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Post by Iddy on Jul 26, 2018 1:18:25 GMT
The only mages locked up there would be those who've commited crimes.
Really, it isn't complicated.
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Post by copper on Jul 26, 2018 1:31:26 GMT
Mages still need a way to learn how to control their powers though. Plus the circles can protect mages from non mages as much as the other way around. Remember how Wynne's powers manifested? She set a boy on fire. I seriously doubt she wouldn't have been killed by some angry and scared villagers if the circle wasn't an alternative.
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Post by Catilina on Jul 26, 2018 1:58:16 GMT
Mages still need a way to learn how to control their powers though. Plus the circles can protect mages from non mages as much as the other way around. Remember how Wynne's powers manifested? She set a boy on fire. I seriously doubt she wouldn't have been killed by some angry and scared villagers if the circle wasn't an alternative. The mages need to learn to control their magic, and need a place where the scholars able to study the nature of the magic. Education and research centres are necessary (nor necessarily in the same place!). Prisons as well – for punishing the criminals. The prison-Circles never existed for the sake of mages. The law should protect everyone from the lynching crowd. Imprison the mobs, not their victims! It's like: the slavery protects the poor people from the starvation... (There are people who said such a thing... Dorian... and Varania: "freedom was no boon")
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Post by copper on Jul 26, 2018 2:08:19 GMT
Mages still need a way to learn how to control their powers though. Plus the circles can protect mages from non mages as much as the other way around. Remember how Wynne's powers manifested? She set a boy on fire. I seriously doubt she wouldn't have been killed by some angry and scared villagers if the circle wasn't an alternative. The mages need to learn to control their magic, and need a place where the scholars able to study the nature of the magic. Education and research centres are necessary (nor necessarily in the same place!). Prisons as well – for punishing the criminals. The prison-Circles never existed for the sake of mages. The law should protect everyone from the lynching crowd. Imprison the mobs, not their victims! It's like: the slavery protects the poor people from the starvation... (There are people who said such a thing... Dorian... and Varania: "freedom was no boon") I agree that the circle system as it is currently has serious flaws, but with some reform it could function as a school and sanctuary for mages. To get rid of it completely seems like throwing out the baby with the bath water.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jul 26, 2018 2:23:25 GMT
There is already a prison for mages who actually commmit crimes. The Circle serves a vital purpose, it's just governed by religious fundamentalist assholes.
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Post by Catilina on Jul 26, 2018 2:33:17 GMT
The mages need to learn to control their magic, and need a place where the scholars able to study the nature of the magic. Education and research centres are necessary (nor necessarily in the same place!). Prisons as well – for punishing the criminals. The prison-Circles never existed for the sake of mages. The law should protect everyone from the lynching crowd. Imprison the mobs, not their victims! It's like: the slavery protects the poor people from the starvation... (There are people who said such a thing... Dorian... and Varania: "freedom was no boon") I agree that the circle system as it is currently has serious flaws, but with some reform it could function as a school and sanctuary for mages. To get rid of it completely seems like throwing out the baby with the bath water. They don't need cuddling. I'm not against a haven for anyone who wants it – but not as mandatory, and not without letting them go. Some of them fear from the freedom, but how they learn to live, the responsibility, if they go back to the safe place? And why they deserve that safe place, and the non-mages not? Why they deserve more than the others. They get a good education, it not enough? Nobody throws out the baby – but the baby must leave the bathtub, can not stay there forever...
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Post by opuspace on Jul 26, 2018 3:49:28 GMT
The mages need to learn to control their magic, and need a place where the scholars able to study the nature of the magic. Education and research centres are necessary (nor necessarily in the same place!). Prisons as well – for punishing the criminals. The prison-Circles never existed for the sake of mages. The law should protect everyone from the lynching crowd. Imprison the mobs, not their victims! It's like: the slavery protects the poor people from the starvation... (There are people who said such a thing... Dorian... and Varania: "freedom was no boon") I agree that the circle system as it is currently has serious flaws, but with some reform it could function as a school and sanctuary for mages. To get rid of it completely seems like throwing out the baby with the bath water. It wouldn't be a bad idea...except for the years of abuse and exploitation that follows its reputation. It's original purpose was corrupted along the years so the association carries a lot of anxiety for anyone who has a stake in the institution. Not surprising then that they gave the Colleges a different name. It's sort of like the symbol for the swastika. It used to be a benign symbol, but now it has been tainted by so much that suspicion will hover over anyone who wears it publicly. From what it looks like to me, the Colleges are basically the reformed version of the Circles.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by copper on Jul 26, 2018 6:01:43 GMT
I agree that the circle system as it is currently has serious flaws, but with some reform it could function as a school and sanctuary for mages. To get rid of it completely seems like throwing out the baby with the bath water. It wouldn't be a bad idea...except for the years of abuse and exploitation that follows its reputation. It's original purpose was corrupted along the years so the association carries a lot of anxiety for anyone who has a stake in the institution. Not surprising then that they gave the Colleges a different name. It's sort of like the symbol for the swastika. It used to be a benign symbol, but now it has been tainted by so much that suspicion will hover over anyone who wears it publicly. From what it looks like to me, the Colleges are basically the reformed version of the Circles. I can't figure out how to quote multiple people at once, but Catilina I saw your response too and hopefully I can address parts of it below. Okay so change the name. It wouldn't prevent it from changing to function a bit better. I don't know enough about the College of Enchanters to be honest. If they're basically a circle with the mages policing themselves, than I can see that working as an option for mages who want to be separate from templars and the Chantry. I'm sketchy on the details, but don't the mages in Inquisition shoot themselves in the foot, so to speak? Taking over Redcliffe and joining the Venatori isn't going to convince anyone that mages are capable of handling freedom responsibly.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jul 26, 2018 6:09:50 GMT
It wouldn't be a bad idea...except for the years of abuse and exploitation that follows its reputation. It's original purpose was corrupted along the years so the association carries a lot of anxiety for anyone who has a stake in the institution. Not surprising then that they gave the Colleges a different name. It's sort of like the symbol for the swastika. It used to be a benign symbol, but now it has been tainted by so much that suspicion will hover over anyone who wears it publicly. From what it looks like to me, the Colleges are basically the reformed version of the Circles. I can't figure out how to quote multiple people at once, but Catilina I saw your response too and hopefully I can address parts of it below. Okay so change the name. It wouldn't prevent it from changing to function a bit better. I don't know enough about the College of Enchanters to be honest. If they're basically a circle with the mages policing themselves, than I can see that working as an option for mages who want to be separate from templars and the Chantry. I'm sketchy on the details, but don't the mages in Inquisition shoot themselves in the foot, so to speak? Taking over Redcliffe and joining the Venatori isn't going to convince anyone that mages are capable of handling freedom responsibly. The Templars and Seekers fell really easily under the influence of an Envy demon, so by the same token, have they not proven that they are also irresponsible?
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 26, 2018 7:28:52 GMT
The Circles were never intended to be places of punishment. They started off in Tevinter as places of education. Then when the southern Chantry decided to establish Circles it was so that mages who wished to experiment with the magical powers beyond simple healing spells and other benign uses, had somewhere they could do this safely and under supervision in case anything went wrong. Originally mages were allowed to live in the community provided they restricted the use of their magic. They could also be court advisers provided they did not exert too much influence. Besides providing supervision inside the Circles, the Templar order could also police things in the community, tracking down rogue mages who abused their power but also ensuring peaceful mages were not harmed.
It has not been explicitly stated anywhere but it would seem the situation changed in the south when the Tevinter Chantry broke away and it became apparent how much power the mages had continued to wield behind the scenes. In order to prevent the same thing happening in the south, they must have decided that all mages should be kept in the Circles even after their training and even though they did not wish to do more than healing magic. Of course you could still leave with the approval of the First Enchanter but of course anyone too outspoken or likely to cause trouble by challenging the system would never receive permission. Only those sufficiently obsequious to those in power.
It is clear that universal locking up of all mages in Circles did not become the norm until quite late on if you study the history of Ferelden. Aldanon and his apprentices were able to operate quite freely and he was adviser to successive Arls. Clearly the practices of the Orlesian Chantry were beginning to be adopted in Ferelden as there was a closed Circle there but it was not the norm across the country. Then Calenhad threw in his lot with the Circle, not simply to get their aid but probably also to get Chantry support for his aspirations to monarchy, and from then on the closed Circle was the only system allowed, while free mages, like Aldanon were hunted down.
The fact is there is nothing wrong with having Circles as places of education and research but mages should be free to leave once they have completed their initial education. This is how they are used in Tevinter. Young mages do need guidance and if you are the only mage in the village you are not going to get much instruction locally. They should not be places of punishment. In Ferelden that was the purpose of Aeonar, a place of incarceration for dangerous mages, although even that was misused with a non-mage like Lily being sent there for punishment. I can't think of a worse system than one where a school is also a prison.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2018 9:40:52 GMT
It wouldn't be a bad idea...except for the years of abuse and exploitation that follows its reputation. It's original purpose was corrupted along the years so the association carries a lot of anxiety for anyone who has a stake in the institution. Not surprising then that they gave the Colleges a different name. It's sort of like the symbol for the swastika. It used to be a benign symbol, but now it has been tainted by so much that suspicion will hover over anyone who wears it publicly. From what it looks like to me, the Colleges are basically the reformed version of the Circles. I can't figure out how to quote multiple people at once, but Catilina I saw your response too and hopefully I can address parts of it below. Next to the QUOTE button there's a little gear with an arrow. Go to the first comment and click it, then select post. Then go quote the second post as per usual and both will show up.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2018 9:42:01 GMT
I'm just gonna leave this here so you don't start running round in the same old circles again...
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by copper on Jul 26, 2018 10:55:20 GMT
I can't figure out how to quote multiple people at once, but Catilina I saw your response too and hopefully I can address parts of it below. Okay so change the name. It wouldn't prevent it from changing to function a bit better. I don't know enough about the College of Enchanters to be honest. If they're basically a circle with the mages policing themselves, than I can see that working as an option for mages who want to be separate from templars and the Chantry. I'm sketchy on the details, but don't the mages in Inquisition shoot themselves in the foot, so to speak? Taking over Redcliffe and joining the Venatori isn't going to convince anyone that mages are capable of handling freedom responsibly. The Templars and Seekers fell really easily under the influence of an Envy demon, so by the same token, have they not proven that they are also irresponsible? Yeah I would say so. Though I'm the eyes of the non magical public, that might not matter. In their eyes the mages doing all the Redcliffe crap just enforces the propaganda the Southern Chantry has been spreading for however long the circles have been in place. Maybe people like the templars, maybe they don't. Most people probably still think they're a safer bet than mages wandering freely.
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Post by Iddy on Jul 26, 2018 11:29:11 GMT
Mages still need a way to learn how to control their powers though. Plus the circles can protect mages from non mages as much as the other way around. Remember how Wynne's powers manifested? She set a boy on fire. I seriously doubt she wouldn't have been killed by some angry and scared villagers if the circle wasn't an alternative. That's what the College of Enchanters is for. It needs to be brought back. As for angry mobs, they should be legally punished just like anyone who assaults another for no reason. That wouldn't make attacks stop entirely but it would reduce the number at least.
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Post by Iddy on Jul 26, 2018 11:33:20 GMT
The Circles were never intended to be places of punishment. They started off in Tevinter as places of education. Then when the southern Chantry decided to establish Circles it was so that mages who wished to experiment with the magical powers beyond simple healing spells and other benign uses, had somewhere they could do this safely and under supervision in case anything went wrong. Originally mages were allowed to live in the community provided they restricted the use of their magic. They could also be court advisers provided they did not exert too much influence. Besides providing supervision inside the Circles, the Templar order could also police things in the community, tracking down rogue mages who abused their power but also ensuring peaceful mages were not harmed. It has not been explicitly stated anywhere but it would seem the situation changed in the south when the Tevinter Chantry broke away and it became apparent how much power the mages had continued to wield behind the scenes. In order to prevent the same thing happening in the south, they must have decided that all mages should be kept in the Circles even after their training and even though they did not wish to do more than healing magic. Of course you could still leave with the approval of the First Enchanter but of course anyone too outspoken or likely to cause trouble by challenging the system would never receive permission. Only those sufficiently obsequious to those in power. It is clear that universal locking up of all mages in Circles did not become the norm until quite late on if you study the history of Ferelden. Aldanon and his apprentices were able to operate quite freely and he was adviser to successive Arls. Clearly the practices of the Orlesian Chantry were beginning to be adopted in Ferelden as there was a closed Circle there but it was not the norm across the country. Then Calenhad threw in his lot with the Circle, not simply to get their aid but probably also to get Chantry support for his aspirations to monarchy, and from then on the closed Circle was the only system allowed, while free mages, like Aldanon were hunted down. The fact is there is nothing wrong with having Circles as places of education and research but mages should be free to leave once they have completed their initial education. This is how they are used in Tevinter. Young mages do need guidance and if you are the only mage in the village you are not going to get much instruction locally. They should not be places of punishment. In Ferelden that was the purpose of Aeonar, a place of incarceration for dangerous mages, although even that was misused with a non-mage like Lily being sent there for punishment. I can't think of a worse system than one where a school is also a prison. If mages are to become part of society, they must be held responsible for their actions just like everyone else. And unfortunately, regular prisons can't contain a mage criminal. They will break out easily.
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Post by Catilina on Jul 26, 2018 11:40:13 GMT
The Circles were never intended to be places of punishment. They started off in Tevinter as places of education. Then when the southern Chantry decided to establish Circles it was so that mages who wished to experiment with the magical powers beyond simple healing spells and other benign uses, had somewhere they could do this safely and under supervision in case anything went wrong. Originally mages were allowed to live in the community provided they restricted the use of their magic. They could also be court advisers provided they did not exert too much influence. Besides providing supervision inside the Circles, the Templar order could also police things in the community, tracking down rogue mages who abused their power but also ensuring peaceful mages were not harmed.
It has not been explicitly stated anywhere but it would seem the situation changed in the south when the Tevinter Chantry broke away and it became apparent how much power the mages had continued to wield behind the scenes. In order to prevent the same thing happening in the south, they must have decided that all mages should be kept in the Circles even after their training and even though they did not wish to do more than healing magic. Of course you could still leave with the approval of the First Enchanter but of course anyone too outspoken or likely to cause trouble by challenging the system would never receive permission. Only those sufficiently obsequious to those in power.
It is clear that universal locking up of all mages in Circles did not become the norm until quite late on if you study the history of Ferelden. Aldanon and his apprentices were able to operate quite freely and he was adviser to successive Arls. Clearly the practices of the Orlesian Chantry were beginning to be adopted in Ferelden as there was a closed Circle there but it was not the norm across the country. Then Calenhad threw in his lot with the Circle, not simply to get their aid but probably also to get Chantry support for his aspirations to monarchy, and from then on the closed Circle was the only system allowed, while free mages, like Aldanon were hunted down.
The fact is there is nothing wrong with having Circles as places of education and research but mages should be free to leave once they have completed their initial education. This is how they are used in Tevinter. Young mages do need guidance and if you are the only mage in the village you are not going to get much instruction locally. They should not be places of punishment. In Ferelden that was the purpose of Aeonar, a place of incarceration for dangerous mages, although even that was misused with a non-mage like Lily being sent there for punishment. I can't think of a worse system than one where a school is also a prison. If mages are to become part of society, they must be held responsible for their actions just like everyone else. And unfortunately, regular prisons can't contain a mage criminal. They will break out easily.This is the reason, why the Aeonar exists...
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Post by opuspace on Jul 26, 2018 14:14:18 GMT
It wouldn't be a bad idea...except for the years of abuse and exploitation that follows its reputation. It's original purpose was corrupted along the years so the association carries a lot of anxiety for anyone who has a stake in the institution. Not surprising then that they gave the Colleges a different name. It's sort of like the symbol for the swastika. It used to be a benign symbol, but now it has been tainted by so much that suspicion will hover over anyone who wears it publicly. From what it looks like to me, the Colleges are basically the reformed version of the Circles. I can't figure out how to quote multiple people at once, but Catilina I saw your response too and hopefully I can address parts of it below. Okay so change the name. It wouldn't prevent it from changing to function a bit better. I don't know enough about the College of Enchanters to be honest. If they're basically a circle with the mages policing themselves, than I can see that working as an option for mages who want to be separate from templars and the Chantry. I'm sketchy on the details, but don't the mages in Inquisition shoot themselves in the foot, so to speak? Taking over Redcliffe and joining the Venatori isn't going to convince anyone that mages are capable of handling freedom responsibly. Pretty much what the Colleges are; Reformed Circles with a different name. As for Redcliffe, the events leading up to it was rife with chaos and no one knowing what to do. It was a sort of lemmings panic that their sheltered existence contributed to instead of helping. They couldn't leave because rogue mages and Templars were warring, they already were facing hostility for being associated with them and they had Tevinter messing with them through time magic. It's less worse than a Seeker intentionally having an Envy demon infiltrate Templar ranks and deliberately refusing to bring order and instead leading the rest into war because they're reacting to the events instead of instigating it.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 26, 2018 15:25:57 GMT
And unfortunately, regular prisons can't contain a mage criminal. They will break out easily. Aeonar was not a regular prison (even though they sent Lily there). It was specifically intended for maximum security mage prisoners, particularly those who might possibly be possessed but showed no outward signs of it (probably the reason they did send Lily there in view the fact she had been associating with a blood mage). It is not clear where it was located but it was not anywhere near Kinloch Hold. That is my point. There is nothing wrong with Circles as places of education and research but mages should be free to come and go once they have completed an initial bit of compulsory education to ensure they know the basics to keep themselves safe. However, if you need somewhere to incarcerate the dangerous rogue mages, this should be somewhere completely different from the rest. It is like the difference between a college/school and a maximum security prison. We have compulsory state education and children who bunk off may be tracked down by the police and made to attend but when they are old enough, then it is up to them if they wish to take their education to a higher level. Why should it be any different with mages? The majority are probably only capable of very low level magic anyway and would be quite happy just providing healing services to the community and the odd bit of defence against ferocious critters.
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Post by Iddy on Jul 26, 2018 16:18:36 GMT
And unfortunately, regular prisons can't contain a mage criminal. They will break out easily. Aeonar was not a regular prison (even though they sent Lily there). It was specifically intended for maximum security mage prisoners, particularly those who might possibly be possessed but showed no outward signs of it (probably the reason they did send Lily there in view the fact she had been associating with a blood mage). It is not clear where it was located but it was not anywhere near Kinloch Hold. That is my point. There is nothing wrong with Circles as places of education and research but mages should be free to come and go once they have completed an initial bit of compulsory education to ensure they know the basics to keep themselves safe. However, if you need somewhere to incarcerate the dangerous rogue mages, this should be somewhere completely different from the rest. It is like the difference between a college/school and a maximum security prison. We have compulsory state education and children who bunk off may be tracked down by the police and made to attend but when they are old enough, then it is up to them if they wish to take their education to a higher level. Why should it be any different with mages? The majority are probably only capable of very low level magic anyway and would be quite happy just providing healing services to the community and the odd bit of defence against ferocious critters. There is no need to keep insisting on "Circles must be places of education". They can be replaced by the College of Enchanters.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
Posts: 567 Likes: 1,084
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Post by copper on Jul 26, 2018 19:46:50 GMT
Mages still need a way to learn how to control their powers though. Plus the circles can protect mages from non mages as much as the other way around. Remember how Wynne's powers manifested? She set a boy on fire. I seriously doubt she wouldn't have been killed by some angry and scared villagers if the circle wasn't an alternative. That's what the College of Enchanters is for. It needs to be brought back. As for angry mobs, they should be legally punished just like anyone who assaults another for no reason. That wouldn't make attacks stop entirely but it would reduce the number at least. It doesn't really matter to me whether it's the Circle system or College of Enchanters that does this. Though the College may not have enough public support in the long run.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
Posts: 567 Likes: 1,084
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Post by copper on Jul 26, 2018 19:50:01 GMT
I can't figure out how to quote multiple people at once, but Catilina I saw your response too and hopefully I can address parts of it below. Okay so change the name. It wouldn't prevent it from changing to function a bit better. I don't know enough about the College of Enchanters to be honest. If they're basically a circle with the mages policing themselves, than I can see that working as an option for mages who want to be separate from templars and the Chantry. I'm sketchy on the details, but don't the mages in Inquisition shoot themselves in the foot, so to speak? Taking over Redcliffe and joining the Venatori isn't going to convince anyone that mages are capable of handling freedom responsibly. Pretty much what the Colleges are; Reformed Circles with a different name. As for Redcliffe, the events leading up to it was rife with chaos and no one knowing what to do. It was a sort of lemmings panic that their sheltered existence contributed to instead of helping. They couldn't leave because rogue mages and Templars were warring, they already were facing hostility for being associated with them and they had Tevinter messing with them through time magic. It's less worse than a Seeker intentionally having an Envy demon infiltrate Templar ranks and deliberately refusing to bring order and instead leading the rest into war because they're reacting to the events instead of instigating it. Yeah, but my point was that Redcliffe just reenforces the Chantry propaganda. So even if the templars are worse in this scenario, they'll still be viewed as better in the eyes of most people.
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Post by thats1evildude on Jul 26, 2018 19:54:45 GMT
This does nothing to address the biggest problem with letting mages live freely, ie. that they are a target for demons.
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Post by opuspace on Jul 26, 2018 20:23:09 GMT
Pretty much what the Colleges are; Reformed Circles with a different name. As for Redcliffe, the events leading up to it was rife with chaos and no one knowing what to do. It was a sort of lemmings panic that their sheltered existence contributed to instead of helping. They couldn't leave because rogue mages and Templars were warring, they already were facing hostility for being associated with them and they had Tevinter messing with them through time magic. It's less worse than a Seeker intentionally having an Envy demon infiltrate Templar ranks and deliberately refusing to bring order and instead leading the rest into war because they're reacting to the events instead of instigating it. Yeah, but my point was that Redcliffe just reenforces the Chantry propaganda. So even if the templars are worse in this scenario, they'll still be viewed as better in the eyes of most people. You are right about that; Chantry propaganda emphasized fear of them and their abilities, encouraging pity at best and hatred at worst. But in a way, it can be potentially capitalized on too. The Chantry priding itself on keeping magic in check has failed everyone. They're the ones who were supposed to have control over the Templars. They were the ones who were seen as bringing order to these dangerous individuals until hell broke loose. With mages out and able to talk about what happened in the towers, now the common folk have access to all the ugly scandals that the Chantry suppressed and just how negligent they really were. With that sister who got punched out publicly by the leader of the Seekers? It's probable that some serious questioning would follow as to why did things go so wrong for an organization that prided itself on righteousness.
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Post by copper on Jul 26, 2018 20:35:21 GMT
Yeah, but my point was that Redcliffe just reenforces the Chantry propaganda. So even if the templars are worse in this scenario, they'll still be viewed as better in the eyes of most people. You are right about that; Chantry propaganda emphasized fear of them and their abilities, encouraging pity at best and hatred at worst. But in a way, it can be potentially capitalized on too. The Chantry priding itself on keeping magic in check has failed everyone. They're the ones who were supposed to have control over the Templars. They were the ones who were seen as bringing order to these dangerous individuals until hell broke loose. With mages out and able to talk about what happened in the towers, now the common folk have access to all the ugly scandals that the Chantry suppressed and just how negligent they really were. With that sister who got punched out publicly by the leader of the Seekers? It's probable that some serious questioning would follow as to why did things go so wrong for an organization that prided itself on righteousness. I hope so. I'd personally love to see the Chantry crash and burn haha.
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Post by Iddy on Jul 26, 2018 21:06:09 GMT
This does nothing to address the biggest problem with letting mages live freely, ie. that they are a target for demons. No such a thing as absolutely preventing it from happening. But I'm sure some kinda Hogwarts can be built on the long run.
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