peace.” Paival calling the city elves "flat ears" kinda undermines his claim to be interested in learning anything from them. Not to mention "shemlen" is a slur on humans. Yeah, when a group, in this case the Dalish, wants to force their culture on another group that they deem lesser, in this case the City Elves, that tends to not be a good thing.
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Post by gervaise21 on Mar 21, 2018 14:18:28 GMT
If the city elves did not want to participate in the culture then may be they would stay back in the human cities being oppressed. All Paival says is that they would teach them the lore that they know about the elven ancestors, as opposed to making them participate in Chantry culture as happens at present. At least they wouldn't force their version of history on them at the same time as kicking them back into the gutter as human society does. One of the most depressing things about the DAO epilogues is that the elven ones were far more negative even when the elves (Dalish or City) were trying to work with their human neighbours rather than remain in isolation.
I think the only epilogue that was worse was if Harrowmount was made King of the dwarves. The best outcome for them is if you have Dictator Bhelen in control who forces the dwarves into greater interaction with the surface world. The moral from the writers seems clear, you only achieve anything in Thedas if you force people to adopt your point of view: Hessarian, Drakon, Calenhad, Bhelen, the only exception being inspired Leliana, who somehow manages to pull off being simultaneously a peacemaker and a reformist.
Shems is the insulting term for humans. Shemlen is just the old word for the human race, literally meaning "quick children", because that is how they seemed to the elves, according the lore.
I should imagine the term "flat ear" came to be used about city elves because they are willing to live under the Chantry who doctored all the old pictures of Shartan to make him look human, effectively giving him "flat" ears. They have allowed themselves to be humanised. However, is because the "flat" ears have been living amongst the humans that he acknowledges they may have a better understanding of their ways than the Dalish do and hence be able to teach the Dalish how to live in peace with them. Flat ear is not intended to be an insult in the way that the human "knife ear" or "rabbit" is, the last one in particular suggesting that elves a little better than prey animals. (It always infuriated me that if I did not want to fail in the Winter Palace quest I had to put up with these sorts of insults being directed at me).
That last sentence is the most revealing one. "That is the only way we shall truly live in peace". This seems to suggest that at least some Dalish are willing to admit that it was a failure to try and understand their human neighbours, instead just trying to isolate themselves from them, that led to the elves downfall in the past. Depressingly, even though the Dalish or City elves do try and to do this, their respective boons still end up going sour on them.
However, it is clear that some people just do not want to acknowledge that there is any value in trying to maintain your individuality in a hostile world and are determined to undermine the Dalish attempts to do so.
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Post by oyabun on Mar 22, 2018 2:19:00 GMT
I never understood exactly how Corypheus was meant to know all this stuff about ancient elves. Either there is a whole load of stuff recorded in Minrathous that he had access to when he was High Priest of Dumat or he got his information from the orb (as is suggested in one of the codices we find in the Arbor Wilds) in which case his knowledge came from the Orb of Fen-Harel, so was bound to agree with Solas' version of events. I think it came from the Orb if I'm not mistaken that's how he knew about the well of sorrow,I think it's possible he even knew Solas headquarters
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Post by oyabun on Mar 22, 2018 2:25:13 GMT
If my ancestors were immortal and lived in magical floating cities, meanwhile I’m a camping wanderer in a dangerous medieval land where lots of people are cruel to me for no reason... I’d be pretty obsessed with the past myself. Sure, the ancient elven empire had (many, many) flaws. But they had basic comforts like health and food in quantities that would be unimaginable luxuries to anyone from modern Thedas. To obtain these things they could also convert to the Qun and gain it immediately rather than just focusing on praying imprisoned gods.
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Post by arvaarad on Mar 22, 2018 3:16:19 GMT
If my ancestors were immortal and lived in magical floating cities, meanwhile I’m a camping wanderer in a dangerous medieval land where lots of people are cruel to me for no reason... I’d be pretty obsessed with the past myself. Sure, the ancient elven empire had (many, many) flaws. But they had basic comforts like health and food in quantities that would be unimaginable luxuries to anyone from modern Thedas. To obtain these things they could also convert to the Qun and gain it immediately rather than just focusing on praying imprisoned gods. I don’t think they’ve cracked immortality quite yet, but fair point. Now that you mention it, it’s kind of surprising we haven’t met converts of that type yet. That’s got to be most of the viddathari, right? Consistent food and shelter is a huge deal. I mean, even I think that the Qunari have some troublesome aspects. The biggest one for me isn’t saarebas, it’s viddath-bas. Their existence incentivizes the Ben-Hassrath to falsely accuse people or be unreasonably strict. They get free labor for every application of qamek, so... gotta hit that arrest quota. But even so, I don’t think we should undersell the technological advancements they’ve made. Infrastructure isn’t sexy, but it saves countless lives and prevents suffering every day. That doesn’t absolve them of their societal sins, but it’s worth celebrating.
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Post by gervaise21 on Mar 22, 2018 9:47:34 GMT
It is worth noting that both Tallis and Gatt admit that the Qun isn't perfect but to their mind it is better than the alternative for them as elves, particularly as both of them started as slaves of Tevinter. Tallis' parents sold her into slavery, as many parents are forced to do with their children to pay off debts in the Imperium. Gatt does not say how he became a slave but he was a child when rescued by Hissrad and it is implied he was being abused by his former master, either physically or sexually. Both their stories are a counter to Dorian's defence of slavery
Interestingly both of them were seen as headstrong and difficult when first converted to the Qun but their superiors persevered with them, although Tallis came very close to having qamek used on her and it was Salit taking personal responsibility for her that prevented it. Both Tallis and Gatt seem to suggest that they stay with the Qun because the benefits of the society outweigh the negatives and also because they think that nothing will change about those things they disagree with if they don't stick with it and try and do so from within.
They could have a point. As a young officer it is said that Sten challenged the decisions of his superiors, in particular the strategy of the Arishok at that time with regard to Tevinter, which was unheard of for a person of lower rank to do. Whilst initially his ideas may have been dismissed as ridiculous by the Arishok, ultimately the Qun did adopt the tactics he suggested of concentrating resources on information gathering (spies) if they ever hoped to gain victory over the South and of course he is now the Arishok.
So whilst the overall philosophy remains the same, it is possible that the Qun are willing to fine tune the detail. Any society would be wise to adopt such a strategy in order to balance faithfulness to tradition with the opportunity to progress beyond its roots.
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Post by arvaarad on Mar 22, 2018 12:37:57 GMT
They could have a point. As a young officer it is said that Sten challenged the decisions of his superiors, in particular the strategy of the Arishok at that time with regard to Tevinter, which was unheard of for a person of lower rank to do. Whilst initially his ideas may have been dismissed as ridiculous by the Arishok, ultimately the Qun did adopt the tactics he suggested of concentrating resources on information gathering (spies) if they ever hoped to gain victory over the South and of course he is now the Arishok. I really want more details about what went on internally with the previous Arishok. I get the vibe he was causing drama long before Kirkwall, and perhaps got “encouraged” to find the tome of Koslun as a disciplinary action. At no point does it seem like the mission was his idea, and he’s sour about it from the very start. Even before getting to know the... joys of Kirkwall. The whole time he’s chugging Fenris-worthy amounts of wine (look behind his throne). I can just imagine the Ariqun and Arigena getting together and going “is it just me, or does he always come into work fucking drunk?” “Can we put him on paid leave for a while?” Then, of course, he invades Kirkwall, and they go “Oooookay, we’ll have to mark that improvement plan down as a ‘failure’. Out you go!” Sweet Koslun, now my diplomats have to cover for this asshole.
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Post by gervaise21 on Mar 22, 2018 13:39:48 GMT
As I understand it, the Qun had been rather unlucky with their Arishoks before our Sten took over the role. The one he criticised had launched the last attack on mainland Tevinter that ended in failure in 9:12. This must have resulted in his replacement the following year because the Arishok who was sent after the Tome of Koslun did not take up the role until 9:25 and was said to have replaced the person who had occupied the role for the previous 12 years, who was killed on Seheron. Then the Kirkwall Arishok was either killed or disgraced on returning home in 9:34. So that makes it a total of 4 different Arishoks in the space of 22 years.
The Kirkwall Arishok had previous been the Kithshok of the Alam garrison on Seheron and was known to the Tevinter legates as the "Mad Ox" owing to the fact he was completely unpredictable and known for his often inspired but incredibly high risk battle tactics. You must question the selection process if he was considered the best choice for the role. I should imagine it came as no surprise when the news came to Par Vollen of his attempted coup but you may be right and perhaps they reason they left him stewing in the city for so long is they hoped something might happen that would remove the headache they had created for themselves. May be you are right and sending him after the tome in the first place was some sort of disciplinary action. This idea seems reinforced by the fact that the Rasaan, a high ranking member of the Ariqun, who is meant to accompany the Arishok everywhere, did not go with him on this mission. Nor did they see fit to send her to join him in Kirkwall. That said, if he had been successful in annexing Kirkwall, I doubt the leadership on Par Vollen would have been complaining.
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theascendent
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by theascendent on Mar 23, 2018 0:50:45 GMT
While the Dalish do have a romanticised view on their past, the same could be said for many nations and cultures of Thedas. For most stability and maintenance of the status quo is more important than progress, not to mention that there are factors that mitigate advancement. The Blights are the most severe case, but the latest lasted for little over a year and was confined in a still recovering young nation. Honestly the Thedas of modern times, the dragon age, appears to be entering a renaissance period after an incredibly long dark age. While we can't overturn any societies or make grand sweeping changes, a few tweaks here and there is sometimes a victory all on its own.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mar 23, 2018 1:20:51 GMT
If the city elves did not want to participate in the culture then may be they would stay back in the human cities being oppressed. All Paival says is that they would teach them the lore that they know about the elven ancestors, as opposed to making them participate in Chantry culture as happens at present. At least they wouldn't force their version of history on them at the same time as kicking them back into the gutter as human society does. One of the most depressing things about the DAO epilogues is that the elven ones were far more negative even when the elves (Dalish or City) were trying to work with their human neighbours rather than remain in isolation. I think the only epilogue that was worse was if Harrowmount was made King of the dwarves. The best outcome for them is if you have Dictator Bhelen in control who forces the dwarves into greater interaction with the surface world. The moral from the writers seems clear, you only achieve anything in Thedas if you force people to adopt your point of view: Hessarian, Drakon, Calenhad, Bhelen, the only exception being inspired Leliana, who somehow manages to pull off being simultaneously a peacemaker and a reformist. Shems is the insulting term for humans. Shemlen is just the old word for the human race, literally meaning "quick children", because that is how they seemed to the elves, according the lore. I should imagine the term "flat ear" came to be used about city elves because they are willing to live under the Chantry who doctored all the old pictures of Shartan to make him look human, effectively giving him "flat" ears. They have allowed themselves to be humanised. However, is because the "flat" ears have been living amongst the humans that he acknowledges they may have a better understanding of their ways than the Dalish do and hence be able to teach the Dalish how to live in peace with them. Flat ear is not intended to be an insult in the way that the human "knife ear" or "rabbit" is, the last one in particular suggesting that elves a little better than prey animals. (It always infuriated me that if I did not want to fail in the Winter Palace quest I had to put up with these sorts of insults being directed at me). That last sentence is the most revealing one. "That is the only way we shall truly live in peace". This seems to suggest that at least some Dalish are willing to admit that it was a failure to try and understand their human neighbours, instead just trying to isolate themselves from them, that led to the elves downfall in the past. Depressingly, even though the Dalish or City elves do try and to do this, their respective boons still end up going sour on them. However, it is clear that some people just do not want to acknowledge that there is any value in trying to maintain your individuality in a hostile world and are determined to undermine the Dalish attempts to do so. Except the Dalish do force their culture on the City Elves. If a City Elf is to join a clan, they have to completely drop everything about their culture and fully embrace the Dalish one. This is even in clans that are supposedly more open, like the one Paival is in. If they don't fully abandon the culture and beliefs that have been in their family for centuries now, they aren't allowed. Why would that be any different if the Dalish Elves managed to make a nation again? Also, the term flat ear is a derogatory term for City Elves by the Dalish, since according to the Codex it is the Dalish saying the City Elves are no different than human in their eyes. We see this in Origins if you play as a City Elf.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR
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Post by vit246 on Mar 23, 2018 4:58:37 GMT
If the city elves did not want to participate in the culture then may be they would stay back in the human cities being oppressed. All Paival says is that they would teach them the lore that they know about the elven ancestors, as opposed to making them participate in Chantry culture as happens at present. At least they wouldn't force their version of history on them at the same time as kicking them back into the gutter as human society does. One of the most depressing things about the DAO epilogues is that the elven ones were far more negative even when the elves (Dalish or City) were trying to work with their human neighbours rather than remain in isolation. I think the only epilogue that was worse was if Harrowmount was made King of the dwarves. The best outcome for them is if you have Dictator Bhelen in control who forces the dwarves into greater interaction with the surface world. The moral from the writers seems clear, you only achieve anything in Thedas if you force people to adopt your point of view: Hessarian, Drakon, Calenhad, Bhelen, the only exception being inspired Leliana, who somehow manages to pull off being simultaneously a peacemaker and a reformist. Shems is the insulting term for humans. Shemlen is just the old word for the human race, literally meaning "quick children", because that is how they seemed to the elves, according the lore. I should imagine the term "flat ear" came to be used about city elves because they are willing to live under the Chantry who doctored all the old pictures of Shartan to make him look human, effectively giving him "flat" ears. They have allowed themselves to be humanised. However, is because the "flat" ears have been living amongst the humans that he acknowledges they may have a better understanding of their ways than the Dalish do and hence be able to teach the Dalish how to live in peace with them. Flat ear is not intended to be an insult in the way that the human "knife ear" or "rabbit" is, the last one in particular suggesting that elves a little better than prey animals. (It always infuriated me that if I did not want to fail in the Winter Palace quest I had to put up with these sorts of insults being directed at me). That last sentence is the most revealing one. "That is the only way we shall truly live in peace". This seems to suggest that at least some Dalish are willing to admit that it was a failure to try and understand their human neighbours, instead just trying to isolate themselves from them, that led to the elves downfall in the past. Depressingly, even though the Dalish or City elves do try and to do this, their respective boons still end up going sour on them. However, it is clear that some people just do not want to acknowledge that there is any value in trying to maintain your individuality in a hostile world and are determined to undermine the Dalish attempts to do so. Except the Dalish do force their culture on the City Elves. If a City Elf is to join a clan, they have to completely drop everything about their culture and fully embrace the Dalish one. This is even in clans that are supposedly more open, like the one Paival is in. If they don't fully abandon the culture and beliefs that have been in their family for centuries now, they aren't allowed. Why would that be any different if the Dalish Elves managed to make a nation again? Also, the term flat ear is a derogatory term for City Elves by the Dalish, since according to the Codex it is the Dalish saying the City Elves are no different than human in their eyes. We see this in Origins if you play as a City Elf. "City Elf Culture" is merely Dalish culture incompleted. They give up nothing from joining. They gain back knowledge of the ancient traditions and language and the meaning behind them. Knowledge that their own codex admits they forget with each generation. And many Vhenadahls get chopped up for firefood, their meaning long since forgotten. Some City Elves are no different than humans. Like Devera.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mar 23, 2018 5:11:41 GMT
Except the Dalish do force their culture on the City Elves. If a City Elf is to join a clan, they have to completely drop everything about their culture and fully embrace the Dalish one. This is even in clans that are supposedly more open, like the one Paival is in. If they don't fully abandon the culture and beliefs that have been in their family for centuries now, they aren't allowed. Why would that be any different if the Dalish Elves managed to make a nation again? Also, the term flat ear is a derogatory term for City Elves by the Dalish, since according to the Codex it is the Dalish saying the City Elves are no different than human in their eyes. We see this in Origins if you play as a City Elf. "City Elf Culture" is merely Dalish culture incompleted. They give up nothing from joining. They gain back knowledge of the ancient traditions and language and the meaning behind them. Knowledge that their own codex admits they forget with each generation. And many Vhenadahls get chopped up for firefood, their meaning long since forgotten. Some City Elves are no different than humans. Like Devera. Incorrect. City Elves have developed their own culture through the centuries they have lived in the alienages, mixing aspects from other cultures with aspects they made themselves. And they absolutely would have to give up stuff by joining, for example their religion. So using a racial derogatory remark on all people in a group just because some members of the group fit that is okay?
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Post by gervaise21 on Mar 23, 2018 8:35:12 GMT
And they absolutely would have to give up stuff by joining, for example their religion.
This is something that has never been made entirely clear. The Dalish lore seems to suggest they acknowledge that Elgan'nan and Mythal were only responsible for creating the world of the elves, in other words elven civilisation, not the actual earth itself. Therefore it follows that someone else must have been responsible for that. I doubt the Dalish would object to someone venerating the "Wellspring of Creation", which would appear to be the original title that Andraste knew the Maker by. A religion that has a pantheon of gods is more likely to be accepting of respect being given to an additional one provided it doesn't contradict their own religion.
Whilst I think it highly unlikely that Ameridan's religious beliefs would have been acceptable to the Chantry as we know it, the fact that he could show respect to both Ghilan'nain and Andraste at the same time would suggest that honouring Andraste and the Creator God were acceptable to the Dalish of that time. Remember that the Dalish had been living quite peacefully alongside their barbarian neighbours for around 150 years before the introduction of the Chantry. Many of those tribes continued to worship the Maker alongside their own pantheon of gods. Ameridan does not appear to have been rejected by his fellow elves and their problem with him would not have been his religion so much as his friendship with Drakon. From what he says,the Dalish leadership objected to Drakon specifically. It was his desire to "simplify" things with regard to religion that caused all the problems. Remember he literally wiped out all those human groups who did not agree with his view of the Maker and did it in the name of his god. It is hardly surprising then that the Dalish knew it was only a matter of time before they were next. If anything their biggest mistake was not stepping in when he attacked their human neighbours but instead probably taking the view that it was nothing to do with them.
So City Elves would be expected to reject the Chantry and their idea of the Maker but then that organisation has largely responsible for the persecution of the elves and their reduction to second class citizens in the world. It is their teaching that has resulted in the city elves being vilified by their human neighbours even when they have done their utmost to try and fit in. This was brought out by the city elf origin. When elves from the alienage try and move up in the world and out of the alienage, they are attacked by the wider population and driven back again. This despite the fact they are following the Chantry religion. Our wedding vows were conducted by a Chantry sister and yet look how little respect Vaughan gave to that fact. Surely it is reasonable enough for the elf to be asked to reject an organisation that is actively opposed to what the Dalish stand for? If they do not reject the Chantry's teaching about the elves, why leave the city in the first place? If you believe in the Chantry religion then you believe that you deserve to be down in the gutter where they have placed you.
However, I think if a City Elf still wanted to honour Andraste then they would not have a problem with that. The Dalish did not erase Andraste from their lore as the Chantry did with Shartan. They continue to acknowledge her friendship with Shartan and that she was a human prophet for her god. Remember the Canticle of Shartan was not an invention of the Chantry. It was based off the oral traditions of the Dalish that Justinia I had written down and incorporated in the Chant at a time when Drakon was likely trying to appease the elves and keep them on side. That is why it includes the very controversial statement by Andraste to Shartan:
"Truly the Maker has called you, just and he called me, to a Light for your People."
Those words put Shartan on an equal footing with Andraste and so to my mind can only have come from the elves of the Dales. Clearly there is no suggestion there that Andraste is anything other than a prophet to the Creator God, which is what the Dalish still teach. What has been missing from Dalish teaching, particularly in the Dalish origin story, is specific mention of Shartan by name and veneration of his memory. We have only seen this in codices but at least it confirms that it is still there among their lore and why shouldn't it be? As Gisharel says, it was the humans who forgot that Andraste called Shartan "brother", not the elves. So if an elf from the city wanted to continue to honour Andraste as the friend of the elves, comrade in arms to Shartan and prophet of the Wellspring, alongside their own gods, I don't see they would have a problem with that. I would dearly love to know what Shartan believed. Remember it is possible to honour the Maker and Andraste and yet reject the Chantry and their version of the Chant of Light. The Ash Warriors are a human group that does this and their origins stretch back to a time before the Chantry, likely reflecting the beliefs of the barbarians at that time. Whilst the Ash Warriors do not give much respect to the elves, this has nothing to do with their religion, since they give highest honour to dwarves, another race denigrated by the Chantry but less obviously so since they need their lyrium.
What I would also like to know is how the Dalish would react to the lore revealed in Trespasser, particularly if the word was brought to them by one of their own. Would they bury their heads in the sand and refuse to acknowledge it, as the Chantry stalwarts do over everything that the Inquisitor discovers, or would it cause them to re-evaluate the past? It certainly does not negate their lore or traditions entirely. After all, even Solas admits that the Evanuris started out as revered leaders, so that aspect of the gods, recalling a time when they were "creators" rather than "overlord tyrants" and an inspiration to their people, would still be valid. An elven Inquisitor is told that the clans were watching their progress with interest, partly because of the hope it might improve their standing in the world, so I do not believe they would reject the information out of hand if it came from someone who had always respected their desire to recover the past.
If the majority of Dalish did refuse to listen because it contradicted their idealised view of the past, then I think that accusing them of being obsessed with their version of the past would be a valid criticism. However, I think the writers deliberately left it open to your own interpretation on how they would react. May be it would just hasten the aspect of the "clans growing apart" with the years that was introduced in DAI.
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Post by Iddy on Mar 23, 2018 11:15:29 GMT
And they absolutely would have to give up stuff by joining, for example their religion.
This is something that has never been made entirely clear. The Dalish lore seems to suggest they acknowledge that Elgan'nan and Mythal were only responsible for creating the world of the elves, in other words elven civilisation, not the actual earth itself. Therefore it follows that someone else must have been responsible for that. I doubt the Dalish would object to someone venerating the "Wellspring of Creation", which would appear to be the original title that Andraste knew the Maker by. A religion that has a pantheon of gods is more likely to be accepting of respect being given to an additional one provided it doesn't contradict their own religion.
Whilst I think it highly unlikely that Ameridan's religious beliefs would have been acceptable to the Chantry as we know it, the fact that he could show respect to both Ghilan'nain and Andraste at the same time would suggest that honouring Andraste and the Creator God were acceptable to the Dalish of that time. Remember that the Dalish had been living quite peacefully alongside their barbarian neighbours for around 150 years before the introduction of the Chantry. Many of those tribes continued to worship the Maker alongside their own pantheon of gods. Ameridan does not appear to have been rejected by his fellow elves and their problem with him would not have been his religion so much as his friendship with Drakon. From what he says,the Dalish leadership objected to Drakon specifically. It was his desire to "simplify" things with regard to religion that caused all the problems. Remember he literally wiped out all those human groups who did not agree with his view of the Maker and did it in the name of his god. It is hardly surprising then that the Dalish knew it was only a matter of time before they were next. If anything their biggest mistake was not stepping in when he attacked their human neighbours but instead probably taking the view that it was nothing to do with them.
So City Elves would be expected to reject the Chantry and their idea of the Maker but then that organisation has largely responsible for the persecution of the elves and their reduction to second class citizens in the world. It is their teaching that has resulted in the city elves being vilified by their human neighbours even when they have done their utmost to try and fit in. This was brought out by the city elf origin. When elves from the alienage try and move up in the world and out of the alienage, they are attacked by the wider population and driven back again. This despite the fact they are following the Chantry religion. Our wedding vows were conducted by a Chantry sister and yet look how little respect Vaughan gave to that fact. Surely it is reasonable enough for the elf to be asked to reject an organisation that is actively opposed to what the Dalish stand for? If they do not reject the Chantry's teaching about the elves, why leave the city in the first place? If you believe in the Chantry religion then you believe that you deserve to be down in the gutter where they have placed you.
However, I think if a City Elf still wanted to honour Andraste then they would not have a problem with that. The Dalish did not erase Andraste from their lore as the Chantry did with Shartan. They continue to acknowledge her friendship with Shartan and that she was a human prophet for her god. Remember the Canticle of Shartan was not an invention of the Chantry. It was based off the oral traditions of the Dalish that Justinia I had written down and incorporated in the Chant at a time when Drakon was likely trying to appease the elves and keep them on side. That is why it includes the very controversial statement by Andraste to Shartan:
"Truly the Maker has called you, just and he called me, to a Light for your People."
Those words put Shartan on an equal footing with Andraste and so to my mind can only have come from the elves of the Dales. Clearly there is no suggestion there that Andraste is anything other than a prophet to the Creator God, which is what the Dalish still teach. What has been missing from Dalish teaching, particularly in the Dalish origin story, is specific mention of Shartan by name and veneration of his memory. We have only seen this in codices but at least it confirms that it is still there among their lore and why shouldn't it be? As Gisharel says, it was the humans who forgot that Andraste called Shartan "brother", not the elves. So if an elf from the city wanted to continue to honour Andraste as the friend of the elves, comrade in arms to Shartan and prophet of the Wellspring, alongside their own gods, I don't see they would have a problem with that. I would dearly love to know what Shartan believed. Remember it is possible to honour the Maker and Andraste and yet reject the Chantry and their version of the Chant of Light. The Ash Warriors are a human group that does this and their origins stretch back to a time before the Chantry, likely reflecting the beliefs of the barbarians at that time. Whilst the Ash Warriors do not give much respect to the elves, this has nothing to do with their religion, since they give highest honour to dwarves, another race denigrated by the Chantry but less obviously so since they need their lyrium.
What I would also like to know is how the Dalish would react to the lore revealed in Trespasser, particularly if the word was brought to them by one of their own. Would they bury their heads in the sand and refuse to acknowledge it, as the Chantry stalwarts do over everything that the Inquisitor discovers, or would it cause them to re-evaluate the past? It certainly does not negate their lore or traditions entirely. After all, even Solas admits that the Evanuris started out as revered leaders, so that aspect of the gods, recalling a time when they were "creators" rather than "overlord tyrants" and an inspiration to their people, would still be valid. An elven Inquisitor is told that the clans were watching their progress with interest, partly because of the hope it might improve their standing in the world, so I do not believe they would reject the information out of hand if it came from someone who had always respected their desire to recover the past.
If the majority of Dalish did refuse to listen because it contradicted their idealised view of the past, then I think that accusing them of being obsessed with their version of the past would be a valid criticism. However, I think the writers deliberately left it open to your own interpretation on how they would react. May be it would just hasten the aspect of the "clans growing apart" with the years that was introduced in DAI.
It's not so much about whether the Dalish consider foreign beliefs real, but the fact that they see Andrastianism as the shem religion. A Maker believing elf wouldn't have many friends in the clan. Just look at Pol in DA2. When he praises the Creators, he sounds awkward and almost lets "Maker" slip out for a moment. You can tell he is just pretending so he can fit in. Why did he feel the need to do so?
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Post by gervaise21 on Mar 23, 2018 15:58:09 GMT
May be because he is aware of how the Dalish feel about the Chantry. Unfortunately, it is the attitude of the Chantry that has made worship of the Maker seem like the Shem religion.
I find more interesting is the question of what you put in place of the Dalish religion in the light of Trespasser. I'm not altogether convinced that the majority of elves were the unwilling slaves of the Evanuris, rather than devoted followers, which Solas and his supporters regarded as the same thing. However, if you do believe they were tyrant overlords and the elves were obliged to serve one or other of them or be branded a traitor, then continuing to worship them seems to run contrary to the central mantra of the Dalish "Never again will we submit". That might have referred to the human rulers but it would equally apply to anyone who wished to enslave them.
So where does that leave my Dalish heroes or even my City elf heroes if they do not want to kowtow to the Chantry's idea of religion? Both Dalish and City Elves seem to value loyalty to home and family and previously the Dalish had gods they associated with this but the fact that the god(s) have been revealed to be false, does not negate the value of this part of elven tradition. The "Way of Three Trees" seems an admirable philosophy of life by which a hunter should live, regardless of how you feel about Andruil. The various other stories and folk tales that reinforce their cultural lifestyle also still have a validity. None of this would suggest an obsession with the past but a desire to maintain a distinctive elven identity. Are my elves forced to be atheists because there is no god available to them that isn't associated with elven oppression?
Would you want the elves to ignore their past entirely and base their future existence entirely on human society and their cultural norms? This is what I struggle with when the Dalish are criticised for wishing to recover their past. I don't want my elves to be just pointy eared humans, particularly when the dominant culture of human society has so little that I find to admire: the Chantry, the Game, the Crows behind the throne of Antiva, etc, and even a society like that of Ferelden, that has much about it to admire, historically and recently has still denigrated the elves and had laws that outright discriminate against them.
I don't believe there is any society either in Thedas or the real world that doesn't value their cultural heritage in some way. How often are we told you must understand the past in order to progress in the future, or at the very least not repeat their mistakes. The Dalish are still trying to understand their own past but really it is the writers who prevent them from growing as a united people; instead preferring to say that they are now growing apart with the years. If that is true, then clearly the Dalish as a whole are not obsessed with the past.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mar 23, 2018 16:21:57 GMT
And they absolutely would have to give up stuff by joining, for example their religion.
This is something that has never been made entirely clear. The Dalish lore seems to suggest they acknowledge that Elgan'nan and Mythal were only responsible for creating the world of the elves, in other words elven civilisation, not the actual earth itself. Therefore it follows that someone else must have been responsible for that. I doubt the Dalish would object to someone venerating the "Wellspring of Creation", which would appear to be the original title that Andraste knew the Maker by. A religion that has a pantheon of gods is more likely to be accepting of respect being given to an additional one provided it doesn't contradict their own religion.
Whilst I think it highly unlikely that Ameridan's religious beliefs would have been acceptable to the Chantry as we know it, the fact that he could show respect to both Ghilan'nain and Andraste at the same time would suggest that honouring Andraste and the Creator God were acceptable to the Dalish of that time. Remember that the Dalish had been living quite peacefully alongside their barbarian neighbours for around 150 years before the introduction of the Chantry. Many of those tribes continued to worship the Maker alongside their own pantheon of gods. Ameridan does not appear to have been rejected by his fellow elves and their problem with him would not have been his religion so much as his friendship with Drakon. From what he says,the Dalish leadership objected to Drakon specifically. It was his desire to "simplify" things with regard to religion that caused all the problems. Remember he literally wiped out all those human groups who did not agree with his view of the Maker and did it in the name of his god. It is hardly surprising then that the Dalish knew it was only a matter of time before they were next. If anything their biggest mistake was not stepping in when he attacked their human neighbours but instead probably taking the view that it was nothing to do with them.
No, the Dales two biggest mistakes were not helping out Orlais when they were besieged by the Blight for nearly a century despite agreeing to since that was what started the hatred towards elves humans expressed, and then of course actually starting the war which eventually led to the fall of the Dales since that path of death and destruction cemented the hatred humans felt towards elves. Those events are more a cuse of all the current racism than the Chantry(not saying it was blameless). Though of course the Dalish never talk about those things, instead painting themselves as pure, innocent victims. So as I said, the Dalish would force the City Elves to abandon their religion. This would be like forcing Christians to not believe that Jesus Christ is the Savior but instead just a prophet. You know, the foundation of the religion. And let's look back at the Dales again, the nation that did not tolerate any belief in the Maker or Andraste as anything more than just some nice lady who helped them out way back when. We see this in multiple sources throughout the games, from them forcing out missionaries to murdering an Andrastian woman who was in love with a Dales elf because she would corrupt him. With Solas and the events of Trespasser, I imagine that the Dalish elves like all the other groups of elves will be divided between those who join him and those who do not.
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Post by gervaise21 on Mar 23, 2018 19:15:01 GMT
With Solas and the events of Trespasser, I imagine that the Dalish elves like all the other groups of elves will be divided between those who join him and those who do not. That's not quite the same thing, though. Dalish who are obsessed with bringing back the good old days might join him purely because he is the best chance of achieving that, then turn on him once their gods have been released. My Inquisitor does not approve of his plan to restore the world of the elves regardless of the cost to everyone else but leaves him stuck in limbo when it comes to religion because there is no way he is adopting the faith of the Chantry. In fact the revelation about Solas creating the Veil has created a huge element of doubt in his mind over whether there is a Maker at all, at least in the sense of a deity responsible for the creation of the universe since apparently he was content to let the usurpers mess with it in a reality changing way without doing anything to stop them. Plus, where do the Titans fit into the Maker's plan? No, the Dales two biggest mistakes were not helping out Orlais when they were besieged by the Blight for nearly a century despite agreeing to... Originally the lore concerning this was more vague on this. It is still the case that only Orlais version of events is the one being promoted. (I realise that in Jaws of Hakkon it is implied that the Orlesian story was the true one but I am still sceptical about this as the writers now seem determined to vilify the Dalish and no opportunity was granted to a Dalish Inquisitor to give their version of events or challenge the accepted view) The Core Rule Book actually says that the story by Orlais that the elves did nothing to help with Montsimmard seems suspicious since the elven version of events is not known. (This was the more neutral stance that the writers took back at the time of Origins). The fact that elves could allegedly be seen watching the city being overrun suggests they did march to help but got there too late to do any good, since it lies beyond the Dales proper. If the Wardens had treaties with the Dalish these must have been drawn up before the fall of the Dales and at least one Dalish story has a clan fighting the Blight up in the Anderfels. The darkspawn were emerging all over Thedas during the 2nd Blight, including in Ferelden. So there is every possibility that the Dalish were caught up fighting the darkspawn within their own borders, which indirectly would have aided Orlais as it would have prevented them from spilling over the border. I'd also point out that Orlais helping out with Blights has never been altruistic. Drakon was originally marching north to take advantage of Tevinter's weakness in the 2nd Blight, when he decided to turn aside and help out the Warden in the Anderfels instead and was rewarded by their conversion to his faith and annexing that nation. The Anderfels decided later in the 2nd Blight (after his death) that they would rather not be part of the Orlesian Empire after all. During the 3rd Blight Orlais ostensibly went to the assistance of the Marchers states against the darkspawn, only to take over the city state of Nevarra after the end of the Blight (Tevinter did the same to Hunter Fell), so then Nevarra was forced to fight for its independence. Then in the 4th Blight Orlais refused to send any official state sponsored help because the Blight was not affecting them personally and presumably they saw no gain in assisting against it. So it would seem Orlais only help against the Blight if they see a direct benefit to themselves in expanding their empire.
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Post by Iddy on Mar 24, 2018 13:05:52 GMT
And they absolutely would have to give up stuff by joining, for example their religion.
This is something that has never been made entirely clear. The Dalish lore seems to suggest they acknowledge that Elgan'nan and Mythal were only responsible for creating the world of the elves, in other words elven civilisation, not the actual earth itself. Therefore it follows that someone else must have been responsible for that. I doubt the Dalish would object to someone venerating the "Wellspring of Creation", which would appear to be the original title that Andraste knew the Maker by. A religion that has a pantheon of gods is more likely to be accepting of respect being given to an additional one provided it doesn't contradict their own religion.
Whilst I think it highly unlikely that Ameridan's religious beliefs would have been acceptable to the Chantry as we know it, the fact that he could show respect to both Ghilan'nain and Andraste at the same time would suggest that honouring Andraste and the Creator God were acceptable to the Dalish of that time. Remember that the Dalish had been living quite peacefully alongside their barbarian neighbours for around 150 years before the introduction of the Chantry. Many of those tribes continued to worship the Maker alongside their own pantheon of gods. Ameridan does not appear to have been rejected by his fellow elves and their problem with him would not have been his religion so much as his friendship with Drakon. From what he says,the Dalish leadership objected to Drakon specifically. It was his desire to "simplify" things with regard to religion that caused all the problems. Remember he literally wiped out all those human groups who did not agree with his view of the Maker and did it in the name of his god. It is hardly surprising then that the Dalish knew it was only a matter of time before they were next. If anything their biggest mistake was not stepping in when he attacked their human neighbours but instead probably taking the view that it was nothing to do with them.
So City Elves would be expected to reject the Chantry and their idea of the Maker but then that organisation has largely responsible for the persecution of the elves and their reduction to second class citizens in the world. It is their teaching that has resulted in the city elves being vilified by their human neighbours even when they have done their utmost to try and fit in. This was brought out by the city elf origin. When elves from the alienage try and move up in the world and out of the alienage, they are attacked by the wider population and driven back again. This despite the fact they are following the Chantry religion. Our wedding vows were conducted by a Chantry sister and yet look how little respect Vaughan gave to that fact. Surely it is reasonable enough for the elf to be asked to reject an organisation that is actively opposed to what the Dalish stand for? If they do not reject the Chantry's teaching about the elves, why leave the city in the first place? If you believe in the Chantry religion then you believe that you deserve to be down in the gutter where they have placed you.
However, I think if a City Elf still wanted to honour Andraste then they would not have a problem with that. The Dalish did not erase Andraste from their lore as the Chantry did with Shartan. They continue to acknowledge her friendship with Shartan and that she was a human prophet for her god. Remember the Canticle of Shartan was not an invention of the Chantry. It was based off the oral traditions of the Dalish that Justinia I had written down and incorporated in the Chant at a time when Drakon was likely trying to appease the elves and keep them on side. That is why it includes the very controversial statement by Andraste to Shartan:
"Truly the Maker has called you, just and he called me, to a Light for your People."
Those words put Shartan on an equal footing with Andraste and so to my mind can only have come from the elves of the Dales. Clearly there is no suggestion there that Andraste is anything other than a prophet to the Creator God, which is whWhat I would also like to know is how the Dalish would react to the lore revealed in Trespasser, particularly if the word was brought to them by one of their own. Would they bury their heads in the sand and refuse to acknowledge it, as the Chantry stalwarts do over everything that the Inquisitor discovers, or would it cause them to re-evaluate the past? It certainly does not negate their lore or traditions entirely. After all, even Solas admits that the Evanuris started out as revered leaders, so that aspect of the gods, recalling a time when they were "creators" rather than "overlord tyrants" and an inspiration to their people, would still be valid. An elven Inquisitor is told that the clans were watching their progress with interest, partly because of the hope it might improve their standing in the world, so I do not believe they would reject the information out of hand if it came from someone who had always respected their desire to recover the past.
If the majority of Dalish did refuse to listen because it contradicted their idealised view of the past, then I think that accusing them of being obsessed with their version of the past would be a valid criticism. However, I think the writers deliberately left it open to your own interpretation on how they would react. May be it would just hasten the aspect of the "clans growing apart" with the years that was introduced in DAI.
Well, you know how they reacted to Solas trying to teach them.
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Post by vit246 on Mar 24, 2018 16:53:30 GMT
Well, you know how they reacted to Solas trying to teach them. We still do not know the full CONTEXT of Solas trying to teach them. Only his version. And also Sera's. TRY looking at it from the DALISH POV. This random egghead flat-ear mage comes to their clan or Arlathvhen and claims to know the objective truth of their lore. Their gods were actually tyrannical mages who used vallaslin as slave brands and murdered Mythal and Fen Harel was a hero who fought for freedom and banished them to the Fade. The Dalish demand proof of this radical truth. Solas claims to walk the Fade like a Dreamer, meaning only he can confirm it. And now he looks like a flat-ear asshole trying to tear them apart, so they tell him to fuck off. Or maybe they try to argue they never claimed their gods were all-loving and all-benevolent, or the vallaslin today have nothing to do with slaves since they choose it, and Solas refuses to listen. My personal version (not to be taken seriously) SOLAS "Sup' nerds I'm here to tell you everything you know is fake news, your gods are faking capital A-holes and your gnarly tats' mean "slaves". Also I got all this radical gnawledge from surfing the gnarly Fade which only I, a Surfer, can do. Get on my level noobs."
DALISH "Hey flat-ear baldie we know we don't know everything, thats why we keep going around trying to find out the truth. You think its easy doing maintenance for a metaphorical library that got destroyed twice in two great falls? We don't even get paid! Whatever the gods may have been, surely they cannot be simplified into pure evil just as we never simplified them into pure good. Whatever the Vallaslin were a thousand years ago, we control them now. We have no masters. We choose them for our unwavering faith, our People, and for ourselves. Also, we need a unbiased second opinion of someone else who can surf the Fade and confirm your citations plz."
SOLAS "Whatever nerds. I have transcended the need for your phony gods. I am euphoric. I am enlightened by my own intelligence."
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Post by gervaise21 on Mar 24, 2018 17:45:10 GMT
What you also have to remember is how contrary to Dalish beliefs about spirits would be allowing communing with spirits in the Fade to be used as justification for his claims and why they might have ejected him from camp on the strength of that alone. You see, in case you are not familiar with this bit of lore, World of Thedas states that: "Unlike other spellcasters, Dalish mages do not use any magic involving spirits, as they believe all spirits are dangerous." Obviously there are individuals like Merrill and Thelhen who ignored this general rule about the Dalish but I think you can safely assume that the clan(s) Solas came into contact with would likely responded in the negative if he admitted to doing so and immediately want him out of their general vicinity. Given how much disapproval we can garner if we react to his assertions about the Fade and spirits in the way that the majority of citizens of Thedas would it is hardly something that illustrates the inflexibility and prejudice of the Dalish with regard to Solas.
May be Solas should be a bit more understanding of the cultural background of all people he deals with, not just the Dalish, and be a bit more tactful and less ready to take offence when they do not immediately accept his word as sacrosanct.
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Post by opuspace on Mar 26, 2018 3:51:36 GMT
Except the Dalish do force their culture on the City Elves. If a City Elf is to join a clan, they have to completely drop everything about their culture and fully embrace the Dalish one. This is even in clans that are supposedly more open, like the one Paival is in. If they don't fully abandon the culture and beliefs that have been in their family for centuries now, they aren't allowed. Why would that be any different if the Dalish Elves managed to make a nation again? Also, the term flat ear is a derogatory term for City Elves by the Dalish, since according to the Codex it is the Dalish saying the City Elves are no different than human in their eyes. We see this in Origins if you play as a City Elf. Was there any mention of the Dalish ejecting city elves for not believing in the Creators? It is canon that city elves are forbidden to worship anyone but the Maker in exchange for being granted the mercy of staying in the alienage by Andrastians. dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Codex_entry:_The_City_ElvesIf the Warden is a not a City nor Dalish elf or in Dragon Age II... When the holy Exalted March of the Dales resulted in the dissolution of the elven kingdom, leaving a great many elves homeless once again, the Divine Renata I declared that all lands loyal to the Chantry must give the elves refuge within their own walls. Considering the atrocities committed by the elves at Red Crossing, this was a great testament to the Chantry's charity. There was one condition, however--the elves were to lay aside their pagan gods and live under the rule of the Chantry.
Some of the elves refused our goodwill. They banded together to form the wandering Dalish elves, keeping their old elven ways--and their hatred of humans--alive. To this day, Dalish elves still terrorize those of us who stray too close to their camps. Most of the elves, however, saw that it was wisest to live under the protection of humans.
And so we took the elves into our cities and tried to integrate them. We invited them into our own homes and gave them jobs as servants and farmhands. Here, in Denerim, the elves even have their own quarter, governed by an elven keeper. Most have proven to be productive members of society. Still, a small segment of the elven community remains dissatisfied. These troublemakers and malcontents roam the streets causing mayhem, rebelling against authority and making a general nuisance of themselves.
--From Ferelden: Folklore and History, by Sister Petrine, Chantry scholar
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Post by opuspace on Mar 26, 2018 3:59:22 GMT
As for the Dalish being obsessed with the past...I'd say it varies. Putting more value on artifacts over trying to establish a stable place to defend future generations would qualify for me, but the rub is that they don't really have a place where they can all gather safely. Clan Lavellan is a progressive group that regularly trades with humans, but they were quickly used as scapegoats when things went wrong with Wycome.
The other issue is that when Andrastians are trying to push their faith on others, it's only going to cause others to double down. Cassandra is notorious for wanting the Inquisitor to consider the Maker in their heart if they say they worship elven gods, yet Cassandra will mock Lavellan's faith in the temple of Mythal. That kind of attitude tells me that elves have a harder time choosing what they can believe in without pressure from both sides.
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theascendent
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
PSN: The Ascendent
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May 10, 2024 21:42:29 GMT
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Aug 28, 2017 10:17:49 GMT
August 2017
theascendent
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
The Ascendent
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Post by theascendent on Mar 26, 2018 11:16:06 GMT
I always got the impression that whenever people interacted with my Lavellan, they were humoring them when it came to their religious beliefs, especially when interacting with Mother Giselle. Don't get me wrong, she's a nice person who genuinely believes in the Maker and Andraste and doesn't hesitate to criticize the Chantry, yet when I talked with her on the issue of faith, I always got the impression that she was dismissive of the Elven Gods, writing them off as 'aspects of the Maker' rather than their own unique entities with personalities and mythos. She came across as if my interpretation of faith was incorrect and that only by worshiping her religion would I better understand faith and it's importance, which came off as incredibly patronizing and belittling. Imagine how Chantry people would react if I wrote of the Maker as just 'an aspect of the Creators'.
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