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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 3, 2018 8:31:04 GMT
"If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor. If an elephant has its foot on the tail of a mouse and you say that you are neutral, the mouse will not appreciate your neutrality." Read more at: www.brainyquote.com/quotes/desmond_tutu_106145That is one thing I appreciated about both DA2 and DAI, and DAO to a lesser degree. I like that they force the player to choose. The player can use whatever criteria they wish -- roleplay, personal meta knowledge, who has the better outfits, which followers will abandon them, etc -- but they have to choose. There will always be at least one thing that someone can use to make a choice in a situation like that. And, y'know, that's life. Sometimes you can't avoid conflict. Meanwhile I thought it was very poor writing. There is no good reason why you have to be all in for one or the other. There are plenty of in the middle options that could exist. To use that mouse and elephant metaphor(which is silly since elephants are afraid of mice), there are options between leaving the mouse to their fate and killing the elephant. I want to help mages get a better lot in life but I don't want to have to kill hundreds of innocent soldiers who are just doing their jobs with inaccurate information. Likewise I want to stop the dark mages but not have to butcher them all to get to them. And I'm not saying make it easy or perfect, quite the contrary make the player have to work their butt off trying to appease both sides and even then have it where you may get the moderates on each side to agree but there are the zealots who won't and you have to face both those groups. Thankfully the man behind those one or the other choices is gone now.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Aug 3, 2018 8:41:52 GMT
Thankfully the man behind those one or the other choices is gone now. The man left in charge is the one that created Iron Bull's choice that resulted in his betrayal. I doubt Weekes will shy away from having us make such choices. And I'm not saying make it easy or perfect, quite the contrary make the player have to work their butt off trying to appease both sides and even then have it where you may get the moderates on each side to agree but there are the zealots who won't and you have to face both those groups. Trying to appease both sides might have resulted in some less harsh treatment for mages, but they still wouldn't have freedom. That's what they want: freedom. There are many mages that shouldn't even be in the Circle after their training is done that should be allowed to go about their lives. While I don't agree with Anders's methods, I do agree that something BIG needed to happen, a catalyst to force change. His action did that. There was never going to be a bloodless revolution. No revolutions are.
Would a peaceful change have been better? Certainly. But for the people killed, for the "innocents," why should their lives be valued more than the mages who were murdered by a templar for little to no reason?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 3, 2018 8:53:25 GMT
Thankfully the man behind those one or the other choices is gone now. The man left in charge is the one that created Iron Bull's choice that resulted in his betrayal. I doubt Weekes will shy away from having us make such choices. And I'm not saying make it easy or perfect, quite the contrary make the player have to work their butt off trying to appease both sides and even then have it where you may get the moderates on each side to agree but there are the zealots who won't and you have to face both those groups. Trying to appease both sides might have resulted in some less harsh treatment for mages, but they still wouldn't have freedom. That's what they want: freedom. There are many mages that shouldn't even be in the Circle after their training is done that should be allowed to go about their lives. While I don't agree with Anders's methods, I do agree that something BIG needed to happen, a catalyst to force change. His action did that. There was never going to be a bloodless revolution. No revolutions are. Patrick Weekes has never done it with factions however. The closest was the Krogan or Salarian choice, but even that had middle grounds like the STG still helping if you side with the krogan. I disagree completely. As I said in another thread, just look at history and you'll see that notion that there is no such thing as a bloodless revolution is inaccurate. I also disagree that trying to appease both sides wouldn't result in anything. Gradual change is a very real thing we see it all the time and that's where things were going until individuals who thought it would only work with big actions got involved and messed everything up. If it wasn't for the events that kick off Inquisition, these big actions needed for change some mages used would have resulted in changes all right: those changes being things being far worse for the mages if any existed left at all. Again, using the metaphor earlier if you kill an elephant that will just result in the rest of the herd attacking you and the mouse.
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Post by Catilina on Aug 3, 2018 9:07:11 GMT
That is one thing I appreciated about both DA2 and DAI, and DAO to a lesser degree. I like that they force the player to choose. The player can use whatever criteria they wish -- roleplay, personal meta knowledge, who has the better outfits, which followers will abandon them, etc -- but they have to choose. There will always be at least one thing that someone can use to make a choice in a situation like that. And, y'know, that's life. Sometimes you can't avoid conflict. Meanwhile I thought it was very poor writing. There is no good reason why you have to be all in for one or the other. There are plenty of in the middle options that could exist. To use that mouse and elephant metaphor(which is silly since elephants are afraid of mice), there are options between leaving the mouse to their fate and killing the elephant. I want to help mages get a better lot in life but I don't want to have to kill hundreds of innocent soldiers who are just doing their jobs with inaccurate information. Likewise I want to stop the dark mages but not have to butcher them all to get to them. And I'm not saying make it easy or perfect, quite the contrary make the player have to work their butt off trying to appease both sides and even then have it where you may get the moderates on each side to agree but there are the zealots who won't and you have to face both those groups. Thankfully the man behind those one or the other choices is gone now. Can you "reform" the slavery? NO. There are situations, where NO compromise exists – you should choose: to support the freedom, or support the slavery. NO middle ground exists. If you're on "middle" – you support the slavery. People who wants to be free, aren't "zealots".
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 3, 2018 9:12:23 GMT
Meanwhile I thought it was very poor writing. There is no good reason why you have to be all in for one or the other. There are plenty of in the middle options that could exist. To use that mouse and elephant metaphor(which is silly since elephants are afraid of mice), there are options between leaving the mouse to their fate and killing the elephant. I want to help mages get a better lot in life but I don't want to have to kill hundreds of innocent soldiers who are just doing their jobs with inaccurate information. Likewise I want to stop the dark mages but not have to butcher them all to get to them. And I'm not saying make it easy or perfect, quite the contrary make the player have to work their butt off trying to appease both sides and even then have it where you may get the moderates on each side to agree but there are the zealots who won't and you have to face both those groups. Thankfully the man behind those one or the other choices is gone now. Can you "reform" the slavery? NO. There are situations, where NO compromise exists – you should choose: to support the freedom, or support the slavery. NO middle ground exists. If you're on "middle" – you support the slavery. People who wants to be free, aren't "zealots". You can however end slavery without having to fight a war to do so. Plus the Circle system isn’t like slavery since there are reforms that would work. Even you have agreed with that. By zealots I mean those who want nothing but the destruction of the other side. For example people like Adrian, Anders, Lambert, Meredith, etc. Most characters on both sides are open to alternatives thus aren’t zealots.
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Post by Catilina on Aug 3, 2018 9:12:49 GMT
The man left in charge is the one that created Iron Bull's choice that resulted in his betrayal. I doubt Weekes will shy away from having us make such choices. Trying to appease both sides might have resulted in some less harsh treatment for mages, but they still wouldn't have freedom. That's what they want: freedom. There are many mages that shouldn't even be in the Circle after their training is done that should be allowed to go about their lives. While I don't agree with Anders's methods, I do agree that something BIG needed to happen, a catalyst to force change. His action did that. There was never going to be a bloodless revolution. No revolutions are. Patrick Weekes has never done it with factions however. The closest was the Krogan or Salarian choice, but even that had middle grounds like the STG still helping if you side with the krogan. I disagree completely. As I said in another thread, just look at history and you'll see that notion that there is no such thing as a bloodless revolution is inaccurate. I also disagree that trying to appease both sides wouldn't result in anything. Gradual change is a very real thing we see it all the time and that's where things were going until individuals who thought it would only work with big actions got involved and messed everything up. If it wasn't for the events that kick off Inquisition, these big actions needed for change some mages used would have resulted in changes all right: those changes being things being far worse for the mages if any existed left at all. Again, using the metaphor earlier if you kill an elephant that will just result in the rest of the herd attacking you and the mouse. No bloodless revolution exists. You never can avoid the bloodshed. If the system change peacefully there were precedent events – bloody protests, revolutions.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 3, 2018 9:14:19 GMT
Patrick Weekes has never done it with factions however. The closest was the Krogan or Salarian choice, but even that had middle grounds like the STG still helping if you side with the krogan.
I disagree completely. As I said in another thread, just look at history and you'll see that notion that there is no such thing as a bloodless revolution is inaccurate. I also disagree that trying to appease both sides wouldn't result in anything. Gradual change is a very real thing we see it all the time and that's where things were going until individuals who thought it would only work with big actions got involved and messed everything up. If it wasn't for the events that kick off Inquisition, these big actions needed for change some mages used would have resulted in changes all right: those changes being things being far worse for the mages if any existed left at all. Again, using the metaphor earlier if you kill an elephant that will just result in the rest of the herd attacking you and the mouse. No bloodless revolution exists. You never can avoid the bloodshed. If the system change peacefully there were preventive events – bloody protests, revolutions. I’ve already shown you one example where it does exist and there are others. Sorry, you are objectively wrong.
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Post by Catilina on Aug 3, 2018 9:17:21 GMT
Can you "reform" the slavery? NO. There are situations, where NO compromise exists – you should choose: to support the freedom, or support the slavery. NO middle ground exists. If you're on "middle" – you support the slavery. People who wants to be free, aren't "zealots". You can however end slavery without having to fight a war to do so. Plus the Circle system isn’t like slavery since there are reforms that would work. Even you have agreed with that. By zealots I mean those who want nothing but the destruction of the other side. For example people like Adrian, Anders, Lambert, Meredith, etc. Most characters on both sides are open to alternatives thus aren’t zealots. What are the "alternatives" to freedom? And to destroy the system doesn't mean to destroy the people on the other side. Just remember: Anders seemed very happy when saw, that the Mages and Templars working together.
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Post by Catilina on Aug 3, 2018 9:19:29 GMT
No bloodless revolution exists. You never can avoid the bloodshed. If the system change peacefully there were preventive events – bloody protests, revolutions. I’ve already shown you one example where it does exist and there are others. Sorry, you are objectively wrong. Yes, the "Velvet Revolution" – I know. But you know, how many bloodsheds preluded this?
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Gileadan
N5
Agent 46
Clearance Level Ultra
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: ALoneGretchin
Posts: 2,678 Likes: 6,665
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Post by Gileadan on Aug 3, 2018 9:23:55 GMT
"You're either for us or against us." - Meredith (and many others, see above)
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 3, 2018 9:25:22 GMT
You can however end slavery without having to fight a war to do so. Plus the Circle system isn’t like slavery since there are reforms that would work. Even you have agreed with that. By zealots I mean those who want nothing but the destruction of the other side. For example people like Adrian, Anders, Lambert, Meredith, etc. Most characters on both sides are open to alternatives thus aren’t zealots. What are the "alternatives" to freedom? And to destroy the system doesn't mean to destroy the people on the other side. Just remember: Anders seemed very happy when saw, that the Mages and Templars working together. I was talking about alternatives to war. The majority on both sides were open to compromises hence agreeing to the Conclave. Meanwhile characters like those I mentioned were not open to compromise and even acting against any possibility of compromise. That makes those people zealots, since a zealot is "a person who is fanatical and uncompromising in pursuit of their religious, political, or other ideals". I’ve already shown you one example where it does exist and there are others. Sorry, you are objectively wrong. Yes, the "Velvet Revolution" – I know. But you know, how many bloodsheds prevented this? I know English isn't your first language, so can you please explain what you are trying to say here? Just asking since the word you used is not correct since nothing prevented it from happening because it happened.
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Post by Catilina on Aug 3, 2018 9:28:55 GMT
What are the "alternatives" to freedom? And to destroy the system doesn't mean to destroy the people on the other side. Just remember: Anders seemed very happy when saw, that the Mages and Templars working together. I was talking about alternatives to war. The majority on both sides were open to compromises hence agreeing to the Conclave. Meanwhile characters like those I mentioned were not open to compromise and even acting against any possibility of compromise. That makes those people zealots, since a zealot is "a person who is fanatical and uncompromising in pursuit of their religious, political, or other ideals". Yes, the "Velvet Revolution" – I know. But you know, how many bloodsheds prevented this? I know English isn't your first language, so can you please explain what you are trying to say? Just asking since the word you used is not correct since nothing prevented it from happening because it happened. Again: what are the "alternatives" to freedom? I can't see compromise in the question of the freedom. Mistyped, fixed.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 3, 2018 9:31:33 GMT
I was talking about alternatives to war. The majority on both sides were open to compromises hence agreeing to the Conclave. Meanwhile characters like those I mentioned were not open to compromise and even acting against any possibility of compromise. That makes those people zealots, since a zealot is "a person who is fanatical and uncompromising in pursuit of their religious, political, or other ideals".
I know English isn't your first language, so can you please explain what you are trying to say? Just asking since the word you used is not correct since nothing prevented it from happening because it happened. Again: what are the "alternatives" to freedom? I can't see compromise in the question of the freedom. Mistyped, fixed. Again, I'm talking about alternatives to war. Ah, okay. Reading the fix, that is irrelevant. Just because blood was shed in the past and may even inspire the present movement doesn't mean said present movement has to also shed blood. Also be careful using the past to justify present actions. That's a double-edged sword.
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Post by Catilina on Aug 3, 2018 9:41:20 GMT
Again: what are the "alternatives" to freedom? I can't see compromise in the question of the freedom. Mistyped, fixed. Again, I'm talking about alternatives to war. Now please answer the post as I wrote it. Ah, okay. Reading the fix, that is irrelevant. Just because blood was shed in the past and may even inspire the present movement doesn't mean said present movement has to also shed blood. There only one alternative to the war: the freedom. Just a reminder: not the mages started the war: the Seekers were. The mages only declared the freedom. If the Seekers and the Templars would support that, then the war would be avoidable. No alternative. You can't just ignore the antecedents – even if they're bloody, and you don't like it. And you didn't answer: what the compromise about the slavery... how do you can respect both "sides"?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 3, 2018 9:50:18 GMT
Again, I'm talking about alternatives to war. Now please answer the post as I wrote it. Ah, okay. Reading the fix, that is irrelevant. Just because blood was shed in the past and may even inspire the present movement doesn't mean said present movement has to also shed blood. There only one alternative to the war: the freedom. Just a reminder: not the mages started the war: the Seekers were. The mages only declared the freedom. If the Seekers and the Templars would support that, then the war would be avoidable. No alternative. You can't just ignore the antecedents – even if they're bloody, and you don't like it. Ah, so now the war wasn’t started by Anders? And you were so proud of that. Freedom and war are not alternatives. War was a method and freedom the goal. There are other methods to reach that goal. I’m not ignoring the antecedents. However that doesn’t mean that those have to determine how later events go. Just because America had to fight a full blown civil war to give black people more freedom does not mean that America would need to go into a full blown civil war to give black people more freedom for example. That’s how civilization evolves. Otherwise we’d still be fighting wars that started thousands of years ago.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 3, 2018 9:53:22 GMT
And you didn't answer: what the compromise about the slavery... how do you can respect both "sides"? I did answer actually. I don’t see the two situations as comparable since the Circle situation has tons of room for things that respects both sides, including some you even agreed with. Also should note that there are countries that ended slavery without having to have a war.
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Post by Catilina on Aug 3, 2018 9:56:30 GMT
There only one alternative to the war: the freedom. Just a reminder: not the mages started the war: the Seekers were. The mages only declared the freedom. If the Seekers and the Templars would support that, then the war would be avoidable. No alternative. You can't just ignore the antecedents – even if they're bloody, and you don't like it. Ah, so now the war wasn’t started by Anders? And you were so proud of that. Freedom and war are not alternatives. War was a method and freedom the goal. There are other methods to reach that goal. I’m not ignoring the antecedents. However that doesn’t mean that those have to determine how later events go. Just because America had to fight a full blown civil war to give black people more freedom does not mean that America would need to go into a full blown civil war to give black people more freedom for example. That’s how civilization evolves. Otherwise we’d still be fighting wars that started thousands of years ago. Anders ignites a spark and started a revolution. But the WAR was started by the Seekers and the Templars, who weren't able to accept the mages' freedom. Instead of support that, they declared the war. Perhaps, the civilization can learn – but it started somewhere. With bloodshed. And you didn't answer: what the compromise about the slavery... how do you can respect both "sides"?
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Post by Catilina on Aug 3, 2018 10:03:48 GMT
And you didn't answer: what the compromise about the slavery... how do you can respect both "sides"? I did answer actually. I don’t see the two situations as comparable since the Circle situation has tons of room for things that respects both sides, including some you even agreed with. Also should note that there are countries that ended slavery without having to have a war. No, you didn't answer it – because the point was the freedom. Can you do a compromise about a slavery to avoid the bloodshed? The Circle-system and the slavery aren't the same, but pretty similar. (With whom I agreed, who support the prison-Circles?)
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 3, 2018 10:04:15 GMT
Ah, so now the war wasn’t started by Anders? And you were so proud of that. Freedom and war are not alternatives. War was a method and freedom the goal. There are other methods to reach that goal. I’m not ignoring the antecedents. However that doesn’t mean that those have to determine how later events go. Just because America had to fight a full blown civil war to give black people more freedom does not mean that America would need to go into a full blown civil war to give black people more freedom for example. That’s how civilization evolves. Otherwise we’d still be fighting wars that started thousands of years ago. Anders ignites a spark and started a revolution. But the WAR was started by the Seekers and the Templars, who weren't able to accept the mages' freedom. Instead of support that, they declared the war. Perhaps, the civilization can learn – but it started somewhere. With bloodshed. That's like saying one group didn't start a war when they attacked, it was the group they attacked who started the war because they attacked back. But anyway, I was just teasing you with that part hence the emoji so don't want to get into that discussion. Actually, civilization started by setting aside bloodshed. People realized things would be better for all of them if they worked together rather than fight each other.
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Post by Catilina on Aug 3, 2018 10:16:30 GMT
Anders ignites a spark and started a revolution. But the WAR was started by the Seekers and the Templars, who weren't able to accept the mages' freedom. Instead of support that, they declared the war. Perhaps, the civilization can learn – but it started somewhere. With bloodshed. That's like saying one group didn't start a war when they attacked, it was the group they attacked who started the war because they attacked back. But anyway, I was just teasing you with that part hence the emoji so don't want to get into that discussion. Actually, civilization started by setting aside bloodshed. People realized things would be better for all of them if they worked together rather than fight each other. So no, civilization didn't start with bloodshed. Yes, very funny, indeed. When I said, the civilization started with bloodshed? The learning was bloody.
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