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Vive la révolution mages!
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Post by Cantina on Oct 16, 2016 21:17:33 GMT
(Blinks)
(Sighs and shakes head)
Whether or not Cory's actions can or cannot be explain my opinions remain as such because the point was: Corry was a poorly written villain. If thee actions of an enemy have to be explained, argued, guessed or what-have-you; then the perception of Cory being this all powerful magister darkspawns were nothing but a poor attempt to create a powerful villain and only to have them come off as totally and utterly lame.
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Post by thats1evildude on Oct 16, 2016 21:22:05 GMT
The codex on the Arbor Wilds is misleading. It says it was the Tevinter Imperium but the letter from the Magister leading the expedition mentions the Dalish. Clearly this could not have been the original Imperium that Corypheus was a part of as there was no such thing as the Dalish in their time. Modern Tevinter still thinks of itself as the Imperium even though it is a fraction of its size at its height. So apparently, some time after the Dalish were defeated, a Magister led an expedition into the Arbor Wilds. Clearly this would not have been with a sizeable force since that would have antagonised Orlais. Hence them being wiped out by the sentinels.. Don't get too tripped up on the Dalish part. Elves have occupied the Dales for a long time. Note that the codex references the Dalish going to war over a broken wall. That doesn't correspond with any recent history, so it must have been a very early incident. It very well could have been in the days of ancient Tevinter. Note also that the codex references stonework from Arlathan, the location of which has been lost for ages. And, as you point out, Orlais would never tolerate a large Tevinter force in their borders. All this suggests the letter to Magister Cruxis is very, very old.
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Post by Prince on Oct 16, 2016 22:18:26 GMT
The magical workaround he created would not have been able to force the whispers of the well of sorrow to speak to him because they are directed by Mythal,even an Inquisitor or Morrigan who drink from the well are not able to command the voices within their heads.Flemeth said in a dialogue that was her who controlled the whispers. But Corypheus' spell obviously did work, or else you would not get an epilogue screen if you die in the Arbor Wilds. I'll note that if you bring Dorian to Corypheus' temple, he says the spell holding Erasthenes and compelling him to answer questions is strong enough to bind a dozen pride demons. And that was just a trial run for the spell he planned to use on Calpernia/Samson. So it was obviously strong enough to compel the Vessel to do what whatever he commanded. Maybe I wasn't clear enough.It is not a matter that concern the vessel because the vessel has no control over the voices of the well,Corypheus may torture them as much as he want but he cannot gain answers because the voices are controlled by Mythal,they speak only at her command.Those are all banters unlocked at the altar of Mythal where Flemeth said that she was the one behind the voices.
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Post by thats1evildude on Oct 16, 2016 23:44:10 GMT
I'm sorry, I don't follow. Are you implying Flemeth would want Corypheus to win? If that were the case, why help the Inquisitor later?
Either Corypheus' spell works and the Vessel MUST answer his questions, or Flemeth lets Corypheus win even though she wants him to lose. Since that's rather nonsensical, then his spell must work.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Oct 17, 2016 7:48:49 GMT
I'm sorry, I don't follow. Are you implying Flemeth would want Corypheus to win? If that were the case, why help the Inquisitor later? Either Corypheus' spell works and the Vessel MUST answer his questions, or Flemeth lets Corypheus win even though she wants him to lose. Since that's rather nonsensical, then his spell must work. I think the point is that Corpheus can't use the Well's power at all. And to be fair he has a good argument that Cory shouldn't be able to, even if his main point doesn't seem to work judging by that game over screen you posted. (Blinks)
(Sighs and shakes head)
Whether or not Cory's actions can or cannot be explain my opinions remain as such because the point was: Corry was a poorly written villain. If thee actions of an enemy have to be explained, argued, guessed or what-have-you; then the perception of Cory being this all powerful magister darkspawns were nothing but a poor attempt to create a powerful villain and only to have them come off as totally and utterly lame. I personally found that Corypheus trying to use political means to destabilize an enemy country made him that much scarier. A villain who can set his enemies to killing each other is much scarier than one who has to kill them himself, no matter how good he might be at the latter. That the plot was explicable in one (pretty short) paragraph, and yet seemed like it could work, was just icing on the cake. Though he lost his "thinking villain" cred when he failed to use his taint abilities to sabotage the Inquisition using the Wardens, and he lost his "scary" cred during the last bossfight, so I'm not sure I disagree that he wasn't as well written as he could have been.
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Post by Prince on Oct 17, 2016 9:32:03 GMT
I'm sorry, I don't follow. Are you implying Flemeth would want Corypheus to win? If that were the case, why help the Inquisitor later? Either Corypheus' spell works and the Vessel MUST answer his questions, or Flemeth lets Corypheus win even though she wants him to lose. Since that's rather nonsensical, then his spell must work. 4:22 As Flemeth strongly implied she and Mythal are the one in charge of the voices of the well of sorrow,the vessel can't hear them unless Mythal give her consent.It does not matter how much Corypheus torture Calpernia/Samson because they have no control whatsoever on the voices.And yes since we are on the theme of game inconsistencies the epilogue is an inconsistency and is non-canon.
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Post by Iakus on Oct 17, 2016 15:19:37 GMT
The magical workaround he created would not have been able to force the whispers of the well of sorrow to speak to him because they are directed by Mythal,even an Inquisitor or Morrigan who drink from the well are not able to command the voices within their heads.Flemeth said in a dialogue that was her who controlled the whispers. But Corypheus' spell obviously did work, or else you would not get an epilogue screen if you die in the Arbor Wilds. I'll note that if you bring Dorian to Corypheus' temple, he says the spell holding Erasthenes and compelling him to answer questions is strong enough to bind a dozen pride demons. And that was just a trial run for the spell he planned to use on Calpernia/Samson. So it was obviously strong enough to compel the Vessel to do what whatever he commanded. Just want to point out that just because Corypheus seizes the Well of Sorrows doesn't mean he can use it. In fact, the epilogue says he reopens the Breach, not that he uses the eluvian to enter the Crossroads. The endgame reopening the Breach was a final desperate gambit of his after all other options had failed. Sounds like he does the same thing if he captures the Well regardless. And as the Bad Future from In Hushed Whispers tells us, he doesn't need to become a god to leave death and destruction in his wake
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Post by Iakus on Oct 17, 2016 15:21:17 GMT
Though he lost his "thinking villain" cred when he failed to use his taint abilities to sabotage the Inquisition using the Wardens, and he lost his "scary" cred during the last bossfight, so I'm not sure I disagree that he wasn't as well written as he could have been. Didn't Legacy establish he can only control Wardens directly when he's close by? (well except for the mages that do his demon binding ritual)? The false Calling was the work of the Nightmare, and was purely illusory.
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Post by thats1evildude on Oct 17, 2016 17:32:50 GMT
I'm sorry, I don't follow. Are you implying Flemeth would want Corypheus to win? If that were the case, why help the Inquisitor later? Either Corypheus' spell works and the Vessel MUST answer his questions, or Flemeth lets Corypheus win even though she wants him to lose. Since that's rather nonsensical, then his spell must work. 4:22 As Flemeth strongly implied she and Mythal are the one in charge of the voices of the well of sorrow,the vessel can't hear them unless Mythal give her consent.It does not matter how much Corypheus torture Calpernia/Samson because they have no control whatsoever on the voices.And yes since we are on the theme of game inconsistencies the epilogue is an inconsistency and is non-canon. All that says in this one particular instance that Flemeth manipulated the voices. But they don't come solely from her: they are the collected wisdom of her followers. Case in point: the Inquisitor is able to use the knowledge of the Well of Sorrows in Trespasser, which is set two years AFTER Solas killed Flemeth. Corypheus' spell works. He forces the Vessel to give him the knowledge of the Well and enters the Fade. This is canon.
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Post by thats1evildude on Oct 17, 2016 17:34:43 GMT
Though he lost his "thinking villain" cred when he failed to use his taint abilities to sabotage the Inquisition using the Wardens, and he lost his "scary" cred during the last bossfight, so I'm not sure I disagree that he wasn't as well written as he could have been. Didn't Legacy establish he can only control Wardens directly when he's close by? (well except for the mages that do his demon binding ritual)? The false Calling was the work of the Nightmare, and was purely illusory. Even then, it's not clear how much "control" Corypheus can exact on Wardens not controlled by his spell. Larius and Janeka were being influenced by Corypheus, but he was doing so unconsciously.
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Post by thats1evildude on Oct 17, 2016 17:55:38 GMT
Corypheus' end boss fight is pretty weaksauce, though. No argument there.
I get that they didn't want to make it too hard — you have to fight a dragon in the middle of it, after all — but I fully expected to fight through a small army of demons, or even kill Corypheus a couple of times.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Oct 17, 2016 19:52:26 GMT
Corypheus' end boss fight is pretty weaksauce, though. No argument there. I get that they didn't want to make it too hard — you have to fight a dragon in the middle of it, after all — but I fully expected to fight through a small army of demons, or even kill Corypheus a couple of times. If he's going to spend half the bossfight retreating, maybe he should railgun a few rocks at you or something?
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 17, 2016 19:54:52 GMT
I think the point about him gaining the Well of Sorrows is that it prevents anyone else from discovering how to defeat him, not that it necessarily gave him the means to open another Breach. The only additional information he may have obtained from the Well was how to stay in the Fade once he opened the Breach. It was this information he was seeking since it is clear from the final battle that the orb could still enable him to open a Breach in the Veil but for some reason he can't enter the Fade and stay there. This is the only reason I can think of for him not using the orb before, because making an opening in the Veil is not enough, he wants to be able to enter the Fade.
There are a number of inconsistencies in the whole thing really. He had Erasthenes held prisoner from when he recruited Calpernia, yet surely his idea to use the Well of Sorrows was only something he devised after he failed to enter the Fade the first time? If he knew about the Well of Sorrows, why hasn't he used it in the dark future of Hushed Whispers? Why does he only go there after his other plans fail? His specific plan was not just to enter the Fade but get back to the Black City and the vacant seat of godhood (which he seems to think will give him the power of a god). The codex entry only says he entered the Fade but nothing about the Black City, so he would just be wandering around the Fade like we were in Into the Abyss. Since the Breach expands anyway until the Fade merges with the waking world, it would seem that getting the Well of Sorrows gained him nothing. Just lordship over the same bleak landscape we encountered in the dark future.
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Post by thats1evildude on Oct 17, 2016 20:14:31 GMT
Mortals cannot physically enter the Fade without strong magic protecting them. You saw what happened when you opened a rift inside him: the Fade consumed Corypheus.
As I said earlier, Corypheus knows about the Well of Sorrows but doesn't know exactly where it's located. Hence the reason he has his henchmen search elven ruins. Presumably he figures it out by the time you foil his other plans.
In the dark future of In Hushed Whispers, however, his other two main plans worked, so he focused on conquering Thedas with his army of demons. (A leaderless Orlais was unable to stop them.) At the same time, he had Alexius research a way to go back to before the Conclave so that he could prevent the Inquisitor receiving the Anchor. That was impossible, of course.
As for imprisoning Erasthenes, it's not clear when that occurred. Some time after he recruited Calpernia, obviously, but he may not have prepared the spell until AFTER the plan with the Anchor fell through. Erasthenes could just have been sitting in a cell somewhere until then.
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Post by oyabun on Oct 18, 2016 16:29:46 GMT
4:22 As Flemeth strongly implied she and Mythal are the one in charge of the voices of the well of sorrow,the vessel can't hear them unless Mythal give her consent.It does not matter how much Corypheus torture Calpernia/Samson because they have no control whatsoever on the voices.And yes since we are on the theme of game inconsistencies the epilogue is an inconsistency and is non-canon. All that says in this one particular instance that Flemeth manipulated the voices. But they don't come solely from her: they are the collected wisdom of her followers. Case in point: the Inquisitor is able to use the knowledge of the Well of Sorrows in Trespasser, which is set two years AFTER Solas killed Flemeth. Corypheus' spell works. He forces the Vessel to give him the knowledge of the Well and enters the Fade. This is canon. Case in point. The Inquisitor is not using the voices of the well in Trespasser but the voices suddendly decided to start the whispers in that specific moment. It seem to me they remained in silence for all the rest of the time and only decided to speak in that moment after two years,Mythal not being dead in Trespasser just mean that she was the one who allowed the whispers to help the Inquisitor,I don't see how Corypheus can force the voices to speak if they obey only to her.
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Post by Prince on Oct 18, 2016 16:38:45 GMT
Which was the point i was talking about earlier,the vessel(no matter who it is) not being in any way in control of the voices over Mythal,and since the owners of that knowledge(the priests of Mythal) are no longer alive they can't suffer the consequences of a physical torture.
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Post by thats1evildude on Oct 18, 2016 16:58:44 GMT
Which was the point i was talking about earlier,the vessel(no matter who it is) not being in any way in control of the voices over Mythal,and since the owners of that knowledge(the priests of Mythal) are no longer alive they can't suffer the consequences of a physical torture. The spell hurts Erasthenes regardless of how he answers. The suffering may just be a side effect of the magic, which compels the subject to answer questions truthfully.
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Post by oyabun on Oct 18, 2016 16:59:22 GMT
I don't know if COry obtained the well in the future of Redclieffe but it is possible,however even with the thing he wasn't able to do much i suspect because he did not gained any answers from it.
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Post by oyabun on Oct 18, 2016 17:07:55 GMT
Which was the point i was talking about earlier,the vessel(no matter who it is) not being in any way in control of the voices over Mythal,and since the owners of that knowledge(the priests of Mythal) are no longer alive they can't suffer the consequences of a physical torture. The spell hurts Erasthenes regardless of how he answers. The suffering may just be a side effect of the magic, which compels the subject to answer questions truthfully. You are assuming that the vessel of the well is able to gain all the knowledge of Mythal just because they used the well of sorrow but it doesn't work that way. The well is not instant knowledge but is a link that allow the vessel to hear the voices that may or may not decide to provide answers and those voices are directed by FLemeth unless you are torturing her i don't see how this plan is supposed to work. The Inquisitor did not know who the Dread wolf was despite the fact that Mythal and probably her priests knew that Solas was Fenharel since he was pretty famous in the past just as Mythal know the faces of all the Evanuris,yet none of these informations are provided to the vessel.
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Post by thats1evildude on Oct 18, 2016 19:19:55 GMT
The spell hurts Erasthenes regardless of how he answers. The suffering may just be a side effect of the magic, which compels the subject to answer questions truthfully. You are assuming that the vessel of the well is able to gain all the knowledge of Mythal just because they used the well of sorrow but it doesn't work that way. The well is not instant knowledge but is a link that allow the vessel to hear the voices that may or may not decide to provide answers and those voices are directed by FLemeth unless you are torturing her i don't see how this plan is supposed to work. As I said, the voices were directed in that one instance by Flemeth. But the Inquisitor can still access the knowledge of the Well at certain times after her death. The knowledge is THERE, but is available only when the Inquisitor needs it. But put all that aside for the moment. The game over screen I posted earlier does show Corypheus' spell works. That is immutable.
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Post by oyabun on Oct 18, 2016 19:36:22 GMT
Just because the writers wrote something it does not mean it is not incoherent,beside that game over screen pertain to a non canon timeline.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Oct 18, 2016 20:18:37 GMT
Just because the writers wrote something it does not mean it is not incoherent,beside that game over screen pertain to a non canon timeline. It would be incoherent if there was any actual proof that the voices literally could not go against Mythal's will even under the influence of Corypheus's binding spell. As it is, there's room to think that either the spell can grant knowledge without Mythal's permission (even if only because Mythal isn't there to say the voices nay,) or that Corypheus's control spell or his power over Red Lyrium could override that requirement. And why do you assume the non-canon timeline follows different rules than the real timeline?
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Post by oyabun on Oct 18, 2016 21:08:14 GMT
Just because the writers wrote something it does not mean it is not incoherent,beside that game over screen pertain to a non canon timeline. It would be incoherent if there was any actual proof that the voices literally could not go against Mythal's will even under the influence of Corypheus's binding spell. As it is, there's room to think that either the spell can grant knowledge without Mythal's permission (even if only because Mythal isn't there to say the voices nay,) or that Corypheus's control spell or his power over Red Lyrium could override that requirement. And why do you assume the non-canon timeline follows different rules than the real timeline? You don't have any proof to claim the contrary other than a non canon timeline epilogue while Flemeth was clear about the words she spoke about the control she has over the voices of the well.The non-canon timelines have no meaning(Darkspawns chronicles,death of protagonists before the end game ecc..). Corypheus binding spell can't torture people who are no longer Alive just as the Inquisitor proves the voices are not always there,they speak because they come from Mythal just as the well of sorrow who endure because Mythal exist. The voices cannot go against Mythal will,the well of sorrow is a bound to her of people who no longer exist.
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Post by thats1evildude on Oct 18, 2016 21:16:19 GMT
Yet again I'll point out the spell causes Erasthenes pain regardless of what he says. It's not necessarily a torture device, but rather a binding that prevents the subject from escaping and compels them to tell the truth.
"To Corypheus I am bound, to answer every question." Those are Erasthenes' exact words.
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Post by oyabun on Oct 18, 2016 21:25:07 GMT
Yet again I'll point out the spell causes Erasthenes pain regardless of what he says. It's not necessarily a torture device, but rather a binding that prevents the subject from escaping and compels them to tell the truth. "To Corypheus I am bound, to answer every question." Those are Erasthenes' exact words. Again you insist? Corypheus can't gain answers from Someone who does not possess them. The voices come from Mythal through the well to the vessel. If Mythal don't send the whispers the vessel doesn't gain the knowledge of the well no matter how much they are tortured or in what kind of binding they are subjugated. The well is a bound to Mythal a connection to her not just a living encyclopedy.
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