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Post by Lazarillo on Aug 11, 2018 1:16:17 GMT
So, hooboy, prolly kicking the hornets' nest here, but thanks to the Seeker quest, it's made clear that not only can Tranquility be "cured", but also, that it can be done to anyone. So...why isn't it? Tranquil still retain all their knowledge from before, their skill, and can apply themselves in ways non-Tranquil can't due to the "distractions" of things like desire or ambition. It's only ever used to punish Mages, but imagine someone like Gaspard...people are content to let him be killed, but not put his tactical knowledge to use to defend the south from the Qunari, without the opportunity for his ambition to put Orlais' neighbors at risk? Heck, even putting aside the morality of using it punitively, I can imagine that non-Mages, particularly, might even see it as a step up.
Was it only kept a secret to keep the cure a secret too? 'cause if so, it almost feels like a waste. Or is there some other reason that it's only ever used on Mages?
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Post by Catilina on Aug 11, 2018 1:40:08 GMT
It's a great idea! To make useful, obedient slaves! No. It should be banned. And the Tranquils should be cured. Or just like the death sentence as a final solution – but still dangerous, because of seems "mercy" so too easy to use without compunction. So: rather should be banned. (But who insist to that the Tranquility is a solution, and impossible to cure, because it's dangerous: should be Tranquilized... and ask: should be cured or not... )
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Post by Lazarillo on Aug 11, 2018 1:54:23 GMT
I'm not asking anything about whether it should be used, though. The morality is irrelevant to the question, I'm wondering about the logistics. Regardless of whether or not s/he should, the Inquisitor can make Alexius and Erimond Tranquil. If s/he did, then why not the same for Samson or Florianne? Some pre-Mages choose Tranquility over the Harrowing. Why not give the same opportunity to a Grey Warden warrior who wants to abandon their life to focus singlemindedly on defeating Darkspawn?
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Post by Catilina on Aug 11, 2018 2:05:04 GMT
I'm not asking anything about whether it should be used, though. The morality is irrelevant to the question, I'm wondering about the logistics. Regardless of whether or not s/he should, the Inquisitor can make Alexius and Erimond Tranquil. If s/he did, then why not the same for Samson or Florianne? Some pre-Mages choose Tranquility over the Harrowing. Why not give the same opportunity to a Grey Warden warrior who wants to abandon their life to focus singlemindedly on defeating Darkspawn? Yes, I know. But if the Tranquility would such a practical punishment – or presented as a good possibility (that Grey Warden warrior), it would be the worst thing I can imagine. Not better than the Qun. It should be NOT presented as a choice. If it's a good idea, then Erimond was right... no matter you ruins the mind with Tranquility or blood magic. It's always about the morality.
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Post by duskwanderer on Aug 11, 2018 2:07:15 GMT
Mechanic reason - It would require the team to write more dialogue and pay the voice actors more.
Lore reason - Cassandra does not have the sunburst on her forehead like other Tranquil. Neither did Lucius or any of the other Seekers (and I'm sure it would've been mentioned in Asunder if they did). It is very likely that the ritual used for Tranquility is not the same thing as the thing the Circle uses. The Rite was designed centuries ago: It is likely not the same procedure as it was when it was first developed, all things change over time. The lore of the Seekers may not explain how the rite is performed.
Therefore, it is entirely possible that doing so is not feasible.
Though I have to say: Putting the rite of Tranquility on Celene would be hilarious.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Aug 11, 2018 3:10:38 GMT
So, hooboy, prolly kicking the hornets' nest here, but thanks to the Seeker quest, it's made clear that not only can Tranquility be "cured", but also, that it can be done to anyone. So...why isn't it? Tranquil still retain all their knowledge from before, their skill, and can apply themselves in ways non-Tranquil can't due to the "distractions" of things like desire or ambition. It's only ever used to punish Mages, but imagine someone like Gaspard...people are content to let him be killed, but not put his tactical knowledge to use to defend the south from the Qunari, without the opportunity for his ambition to put Orlais' neighbors at risk? Heck, even putting aside the morality of using it punitively, I can imagine that non-Mages, particularly, might even see it as a step up. Was it only kept a secret to keep the cure a secret too? 'cause if so, it almost feels like a waste. Or is there some other reason that it's only ever used on Mages? I think it's because Thedas doesn't really view it as a means of removing distractions and continuing to use the Tranquil's skills. Originally, it wasn't meant as a punishment at all, but as a way of preventing mages who couldn't control their powers from hurting others (by either becoming abominations or just not keeping a leash on their magic.) It morphed into a punishment later (in some cases, since it was still used according to its original intent in others,) but the reason it's a punishment for mages is that it was originally a response to dangers specific to magic, and to some degree it still is. Oh, and, what's that buzzing noise? Uh oh... <iframe width="23.960000000000036" height="4.5" style="position: absolute; width: 23.960000000000036px; height: 4.5px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none;left: 15px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_59697236" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="23.960000000000036" height="4.5" style="position: absolute; width: 23.96px; height: 4.5px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1138px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_39406155" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="23.960000000000036" height="4.5" style="position: absolute; width: 23.96px; height: 4.5px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 15px; top: 164px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_21732801" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="23.960000000000036" height="4.5" style="position: absolute; width: 23.96px; height: 4.5px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1138px; top: 164px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_52621160" scrolling="no"></iframe>
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Post by Iddy on Aug 11, 2018 6:12:50 GMT
I thought seekers were ex-mages
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Aug 11, 2018 6:23:54 GMT
I thought seekers were ex-mages There's nothing that hints at that, is there? Well unless you assume it's literally impossible to turn a non-mage Tranquil, and I don't think that was ever explicitly stated or strongly hinted at either. It also wouldn't make much sense given that Cassandra has no idea she was made Tranquil until she reads it in the Lord Seeker's tome, and if she'd had magical powers that suddenly went from normal to much more muted, you'd think she'd have suspected. Not to mention that, as far as I've ever heard, Lambert speaks of mages as though they were a group he isn't and never was part of.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 11, 2018 6:26:06 GMT
I thought seekers were ex-mages There's nothing that hints at that, is there? Well unless you assume it's literally impossible to turn a non-mage Tranquil and, I don't think that was ever explicitly stated or strongly hinted at. No, there isn’t. We see Cassandra’s past before she joins the Seekers in Dawn of the Seeker and she was never a mage or showed magical abilities.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by pessimistpanda on Aug 11, 2018 6:36:59 GMT
I thought seekers were ex-mages There's nothing that hints at that, is there? Well unless you assume it's literally impossible to turn a non-mage Tranquil, and I don't think that was ever explicitly stated or strongly hinted at either. It also wouldn't make much sense given that Cassandra has no idea she was made Tranquil until she reads it in the Lord Seeker's tome, and if she'd had magical powers that suddenly went from normal to much more muted, you'd think she'd have suspected. Not to mention that, as far as I've ever heard, Lambert speaks of mages as though they were a group he isn't and never was part of. Somewhere in the lore it's revealed that the effect on Mages was discovered accidentally. In the early days of the Seekers, mages joined up, only to be unable to attract the required spirit of faith, later. So no,Cassandra was never a mage.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Aug 11, 2018 6:51:36 GMT
Why not give the same opportunity to a Grey Warden warrior who wants to abandon their life to focus singlemindedly on defeating Darkspawn? Can Tranquil even fight? With their emotions destroyed (or severely stunted at least) are they capable of quickly and lethally reacting to something that wants to kill them? And if they are, why does Minaeve assert that they can't defend themselves, and how does Alexius manage to kill enough of them to create all the Oculara (functioning and failed) that we see?
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Post by Reznore on Aug 11, 2018 6:52:13 GMT
Tranquility is not supposed to be nice...it's almost like a lobotomy. Most people do not like being around tranquil either. I mean it's like chopping hands off of people who steals, sure you can do it...but most societies prefers putting people in jails, rather than having pardoned but maimed people around. Tranquil can focus. But they are crap at emotions and interpersonal relationship...so they probably aren't good doing a great number of things. A tranquil wouldn't be a good war strategist. Far too complex because there is a irrational human elements in that. They are very good at crafting though, but not sure it's worth the tranquility.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 11, 2018 7:43:29 GMT
Okay, from the morality point of view, the reason it has never been used on non-mage criminals, for example, is the fact that it is sold to the general public as a "mercy" on mages who cannot control their powers and are therefore susceptible to possession. I assume this is how they managed to justify making it effectively a punishment for rogue mages. They would argue that they have allowed their magic to "rule" them to such an extent that they can no longer control their lust for power, using forbidden magic makes you more susceptible to possession, etc. Plus of course the mages who have undertaken it voluntarily because they genuinely fear possession.
Most people are uncomfortable when in the presence of tranquil, not just other mages, and pity them for the situation they are in. The people of Adamant were happy to allow Pharamond to conduct his experiments there because they understood he was trying to find a "cure". It is quite possible that the general public would object to its use if they felt it was something forced on a mage without their permission, even if the mage had been guilty of forbidden magic. They might well say that the person should simply be executed rather than condemn them to such a fate. The Chantry and Templars have been able to use it openly because of their propaganda that it is a mercy for unfortunate mages who have been born with powers they never wanted and cannot control. Since the actual rite is conducted out of sight of the public, whilst the Templars know if it was forced on someone, most people would not and once a tranquil all the person is likely to say is that their magic was a problem or their attitude was but without the accompanying outrage and resentment, people would never guess the truth. Justinia authorised the experiments by Pharamond because she was hoping he might discover a way of denying the mage their powers without killing their emotions. This was proven not to be possible.
As for the mechanics of it. It would seem the Seeker rite came first. Unfortunately Cassandra's description of it was pretty vague. Previously she said the way the Seeker is created is for the person to empty themselves of all emotion in a religious trance, after which the faith spirit touches their mind and they get their powers. This sounds nothing like the creation of a tranquil when the person is branded on the forehead with lyrium that for some reason prevents contact with the Fade instead of enhancing it. Even this is something of a puzzle as it would seem the only instance when normal lyrium is suppressing magic and denying the use of magical powers to the mage personally. Templars use lyrium to enhance their ability to suppress magic in someone else but in some ways that is itself a form of magic. So one wonders how people discovered this use for it? It is a puzzle how lyrium can both enhance connection with the Fade and yet also deny it, can bolster magical power and yet also supress it.
According to Ameridan the effects on the mage of a failed Seeker rite was how they discovered it could be used to deny a mage their connection with the Fade. So that would suggest the mage had already "emptied themselves" of all emotion but then apparently had insufficient faith to attract a spirit to them to reverse it. Of course what Cassandra discovered in the Seeker book seemed to suggest that the person does not empty themselves but it is something done to them. Then it is not the faith of the person that attracts the spirit but presumably the faith of the people around them. After all, if you have no emotion then where is the faith? I can see it is possible when it is self imposed suppression of emotion as the result of faith but not when it is denial of emotion by mechanical means. Why does a non-mage person being restored from being tranquil by a faith spirit suddenly give them the powers that Seekers possess, which to be honest very closely mimic those of a blood mage in many respects, for example setting the blood aflame in a victim. Why does being restored prevent their possession by demons or control by blood mages when a restored mage is just as much at risk as before? Or did Lambert know that in fact Pharamond was now effectively a mage Seeker and that is why he insisted on him being made tranquil again, before people discovered the truth?
So what probably seemed like an interesting plot twist to the writers doesn't make a lot of sense when you think about it. To my mind the Seeker Rite and the Rite of Tranquility work in entirely different ways.
I would also add that the Qun do effectively use something like tranquillity to control both mages and non-mages. It is known a qamek. Once administered the person becomes a mindless drone who will then be able to continue to be used productively in the service of the Qun without any danger of rebellion (or possession). Whilst mages born within the Qun are strictly controlled but left with their minds whole, mages born outside the Qun and captured by them are automatically administered with qamek.
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Post by Catilina on Aug 11, 2018 12:42:27 GMT
Okay, from the morality point of view, the reason it has never been used on non-mage criminals, for example, is the fact that it is sold to the general public as a "mercy" on mages who cannot control their powers and are therefore susceptible to possession. I assume this is how they managed to justify making it effectively a punishment for rogue mages. They would argue that they have allowed their magic to "rule" them to such an extent that they can no longer control their lust for power, using forbidden magic makes you more susceptible to possession, etc. Plus of course the mages who have undertaken it voluntarily because they genuinely fear possession.
Most people are uncomfortable when in the presence of tranquil, not just other mages, and pity them for the situation they are in. The people of Adamant were happy to allow Pharamond to conduct his experiments there because they understood he was trying to find a "cure". It is quite possible that the general public would object to its use if they felt it was something forced on a mage without their permission, even if the mage had been guilty of forbidden magic. They might well say that the person should simply be executed rather than condemn them to such a fate. The Chantry and Templars have been able to use it openly because of their propaganda that it is a mercy for unfortunate mages who have been born with powers they never wanted and cannot control. Since the actual rite is conducted out of sight of the public, whilst the Templars know if it was forced on someone, most people would not and once a tranquil all the person is likely to say is that their magic was a problem or their attitude was but without the accompanying outrage and resentment, people would never guess the truth. Justinia authorised the experiments by Pharamond because she was hoping he might discover a way of denying the mage their powers without killing their emotions. This was proven not to be possible.
As for the mechanics of it. It would seem the Seeker rite came first. Unfortunately Cassandra's description of it was pretty vague. Previously she said the way the Seeker is created is for the person to empty themselves of all emotion in a religious trance, after which the faith spirit touches their mind and they get their powers. This sounds nothing like the creation of a tranquil when the person is branded on the forehead with lyrium that for some reason prevents contact with the Fade instead of enhancing it. Even this is something of a puzzle as it would seem the only instance when normal lyrium is suppressing magic and denying the use of magical powers to the mage personally. Templars use lyrium to enhance their ability to suppress magic in someone else but in some ways that is itself a form of magic. So one wonders how people discovered this use for it? It is a puzzle how lyrium can both enhance connection with the Fade and yet also deny it, can bolster magical power and yet also supress it.
According to Ameridan the effects on the mage of a failed Seeker rite was how they discovered it could be used to deny a mage their connection with the Fade. So that would suggest the mage had already "emptied themselves" of all emotion but then apparently had insufficient faith to attract a spirit to them to reverse it. Of course what Cassandra discovered in the Seeker book seemed to suggest that the person does not empty themselves but it is something done to them. Then it is not the faith of the person that attracts the spirit but presumably the faith of the people around them. After all, if you have no emotion then where is the faith? I can see it is possible when it is self imposed suppression of emotion as the result of faith but not when it is denial of emotion by mechanical means. Why does a non-mage person being restored from being tranquil by a faith spirit suddenly give them the powers that Seekers possess, which to be honest very closely mimic those of a blood mage in many respects, for example setting the blood aflame in a victim. Why does being restored prevent their possession by demons or control by blood mages when a restored mage is just as much at risk as before? Or did Lambert know that in fact Pharamond was now effectively a mage Seeker and that is why he insisted on him being made tranquil again, before people discovered the truth?
So what probably seemed like an interesting plot twist to the writers doesn't make a lot of sense when you think about it. To my mind the Seeker Rite and the Rite of Tranquility work in entirely different ways.
I would also add that the Qun do effectively use something like tranquillity to control both mages and non-mages. It is known a qamek. Once administered the person becomes a mindless drone who will then be able to continue to be used productively in the service of the Qun without any danger of rebellion (or possession). Whilst mages born within the Qun are strictly controlled but left with their minds whole, mages born outside the Qun and captured by them are automatically administered with qamek. I don't think, it's entirely different way, only that the way was branched at a point. And we still don't know, what is the Seeker ritual exactly. It's still vague. And I don't even think, that the Tranquils would just pure profit in the work. Now I don't speak about what motivated people, who don't feel motivation (it's an emotion), they can be like a machine... and this is dangerous. We saw it in Pharamond's case – and Maddox's case. They're focused on one problem and concentrate only to the solution – without any hesitation about the danger and the moral. Just only one thing exists the goal, no matter the cost. They need a logic reason – and they just work on their task. I'm not sure, that Pharamond as the mage would take the risk of the possession – but as a Tranquil, he saw the solution (a Fade-Spirit's presence), so, he found the way to achieve it. Or Maddox. I'm also not sure, he would able to work for Samson in his mad plan, if he would grateful as a mage. Of course, this isn't excluded, but still: I'm not sure. A Tranquil not harmless – only their danger manifests in another way. And if they able to fight – I'm not sure, anyone would want to see that.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 11, 2018 13:23:56 GMT
And if they able to fight – I'm not sure, anyone would want to see that. You know this occurred to me too. Mages tend not to be trained in martial combat that doesn't involve magic, so when they are made tranquil they do seem to be more easily directed in non-combat roles. However, if a non-mage fighter was made tranquil, surely they would have the same single minded drive and lack of emotion, which would preclude any sympathy for their opponent. This would make them a truly terrifying foe.
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Post by Catilina on Aug 11, 2018 13:34:37 GMT
And if they able to fight – I'm not sure, anyone would want to see that. You know this occurred to me too. Mages tend not to be trained in martial combat that doesn't involve magic, so when they are made tranquil they do seem to be more easily directed in non-combat roles. However, if a non-mage fighter was made tranquil, surely they would have the same single minded drive and lack of emotion, which would preclude any sympathy for their opponent. This would make them a truly terrifying foe. And I'm afraid not only for the "enemy" – but the "obstacles" too.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 11, 2018 14:03:36 GMT
And I'm afraid not only for the "enemy" – but the "obstacles" too. I agree. Friendly fire and innocent victims seem a distinct possibility.
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Post by xerrai on Aug 11, 2018 18:28:34 GMT
Well according to Cassandra, she was made tranquil ("I was made tranquil, and did not even know it"), which confirms that it is part of the Seeker ritual. And given that most Seekers were non-mages before this ritual, that would mean that tranquility does work on people who do not have magical ability, even if only temporarily. So I think it is safe to say that unless there is some element we are not aware of, a non-mage being put into a permanently tranquil state is possible.
But the tranquility Cassandra describes is unusual...the way she describes the tranquility attained in her vigil sounds more like a voluntarily induced mental state by meditation instead of the forced mechanical application we typically associate with the Circle's tranquility method.
But we also know a mage failing to complete the Seeker ritual is what allowed tranquility as we know it to be discovered in the first place, so there is obviously a connection between the Seeker Rite and the Circle Rite. But given that the Circle uses lyrium bands it seems that lyrium is the main contributor to tranquility, not a meditative vigil. And given that we already know lyrium can be used to induce a trance (as we see in the Harrowing ritual) that makes sense.
But perhaps there is something else that we are missing? Some sort of spell, or ritual circle that is used in both the Seeker Rite and the Circle one?
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Post by Lazarillo on Aug 11, 2018 18:59:15 GMT
Cassandra does not have the sunburst on her forehead like other Tranquil. Neither did Lucius or any of the other Seekers (and I'm sure it would've been mentioned in Asunder if they did). It is very likely that the ritual used for Tranquility is not the same thing as the thing the Circle uses. The Rite was designed centuries ago: It is likely not the same procedure as it was when it was first developed, all things change over time. The lore of the Seekers may not explain how the rite is performed. I thought the physical branding was separate from the one used to inflict Tranquility. It was never used in Origins, at least, or was that another "just pretend all the non-Sten Qunari have horns" thing? And if they are, why does Minaeve assert that they can't defend themselves, and how does Alexius manage to kill enough of them to create all the Oculara (functioning and failed) that we see? I'm not sure it's that they can't fight, as much as they don't have an innate sense of self-preservation. Basically, if you try to kill one, they won't fight back, but if you were to compel to commit an act of violence, they'd still do so to the best of their ability, like with Maddox in Samson's quest. Even taking out the combat aspect, though, Minaeve also mentions Tranquil can focus on their work like no one else can, and even outside of military life, I could see some people accepting Tranquility as a fair tradeoff to master their craft. Okay, from the morality point of view, the reason it has never been used on non-mage criminals, for example, is the fact that it is sold to the general public as a "mercy" on mages who cannot control their powers and are therefore susceptible to possession. I assume this is how they managed to justify making it effectively a punishment for rogue mages. Hmm, the idea that it would be harder to sell conveniently as an "easy out" for Mage problems, I guess, could give some justification for why it isn't therefore used in other places. Yeah, it's similar, but different, I think, based on how its described. Tranquility explicitly retains the mind, while sacrificing the "heart", if you will. It's very different from a lobotomy, as Reznore suggested. The Tranquil remember their lives before, still have all the same knowledge and ability they had before (sans magic). But Qamek, according to Bull, IIRC, leaves the person pretty much empty mentally. They can perform menial tasks, but their IQ reduced to an animal state as well. Nothing about the individual or the individual's mind remains.
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Post by thats1evildude on Aug 11, 2018 19:22:40 GMT
I thought the physical branding was separate from the one used to inflict Tranquility. It was never used in Origins, at least, or was that another "just pretend all the non-Sten Qunari have horns" thing? The Tranquil in Origins were SUPPOSED to have the brand on their foreheads, but like qunari horns, the devs couldn't make it work. But it's now the standard as of DA2.
As to why Tranquility isn't more widely-used, it's because the Seekers and the Circle of Magi have restricted that knowledge from the general public.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 11, 2018 19:25:31 GMT
Cassandra does not have the sunburst on her forehead like other Tranquil. Neither did Lucius or any of the other Seekers (and I'm sure it would've been mentioned in Asunder if they did). It is very likely that the ritual used for Tranquility is not the same thing as the thing the Circle uses. The Rite was designed centuries ago: It is likely not the same procedure as it was when it was first developed, all things change over time. The lore of the Seekers may not explain how the rite is performed. I thought the physical branding was separate from the one used to inflict Tranquility. It was never used in Origins, at least, or was that another "just pretend all the non-Sten Qunari have horns" thing? From the wiki: The Tranquil in Dragon Age: Origins were supposed to bear the sunburst, but the developers were not able to put it in.[6]
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Post by themikefest on Aug 11, 2018 20:07:07 GMT
Though I have to say: Putting the rite of Tranquility on Celene would be hilarious. What would be hilarious is putting Anders through the rite of tranquility and then have him wear a templar outfit.
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Post by shechinah on Aug 11, 2018 21:13:37 GMT
What would ne hilarious is putting Anders through the rite of tranquility and then have him wear a templar outfit. Well, you can do half of that; the Templar outfit in Dragon Age 2 has a light version that can be worn by mages
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 11, 2018 21:15:13 GMT
What would ne hilarious is putting Anders through the rite of tranquility and then have him wear a templar outfit. Well, you can do half of that; the Templar outfit in Dragon Age 2 has a light version that can be worn by mages You can’t equip armor on companions in DA2.
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Post by boxofscreaming on Aug 11, 2018 21:47:49 GMT
Because they know it's too awful to do to a normal person - a fate worse than death. But you can justify any measures against "those people" in the name of Andraste and the greater good.
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