lilyonce
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Post by lilyonce on Jul 27, 2018 0:34:25 GMT
Haven't read the books yet, so just curious as to why Rhys "couldn't get out of the country fast enough"? He was poorly treated, lonely, bullied and almost killed by three Altus class mage apprentices to a Magister. Your point was about susceptibility IIRC? The Tevinter mages as a class manifest every vice embodied by demons. I don't think they're less susceptible to possession though their rates of possession may not be high overall. It's more likely to me they constantly skirt it.
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Post by Sokemis on Jul 27, 2018 0:37:28 GMT
This isn't just in response to you, I've just seen people (not in this thread) question if Tevinter ever has abominations in general. I have no doubt that there are abominations in all countries/cultures. Merrill even mentions that sometimes Keepers have fallen to possession, and then the rest of the clan has to hunt them down and kill them. Haven't read the books yet, so just curious as to why Rhys "couldn't get out of the country fast enough"? He was poorly treated, lonely, bullied and almost killed by three Altus class mage apprentices to a Magister. Your point was about susceptibility IIRC? The Tevinter mages as a class manifest every vice embodied by demons. I don't think they're less susceptible to possession though their rates of possession may not be high overall. It's more likely to me they constantly skirt it. It's not so much that I feel they {well-adjusted, free, mages with a healthy respect and appreciation for their gift} are less susceptible to possession, but that they are more able to recognize and resist the demon's temptations. I also think that, in general, Tevinter mages fail the "respect of their magic {and it's power}". I realize it's not a perfect analogy, but going back to my original analogy about gun safety: Magisters have a tendency to gleefully fire off their Gatling gun without bothering to check/not caring who may be standing behind the target.
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Post by Catilina on Jul 27, 2018 0:56:49 GMT
Haven't read the books yet, so just curious as to why Rhys "couldn't get out of the country fast enough"? He was poorly treated, lonely, bullied and almost killed by three Altus class mage apprentices to a Magister. Your point was about susceptibility IIRC? The Tevinter mages as a class manifest every vice embodied by demons. I don't think they're less susceptible to possession though their rates of possession may not be high overall. It's more likely to me they constantly skirt it. No abominations involved in Rhys case. This is the point.
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Post by Catilina on Jul 27, 2018 0:58:26 GMT
This isn't just in response to you, I've just seen people (not in this thread) question if Tevinter ever has abominations in general. I have no doubt that there are abominations in all countries/cultures. Merrill even mentions that sometimes Keepers have fallen to possession, and then the rest of the clan has to hunt them down and kill them. editing to add another reply.... And this is why would incredibly stupid to throw the mage children into the wild... more mage – more safety in this case. The elven clans don't have Templars/Seekers... but the mages have many anti-magical abilities, and they more easily can destroy an abomination with mages, than without.
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Post by Sokemis on Jul 27, 2018 1:01:49 GMT
I have no doubt that there are abominations in all countries/cultures. Merrill even mentions that sometimes Keepers have fallen to possession, and then the rest of the clan has to hunt them down and kill them. editing to add another reply.... And this is why would incredibly stupid to throw the mage children into the wild... more mage – more safety in this case. The elven clans don't have Templars/Seekers... but the mages have many anti-magical abilities, and they more easily can destroy an abomination with mages, than without. Eh, I have my own personal theories on how much universal truth there is to the "three mages per clan", and why those clan that do have to abandon/exile "excess" mages do so...
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Post by Catilina on Jul 27, 2018 1:11:35 GMT
And this is why would incredibly stupid to throw the mage children into the wild... more mage – more safety in this case. The elven clans don't have Templars/Seekers... but the mages have many anti-magical abilities, and they more easily can destroy an abomination with mages, than without. Eh, I have my own personal theories on how much universal truth there is to the "three mages per clan", and why those clan that do have to abandon/exile "excess" mages do so... A clan that has "enough" mage, sent one to another clan, that doesn't have. Probably the way isn't always easy – sometimes the escort hunters can die, Templars, wild beasts etc. Perhaps this happened with Minaeve and many others. This is a shock – and she was a little girl, she can remember the Templars as her saviours, even if they were the attackers, but perhaps, they really just found her. But this is only my theory. But I suppose it fits the story and the logic better.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jul 27, 2018 1:39:28 GMT
The one where he spent 7 years working with the mage underground to help mages escape the circle, living in Darktown and running a free clinic, and writing and distributing manifestos arguing in favour of mage freedom, that include quotes from the Chant of Light to support his views. Did you actually play DA2, or...?
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lilyonce
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Post by lilyonce on Jul 27, 2018 1:40:28 GMT
they are more able to recognize and resist the demon's temptations. If small mage towns were chartered close to and paid for by circles would that satisfy your requirement for freedom? Do you agree with the Chantry's rule of no magic outside the Circle unless sanctioned?
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jul 27, 2018 1:42:47 GMT
Haven't read the books yet, so just curious as to why Rhys "couldn't get out of the country fast enough"? He was poorly treated, lonely, bullied and almost killed by three Altus class mage apprentices to a Magister. Your point was about susceptibility IIRC? The Tevinter mages as a class manifest every vice embodied by demons. I don't think they're less susceptible to possession though their rates of possession may not be high overall. It's more likely to me they constantly skirt it. Why does it keep coming back to "vices" with you? Do you actually believe, in real life, that pride, desire, laziness, jealousy and anger are inherently evil qualities? Is it evil to feel fear or despair? Those are also demons.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jul 27, 2018 1:49:06 GMT
So it's fine, as long as the only victims are other mages? No, it’s not fine. But at least other mages can defend themselves against abominations better than peasants with pitchforks. You understand that Thedas is inherently broken, yes? The system was rigged to make SOMEONE suffer. Mages are always at risk of demonic possession, but at least the Circles contained that risk. Yes, I do understand that, and honestly, if it weren't for same-sex romance options, I wouldn't play the games at all, because I don't find Thedas to be worth saving. It's an awful place, and also not particularly interesting as fantasy settings go. But unlike the characters in the game, I have the benefit of not being a complete and utter moron. The current system is a total tear-down, but it's not particularly difficult to conceive of systems that would work much better for everyone.
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Post by lilyonce on Jul 27, 2018 2:00:09 GMT
Do you actually believe, in real life, that pride, desire, laziness, jealousy and anger wrath are inherently evil qualities vices? Yes. Yes.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jul 27, 2018 2:14:44 GMT
Do you actually believe, in real life, that pride, desire, laziness, jealousy and anger wrath are inherently evil qualities vices? Yes. Yes. A "vice" is also a quality. Quality just means "attribute" or "characteristic" in this context. You don't need to add moral value to every single word, christ. To be perfectly clear: are you saying that there is no circumstance where it might be warranted or even acceptable to feel pride, desire or rage?
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Post by Catilina on Jul 27, 2018 2:15:31 GMT
Do you actually believe, in real life, that pride, desire, laziness, jealousy and anger wrath are inherently evil qualities vices? Yes. Yes. So: do you think, playing with people's fear and creating/keeping fear, paranoia is evil? Right? Because this is what the Chantry and Vivienne do.
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Post by Sokemis on Jul 27, 2018 2:15:54 GMT
Eh, I have my own personal theories on how much universal truth there is to the "three mages per clan", and why those clan that do have to abandon/exile "excess" mages do so... A clan that has "enough" mage, sent one to another clan, that doesn't have. Probably the way isn't always easy – sometimes the escort hunters can die, Templars, wild beasts etc. Perhaps this happened with Minaeve and many others. This is a shock – and she was a little girl, she can remember the Templars as her saviours, even if they were the attackers, but perhaps, they really just found her. But this is only my theory. But I suppose it fits the story and the logic better. I personally feel that the "3 mage rule" is a lie/misconception that the Dalish are happy to let non-Dalish (especially Chantry affiliated folks) continue to think. In some places, having it be known that they have multiple mages could make the clan as a whole more of a target to persecution. And if the clan is attacked by Templars, some of the mages might have a chance to escape with the others if the Templars think "yeah some of the clan got away, but we got all the mages," *pointing to three dead/captured mages* "so let's just deal with these ones instead of pursuing the non-mages." (How exactly do Templars "sense" mages anyway? I've never been quite clear on that.) Being a Keeper is more than just simply being a mage. They are trained to be the leader of the Clan, trained in much deeper Elven culture/history/religion than other members of the clan (with the exception of maybe the hahren). Being a nomadic people, I would suspect they are taught the geography and "attitudes" of the area where they travel, so they know where to guide their people to and where to stay away from. I think those that are chosen by the Keeper as apprentices display not only strong magical qualities, but also strong leadership qualities. But those mages that don't become the Keeper's First or Second still could have a place within the clan. The most obvious example is as a healer. I've never sided with the werewolves in Origins myself, but I've heard from others that have that the Halla Keeper in that clan was a mage. Just as magic runs stronger in some family lines (such as the Amells), so to does it probably run stronger in some clans and hardly at all in other clans. Those with a lot of mage children would send one or two to join another clan that doesn't have any that generation. Some clans might have to travel in areas where they would be in closer contact with more zealous Templars, which might force them to have less mages within the clan in order to stay under the radar. (Again my question: how do Templar's sense mages?) This might have been the case with Minaeve's clan, or it might have been as you said - the trauma of the event caused her to misremember what actually happened. If small mage towns were chartered close to and paid for by circles would that satisfy your requirement for freedom? No, because they still wouldn't be truly free. They would still be isolated and under the Chantry's thumb, just in a bigger Circle. Even if they did start out as better than the current Circle system, in time they would become at best no better than the mage version of an Alienage or leper colony. Would a mage's family be allowed to move to the town as well. What about a mage (child) that doesn't want to leave their family, but whose family can't afford to completely uproot like that? Do you agree with the Chantry's rule of no magic outside the Circle unless sanctioned? No, I don't think it's as strictly needed as the Chantry claims.
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Post by Catilina on Jul 27, 2018 2:26:25 GMT
A clan that has "enough" mage, sent one to another clan, that doesn't have. Probably the way isn't always easy – sometimes the escort hunters can die, Templars, wild beasts etc. Perhaps this happened with Minaeve and many others. This is a shock – and she was a little girl, she can remember the Templars as her saviours, even if they were the attackers, but perhaps, they really just found her. But this is only my theory. But I suppose it fits the story and the logic better. I personally feel that the "3 mage rule" is a lie/misconception that the Dalish are happy to let non-Dalish (especially Chantry affiliated folks) continue to think. In some places, having it be known that they have multiple mages could make the clan as a whole more of a target to persecution. And if the clan is attacked by Templars, some of the mages might have a chance to escape with the others if the Templars think "yeah some of the clan got away, but we got all the mages," *pointing to three dead/captured mages* "so let's just deal with these ones instead of pursuing the non-mages." (How exactly do Templars "sense" mages anyway? I've never been quite clear on that.) Being a Keeper is more than just simply being a mage. They are trained to be the leader of the Clan, trained in much deeper Elven culture/history/religion than other members of the clan (with the exception of maybe the hahren). Being a nomadic people, I would suspect they are taught the geography and "attitudes" of the area where they travel, so they know where to guide their people to and where to stay away from. I think those that are chosen by the Keeper as apprentices display not only strong magical qualities, but also strong leadership qualities. But those mages that don't become the Keeper's First or Second still could have a place within the clan. The most obvious example is as a healer. I've never sided with the werewolves in Origins myself, but I've heard from others that have that the Halla Keeper in that clan was a mage. Just as magic runs stronger in some family lines (such as the Amells), so to does it probably run stronger in some clans and hardly at all in other clans. Those with a lot of mage children would send one or two to join another clan that doesn't have any that generation. Some clans might have to travel in areas where they would be in closer contact with more zealous Templars, which might force them to have less mages within the clan in order to stay under the radar. (Again my question: how do Templar's sense mages?) This might have been the case with Minaeve's clan, or it might have been as you said - the trauma of the event caused her to misremember what actually happened. If small mage towns were chartered close to and paid for by circles would that satisfy your requirement for freedom? No, because they still wouldn't be truly free. They would still be isolated and under the Chantry's thumb, just in a bigger Circle. Even if they did start out as better than the current Circle system, in time they would become at best no better than the mage version of an Alienage or leper colony. Would a mage's family be allowed to move to the town as well. What about a mage (child) that doesn't want to leave their family, but whose family can't afford to completely uproot like that? Do you agree with the Chantry's rule of no magic outside the Circle unless sanctioned? No, I don't think it's as strictly needed as the Chantry claims. The Templars don't sense the mages, especially not from distant. Even if they sense the mages, one mage still mage... So: no matter how many mages there in a clan. But think about it: if they just leave a mage child with his/her fear and despair – it can cause a catastrophe. But I'm sure, the Templars would "sense" if some forest/village burned by an elf child... I don't think, to throw out an elven mage child would be the most logical thing. And don't forget: for a zealous Templar no matter how much mage in the clan: one, two ot three... just remember Kirkwall Templars, who want Feynriel and tortures a hunter, and want to attack the Sabre clan.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jul 27, 2018 2:28:26 GMT
Why is the Chantry qualified to be sanctioning anything? What makes them more knowledgeable about magic than the next random group of peasants with a long-ass poem about their imaginary friend?
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lilyonce
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Post by lilyonce on Jul 27, 2018 2:28:40 GMT
A "vice" is also a quality. Quality just means "attribute" or "characteristic" in this context. A vice is a practice or habit and not a quality. No. And desire is a synonym for lust essentially in the setting- just to be clear about my opinion. Would a mage's family be allowed to move to the town as well. Yes. Non-mages would be permitted to settle there and it would be open to trade. Why would it become like an an alienage? The Circles are rather wealthy IIRC. The Circle could pay for their relocation. And when mages complete the Harrowing and acquire dispensation to leave the circle they're permitted freedom of movement outside mage towns. Why not? EDIT.
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Post by thats1evildude on Jul 27, 2018 2:30:24 GMT
honestly, if it weren't for same-sex romance optI wouldn't play the games at all God, wouldn’t that be a shame.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jul 27, 2018 2:31:23 GMT
A "vice" is also a quality. Quality just means "attribute" or "characteristic" in this context. A vice is a practice or habit and not a quality. No. And desire is a synonym for lust in the setting- just to be clear about my opinion. Yeah, I got that. Why is lust inherently evil?
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jul 27, 2018 2:32:39 GMT
honestly, if it weren't for same-sex romance optI wouldn't play the games at all God, wouldn’t that be a shame. You got a problem?
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Post by thats1evildude on Jul 27, 2018 2:35:55 GMT
No, why would I want to lose a forum member who’s constantly stating he wouldn’t be here if not for the gay romances? Nothing makes a fan more happy than being repeatedly told the thing he likes is unimaginative and depressing.
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Post by lilyonce on Jul 27, 2018 2:41:02 GMT
Why is lust inherently evil? It distorts perfectly healthy desires and ambitions.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jul 27, 2018 2:45:50 GMT
Why is lust inherently evil? It distorts perfectly healthy desires and ambitions. At what point does a desire become unhealthy? For that matter, when does simply feeling fear or sadness transition into "wallowing"? And why is it "evil" to be unhealthy? I feel like the chronically depressed or anxious have enough problems without you telling them that chemical imbalances in their brains that they have no direct control over are also morally wrong to suffer from.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Jul 27, 2018 2:57:25 GMT
No, it’s not fine. But at least other mages can defend themselves against abominations better than peasants with pitchforks. You understand that Thedas is inherently broken, yes? The system was rigged to make SOMEONE suffer. Mages are always at risk of demonic possession, but at least the Circles contained that risk. Yes, I do understand that, and honestly, if it weren't for same-sex romance options, I wouldn't play the games at all, because I don't find Thedas to be worth saving. It's an awful place, and also not particularly interesting as fantasy settings go. But unlike the characters in the game, I have the benefit of not being a complete and utter moron. The current system is a total tear-down, but it's not particularly difficult to conceive of systems that would work much better for everyone. I don't think you and Evildude are talking about the same thing. The last sentence of your post makes it pretty clear you're talking about Thedas's social system being something in need of reform, whereas Evildude's actual point was that the magic system is inherently rigged to make the setting an inherently messed up place, and that as horrible as the Circle is, the magic system was specifically and deliberately written to be something it's a legitimate answer to. Mind you I'm not saying Thedas's social structure couldn't use some shaking up. I'm just saying that that wouldn't solve the problem that the vulnerability of mages to demonic possession represents in this setting.
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Post by lilyonce on Jul 27, 2018 3:00:56 GMT
At what point does a desire become unhealthy? When it impairs your functioning and degrades quality of life. That's quite standard in psychological literature from what I understand. When you indulge it beyond anything a reasonable person would consider healthy or necessary. You waste the life you've been given to live which hurts you and others. Ah, so this is what you think it's about. Clinically depressed people have a unique set of challenges. This has nothing to do with them or their condition.
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