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Post by Walter Black on Apr 12, 2018 18:36:43 GMT
At least the Temple didn't have a timer on it, where taking too long resulted in the Venatori getting to the Well first, so there was no actual penalty in taking as long as you like in the tiles area. You had to use your imagination to feel any guilt at all about taking the longer path. Which was something of a relief as I wanted to read all the codices and hear the exchanges with Solas and Morrigan because I am interested in elven history and sure enough, if I had left things until later, I'd have lost my chance. Chalk it up to Gameplay and Story Segregation; myself, I wouldn't have minded more urgency and a possible Non Standard Game Over, but most players could feel cheated out of content since you can't come back to the Arbor Wilds. it's pretty much an RPG staple at this point that the Big Bad will take 5 while the player picks reagents, goes on dates, or becomes Arena Champion .
As for checking out murals, I always headcanon that there are more people and larger areas than displayed onscreen (there certainly was in my Val Royeax ). So the Inquisitor would have had a full battalion of troops, mages, scouts, healers and such to scower the area and get all the necessary information.
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Post by Walter Black on Apr 12, 2018 18:51:51 GMT
What would be the best way for the Dalish to deal with the truth about the vallaslin, when that information finally reaches them? Have it removed and abolish the tradition? Just change their meaning and carry on? Or perhaps come up with new designs. In retrospect, I do agree there should have been at least one option for Lavellan to be skeptical of Solas' revelation:
"Oh, you discovered the 'truth' about our Valasslin from ancient Fade memories? The same Fade where the landscape can change on a dreamer's whim? The same Fade where Spirits' entire being become Demons if that's what one expects? The same Fade where memories of Loghain Mac Tir being a power mad tyrant and a desperately pragmatic patriot are both the truth?"
Hell, while we're at it the Inquisitor should have been able to call Solas crazy and dangerous in Trespasser, but not believe his claims of being the Dread Wolf, Evanaris reveals, or being able to bring down the Veil.
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 12, 2018 19:37:33 GMT
In retrospect, I do agree there should have been at least one option for Lavellan to be skeptical of Solas' revelation:
"Oh, you discovered the 'truth' about our Valasslin from ancient Fade memories? The same Fade where the landscape can change on a dreamer's whim? The same Fade where Spirits' entire being become Demons if that's what one expects? The same Fade where memories of Loghain Mac Tir being a power mad tyrant and a desperately pragmatic patriot are both the truth?"
Hell, while we're at it the Inquisitor should have been able to call Solas crazy and dangerous in Trespasser, but not believe his claims of being the Dread Wolf, Evanaris reveals, or being able to bring down the Veil. I'd have liked this. The problem with the vallaslin revelation is that he only gives it face to face to a romanced Lavellan and if you have got that far with him, it is likely you are so besotted you are going to swallow it whole or break up with him, which I suppose they felt was the equivalent of not believing him. But I take your point that his justification for all his assertions at this point is always "I saw it in the Fade" and he does say it is all a matter of perspective (except when it suits him not to). I did wonder how finding those few extra clues were meant to be able to allow you to immediately state that he was the Dread Wolf, instead of him telling you, particularly if you weren't in a romance with him so you had never witnessed him removing your vallaslin. Every ancient elf we have met has been bald, but so was Zathrian, and he was just a grief crazed zealot but a modern elf none the less. I didn't feel the additional clues were conclusive proof, although the warning by the Evanuris against the Dread Wolf did seem to describe him to a tee. As for his claim to be the Dread Wolf, even if the Inquisitor believes him and those closest to them, the epilogue seemed to hint that others may have reacted by sticking their heads in the sand (like they did when Hawke found out about the Qunari agents in Kirkwall) or probably thinking that it was the claim of some mad elf with delusions of grandeur. The words were definitely something like "Those who believed the Inquisitor.....wondered what the Dread Wolf was planning". When you think about it, no one witnessed their exchange. I can see some people, like Teagan, suggesting that the Inquisitor exaggerated the danger in order to stay in power. When you hear the arguments as you walk towards the Council Chamber at the end, Teagan seems more focussed on the fact that Solas has stirred up trouble with the Qunari rather than he is planning to destroy the world. It needed my aggressive disband speech to remind them of that fact, whether they believed me or not.
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 12, 2018 19:44:18 GMT
What would be the best way for the Dalish to deal with the truth about the vallaslin, when that information finally reaches them? Have it removed and abolish the tradition? Just change their meaning and carry on? Or perhaps come up with new designs. I'd go with changing the meaning or saying it honours what the gods once were, before they became corrupted by power, so they are also a sort of cautionary reminder of why the elven empire fell. They now mark you as descendants of the Dales, not slaves and refusing to surrender to tyranny of empires, whatever the race, rather than anything they might have been in Arlathan.
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Post by Iddy on Apr 12, 2018 19:49:56 GMT
What would be the best way for the Dalish to deal with the truth about the vallaslin, when that information finally reaches them? Have it removed and abolish the tradition? Just change their meaning and carry on? Or perhaps come up with new designs. I'd go with changing the meaning or saying it honours what the gods once were, before they became corrupted by power, so they are also a sort of cautionary reminder of why the elven empire fell. They now mark you as descendants of the Dales, not slaves and refusing to surrender to tyranny of empires, whatever the race, rather than anything they might have been in Arlathan. As Lavellan tells Solas when turning down the offer to remove it: "I don't wear the vallaslin for the ancient elves. I wear it for me."
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 15, 2018 8:05:09 GMT
Do you think there is any connection between the meaning of vallaslin as used by the ancient elves and the dwarven practice of marking the casteless? If the vallaslin were used as slave markings then it follows that the children of slaves would be marked at an early age as well. If you are born a casteless dwarf you are branded as a child, so you have no hope of being regarded as anything else. Corypheus asks in Legacy if you are slaves of the dwarves, so they definitely had them at one time and we now know there was once a very close connection between the elves and the dwarves. It seems implied the elves were "liberating" the dwarves from the titans but we have no idea what the nature of that "freedom" might have been.
So long as the vallaslin seemed to indicate higher status in elven society (according to the Dalish) and the dwarven brand was given to the lowest level of their society, it was difficult to see any connection between them, but if both societies marked the lowest level of society to identify them as such that seems too much of a coincidence to me.
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Post by theascendent on Apr 15, 2018 12:16:40 GMT
"We were everyone. There were no humans, no dwarves, no race but the elves." Felassan. Considering how the ability to perform magic was integral to the identity of being an Elf, one can imagine that they wouldn't even see the Dwarves/Proto-Dwarves as even people. "In this place we prepare to hunt the pillars of the earth. Their workers scurry, witless, soulless. This death will be a mercy. We will make the earth blossom with their passing." I imagine that the Ancient Elves enslaved the ancestors of the Dwarves and marked them with those caste brands to distinguish between them. The Dwarves eventually developed their own culture after Solas began his rebellion, the Elves were too distracted by the war to bother looking after the Dwarves. Then the Veil was erected and the Elves were diminished and I imagine that the Titans not killed by the Elves entered hibernation to conserve their strength. Without the Elves or the Titans influencing them the Dwarves had to make a new identity for themselves.
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Post by ellehaym on Apr 15, 2018 16:09:33 GMT
Yeah, I agree that the Elves did not consider Dwarves as "people." If Solas and other Elvhen don't consider modern elves as one of theirs due to not being connecting to the Fade, I can easily imagine them not regarding Dwarves as anything less since they're not connected to the Fade at all and can't dream.
I think ancient dwarves had some form of hive-mind, but they weren't mindless like Darkspawn. They were connected to each other, maybe something similar to Avatar's Na'vi? The elves took that away from them thinking that doing so will give them individual will.
As for the Vallaslin, I wonder how it's made? Is magic involved in someway and if it's done the same way as the ancient elves did? Solas was able to lift it off.
Then there's also Fenris' lyrium markings (looks like vallaslin) that was apparently used by ancient tevinters, whom we know used a lot of elvhen techniques.
Lastly, drinking from the well of sorrows seem to put markings on the drinker (their soul) and controls them that way. There were a lot of drinkers of the well, so why would the inquisitor drinking it make it all disappear?
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 15, 2018 17:52:24 GMT
Lastly, drinking from the well of sorrows seem to put markings on the drinker (their soul) and controls them that way. There were a lot of drinkers of the well, so why would the inquisitor drinking it make it all disappear? Well I assume this has something to do with the fact that Mythal was behind it. Why did her priesthood maintain the Well for millennia and then surrender it when they did? Of course, if you don't do the tiles or agree to Abelas' proposal then you simply kill them but the end result is the same, either the Inquisitor or Morrigan drink and then they are bound to the will of Mythal, or her priesthood, or both. Whilst the Well seemed to disappear, the shade of Mythal was still present in the area where it once was. Mythal was "born of the sea", so essentially she was a water spirit and that is how the figure appeared to me, so may be the spirit of Mythal absorbed the Well. In other words, it would never have fallen into the wrong hands so far as Mythal was concerned. Then the spirit went through the eluvian, presumably to make contact with her current vessel, Flemeth.
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Post by ellehaym on Apr 15, 2018 18:31:55 GMT
Yes, I forgot about that spirit that sprung out of the Well.
I am reminded of how Mythal "walked out of the sea of the earth's tears" now only is there a Well of Sorrows, but it's also built on top of a large body of water. Makes me wonder if that's Mythal's "birthplace"
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 15, 2018 21:46:18 GMT
Makes me wonder if that's Mythal's "birthplace" Now there's a thought. I thought originally that the priests named the Well because of their sorrow after Mythal's death but you are right, the location could be where the earth's tears had accumulated in sorrow and from which Mythal was born. After all the Temple was in the middle of a large body of water. Very symbolic.
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Post by Mark7 on Apr 20, 2018 12:09:15 GMT
In general I dislike people who dwell too much in the past,to the point of being obsessive and with the only purpose of restoring ancient magic who belonged to ancient cultures. These are the kind people who will never innovate nor understand what tecnhology is,they are the ruin of Thedas. That's the main reason why I dislike people like the Dalish,Flemeth,Solas,Morrigan and anyone who is so attached to the preistory. They are all about magic and that's why they never innovate.If the Qunari are more advanced is precisely because they don't rely on magic with such obsession and if the trends continue this way we will have QUnari with shotguns and aircraft and Theodosians still talking about witches or about making enchanted swords.
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Post by cloud9 on Jun 2, 2018 13:21:15 GMT
Some might say the Dalish are just trying to recover what has been lost and undo the damage done to their culture. But maybe they are so focused on it that it prevents them from moving on and developing as a society. They will never be like the ancient elves, so it might be time to reinvent what it means to be elven. I understand why they want to discover and hold on to their lost history and culture, because their ancestors have lost everything since Tevinter took everything from them.
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Post by Catilina on Jun 2, 2018 19:41:34 GMT
In general I dislike people who dwell too much in the past,to the point of being obsessive and with the only purpose of restoring ancient magic who belonged to ancient cultures. These are the kind people who will never innovate nor understand what tecnhology is,they are the ruin of Thedas. That's the main reason why I dislike people like the Dalish,Flemeth,Solas,Morrigan and anyone who is so attached to the preistory. They are all about magic and that's why they never innovate.If the Qunari are more advanced is precisely because they don't rely on magic with such obsession and if the trends continue this way we will have QUnari with shotguns and aircraft and Theodosians still talking about witches or about making enchanted swords.What about both. Anders' very creative, isn't? Enchanted lyrium black powder! Great! Wanting to know the history, not meant to live in the past.
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Post by Iddy on Jun 4, 2018 1:01:10 GMT
In general I dislike people who dwell too much in the past,to the point of being obsessive and with the only purpose of restoring ancient magic who belonged to ancient cultures. These are the kind people who will never innovate nor understand what tecnhology is,they are the ruin of Thedas. That's the main reason why I dislike people like the Dalish,Flemeth,Solas,Morrigan and anyone who is so attached to the preistory. They are all about magic and that's why they never innovate.If the Qunari are more advanced is precisely because they don't rely on magic with such obsession and if the trends continue this way we will have QUnari with shotguns and aircraft and Theodosians still talking about witches or about making enchanted swords. That isn't a problem in a world where magic is actually real. You talk as if they were clinging to silly superstition.
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Post by Walter Black on Jun 5, 2018 15:26:54 GMT
In general I dislike people who dwell too much in the past,to the point of being obsessive and with the only purpose of restoring ancient magic who belonged to ancient cultures. These are the kind people who will never innovate nor understand what tecnhology is,they are the ruin of Thedas. That's the main reason why I dislike people like the Dalish,Flemeth,Solas,Morrigan and anyone who is so attached to the preistory. They are all about magic and that's why they never innovate.If the Qunari are more advanced is precisely because they don't rely on magic with such obsession and if the trends continue this way we will have QUnari with shotguns and aircraft and Theodosians still talking about witches or about making enchanted swords. That isn't a problem in a world where magic is actually real. You talk as if they were clinging to silly superstition. Except that, barring the Veil coming down, magic in Thedas remains a very rare genetic recessive. Fear of magic and demons, as well as various wars for land and resources, should have forced normals to research alternatives to balance the scales. But it rarely happens. We all know the real reason for the technological stagnation, that medieval fantasies are still more popular than steampunk or urban ones. It makes sense in Tevinter, where mages would want to suppress anything that could threaten their rule, from technological as well as social, philosophical and economical standpoints. But the rest of Thedas? No, not really.
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Post by Sifr on Jun 6, 2018 4:50:29 GMT
Except that, barring the Veil coming down, magic in Thedas remains a very rare genetic recessive. Fear of magic and demons, as well as various wars for land and resources, should have forced normals to research alternatives to balance the scales. But it rarely happens. We all know the real reason for the technological stagnation, that medieval fantasies are still more popular than steampunk or urban ones. It makes sense in Tevinter, where mages would want to suppress anything that could threaten their rule, from technological as well as social, philosophical and economical standpoints. But the rest of Thedas? No, not really. The (sadly defunct) Grey Wardens fansite did an essay theorising that the medieval stasis in Thedas might be a result of the Blights. Every few centuries, the Darkspawn show up to wipe out huge amounts of the population, destroy most of the infrastructure and taint the land so that it takes years/decades/centuries to recover.
The impact of the Blights and their over-reliance on magic might be why most of Thedas have stagnated in terms of technological development, while the Qunari (who've never suffered a Blight and generally shun magic) have advanced to the point they have cannons, high-yield explosives and chemical nerve-agents.
The Dwarves are the exception, being somewhat in the middle as they've had to constantly deal with Blights, while having no innate magic (beyond enchanting) to fall back on, forcing them to develop technologically.
If it weren't for the loss of their Empire (limiting their ability to expand), the constant threat of Darkspawn at the door and cultural stagnation from a strong adherence to tradition (making them slow/reluctant to change/adapt), the Dwarves could have easily ended up more technologically advanced than even the Qunari by now.
The lack of the first two problems and a tendency to shirk the third, might be why the Surface Dwarves do seem slightly more advanced than their subterranean brethren. For instance, Bianca managed to invent a successful repeating crossbow and Dworkin supposedly cracked the formula for Gaatlok, forcing him to go into hiding from Qunari assassins.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 6, 2018 8:47:57 GMT
I think the effect of the Blights every few centuries should not be under estimated. Even in our world it is evident that societies advance technologically only for the knowledge to be lost/buried through some major event or string of events such as war, pandemic or other natural disaster. Tevinter had always been heavily reliant on magic so had no incentive to develop non magical technology. The dwarves having an economy closely tied to the human Imperium and otherwise not feeling under threat, had no real incentive to non-magical research either. The barbarians in the south were limited by being under constant threat from the north but without the resources to develop in other ways. Also being fragmented into warring tribes meant that knowledge was not shared in a way that would allow development.
Then we had the First Blight. This spurred the dwarves enough that they created Golems that were a technology/magic combination but after that their empire fragmented and much knowledge was probably lost with it. Topside they were fighting for survival for the next 200 years but all reports suggest that magic was actually what enabled them to hold back the tide. Since the end of the First Blight Thedas history has been a long string of internal and inter-state conflicts between a series of Blights. It is hardly surprising that they made little headway in developing alternative technologies before the Qun arrived.
There is a codex where the writer suggests that with greater prominence being given to non-magical education the people of Thedas may start coming up with innovative ways of solving their problems that do not rely on magic and catch up with the Qunari on the technological front. Nor does everything have to have military applications. The university in Markham in the Freemarches understandably concentrates on agricultural research. It would seem that Orlais has a particular interest in mathematics, which would have many uses but engineering particularly springs to mind. These recent developments have largely come about because of the relative peace that has existed since the Llomerryn Accord was signed and the fact that the Fifth Blight was ended so quickly. Even the dwarves may start making progress if Bhelen was put on the throne.
However, against this progress you have to look at the fact that the biggest threat to the welfare of all Thedosians is still from magic and magic will likely be needed to solve this.
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Post by xerrai on Jun 6, 2018 13:20:52 GMT
Except that, barring the Veil coming down, magic in Thedas remains a very rare genetic recessive. Fear of magic and demons, as well as various wars for land and resources, should have forced normals to research alternatives to balance the scales. But it rarely happens. We all know the real reason for the technological stagnation, that medieval fantasies are still more popular than steampunk or urban ones. It makes sense in Tevinter, where mages would want to suppress anything that could threaten their rule, from technological as well as social, philosophical and economical standpoints. But the rest of Thedas? No, not really. The (sadly defunct) Grey Wardens fansite did an essay theorising that the medieval stasis in Thedas might be a result of the Blights. Every few centuries, the Darkspawn show up to wipe out huge amounts of the population, destroy most of the infrastructure and taint the land so that it takes years/decades/centuries to recover.
The impact of the Blights and their over-reliance on magic might be why most of Thedas have stagnated in terms of technological development, while the Qunari (who've never suffered a Blight and generally shun magic) have advanced to the point they have cannons, high-yield explosives and chemical nerve-agents.
The Dwarves are the exception, being somewhat in the middle as they've had to constantly deal with Blights, while having no innate magic (beyond enchanting) to fall back on, forcing them to develop technologically.
If it weren't for the loss of their Empire (limiting their ability to expand), the constant threat of Darkspawn at the door and cultural stagnation from a strong adherence to tradition (making them slow/reluctant to change/adapt), the Dwarves could have easily ended up more technologically advanced than even the Qunari by now.
The lack of the first two problems and a tendency to shirk the third, might be why the Surface Dwarves do seem slightly more advanced than their subterranean brethren. For instance, Bianca managed to invent a successful repeating crossbow and Dworkin supposedly cracked the formula for Gaatlok, forcing him to go into hiding from Qunari assassins.
I don't think an over-reliance of magic is actually too prevalent in most of Thedas. For the avaar, Rivaini and Dalish maybe: all of them openly allow thier mages to interact with the populace. But for the rest of Thedas? The Chantry/Circles make it so that it is only by wealth or Chantry charity (which becomes rare) that a person gains regular access to actual Circle healing services. Otherwise I think the Circles most primary form of offering healing to common people is through products like alchemical potions and poultices--both forms of healing that do not neccesarily require magic. But the tradeoff is that despite most common people not being too reliant of magic due to the scarcity of mages in thier lives, it is those who do have access to these mages and thier services (usually the wealthy) end up having a higher probability of relying on magic for thier ills. Even though they actually have more resources in terms of being able to get the education and research required to not rely on magic too much.
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Post by dmc1001 on Jun 7, 2018 8:11:29 GMT
Some might say the Dalish are just trying to recover what has been lost and undo the damage done to their culture. But maybe they are so focused on it that it prevents them from moving on and developing as a society. They will never be like the ancient elves, so it might be time to reinvent what it means to be elven. Except that repression remains for elves. City elves have the worst of it so why would the Dalish consider themselves safe from humans? They wouldn't. Sure, maybe it could never be what it was but that doesn't mean they can't try to recover at least some of what was lost. I mean, just in real world human society we're always trying to figure out our past.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 7, 2018 9:11:59 GMT
Some might say the Dalish are just trying to recover what has been lost and undo the damage done to their culture. But maybe they are so focused on it that it prevents them from moving on and developing as a society. They will never be like the ancient elves, so it might be time to reinvent what it means to be elven.
Considering that we have now been told that the Dalish re-construction of their past bears no resemblance to the reality, there is an argument for saying they have already "reinvented" what it is to be elven. The past they are trying to preserve is the culture of the Dales, not Arlathan, and there is nothing wrong with that. There are many things to be admired about Dalish culture, such as solidarity in community and family, looking out for one another and healthy competition for key roles in that community without the accompanying back-stabbing we find in human and dwarven society. The gods of their religion are symbolic of these ideals rather than true reflections of what they actually were, thus their religion still has a degree of validity to it provided this difference is acknowledged. So if the Dalish just altered their mantra to "we are the last of the free elves" rather than the last of the elvhen (of Arlathan) and "never again will we submit" then they are free to move forward keeping what was best of the culture of the Dales and building upon it.
Many Dalish we have encountered seem to recognise a need to work with the wider world rather than simply reject it in its entirety. However, being part of that wider community should not mean surrendering your own identity or being expected to accept being denigrated and have a subservient role in society. Their suspicions about humans, particularly those in positions of power, are well founded. The testimony of every elf who has ever fled to them from the alienage will have confirmed them. What did the city elves gain by surrendering the majority of their culture and adopting the religion of their conquerors? Absolutely nothing.
I would also point out that any gains that Briala made for the elves were dependent on Celene's whims and as she finally recognised, Celene would be only too willing to backtrack if supporting the elves damaged her position of power. Briala only really achieved anything when she came into possession of an elven relic of the past that gave her an edge. From this perspective, it would seem that the Dalish desire to recover their ancient relics is not without merit.
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Post by ellehaym on Jun 7, 2018 16:18:29 GMT
Much like how Tevinter took many things from the ancient Elves and integrated it into their own society, I wonder if the same could be said about Orlais when they defeated the Dales?
On the top of my head, some of the artwork/style look very elvish. Felassan said that Orlais reminded him alot of how the ancient elves acted. So maybe the courtly politics of the Dales were somewhat similar?
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 7, 2018 17:16:41 GMT
On the top of my head, some of the artwork/style look very elvish. Felassan said that Orlais reminded him alot of how the ancient elves acted. So maybe the courtly politics of the Dales were somewhat similar?
No you can't blame the Game on the Dalish, it was around before Drakon. Give him his due he tried to get rid of it without success. Nevertheless he was pretty ruthless with his politics. Let's wipe out all opposition so I can have an empire. He was influenced by Tevinter; he was after all the non-magical grandson of a Tevinter Altus. His father was the same and no doubt tried his luck in the south because he couldn't rise in Tevinter politics due to his lack of magic. Orlais wasn't really a nation at that time but just the location of many Cirianne tribes that had a tradition of a High Queen or Gothi who nominally united them. Drakon's father married a potential Gothi, ensured she got the position and Drakon took it from there.
So Tevinter was influenced by Ancient Arlathen and Orlais was influenced by Tevinter. That is essentially why the Dalish leaders could look at the situation there and declared that it was no better than Tevinter. However, the similarities are really because of the empire building mentality that all three civilisations share.
However, it is true that the Dalish did seem to develop a hierarchy during the short period of the Dales as the different Dalish clans are said to be descended from the various noble houses. It could be that the tradition of the vallaslin was handed down through families that had originally been nobility in ancient Arlathan and that is how it came to be part of the later tradition of the Dales. So there could have been a direct influence of ancient Arlathan on the political set up in the Dales but I doubt that the Orlesians would have copied it.
Since both the Dalish and the City Elves have a strong tradition of solidarity in the community against outsiders and among family that would seem to be the common influence that they took with them from the Dales. That need to remain united against external threats probably reduced the amount of political backstabbing that was present in the society.
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