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Post by rras1994 on Jul 31, 2018 16:27:34 GMT
Well technically you don't own intellectual property - basically, you rent your copy until a.) something happens to it b.) they revoke it. Not according to the laws in my country. I can't profit from copyrighted material but I own any software copy i bought. Consumer rights done correctly. Er, kinda? Buying software is a contract, if you go against your end of the contract i.e say like hurling abuse at others in the game, editing the software against the ToS, they can take it away from you/block you from their services. The consumer does not have the right to do everything they want just cus they bought the copy, like for example if cus of a system update you can't play anymore, oh well, you don't actually have the right to edit that software to work (though most games companies won't enforce that and allow modding, they don't have to) That code is their intellectual property, you get to use it and that's pretty much it. Just like how you don't get to just edit sections of books and movies for your own use either. Also even if you buy it, it doesn't require the company to make sure it works or available to download for ever, technology evolves and they only guarantee it working with the spec it comes with. Also if you can't download it after 10, 20 years, there's no judge that's going to say you didn't get your money's worth of that product for $60 in that time frame.
Owning something doesn't mean you get it forever, it's just a different kind of contract compared to a subscription. While I'm sure subscriptions will become more popular it does not mean though for those that would prefer to buy, they won't get that opition - streaming has become dominant in TV and Movies, but you can still buy both those things. Same with Music. I think the same thing will probably happen with games.
So in summary, go with the option that suits you best??
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 31, 2018 17:06:22 GMT
Well technically you don't own intellectual property - basically, you rent your copy until a.) something happens to it b.) they revoke it. Not according to the laws in my country. I can't profit from copyrighted material but I own any software copy i bought. Consumer rights done correctly. You only own rights to use it from the copy you bought, and that's really only so long as the thing it's on works or exists. So my point still stands. And in most countries you can neither profit or share copies of your own copy. Which is how it should be. You can't forget that copyright laws apply not just to big, corporate products but to things made by small creators like myself and we usually suffer the most when people treat IP like owning a copy means owning rights to the thing. So if you own, say, a t-shirt or a phone wallpaper, all you 'own' is that shirt and wallpaper with a copy of my work on it and you are not allowed to profit, distribute or use it in any other way it's specified to be used, unless it's either fair use (critique, commentary, etc) or I officially allow for it to be so.
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Post by Hrungr on Jul 31, 2018 17:10:13 GMT
As far as Origin Access Premier is concerned, I think it can be worth it if you normally buy 2 (or more) AAA EA titles / year. It works because they also sell their games (and discount them fairly quickly after release). It's not like Adobe where there is only a subscription model.
Quickly doing the math, if it costs me $130/yr CDN for OAP, and deluxe games are normally $100 CDN, that saves me $70/yr if I'm normally buying 2 games a year. And that doesn't include playing any of their other Library games (and there are some good ones in there).
If at some point down the line you decide to quit, the money you saved can be put towards buying (likely discounted) versions of those specific games you feel you might want to play again. For me, unless it's a BioWare RPG, it's unlikely I'll play other EA games after I've finished them. I'm not going to suddenly feel the urge to play Battlefield-Battlefront-whatever after I've moved on. So you can still come out ahead that way.
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Post by Space Cowboy on Jul 31, 2018 21:18:00 GMT
I’m not terribly concerned with ownership semantics. What I don’t like is having to keep paying for a game in case I want to play it again later.
M$ is apparently heading that way with windows 10. Rumour is they will start charging a subscription fee you’ll have to keep paying in order to keep using windows. They already did it with office 365
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Post by river82 on Jul 31, 2018 21:49:14 GMT
that's really only so long as the thing it's on works or exists. Anyone who actually cares about their stuff should back up whatever they bought (which is legal as long as you don't distribute it). You can't do that with physical books, but ebooks, dvds, and blu rays, digital copies of shows, games etc can easily be copied and stored on an external hard drive. EDIT: Oh wait, it's only legal in some countries. Eh, just ignore that law. The police aren't interested in the dude who backs up their stuff for personal use, they're only interested (if they're interested at all) in tracking down people who rip then distribute.
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 31, 2018 22:34:11 GMT
that's really only so long as the thing it's on works or exists. Anyone who actually cares about their stuff should back up whatever they bought (which is legal as long as you don't distribute it). You can't do that with physical books, but ebooks, dvds, and blu rays, digital copies of shows, games etc can easily be copied and stored on an external hard drive. EDIT: Oh wait, it's only legal in some countries. Eh, just ignore that law. The police aren't interested in the dude who backs up their stuff for personal use, they're only interested (if they're interested at all) in tracking down people who rip then distribute. Well in my country it's not illegal to copy, or even download, so long as you don't redistribute it... which of course means torrents aren't legal because it's copying and sending the thing simultaneously.
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Post by midnight tea on Aug 1, 2018 10:31:00 GMT
So apparently EA killed their "on the house" program, in what seems to be part of the attempt to push forward their "EA Access" program. (those programs offer access to older games IIRC) EA, For Us The Customer Is Always The First Priority.Just to clarify, I don't claim that they had to give their older games for free, just that this new push towards recurring monetization has nothing to do with consumer interest and everything to do with creating their version of a "walled garden", in order to ensure that you'd spend as much money as possible on their products and no one else's. This is a plain anti-competitive practice intended to create "loyalty", or rather, create confirmation bias among subscribers. I guess if they can't compete by providing quality, they have to find other more underhanded methods to do it... It's not just EA titles that are available through Origin Access. Example? Recently Cities Skylines showed up in it - a title that is easily available on Steam that I now have access to for a monthly fee, as I do to multiple other non-EAa titles, like Batman: Arkham Asylum or a slew of indie games, from Sexy Brutale and Abzu to Banner Saga and Tides of Numenera. In other words: expect more game companies and publishers having deals like that with subscription-based programs, not just EA's.
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Post by SofaJockey on Aug 1, 2018 10:53:41 GMT
I will continue to use GOG and Steam as my gaming platforms, I will treat platform "exclusive" games the same way I treat console/win10 exclusive games - I simply don't buy them. What about Origin? How else do you access BioWare titles?
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Post by Pounce de León on Aug 1, 2018 10:57:51 GMT
I’m not terribly concerned with ownership semantics. What I don’t like is having to keep paying for a game in case I want to play it again later. M$ is apparently heading that way with windows 10. Rumour is they will start charging a subscription fee you’ll have to keep paying in order to keep using windows. They already did it with office 365 Big thing for me, too. I have no idea when I might want to play a game again. Maybe after 3 months. Maybe after a year. Or 2. It happens. I don't want to binge on a game just because the subscription might end. I'd rather not play at all then, cos I want to play when I want and not when some contract lets me. And I'm certainly not paying extra to be able to do what I already can by "buying a copy".
Anecdotal remark: The first time I encountered "season pass" was with the Bioshock 2 game. Was that #2? The one where you go to Columbia. I saw some marketing stuff and "season pass". I was like: "Why would I buy this game just for one season (you know winter, summer, spring and that) - what if I want to play the game after that?" I found that stupid. Here, you buy a season ticket for one years access to your football team's matches, access to the ski lift for that winter skiing season, access to summer schedule at your theater, bus tickets for a month. That's "season passes". When the time is up - no more bus rides on that ticket.
tl;dr I don't really wanna buy games onna season ticket for I dunno when I want to replay them.
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Post by midnight tea on Aug 1, 2018 11:09:27 GMT
It's not just EA titles that are available through Origin Access. Example? Recently Cities Skylines showed up in it - a title that is easily available on Steam that I now have access to for a monthly fee, as I do to multiple other non-EAa titles, like Batman: Arkham Asylum or a slew of indie games, from Sexy Brutale and Abzu to Banner Saga and Tides of Numenera. In other words: expect more game companies and publishers having deals like that with subscription-based programs, not just EA's. I don't see how that changes anything I said. The fact that they managed to get some indies on their platform is just an attempt to make it slightly more relevant. You said that they're creating " walled garden, in order to ensure that you'd spend as much money as possible on their products and no one else's" so I pointed out that it's not just EA titles that are available in EA Origins program. I'd say it does changes things a bit, especially that games just keep showing up. They hardly make a symbolic effort - I think at this point there are more non-EA games there than EA's already, and not just indies. We are talking here about more than just Origin Access, aren't we? We're talking about the whole trend across the gaming industry and we know it's not just EA that is moving forward a sub model. So expect for such things appear in other gaming platforms - heck, Microsoft already has one (or about to have launch it). I betcha Steam will have one at some point too. They're already offering bundles and those are quite popular - subscription will simply be access to a large, select bundle of games. And given the amount of utter crap overflowing Steam Direct I think people would welcome a nice, curated access to quality games for a modest fee.
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Post by Pounce de León on Aug 1, 2018 11:13:41 GMT
Since it came up on another thread: How would you cancel your preorder on a subscription model?
Is it wise to give away the ability to say "Preorder cancelled!" for this? (Don't answer - this is a rhetorical question.)
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Post by midnight tea on Aug 1, 2018 11:16:06 GMT
tl;dr I don't really wanna buy games onna season ticket for I dunno when I want to replay them. Hmmm... since when you have to pay full price for a game that's on the market for a few months? At a time my sub runs out or I find an itch to play the game it's very likely the game I like and want to play will be heavily discounted, as games usually are.
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Post by Pounce de León on Aug 1, 2018 11:23:16 GMT
tl;dr I don't really wanna buy games onna season ticket for I dunno when I want to replay them. Hmmm... since when you have to pay full price for a game that's on the market for a few months? At a time my sub runs out or I find an itch to play the game it's very likely the game I like and want to play will be heavily discounted, as games usually are. You pay for the sub and then buy a copy? That kinda sounds to much trouble for my liking. I know the corps count on people forgetting about the recurring cost - I don't and for that caost I feel the offer is just too thin.
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Post by midnight tea on Aug 1, 2018 11:33:17 GMT
Hmmm... since when you have to pay full price for a game that's on the market for a few months? At a time my sub runs out or I find an itch to play the game it's very likely the game I like and want to play will be heavily discounted, as games usually are. You pay for the sub and then buy a copy? That kinda sounds to much trouble for my liking. I know the corps count on people forgetting about the recurring cost - I don't and for that caost I feel the offer is just too thin. We are talking about a scenario in which the sub runs out, right? I mean... you realize that paying for a few months of sub to play the game when it's new and then (in a scenario when sub runs out) buying a discounted game can actually cost me less than paying for a full game at a time of release?
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Post by Pounce de León on Aug 1, 2018 11:43:36 GMT
You pay for the sub and then buy a copy? That kinda sounds to much trouble for my liking. I know the corps count on people forgetting about the recurring cost - I don't and for that caost I feel the offer is just too thin. We are talking about a scenario in which the sub runs out, right? I mean... you realize that paying for a few months of sub to play the game when it's new and then (in a scenario when sub runs out) buying a discounted game can actually cost me less than paying for a full game at a time of release? Usually I either buy early and pay full price and not bother much more. Or buy late at a discount and not bother anymore. Neither requires me to manage subscriptions.
And I certainly don't want to start 3 conscriptions for the large publishers so I can get to play their games. That's what it's really about. They are just trying to fish market share. I doubt people will run multiple subs for different publishers. It'll be either one coming out big, pushing the others aside or we'll maybe see new companies reselling games via subscriptions. Just like TV streaming. But it's mostly about control, exclusives and dictating their terms.
I can live without that. Never was keen on console bullshit neither. I mean in terms of marketing and turds you have to eat to use the operator's services.
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Post by midnight tea on Aug 1, 2018 12:16:18 GMT
We are talking about a scenario in which the sub runs out, right? I mean... you realize that paying for a few months of sub to play the game when it's new and then (in a scenario when sub runs out) buying a discounted game can actually cost me less than paying for a full game at a time of release? Usually I either buy early and pay full price and not bother much more. Or buy late at a discount and not bother anymore. Neither requires me to manage subscriptions. Right... what a horrible and complicated process that is - managing subscriptions. Truly gives you a headache to click a few buttons. Your gaming habits have little to do with what we were discussing anyhow. We were talking about how subs don't have to cost people more or the fact that when the sub runs out for someone games are usually at nice discounts and can be snatched cheap and easily. I don't expect for sales of individual games to go away anytime soon anyway; subscriptions aren't here to replace that, so your purchasing habits aren't endangered. I bet though that people who don't have enough money to buy games at full price or even a discount and 'not bother' will appreciate being able to play or try various games they want to play, even if a few dollars they can spend will buy them just a month or two of access. If people can be subscribed to Netflix and Amazon Prime and Blue Apron and a few Patreons and Adobe or newspaper subs, they can be subscribed to multiple game-related subscription services. While I'm not a console person myself, it's funny that you say that, considering that some of the best AAA games released on the market now are console exclusives.
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Post by Pounce de León on Aug 1, 2018 12:28:22 GMT
...While I'm not a console person myself, it's funny that you say that, considering that some of the best AAA games released on the market now are console exclusives. And I'm never going to play them. That's the price of exclusivity. Hit or miss. Betamax or VHS. You can't market to everybody when you wanna be "special". And if you want in on the "special", yout gotta buy in to that market. Too bad the good stuff releases tomorrow on the other platform. Might as well buy in there, too, right?
Same thing with those subscription models. Once they control the sales channels , they can dictate pretty much everything. And that's not good and that's why I rather not support the whole thing.
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Post by Space Cowboy on Aug 1, 2018 12:44:40 GMT
You pay for the sub and then buy a copy? That kinda sounds to much trouble for my liking. I know the corps count on people forgetting about the recurring cost - I don't and for that caost I feel the offer is just too thin. We are talking about a scenario in which the sub runs out, right? I mean... you realize that paying for a few months of sub to play the game when it's new and then (in a scenario when sub runs out) buying a discounted game can actually cost me less than paying for a full game at a time of release? That’s not how subscription games work. Assuming no free to play, you buy the game and pay a sub to keep playing it. If you cancel the sub you can’t play it. Sure you can buy a game months after release for a cheaper rate but you still need to sub to play.
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Post by Space Cowboy on Aug 1, 2018 12:50:57 GMT
So apparently EA killed their "on the house" program, in what seems to be part of the attempt to push forward their "EA Access" program. (those programs offer access to older games IIRC) EA, For Us The Customer Is Always The First Priority.Just to clarify, I don't claim that they had to give their older games for free, just that this new push towards recurring monetization has nothing to do with consumer interest and everything to do with creating their version of a "walled garden", in order to ensure that you'd spend as much money as possible on their products and no one else's. This is a plain anti-competitive practice intended to create "loyalty", or rather, create confirmation bias among subscribers. I guess if they can't compete by providing quality, they have to find other more underhanded methods to do it... It's not just EA titles that are available through Origin Access. Example? Recently Cities Skylines showed up in it - a title that is easily available on Steam that I now have access to for a monthly fee, as I do to multiple other non-EAa titles, like Batman: Arkham Asylum or a slew of indie games, from Sexy Brutale and Abzu to Banner Saga and Tides of Numenera. In other words: expect more game companies and publishers having deals like that with subscription-based programs, not just EA's. I have access to those games now for no monthly fee. I’ve had cities skylines for years. If I paid a monthly fee of 5 dollars for it I would have spent far more than the 30 dollars it actually cost me
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Post by bshep on Aug 1, 2018 13:03:46 GMT
Not according to the laws in my country. I can't profit from copyrighted material but I own any software copy i bought. Consumer rights done correctly. You only own rights to use it from the copy you bought, and that's really only so long as the thing it's on works or exists. So my point still stands. And in most countries you can neither profit or share copies of your own copy. Which is how it should be. You can't forget that copyright laws apply not just to big, corporate products but to things made by small creators like myself and we usually suffer the most when people treat IP like owning a copy means owning rights to the thing. So if you own, say, a t-shirt or a phone wallpaper, all you 'own' is that shirt and wallpaper with a copy of my work on it and you are not allowed to profit, distribute or use it in any other way it's specified to be used, unless it's either fair use (critique, commentary, etc) or I officially allow for it to be so. That is precisely what i mean. I can share my copy of the software because by law i own it (as long i don't try to profit from it). For that i am grateful for my country's laws, because the idea you don't own something you bought but only holds a license of use is a disgusting practice.
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Post by midnight tea on Aug 1, 2018 13:26:42 GMT
It's not just EA titles that are available through Origin Access. Example? Recently Cities Skylines showed up in it - a title that is easily available on Steam that I now have access to for a monthly fee, as I do to multiple other non-EAa titles, like Batman: Arkham Asylum or a slew of indie games, from Sexy Brutale and Abzu to Banner Saga and Tides of Numenera. In other words: expect more game companies and publishers having deals like that with subscription-based programs, not just EA's. I have access to those games now for no monthly fee. I’ve had cities skylines for years. If I paid a monthly fee of 5 dollars for it I would have spent far more than the 30 dollars it actually cost me I've given C:S as an example of non-EA games being in EA access, so in a different context compared to point you're making here. Still - it's also a great example of a game that is available through other platforms, with C:S not disappearing from Steam in order to be on Origin Access or available through non-sub means, isn't it? Also, your point would stand if C:S was the ONLY game available after paying for a sub. Thing is, that it's only one of over 120 titles currently in the Vault. C:S currently costs around 29$ on Steam, so that means that if somebody would like to sub to Origin to try C:S (which is doubtful, but it's a hypothetical scenario) they get access to 3 months of play PLUS over 120 games. Now, I love C:S as I find managing and building cities relaxing (and since I use Workshop mods I don't imagine playing it through Origin anyhow) - but while I don't sub OA for it, but plan to stay in it to try Anthem and play Mass Effect I also enjoy the fact that if I'm in a mood to play something else I CAN do so without paying more than what I pay for a monthly fee. It also gives me a chance to try games, including indie games, I didn't really think about purchasing. And if I like them enough, I can think of buying them after my sub runs out or support the developer with buying stuff like DLCs, mtx or future releases. This is why I'm saying that other game companies and publishers will be having deals with subscription-based programs like EA's Origin Access. Because it only makes sense for them to show up in multiple platforms, while sub services would want to create an offer that would entice people to try them. We are talking about a scenario in which the sub runs out, right? I mean... you realize that paying for a few months of sub to play the game when it's new and then (in a scenario when sub runs out) buying a discounted game can actually cost me less than paying for a full game at a time of release? That’s not how subscription games work. Assuming no free to play, you buy the game and pay a sub to keep playing it. If you cancel the sub you can’t play it. Sure you can buy a game months after release for a cheaper rate but you still need to sub to play. Of course you can. If you unsub from subscription service and then buy the full game outside of the service you don't have to sub back in order to play the game you own. This is exactly how subscription works and 100% how OA works. Naturally, you have to buy the game on the same account you bought sub for if you want to keep your progress, but that's rather obvious for any service that offers account-bound games, be it Origin or Steam.
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Post by Space Cowboy on Aug 1, 2018 13:37:56 GMT
Midnight tea, I can’t quote all that on my phone... well I could but it would be messy. Lol
Anyway, I was thinking of games like mmos where a sub is required to play.
If there are a significant number of those games on OA you are interested in trying in any given month then sure. It’s a bit like cable services though where they bundle one channel you want with a bunch you don’t and charge you for all of them. I’d prefer simply paying outright for the game or whatever other product I want.
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Post by midnight tea on Aug 1, 2018 13:46:39 GMT
You only own rights to use it from the copy you bought, and that's really only so long as the thing it's on works or exists. So my point still stands. And in most countries you can neither profit or share copies of your own copy. Which is how it should be. You can't forget that copyright laws apply not just to big, corporate products but to things made by small creators like myself and we usually suffer the most when people treat IP like owning a copy means owning rights to the thing. So if you own, say, a t-shirt or a phone wallpaper, all you 'own' is that shirt and wallpaper with a copy of my work on it and you are not allowed to profit, distribute or use it in any other way it's specified to be used, unless it's either fair use (critique, commentary, etc) or I officially allow for it to be so. That is precisely what i mean. I can share my copy of the software because by law i own it (as long i don't try to profit from it). For that i am grateful for my country's laws,. because the idea you don't own something you bought but only holds a license of use is a disgusting practice We are buying all kinds of services that we don't technically own or have limited, temporal access to, so why is buying a license to use a program or a game any more disgusting than those? I mean, call it disgusting or whatevs, but you simply don't own any piece of IP or program you bought, whether your country allows you to copy it or not. I mean... that's like saying that you find it disgusting that only I hold rights to my own work because you bought a shirt or wallpaper featuring it. Intellectual property is still property - and as much as we're in need to discuss its place in modern, continuously more virtual market, buying the license to utilize a thing doesn't yet make you own it. You 'own' it only in a very limited capacity that lets you use it for a time being or until the thing breaks or expires. This is NOT a new concept.
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fchopin
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by fchopin on Aug 1, 2018 13:57:02 GMT
I do not like game services, I buy games that i like so i can play them any time i want.
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midnight tea
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Post by midnight tea on Aug 1, 2018 13:59:57 GMT
Midnight tea, I can’t quote all that on my phone... well I could but it would be messy. Lol Anyway, I was thinking of games like mmos where a sub is required to play. Well, a sub to things like Origin Access is not the same as a subscription to an MMO, and a lot of MMOs today also don't require a sub to play. Take ESO that I happen to be subscribed to - I have access to some sub benefits and all of DLCs so long as I do. If I stop paying for a sub I lose access to those sub goodies and DLCs, but I can still play the game. I can also buy DLCs for in-game currency and thus unlock those for my account forever. If this is what you prefer I don't think anybody here would try and make you pay for a service you personally don't see any value in. All I'm arguing for is that a subscription model ain't just some demonic, corporate thing, that we will likely see more of it in the future from many directions and among indies too, and there are likely many people who'd find subscription offerings beneficial or cheaper for them in the long run. Is this hypothetical bunch of crap still worth those 3-4 things you want access to and it'd still come out cheaper than if you bought them individually? Each person would have to evaluate these things for themselves.
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