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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Apr 6, 2018 21:34:09 GMT
No, I hated how we could only play as a Pro-Dalish Dalish because they forced the vallaslin on us. As I've explained in the past, in DAI with any of the other races while you did have a background you could choose how you felt about that background. For example a human non-mage can be either in total support of the Chantry or have big disagreements about it. The dwarf and qunari backgrounds could either love or hate their past career. For all of these, all views were valid. Yet for the elf, being anything other than a super Pro-Dalish Dalish didn't work because you had to have the 'Property Of' mark stamped into your face. Even in DAO you didn't have to do this. So yes while I would have preferred a City Elf, I did not loathe being only able to play a Dalish Elf since I've enjoyed it before but I loathed ghow you could only be a certain kind of Dalish Elf. Why are you convinced it means, "Property of *insert Dalish god*" and not some other meaning? What type of Dalish personality do you see being forced onto the Inquisitor? Because of that scene with Solas where he tells you as much (too bad that only happens if you romance Solas). I know he is the Dread Wolf, but that along with the final discussion in Trespasser really seems to be a case of him being a walking codex entry thus the truth. As for personality, I said in my post that it forces a Pro-Dalish personality on them since you have to be fully committed to the faith to agree to get that burned into you.
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Post by opuspace on Apr 6, 2018 21:39:12 GMT
Why are you convinced it means, "Property of *insert Dalish god*" and not some other meaning? What type of Dalish personality do you see being forced onto the Inquisitor? Because of that scene with Solas where he tells you as much (too bad that only happens if you romance Solas). I know he is the Dread Wolf, but that along with the final discussion in Trespasser really seems to be a case of him being a walking codex entry thus the truth. As for personality, I said in my post that it forces a Pro-Dalish personality on them since you have to be fully committed to the faith to agree to get that burned into you. Who's to say Lavellan has to be fully committed to the faith? They could have gone through the motions because it had a personal meaning for them beyond it merely "honoring the gods". Perhaps they may believe in the ideals, but not the actual god itself. Since Lavellan can claim they don't believe in any gods to Cassandra, does that not make it possible? I'm well aware we both are unhappy with the roleplay limitations of Lavellan for different reasons but I recall you being unhappy long before the game came out.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Apr 6, 2018 21:46:39 GMT
Because of that scene with Solas where he tells you as much (too bad that only happens if you romance Solas). I know he is the Dread Wolf, but that along with the final discussion in Trespasser really seems to be a case of him being a walking codex entry thus the truth. As for personality, I said in my post that it forces a Pro-Dalish personality on them since you have to be fully committed to the faith to agree to get that burned into you. Who's to say Lavellan has to be fully committed to the faith? They could have gone through the motions because it had a personal meaning for them beyond it merely "honoring the gods". Perhaps they may believe in the ideals, but not the actual god itself. Since Lavellan can claim they don't believe in any gods to Cassandra, does that not make it possible? I'm well aware we both are unhappy with the roleplay limitations of Lavellan for different reasons but I recall you being unhappy long before the game came out. Again though, the fact you have a very painful procedure done to yourself makes any claim that you don't support or agree with the faith seem contradictory and insincere. We knew the vallaslin was required before the game came out.
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Post by opuspace on Apr 6, 2018 22:00:31 GMT
Who's to say Lavellan has to be fully committed to the faith? They could have gone through the motions because it had a personal meaning for them beyond it merely "honoring the gods". Perhaps they may believe in the ideals, but not the actual god itself. Since Lavellan can claim they don't believe in any gods to Cassandra, does that not make it possible? I'm well aware we both are unhappy with the roleplay limitations of Lavellan for different reasons but I recall you being unhappy long before the game came out. Again though, the fact you have a very painful procedure done to yourself makes any claim that you don't support or agree with the faith seem contradictory and insincere. We knew the vallaslin was required before the game came out. What parts of the faith did you want them to disagree upon? Who's to say some don't see the vallaslin as a reminder that if they submit, they'll be made slaves and the markings are reminders of their days when they were? I think the question I should be steering to is what values do you see associated with their faith? What do you think their faith is about? Instead of what we know they're claiming, what morals are we imposing on their culture?
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Post by Walter Black on Apr 7, 2018 3:26:46 GMT
Why are you convinced it means, "Property of *insert Dalish god*" and not some other meaning? What type of Dalish personality do you see being forced onto the Inquisitor? Because of that scene with Solas where he tells you as much (too bad that only happens if you romance Solas). I know he is the Dread Wolf, but that along with the final discussion in Trespasser really seems to be a case of him being a walking codex entry thus the truth. As for personality, I said in my post that it forces a Pro-Dalish personality on them since you have to be fully committed to the faith to agree to get that burned into you. I find this particular stance curious; you've made your dislike of Solas abundantly clear, yet you are completely willing to accept his views on the Dalish and "true" Elven history as Gospel. Almost as if you want him to be right because his claims fit your preconceived opinions on the Dalish. What if he's lying? What if it is simply his personal interpretation, that of an anarchist atheist who sees any kind of religious devotion or fellowship as "slavery"?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Apr 7, 2018 4:02:48 GMT
Because of that scene with Solas where he tells you as much (too bad that only happens if you romance Solas). I know he is the Dread Wolf, but that along with the final discussion in Trespasser really seems to be a case of him being a walking codex entry thus the truth. As for personality, I said in my post that it forces a Pro-Dalish personality on them since you have to be fully committed to the faith to agree to get that burned into you. I find this particular stance curious; you've made your dislike of Solas abundantly clear, yet you are completely willing to accept his views on the Dalish and "true" Elven history as Gospel. Almost as if you want him to be right because his claims fit your preconceived opinions on the Dalish. What if he's lying? What if it is simply his personal interpretation, that of an anarchist atheist who sees any kind of religious devotion or fellowship as "slavery"? No, as I explained it just seemed to me that Bioware was using him as a mouthpiece for that information. They’ve done that before with many characters throughout their games to the point of some being referred to as walking codices. I would actually love if he was lying since that would be an interesting twist.
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Post by Walter Black on Apr 7, 2018 14:58:09 GMT
Because of that scene with Solas where he tells you as much (too bad that only happens if you romance Solas). I know he is the Dread Wolf, but that along with the final discussion in Trespasser really seems to be a case of him being a walking codex entry thus the truth. As for personality, I said in my post that it forces a Pro-Dalish personality on them since you have to be fully committed to the faith to agree to get that burned into you. Who's to say Lavellan has to be fully committed to the faith? They could have gone through the motions because it had a personal meaning for them beyond it merely "honoring the gods". Perhaps they may believe in the ideals, but not the actual god itself. Since Lavellan can claim they don't believe in any gods to Cassandra, does that not make it possible? I'm well aware we both are unhappy with the roleplay limitations of Lavellan for different reasons but I recall you being unhappy long before the game came out. It occurred to me that we might be placing too much emphasis on the Vallaslin's religious importance, why inadvertently negelting it's other social functions. Unlike in most modern societies where maturity is more or less assumed at 18, the Dalish seemed based on earlier cultures where adulthood is a status that must be earned. It's possible they see one's Vallaslin as a mark that they have proven themselves worthy of adulthood's privileges (autonomy, a voice in counsel, marriage, etc.) as well as the responsibilities (making positive contributions to the clan, defending them from aggression, etc.). I think back to Cammen's Lament where Gheyna does have feelings for him, but is unsure out of sheer pragmatism. Also, the fact Lanaya chides the Warden for getting them together, seeing them as too young. Fittingly, neither Cammen nor Gheyna had their Vallaslin. So it's possible one can live amongst the Dalish without Vallaslin, just with less influence. Of course, this varies from clan to clan, person to person; Pol was well regarded in the Sabrae clan without it*, and Marethari still called Merrill da'len (child)**.
*Being a City Elf immigrant, it's possible that most of Sabrae were simply waiting for Pol to "grow out of" his human inflicted prejudices.
**Marethari likely simply considered it a term of endearment, without realizing the patronizing connotations.
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Post by opuspace on Apr 7, 2018 16:08:39 GMT
Who's to say Lavellan has to be fully committed to the faith? They could have gone through the motions because it had a personal meaning for them beyond it merely "honoring the gods". Perhaps they may believe in the ideals, but not the actual god itself. Since Lavellan can claim they don't believe in any gods to Cassandra, does that not make it possible? I'm well aware we both are unhappy with the roleplay limitations of Lavellan for different reasons but I recall you being unhappy long before the game came out. It occurred to me that we might be placing too much emphasis on the Vallaslin's religious importance, why inadvertently negelting it's other social functions. Unlike in most modern societies where maturity is more or less assumed at 18, the Dalish seemed based on earlier cultures where adulthood is a status that must be earned. It's possible they see one's Vallaslin as a mark that they have proven themselves worthy of adulthood's privileges (autonomy, a voice in counsel, marriage, etc.) as well as the responsibilities (making positive contributions to the clan, defending them from aggression, etc.). I think back to Cammen's Lament where Gheyna does have feelings for him, but is unsure out of sheer pragmatism. Also, the fact Lanaya chides the Warden for getting them together, seeing them as too young. Fittingly, neither Cammen nor Gheyna had their Vallaslin. So it's possible one can live amongst the Dalish without Vallaslin, just with less influence. Of course, this varies from clan to clan, person to person; Pol was well regarded in the Sabrae clan without it*, and Marethari still called Merrill da'len (child)**.
*Being a City Elf immigrant, it's possible that most of Sabrae were simply waiting for Pol to "grow out of" his human inflicted prejudices.
**Marethari likely simply considered it a term of endearment, without realizing the patronizing connotations.
There also has been an option for Lavellan to say that they didn't get the vallaslin for the ancient elves; They got it for themselves. What is the meaning of a symbol to a Dalish? If someone gets the vallaslin for Andruil, did they do it because they approved of her hunting humans or did they do it because they believed in the 3 trees path where mercy must be granted swiftly? Or is it even for a simpler reason in that they just liked how pretty it looks? Rites of passage are common in a lot of cultures. Most descriptions given by Lavellan when talking to Josephine describes a life marked by hardship. Diseases and foul weather, food and clothing that must be largely provided by themselves or earned through trade right down to Morrigan even saying that Orlesian captains hunt them for sport, it's a really crappy existence they have. It's self inflicted, but it's still miserable sounding. Maybe to them, the vallaslin is a mark of whether they're willing to endure this life without complaining. Wycome had me really hoping to see the beginnings of change. I want to see more of that where the Dalish cooperate with city elves and human peasants. It's not likely with the Dread Wolf plot coming up and that Wycome has several opportunities for failure, but I can hope.
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gervaise21
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 7, 2018 18:02:33 GMT
No, as I explained it just seemed to me that Bioware was using him as a mouthpiece for that information. They’ve done that before with many characters throughout their games to the point of some being referred to as walking codices. I would actually love if he was lying since that would be an interesting twist. That Vallaslin are slave markings is what Solas believes, so from that perspective it is true. However, as I pointed out in an earlier post, they could more signify an allegiance to a particular god/social group in order to set you apart from the rest and ensure that the followers of other gods left you alone or they would risk upsetting your "master", just as both nobles and servants use masks in Orlais. You could argue that by wearing the masks of the master of their house, the servants in Orlais are really being marked as "property". When we meet Abelas, he and the sentinels have vallaslin, so was he his enforced slavery or do he choose to be "bound to Mythal" just as the Inquisitor can do? Effectively the Inquisitor is now the "slave" of Mythal but do they regard themselves as such? Judging from Solas' reaction if you Drink from the Well, he would say that you were now a "slave" to her whims. So I think there is room for a different interpretation to be put on the vallaslin that doesn't wholly contradict Solas and yet doesn't endorse his view either.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 7, 2018 18:16:08 GMT
It occurred to me that we might be placing too much emphasis on the Vallaslin's religious importance, why inadvertently negelting it's other social functions. Unlike in most modern societies where maturity is more or less assumed at 18, the Dalish seemed based on earlier cultures where adulthood is a status that must be earned. It's possible they see one's Vallaslin as a mark that they have proven themselves worthy of adulthood's privileges (autonomy, a voice in counsel, marriage, etc.) as well as the responsibilities (making positive contributions to the clan, defending them from aggression, etc.). I think back to Cammen's Lament where Gheyna does have feelings for him, but is unsure out of sheer pragmatism. Also, the fact Lanaya chides the Warden for getting them together, seeing them as too young. Fittingly, neither Cammen nor Gheyna had their Vallaslin. So it's possible one can live amongst the Dalish without Vallaslin, just with less influence. Of course, this varies from clan to clan, person to person; Pol was well regarded in the Sabrae clan without it*, and Marethari still called Merrill da'len (child)**.
*Being a City Elf immigrant, it's possible that most of Sabrae were simply waiting for Pol to "grow out of" his human inflicted prejudices.
**Marethari likely simply considered it a term of endearment, without realizing the patronizing connotations.
I think you are entirely correct here. After all the reason why it is possible for the Dalish Warden not to have vallaslin and it being compulsory for a Dalish Inquisitor is a matter of age. It is conceivably possible that the Warden has not yet been deemed mature enough to be given vallaslin, whereas it does seem rather far fetched that the Keeper of clan Lavellan would entrust such an important spying mission to someone still regarded as a child by the clan. It is made quite clear in the codex in DAO that receiving the vallaslin is not simply a matter of strength of religious devotion; otherwise they could be given at a younger age. For example, I suspect that Cammen would not have received the vallaslin of Andruil as a hunter until he had made that first kill. The Keeper could interpret that as having received "Andruil's blessing" but the truth is he just had to demonstrate sufficient skill.
So along with deciding which god you wish to devote yourself to/be your inspiration in life it may well be necessary to demonstrate you have the required knowledge to be worthy of the markings. Even flinching when the vallaslin are applied is sufficient for the Keeper to deem you "not ready".
For many young Dalish it is the fact that the vallaslin show you are an adult that is important. Was this also a Rite of Passage in Ancient Arlathan or is this aspect of vallaslin a modern addition because the elves of the Dales assumed it was so? If the latter then that meaning is still relevant regardless of what they may have meant in the past.
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May 17, 2024 16:43:43 GMT
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10,819
August 2016
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 7, 2018 18:43:36 GMT
It occurred to me that we might be placing too much emphasis on the Vallaslin's religious importance, why inadvertently negelting it's other social functions. This has been partly brought about by the fact that DAI tended to make it seem as though Dalish culture was about religion and nothing else. Being able to worship their own gods was considered important to their culture and what distinguishes them from City elves but in DAO it struck me that both Dalish and City elf culture was about identifying themselves as different from the humans that surround them and an expression of solidarity with one another. Religion was only part of what made their culture different from other races, just as honouring the Ancestors is only part of what set Orzammar dwarves apart from other races and their surface counterparts. For example, in DA2 Sebastian says how the Chantry does good work in looking after orphans and Merrill counters by saying that the Dalish do this as a matter of course, not because their religion tells them to. She is surprised that human culture requires their religious institution to intervene in this way. Opuspace gives that quote from Sarethia of Highever Alienage which is what we learn about our culture if you take the city elf origin. Now amid all the argument about Dalish culture, we seem to have forgotten that City Elf culture has all but disappeared in DAI. There is no representative of City Elves who sees themselves as different from humans and wishes to remain that way. All we have is Sera, who has utterly rejected her elven identity, although we are never told exactly why this was, and Briala, who is so steeped in the culture of the Game as to be barely distinguishable from the people she opposes. The moral of DAI would seem to be that the choice for a City Elf is either to play by the rules of the ruling elite or embrace acting outside the law. Where is the distinctive culture of DAO and to a lesser extent DA2 where elves just wanted to be treated fairly under the law whilst retaining their elven identity and morals? The Vhenadahl tree was part of that distinctive City Elf identity. It's significance was attached to Ancient Arlathan and a reminder of what they had lost but it was also a symbol of solidarity in the present. Would you say that City Elves are too obsessed with the past if they still honour the tree? As a City Elf would you not be offended that Sera simply dismisses it as "stupid". At least Felassan had the good grace to say it is "just a nice tree" even if he didn't want to regard it as significant to "his" people and he acknowledged that it was a symbol of "your people" to Briala. However, that was in Masked Empire. As I say above, City Elf culture disappeared entirely from DAI.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Apr 7, 2018 19:12:01 GMT
This is one reason why I am hoping Vaea becomes a companion in the next game. Due to her background, she has exposure to both City Elves through growing up in an Alienage as well as the Dalish Elves through her uncle joining them and the clan visiting often. Then she has exposure to the wider world by serving as Aaron's squire (the first elven squire of Fereldan). So her views and interpretations could be very interesting.
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8,023
Sifr
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Aug 25, 2016 20:05:11 GMT
August 2016
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by Sifr on Apr 7, 2018 21:24:06 GMT
That Vallaslin are slave markings is what Solas believes, so from that perspective it is true. That's because they clearly were slave markings. Fen'harel is depicted in murals as only removing the vallaslin of slaves, those among the lower-classes of elven society that were enslaved by the nobles. It's likely then that the nobles may not have worn the vallaslin themselves and went barefaced, as no nobles are ever mentioned as being part of the rebellion or having their vallaslin removed, only those who were formerly slaves. But it's worth noting that the murals found in Trespasser reveal that Solas never actually forced anyone to remove their vallaslin if they did not want to, which ties in with how he leaves that decision up to a romanced Lavellan. "The brand of the Evanuris can be lifted from you, that all may know you oppose their cruelties"Similarly, all the of the murals in the Elven Mountain Ruins depict that the rebels would respect the choices made by the slaves they freed. They could choose to keep their vallaslin and they could choose to join in with the rebellion. Even if they didn't, they'd be welcome and protected. "He leads only those who would help willingly. Let none be beholden but by choice".That's why Felassan, despite following Solas, still opted to retain his vallaslin (most likely Mythal's, according to Patrick Weekes). I think it's suggested that Abelas and the Sentinels wear the vallaslin to symbolise their covenant with Mythal, since they are serving as the priests within her Temple. It's true that they believe the Evanuris propaganda that she's a God, but it does seem like they chose to mark themselves willingly. That's why Abelas is extremely offended when Lavellan refers to the Dalish as being anything like the Sentinels. "'Our' people? The ones we see in the forest, shadows wearing vallaslin? You are not my people"
To the Sentinels, the Dalish having vallaslin is akin to an empty promise that signifies nothing. It's no different than if a non-Maori was to wear the Tā moko because it "looks cool", without any understanding of their significance/meaning to people from that culture. --- It might be possible that Solas wasn't telling the truth and that the murals were rebel propaganda, but to what end? What does it matter if the vallaslin weren't slave markings, given that (almost) everyone who'd know the truth or care has been dead for several thousand years by the Dragon Age? There's really no reason he'd have to lie about it?
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 8, 2018 11:53:16 GMT
I think it's suggested that Abelas and the Sentinels wear the vallaslin to symbolise their covenant with Mythal, since they are serving as the priests within her Temple. It's true that they believe the Evanuris propaganda that she's a God, but it does seem like they chose to mark themselves willingly. Surely, though, this is exactly the meaning that the Dalish attach to the various vallaslin. They symbolise the god, whose particular sphere of influence they wish to follow and emulate. You cannot make this choice as a child but as a mature adult. So it is not true that in all cases they were simply slave markings used to identify them as property. "The brand of the Evanuris can be lifted from you, that all may know you oppose their cruelties" This suggests that to be bare faced signifies you are a rebel against the Evanuris, not simply an escaped slave. As is shown in Orlais, the nobility can be cruel to the lower orders, particularly the Chevaliers, whilst the oppressed are not actually slaves. I'm not saying the Evanuris may not have been cruel tyrants having been corrupted by power but I dispute the meaning given to the vallaslin. In Solas' eyes if you continue to support the Evanuris you are a slave to their whims and blind to their faults, even if you are not actually their property. A good example would be that sinner who "took the form of the gods". He was said to "belong" to Dirthamen but if he had truly been the property of Dirthamen then surely it would have fallen to that god to punish his own slave. Rather it would seem that "belong" equates to "being part of the faction of Dirthamen" and after his action, Dirthamen considered him no longer worthy of his protection, which is why the "sinner" had to appeal to Mythal for clemency, which she refused to give. That's why Abelas is extremely offended when Lavellan refers to the Dalish as being anything like the Sentinels. "'Our' people? The ones we see in the forest, shadows wearing vallaslin? You are not my people"I doubt Abelas even knows what meaning the Dalish attribute to their vallaslin. Modern elves are not his people as they are shadows of what true elves should be in his eyes. He is just saying in a different way what Solas does in Trespasser when he says that to him the modern races, including by implication the elves, are like tranquil. What Abelas declares tells us nothing about whether vallaslin were slave markings or not. "He leads only those who would help willingly. Let none be beholden but by choice".That's why Felassan, despite following Solas, still opted to retain his vallaslin (most likely Mythal's, according to Patrick Weekes This seems belied by the fact the Solas executes him for disloyalty. If he retained his vallaslin (of Mythal) because his allegiance was still to her, then Solas had no right to do this. I thought that Felassan simply had the vallaslin for convenience so he could walk among the Dalish easily and not arouse suspicion as he would if he had no vallaslin. The fact that he wiggles his vallaslin at Imshael as a sort of sign would also suggest this is the case. Judge by how the ultra conservative Keeper Thelhen was willing to listen to Felassan and work with him, yet the bare faced Solas encountered problems when he started offering advice to the Dalish. The fact that when asked that Patrick Weakes said they were "probably Mythal's" suggests to me that he hadn't really thought this one through at the time he wrote Masked Empire.
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8,023
Sifr
3,737
Aug 25, 2016 20:05:11 GMT
August 2016
sifr
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by Sifr on Apr 8, 2018 13:14:50 GMT
Surely, though, this is exactly the meaning that the Dalish attach to the various vallaslin. They symbolise the god, whose particular sphere of influence they wish to follow and emulate. You cannot make this choice as a child but as a mature adult. So it is not true that in all cases they were simply slave markings used to identify them as property. No, because the Dalish are only partially correct about the meaning of the vallaslin being to symbolise each individual Creator. The markings in Ancient times were bestowed by the nobles on people they denoted as property (slaves), therefore they were worn without choice. And while the Sentinels may have chosen to be marked with the vallaslin of Mythal, in doing so, this signified being bound to her service (thus effectively making them her "property"). So yeah, they're effectively a symbol of slavery or servitude in one form or another. It does, because Abelas specifically commenting about the vallaslin in conjunction with his declaration of modern elves being "shadows", suggests that he feels (much like Sera does), that the Dalish are effectively a cargo cult, who adorn themselves with vallaslin without any understanding of it's meaning/significance. That's why he's so disgusted by them, because his people's noble legacy has been reduced to people playing dress up in the woods. And if we accept Solas was telling the truth about them being slave markings, it further explains his incredulity at witnessing Elves who insist that they are "free", yet go around intentionally branding themselves as slaves. Solas executed him because Felassan's disobeyed orders and expressed the belief that modern Elves mattered, as Cole states; "His friend had to die because he thought they were people"That Felassan chose to retain (or adorn himself with) Mythal's vallalsin does not at all denote that his allegiance was still to her. Nor did it prevent Solas from passing judgement on him, because anyone who chose to follow him (barefaced or not) willingly gave up their allegiance to the Evanuris. Because Felassan had betrayed him, it was therefore within his right to act as a Commander punishing a disloyal subordinate. Solas killing Felassan, if the latter still held allegiance to Mythal, however could still make sense. Mythal had secret pass-phrases to bypass the Spirit Guardians within the rebels' mountain hideaway, which might indicate that she may have been working with Solas and aiding his rebellion. Cole also implies in Trespasser that Solas' scar came from when he once wore vallaslin ("He left a scar when he burned her off his face") and putting that with his close-relationship to Mythal, most likely suggests he wore hers. So as a (former) high-ranking lieutenant of Mythal's, Solas could invoke the right to pass judgement on someone wearing her vallaslin.
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Post by Walter Black on Apr 8, 2018 14:20:35 GMT
This suggests that to be bare faced signifies you are a rebel against the Evanuris, not simply an escaped slave. So does this mean turians evolved from prothean slaves ? Unfourtunately, most in-game turians who didn't wear clan markings did turn out to be selfish assholes .
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 8, 2018 17:41:08 GMT
It does, because Abelas specifically commenting about the vallaslin in conjunction with his declaration of modern elves being "shadows", suggests that he feels (much like Sera does), that the Dalish are effectively a cargo cult, who adorn themselves with vallaslin without any understanding of it's meaning/significance. That's why he's so disgusted by them, because his people's noble legacy has been reduced to people playing dress up in the woods. And if we accept Solas was telling the truth about them being slave markings, it further explains his incredulity at witnessing Elves who insist that they are "free", yet go around intentionally branding themselves as slaves. My point here is that unless Abelas can actually read minds or in past time the sentinels captured and interrogated Dalish who explored the Arbor Wilds, there is no way Abelas could know anything about what the Dalish believe. Judging by what happens when we enter the Wilds and also a codex about this, it would seem that the Sentinels did not bother to take captives or find out anything about people who trespassed, they simply killed on sight. I suppose it is possible that when Abelas was sleeping through the centuries he did make contact with the minds of Dalish elves but I don't think this is what you can take from his statement. He is not contemptuous of them for not understanding the meaning behind the vallaslin, he is just contemptuous of them, full stop. Mind you I never really understood Abelas. He and his sentinels have spent thousands of years repelling all comers, including people far closer to him in relationship than a non-elven Inquisitor, yet he just gives up the Well because you danced on a few tiles and gave an acceptable response to his questioning. Who was he meant to be guarding the Well for all that time that he was prepared to surrender it to anyone who was not HIS People?
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Post by opuspace on Apr 8, 2018 22:04:45 GMT
I'm brought to mind of what Solas mentions of the Knight Enchanter class descending from Ancient Arcane Warriors. He's given mostly support despite rumination on their techniques being used for the Chantry but has conceded that so much has been lost, perhaps it might gratify them that something of theirs survived.
Now, when it comes to other things like the vallaslin or other aspects, is there a difference in the way the Dalish try to keep it? Am I missing the point altogether or does it really start to sound like picking and choosing what to keep no matter how altered it is a moving goalpost?
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 9, 2018 14:23:13 GMT
I think if it was simply a case that the Dalish saw some pictures of ancient elves with vallaslin and copied what they saw, they were picking and choosing what to preserve based on ignorance. It is because apparently they accurately matched the vallaslin with the appropriate god and seemed to have put an interpretation on their use that could fit with the way they were seen by the supporters of the Evanuris, that makes me feel it did involve some genuine handed down lore. That is what needs to be remembered.
To Solas they were slave markings because he now opposed the regime but to Abelas and the sentinels they are likely signs of devotion and they would be offended at the very notion it was enforced slavery. They are bound to Mythal by choice. "I shed my name the day I began her service. I shed my new one again, now that she rests. I will only be known by the sorrow that cuts my heart."
There was a time he did not serve Mythal. Is it not likely that (possibly through mutual agreement among the gods) elf children went bare-faced because they were allowed to choose which god they wished to served when they came of age? Apparently they even adopted a new name when they did so and then Abelas changed his name again to his current one when Mythal was killed.
So here we have all the elements of modern Dalish practice, except adopting a new name, when a child reaches maturity. It is likely that in ancient times you had to choose someone to serve and that is why all adult Dalish have vallaslin. Now you could say that amounts to slavery if you have no choice but to serve one god or another but that is not how it was perceived by the majority of society and that is the memory that was handed down to the present day because, for whatever reason, it would seem that practically all modern elves trace to that remnant city up in northern Tevinter, or other communities like them, who like Abelas were part of the system, rather than outlaws. During the time of the Dales it was the priesthood who were responsible for maintaining the lore and then became the leaders of the nomadic survivors, so it is hardly surprising they put emphasis on maintaining these aspects of the lore. I've already also pointed out in an earlier post that saying the nobles marked their servants is no different to the Orlesian nobles having the servants wear the same mask that notifies everyone which house they "belong" to.
What I find a more interesting question is what became of the followers of Fen'Harel? Surely they didn't all perish in the chaos that followed the removal of the Evanuris? We know that at least one survived in Felassan. Were there others like him, in a community akin to the one in the Arbor Wilds, where they went into uthenera to await the time when Fen'Harel would need them again? This would suggest that he had contacted them, may be through the Fade, and made clear his intention to return when he had recovered enough strength to reverse the process. Otherwise, why not simply get on with life?
At what point did the elves start withdrawing from contact with the outside world? According to the timeline is was probably not long after the Veil went up. This would account for why there seems the idea among the Dalish that they need to keep themselves apart from humans to avoid dying prematurely (it is admitted they succumbed to human diseases which was probably the real reason they did so) and remember what it is to be true elves to be worthy of the gods so they will return. There was even the idea that the Quickening came about because the gods deemed them unworthy of their long lives. It always struck me that this was rather in contradiction of the idea that the gods were shut away by Fen'Harel and so incapable of helping them but clearly they did make a connection between the loss of the gods and the Quickening. Why though did they think that they could earn their return or even that the gods were capable of returning without Fen'Harel allowing it? In which case, would it not be better to keep appealing to Fen'Harel?
It seems obvious from reading the account of the war with Tevinter that the community in the Arlathan Forest probably was similar to the Arbor Wilds in that most of the time they slept and only awoke to repel intruders. It is also interesting that not only did Tevinter try and make peaceful overtures when the city was discovered but they were extremely restrained when it came to taking action against them. Only persistent aggression on the part of the elves and a new Archon tipped the balance into all out war. Surely though, the community in Arlathan Forest could not have been the only one? The elven empire clearly covered the entirety of Thedas, yet we are to believe that all that was left was the city in Arlathan Forest, the Temple in the Arbor Wilds and possibly an enclave of Fen'Harel worshipers (somewhere). Is this another piece of history that has been withheld to be produced at a later date?
For example, may be there were always communities of elves in the deep south and it was they who formed the basis of the nation that later became the Dales. This would explain how so much lore was remembered accurately, the elves always seemingly having had an oral tradition. It would also explain how an elven sword, Glandivalis, came into possession of Andraste's mother and how an elven lament about the consequences of Fen'Harel's rebellion ended up in an Alamarri poem. Presumably more will be revealed in the Tevinter archives.
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Post by ellehaym on Apr 9, 2018 15:07:13 GMT
I can see the Vallaslin being a mark to honor a respective Evanuris early in Elvhen history, but as the Evanuris eventually became known as gods, the Vallaslin ended up being a mark of ownership/slavery for the lesser citizens. Priesthood probably are the ones that can freely choose if they want to serve under an Evanuris and thus receive Vallaslin
Personally, I get the impression that a young Solas was a lot like Dorian in that he was ok with slavery and that somebody in his past convinced him how wrong it was
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 9, 2018 15:36:04 GMT
Personally, I get the impression that a young Solas was a lot like Dorian in that he was ok with slavery and that somebody in his past convinced him how wrong it was I think it was the lack of free will that he eventually realised was the problem. Remember how he hates the Qun because whilst technically they are not slaves, they are not allowed to even think that things should be changed. You are told what role you are best suited for and are not allowed to argue with your superiors about it. If you are too rebellious then the thought police step in. To challenge authority is considered detrimental to the running of a fair society. Yet if you say to someone who is happy in the Qun, you are really a slave, they don't understand why you think of it that way. Now I can actually see how that could have been the situation in Ancient Arlathan. In fact isn't that the argument of any totalitarian regime, that people are better off within that society than outside it? Those running the society will keep peddling that line. Those who now see its flaws will rebel against it. That is what I am getting at about the meaning of the vallaslin. How they are perceived to those within the society, who see nothing wrong with it, would regard them differently from Solas and his followers. It is clear that the Dalish have inherited their traditions from those who were in favour of the status quo, so naturally their interpretation of the meaning of the vallaslin would be a positive one, whereas for Solas they are simply slave markings. From that point of view, the Dalish did not get it "wrong" from the viewpoint of the people they are descended from. Bearing in mind it is alleged that some nobles houses in the Dales were actually claiming descent from nobility in Arlathan and it is even easier to see why it is the positive image of that society that made its way down to the present and Solas is remembered as the bad guy for shutting away the gods. Considering elven society apparently descended into chaos following their removal, it is not hard to see why they might view him that way.
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Post by theascendent on Apr 9, 2018 18:55:03 GMT
I am done with Elves. No matter how much we help them, it's never enough and the Elves themselves have shown that as of Trespasser that all the improvements and advancements are too little too late, though I can't really blame them.
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 9, 2018 20:25:43 GMT
So you are saying that the current status quo of treating the majority of elves as second class citizens, so they are not even protected by the laws of the lands in which they reside, is okay? When you are the bottom of the heap in society every improvement is something and worth striving for. Remember the city elves submitted to human rule, adopted their religion and did their best to conform but it still availed them nothing. So the fact that they managed to retain some sort of cultural identity and solidarity should be applauded. As for the Dalish, living the nomadic life they do is not easy, particularly when you have no idea whether the next group of humans you meet will be hostile or not and some nobles hunt you for sport. They do this so they can remain free and govern themselves, something that seems to be lost on Solas.
One of the few sensible things that Sebastian said was in Mark of the Assassin when he admitted that it is because society/the Chantry had failed the elves that they were turning to the Qun. It is probably another reason why Solas is so vehement against the Qun, because the non-Dalish elves frequently see it as the only alternative to their current existence be they in southern Thedas or Tevinter (or on Seheron) if they do not wish or cannot reach the Dalish (which is likely the situation for elves in Tevinter). It is also why he probably finds it so easy to win over city elves to his cause because he doesn't have to admit who he is or what he really intends to do, he simply has to offer them the idea that it will be better than their current lives.
I still want to do all I can for the elves simply to keep them out of the clutches of those who will exploit them, whether the Qun or Fen'Harel. However, I do not expect them to roll over and surrender their individuality in order to achieve this. Whether Dalish or City elves I like the fact they have a different outlook from the humans that surround them, partly because I have very little respect for the ruling elite of those human societies, particularly the empire builders like Orlais and Tevinter.
I am also concerned about Maryden's song and the implications for what may be coming:
Mercy for the elves, who guard their lives with faith Our hands do weigh the down but their kind hearts will forgive the weight. Arlathan fell, so deep unto the ocean floor Currents of hate will so challenge their fate.
Mercy for the elves, who marched with us through fire. Stood with Andraste as she rose against the empire. Can we pay the cost for the allies we have lost in fear Our hands of pain will so threaten their name.
If we climb through our doubt, we can sympathise When the slightest unite, then a giant will rise.
Mercy for the elves, who wander through the night, Dalish father roams, will the Dalish son survive the fight? How can we deny what their number can supply the realm?
When the slightest unite, then a giant will rise.
I just hope that when the slightest unite they are not on the opposite side to me.
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Post by theascendent on Apr 9, 2018 21:21:03 GMT
I never said the status quo was good, but the very state of Thedas itself is hostile to the Elves. They needed the Fade to thrive, without it they live in a world deprived of their magic and immortality. If they want their place on the top restored they'll have to undo what Solas did and tear down the Veil. According to Solas that is the world of the Elves, a place where Thedas and the Fade overlap. Humans have never known anything but a world with the Veil, the results will likely be a classical reversal of fortune. In the end the Elves of Thedas will be faced with a choice, the human world or the elven one. And considering how Solas views them, there just going to end up as more pawns he will use to fulfill his selfish, hypocritical delusions. It's them or us.
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Post by opuspace on Apr 10, 2018 1:09:49 GMT
I never said the status quo was good, but the very state of Thedas itself is hostile to the Elves. They needed the Fade to thrive, without it they live in a world deprived of their magic and immortality. If they want their place on the top restored they'll have to undo what Solas did and tear down the Veil. According to Solas that is the world of the Elves, a place where Thedas and the Fade overlap. Humans have never known anything but a world with the Veil, the results will likely be a classical reversal of fortune. In the end the Elves of Thedas will be faced with a choice that, the human world or the elven one. And considering how Solas views them, there just going to end up as more pawns he will use to fulfill his selfish, hypocritical delusions. It's them or us. I hope not. I don't blame you for thinking that as it does look like it's going to be ugly. Personally, the little successes we've seen usually carry a theme that it happened through cooperation and fair treatment. If they do survive, I'd like one of the outcomes to be one where a more egalitarian society is aimed for. Neither human, elf, nor Qunari nor dwarf dominating over the others. And while I'm wishing, I'd like a rainbow colored halla that sneezes sparkles.
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