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Post by Phantom on Feb 6, 2019 1:22:56 GMT
It's a fact that we execute people who engage in genocide. Shepard did it in the only way possible. It's sad that some others suffered for it (assuming you care about the geth - you might not) but there was no way around it. So if it is a fact we execute people who engage in genocide, and Shepard engages in genocide of all synthetic life in the galaxy in order to exterminate the Reapers, then by your logic Shepard should be executed. well do you consider the Geth alive? if so, does the rest of the galaxy lives matter? "Stand in the ashes of a trillion dead souls and ask the ghosts if honor matters. The silence is your answer" Javik
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 6, 2019 1:35:15 GMT
So if it is a fact we execute people who engage in genocide, and Shepard engages in genocide of all synthetic life in the galaxy in order to exterminate the Reapers, then by your logic Shepard should be executed. well do you consider the Geth alive? if so, does the rest of the galaxy lives matter? "Stand in the ashes of a trillion dead souls and ask the ghosts if honor matters. The silence is your answer" Javik I do consider them alive, yes. Also I'm not going to take advice from Javik. He's been repeatably proven wrong.
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Post by Phantom on Feb 6, 2019 1:51:12 GMT
well do you consider the Geth alive? if so, does the rest of the galaxy lives matter? "Stand in the ashes of a trillion dead souls and ask the ghosts if honor matters. The silence is your answer" Javik I do consider them alive, yes. Also I'm not going to take advice from Javik. He's been repeatably proven wrong. well my point being is that is the rest of the galaxy worth 1 species. What about Asari, Turians, Salarians, Quarians, Humans, Krogans and other countless tooth and nail for survival in the war against the Reapers. Are they worth less then the Geth in which you consider to be alive?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 6, 2019 2:30:50 GMT
I do consider them alive, yes. Also I'm not going to take advice from Javik. He's been repeatably proven wrong. well my point being is that is the rest of the galaxy worth 1 species. What about Asari, Turians, Salarians, Quarians, Humans, Krogans and other countless tooth and nail for survival in the war against the Reapers. Are they worth less then the Geth in which you consider to be alive? That has nothing to do with my post though, does it? dmc said that anyone who commits genocide should be executed, so I pointed out that under their argument Shepard should be executed since they too committed genocide. As for your post though, last I checked the only ending where those races can die(well, other than the krogan since they can die later depending on earlier choices) is Refuse and I don't pick that choice.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2019 3:06:48 GMT
I took dmc's comment a bit differently.
I took it as him saying it is a fact that we execute those guilty of genocide. But Shepard had no choice and depending on if you thought of the Geth as living beings or not, it could be sad, regrettable, but necessary to stop the Reapers, who were guilty of genocide, literally on a galactic scale.
So I don't think his logic demands the execution of Shepard … since Shepard was sacrificing the few (the Geth) for the many (all the rest of the races in the MW galaxy).
OBTW, I cheated … I used the MEHEM and the Geth survived … along with the other MW races (except maybe the Batarians … don't know if there are enough of them for a viable reconstitution of their population or not … depends on how well Balak does with the fleet).
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 6, 2019 3:15:45 GMT
I took dmc's comment a bit differently.
I took it as him saying it is a fact that we execute those guilty of genocide. But Shepard had no choice and depending on if you thought of the Geth as living beings or not, it could be sad, regrettable, but necessary to stop the Reapers, who were guilty of genocide, literally on a galactic scale.
So I don't think his logic demands the execution of Shepard … since Shepard was sacrificing the few (the Geth) for the many (all the rest of the races in the MW galaxy).
OBTW, I cheated … I used the MEHEM and the Geth survived … along with the other MW races (except maybe the Batarians … don't know if there are enough of the for a viable reconstitution of their population or not … depends on how well Balak does with the fleet). Last I checked there are two other options, so yes Shepard had a choice. They chose genocide as a means to exterminate the Reapers, so that logic applies. I’m not surprised at the hypocrisy though. Real life is full of people condoning their side committing atrocities against the other side. Just look at the war that was an inspiration for this game: WW2. People go on and on about how the Axis were evil for committing atrocities yet the atrocities the Allies committed are swept under the rug or even applauded.
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Post by themikefest on Feb 6, 2019 3:28:32 GMT
Last I checked there are two other options, so yes Shepard had a choice. They chose genocide as a means to exterminate the Reapers, so that logic applies. And you know what? Both have the reapers still around. That's a no-go. So what you're saying is everyone should get peace between the geth and quarians, right? Give me one good reason why my Shepard should let the geth upload the reaper code? My Shepard chooses the quarians so they can finish the job they started before the reapers interfered.
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Post by ahglock on Feb 6, 2019 5:59:45 GMT
I took dmc's comment a bit differently.
I took it as him saying it is a fact that we execute those guilty of genocide. But Shepard had no choice and depending on if you thought of the Geth as living beings or not, it could be sad, regrettable, but necessary to stop the Reapers, who were guilty of genocide, literally on a galactic scale.
So I don't think his logic demands the execution of Shepard … since Shepard was sacrificing the few (the Geth) for the many (all the rest of the races in the MW galaxy).
OBTW, I cheated … I used the MEHEM and the Geth survived … along with the other MW races (except maybe the Batarians … don't know if there are enough of the for a viable reconstitution of their population or not … depends on how well Balak does with the fleet). Last I checked there are two other options, so yes Shepard had a choice. They chose genocide as a means to exterminate the Reapers, so that logic applies. I’m not surprised at the hypocrisy though. Real life is full of people condoning their side committing atrocities against the other side. Just look at the war that was an inspiration for this game: WW2. People go on and on about how the Axis were evil for committing atrocities yet the atrocities the Allies committed are swept under the rug or even applauded. That only works if you consider either other option as a way too save more lives. Control how does magically making Shepard all powerful and most likely indoctrinated save lives, synthesis why would that stop anything hey everyone is a cyborg, great why do the reapers stop eating you in order to reproduce, why do you stop trying to kill the reapers who just murdered billions. Synthesis only makes sense as a peaceful end if everyone basically gets indoctrinated which is basically dead. I'm sure using nazi analogies will convert people to your side though.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 6, 2019 6:15:05 GMT
Last I checked there are two other options, so yes Shepard had a choice. They chose genocide as a means to exterminate the Reapers, so that logic applies. I’m not surprised at the hypocrisy though. Real life is full of people condoning their side committing atrocities against the other side. Just look at the war that was an inspiration for this game: WW2. People go on and on about how the Axis were evil for committing atrocities yet the atrocities the Allies committed are swept under the rug or even applauded. That only works if you consider either other option as a way too save more lives. Control how does magically making Shepard all powerful and most likely indoctrinated save lives, synthesis why would that stop anything hey everyone is a cyborg, great why do the reapers stop eating you in order to reproduce, why do you stop trying to kill the reapers who just murdered billions. Synthesis only makes sense as a peaceful end if everyone basically gets indoctrinated which is basically dead. I'm sure using nazi analogies will convert people to your side though. How does listening to the being who controls the Reapers about damaging the device that was designed to kill it make any sense either? All the endings are ridiculous in that respect. I don’t get your point on the last sentence. Are you saying I’m comparing people who chose Destroy to them? If so that’s nonsense since in this analogy the Reapers would be that.
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Post by Blast Processor on Feb 6, 2019 6:36:08 GMT
Control is basically slavery and Synthesis is some serious eugenics type shit, not much of an improvement there. But anyway a heated slavery vs genocide discussion. That would be totally BSN.
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Post by HYR on Feb 6, 2019 6:53:44 GMT
I am opposed to capital punishment categorically, yet regardless, we do not in fact execute people for crimes when they were not in control of themselves (which the Reapers are not).
I'm not judging people who don't pick Blue/Green because there are plenty of rational reasons to choose Red. That said, Destroyers should not be throwing stones out of their glass house. I can also ridicule and reduce their ending to a caricature.
And I will, because that's evidently the game we're playing: some Destroyers (#NotAll) are clearly hellbent on acting out the violent power-fantasy that they were expecting the game to provide them and will deny facts clearly laid out by the ending that's not satisfying/convenient to their mission!!
How do you like THEM apples??
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Post by maximusarael020 on Feb 6, 2019 7:07:36 GMT
Last I checked there are two other options, so yes Shepard had a choice. They chose genocide as a means to exterminate the Reapers, so that logic applies. I’m not surprised at the hypocrisy though. Real life is full of people condoning their side committing atrocities against the other side. Just look at the war that was an inspiration for this game: WW2. People go on and on about how the Axis were evil for committing atrocities yet the atrocities the Allies committed are swept under the rug or even applauded. That only works if you consider either other option as a way too save more lives. Control how does magically making Shepard all powerful and most likely indoctrinated save lives, synthesis why would that stop anything hey everyone is a cyborg, great why do the reapers stop eating you in order to reproduce, why do you stop trying to kill the reapers who just murdered billions. Synthesis only makes sense as a peaceful end if everyone basically gets indoctrinated which is basically dead. I'm sure using nazi analogies will convert people to your side though. Well, I think your assumption that Shep is indicated in the "control" ending would need more proof. Otherwise it's just a baseless assumption to disregard that option. If we disregard that assumption, Shep is free of the programming that drives the Reapers, controls their actions, and thus stops the genocide they are perpetrating. Synthesis stops the Reapers from the continued genocide because it alleviates the required trigger for their programming. They no longer (according to the Star Child) would need to stop the inevitable conflict between organics and synthetics as there are none after the change. Only something new. Therefore the Reapers have no further purpose, no need to reproduce, etc. The species stop trying to kill the Reapers because the Reapers stop killing anyone. They might go back to Darkspace, simply shut down, whatever. No reason to spend resources trying to destroy them if they leave. Plus the "destroying them" wasn't going super well anyway, so I'm guessing most would be happy for the reprieve.
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Post by KaiserShep on Feb 6, 2019 12:35:40 GMT
I took dmc's comment a bit differently.
I took it as him saying it is a fact that we execute those guilty of genocide. But Shepard had no choice and depending on if you thought of the Geth as living beings or not, it could be sad, regrettable, but necessary to stop the Reapers, who were guilty of genocide, literally on a galactic scale.
So I don't think his logic demands the execution of Shepard … since Shepard was sacrificing the few (the Geth) for the many (all the rest of the races in the MW galaxy).
OBTW, I cheated … I used the MEHEM and the Geth survived … along with the other MW races (except maybe the Batarians … don't know if there are enough of them for a viable reconstitution of their population or not … depends on how well Balak does with the fleet).
Really, even if there was video evidence of Shepard pushing a button that said "Kill All Synthetics" on it and they all disappeared, s/he'd still probably get away with it in any court throughout the galaxy, and this is assuming anyone would even have the audacity to start the process towards an actual trial. Up until this point, the geth have been little more than an enemy combatant whose rights to exist were acknowledged by no one, and in fact have been witnessed primarily to be aiding the enemy anyway. No one but a handful of people knew who Legion was, and the Quarians, given their history up until this point, are not going to push to have the person who literally pulled their asses out of the fire put on trial for any kind of war crimes. In the face of some existential threat such as the Reapers, no one truly gives a shit about the Geth.
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Post by Ieldra on Feb 6, 2019 13:12:19 GMT
Fascinating, how a thread set up to collect people's wishes for future ME games ended up discussing ME3's endings....again. If anything, this proves how thoroughly ME3's ending poisoned the atmosphere with regard to future ME.
It certainly has something to do with my position on the matter: I think it would be best if ME simply ended. It should've ended with ME3, really. Regardless of whether you liked its endings, they were as definitive and final as a story can make them. Anything written after that would be a different world.
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Post by KaiserShep on Feb 6, 2019 13:42:45 GMT
Fascinating, how a thread set up to collect people's wishes for future ME games ended up discussing ME3's endings....again. If anything, this proves how thoroughly ME3's ending poisoned the atmosphere with regard to future ME. It certainly has something to do with my position on the matter: I think it would be best if ME simply ended. It should've ended with ME3, really. Regardless of whether you liked its endings, they were as definitive and final as a story can make them. Anything written after that would be a different world. It's true. The endings left an indelible mark on the franchise that not even a full-on retcon could ever undo. I came to terms with Mass Effect being over with 3. Even though I really enjoyed Andromeda, it's clear that the Milky Way as a setting is over and done with. I still have hopes for Dragon Age, however. I realllllly hope they don't scorch the setting there.
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Post by Ieldra on Feb 6, 2019 13:55:52 GMT
Fascinating, how a thread set up to collect people's wishes for future ME games ended up discussing ME3's endings....again. If anything, this proves how thoroughly ME3's ending poisoned the atmosphere with regard to future ME. It certainly has something to do with my position on the matter: I think it would be best if ME simply ended. It should've ended with ME3, really. Regardless of whether you liked its endings, they were as definitive and final as a story can make them. Anything written after that would be a different world. It's true. The endings left an indelible mark on the franchise that not even a full-on retcon could ever undo. I came to terms with Mass Effect being over with 3. Even though I really enjoyed Andromeda, it's clear that the Milky Way as a setting is over and done with. I still have hopes for Dragon Age, however. I realllllly hope they don't scorch the setting there. I imagine a conversation between Bioware devs:
dev 1: (Presents their vision for DA's final ending)
dev 2: This...looks and feels altogether too much like the ending of ME3. Do you really think this is a good idea?
dev 1: This time, we'll do it right.
dev 2: (sarcastically) You mean, as in "this time *really* nobody will want to use this setting after you're done with it?"
dev 1: Trust me. It's gone through focus testing.
dev 2: And how much good did that do you the last time?
dev 1: (sighs) See, this is why it was made in a closet last time.
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Post by themikefest on Feb 6, 2019 15:58:29 GMT
It's true. The endings left an indelible mark on the franchise that not even a full-on retcon could ever undo. I came to terms with Mass Effect being over with 3. Even though I really enjoyed Andromeda, it's clear that the Milky Way as a setting is over and done with. I've posted many times before that Bioware could, if they choose to, have a game take place after the events of ME3 with what the guy told the kid saying that the details have changed over time. Yes I know there will be people upset if Bioware were to go that route. I don't see that happening. I can see the next da game doing very well.
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Post by ahglock on Feb 6, 2019 16:48:39 GMT
That only works if you consider either other option as a way too save more lives. Control how does magically making Shepard all powerful and most likely indoctrinated save lives, synthesis why would that stop anything hey everyone is a cyborg, great why do the reapers stop eating you in order to reproduce, why do you stop trying to kill the reapers who just murdered billions. Synthesis only makes sense as a peaceful end if everyone basically gets indoctrinated which is basically dead. I'm sure using nazi analogies will convert people to your side though. How does listening to the being who controls the Reapers about damaging the device that was designed to kill it make any sense either? All the endings are ridiculous in that respect. I don’t get your point on the last sentence. Are you saying I’m comparing people who chose Destroy to them? If so that’s nonsense since in this analogy the Reapers would be that. Sure everything it says could be a lie. But given the information it gives you only one of them actually solved the reaper issue. Synthesis and control only solve the issue if you add a ton of assumptions. With control That Shepard is somehow immune to the corruption of becoming all powerful, that being in close with a reaper in fact becoming one for some reason this time instead of every other time you interact with reaper tech doesn’t warp his mind. Synthesis even if reapers no longer feel the need to destroy the whole galaxy their reproduction happens through the death of billions so unless they also give up on reproduction they will kill billions, it assumes people give up on wanting to kill/fight the creatures that just murdered billions, that the billions that have been turned into husks are sane and not killing billions more, that indoctrination ends despite how it acts every other time you interact with reapers. So basically with the information it gives you the only option that actually most likely(assuming you believe it) ends the reaper threat is destroy. The other twos are maybes. Rolling with a maybe it will work out in order to avoid killing the geth is a viable choice. But not going with it doesn’t make you a hypocrite or living out power fantasies like the other insult thrower went with.
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Post by dmc1001 on Feb 6, 2019 16:58:28 GMT
It's a fact that we execute people who engage in genocide. Shepard did it in the only way possible. It's sad that some others suffered for it (assuming you care about the geth - you might not) but there was no way around it. So if it is a fact we execute people who engage in genocide, and Shepard engages in genocide of all synthetic life in the galaxy in order to exterminate the Reapers, then by your logic Shepard should be executed. So your plan is to leave them in place to potentially engage in genocide anyway but for different reasons? Awesome.
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Post by dmc1001 on Feb 6, 2019 17:01:17 GMT
I took dmc's comment a bit differently.
I took it as him saying it is a fact that we execute those guilty of genocide. But Shepard had no choice and depending on if you thought of the Geth as living beings or not, it could be sad, regrettable, but necessary to stop the Reapers, who were guilty of genocide, literally on a galactic scale.
So I don't think his logic demands the execution of Shepard … since Shepard was sacrificing the few (the Geth) for the many (all the rest of the races in the MW galaxy).
OBTW, I cheated … I used the MEHEM and the Geth survived … along with the other MW races (except maybe the Batarians … don't know if there are enough of the for a viable reconstitution of their population or not … depends on how well Balak does with the fleet). Last I checked there are two other options, so yes Shepard had a choice. They chose genocide as a means to exterminate the Reapers, so that logic applies. I’m not surprised at the hypocrisy though. Real life is full of people condoning their side committing atrocities against the other side. Just look at the war that was an inspiration for this game: WW2. People go on and on about how the Axis were evil for committing atrocities yet the atrocities the Allies committed are swept under the rug or even applauded. It's not hypocrisy. For you, beings more powerful than anything else are still around. They may not be engaged in synthetic/organic war but you're delusional if you think they might not have other reasons to go to war. And I promise you those synthesized beings around the galaxy are going to remember what the Reapers did. There will be war with them. And we'll be decimated. As I said, great plan.
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Post by ahglock on Feb 6, 2019 17:29:25 GMT
Last I checked there are two other options, so yes Shepard had a choice. They chose genocide as a means to exterminate the Reapers, so that logic applies. I’m not surprised at the hypocrisy though. Real life is full of people condoning their side committing atrocities against the other side. Just look at the war that was an inspiration for this game: WW2. People go on and on about how the Axis were evil for committing atrocities yet the atrocities the Allies committed are swept under the rug or even applauded. It's not hypocrisy. For you, beings more powerful than anything else are still around. They may not be engaged in synthetic/organic war but you're delusional if you think they might not have other reasons to go to war. And I promise you those synthesized beings around the galaxy are going to remember what the Reapers did. There will be war with them. And we'll be decimated. As I said, great plan. I think that is one of my issues. The entire story point is that an AI uses broken logic to murder everyone in the galaxy repeatedly. For some reason if you pick synthesis or control it won’t come up with another reason to get into another broken logic chain and murder everyone again something like long lived species can’t coexist with short-lived species. It doesn’t really matter it clearly has a broken logic and it’s answer is murder everyone
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 6, 2019 17:59:09 GMT
So if it is a fact we execute people who engage in genocide, and Shepard engages in genocide of all synthetic life in the galaxy in order to exterminate the Reapers, then by your logic Shepard should be executed. So your plan is to leave them in place to potentially engage in genocide anyway but for different reasons? Awesome. You didn’t answer my post. Do you agree that under your own logic that Shepard should be executed if the picked Destroy because they engaged in genocide? That is a yes or no answer.
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Post by KaiserShep on Feb 6, 2019 18:13:45 GMT
Wiping out the last rachni in existence got a pass from the Council. Legal precedence would dictate that wiping out synthetics in order to save the galaxy would get a similar pass lol
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Post by themikefest on Feb 6, 2019 18:57:26 GMT
So your plan is to leave them in place to potentially engage in genocide anyway but for different reasons? Awesome. You didn’t answer my post. Do you agree that under your own logic that Shepard should be executed if the picked Destroy because they engaged in genocide? That is a yes or no answer. No because there is no genocide when destroy is chosen.
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dmc1001
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Biotic Booty
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: ferroboy
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by dmc1001 on Feb 6, 2019 18:58:32 GMT
So your plan is to leave them in place to potentially engage in genocide anyway but for different reasons? Awesome. You didn’t answer my post. Do you agree that under your own logic that Shepard should be executed if the picked Destroy because they engaged in genocide? That is a yes or no answer. It's a no. A big no. Shepard dealt with the Reapers in the absolute only way possible that didn't leave a still-credible threat around.
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