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Post by Andrew Waples on Dec 6, 2018 1:37:47 GMT
^^^ NO. Well-established industry.... Lol. The movie industry is a constant revolution of the blind leading the blind. Veterans with experience are passed over for the flavor of the day on both sides of the camera. Creative fights with technical, constantly. Avengers 4 wrapped, and we start reshoots in January. GotG2 had an operating budget of over $400 million dollars. This does not include any marketing - that's what it cost to make. Thinking there are less moving pieces in moviemaking compared to game creation is just lack of understanding of either job tbh. The volume of people involved, the logistics, the coordination - the scale of effort simply is not comparable. Game devs complain about "crunch". lmaorofl, making a movie is 6 weeks to 6 months of crunch, all day everyday. 16 hour days, 6 days in a row, come back on Monday after your 36 hour weekend smiling and ready for more. Yes, we have to squash our bugs as we find them. Or make them. Sometimes we don't find the bug until after production is complete and we thought we were ready for release; no, we will have to do 6 weeks of reshoots to fix all the fuckups we found. Thus, instead of having the luxury of "movies as a service" - where we can release a fucked up movie and patch it later and hope no one gets mad - we have to fix it or hope no one notices. Just like game devs, that hope is futile - the internet will find your flaw. I of course could not resist this argument. I know off-topic, but what do mean by "we"?
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Post by biggydx on Dec 6, 2018 1:40:27 GMT
FFXV is the first game in the series that I ever actually disliked, and the only game I've ever seen, period, that honestly deserves to be criticised as "incomplete". The planned second year of DLC has been cancelled, and the overwhelming reaction among fans is one of relief. Nobody wants more of FFXV. I did....... I wanted more Bayek from AC: Origins. Never got that sequel... You will not be forgotten
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Dec 6, 2018 1:42:23 GMT
Have you ever heard of "post-production"?
When, cell by cell, things are touched up.
Entire characters are painted off the screen. Much software, same software in some cases as game making.
Specialists made the movie. More specialists reshoot scenes of the movie. Even more specialists go through what was recorded, and touch it up some more (for better or worse).
Who makes the call? Some producer's kid often enough, fresh out of film school directing their first big movie like an absolute asshat, ignoring all of these specialists time and again. That is a different story, but true nevertheless.
There is no need to continue the argument. This is totally apples to oranges, and comparing them is a mistake.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2018 1:43:57 GMT
It's OK to discuss things. It's not OK to strawman. ^^^ NO. Well-established industry.... Lol. The movie industry is a constant revolution of the blind leading the blind. Veterans with experience are passed over for the flavor of the day on both sides of the camera. Creative fights with technical, constantly. Avengers 4 wrapped, and we start reshoots in January. GotG2 had an operating budget of over $400 million dollars. This does not include any marketing - that's what it cost to make. The fact that there are issues with the movie industry doesn't mean that it isn't well-established. Especially compared to the gaming industry. Hilariously, the insane budgets for movies serve as a proof of that. You don't spend this much money on things that aren't well-established, which also means at least somewhat certain in terms of goals or execution - this is exactly why such a big deal is made out of games with large budgets. And even the most expensive games aren't there yet compared to movies (and I gotta wonder if, with recent perturbations, we won't see budgets for games scaling down). Dude.... after all the work of those specialists is done, to the movie itself is - aside from rare outliers maybe - a series of fast-moving flat screenshots. A movie that is ready for consumption SIMPLY. DOES. NOT. HAVE. MANY. MOVING. PARTS.
That is an indisputable fact. That you strawman me into a position I didn't take or argue does not negate it. I am perfectly aware that making movies is complicated - but it is not as complicated to keep the already-made product actually working. Movies don't have to be rendered and respond to our interactions within it (we're not at that point yet, lol). They don't need gameplay. Or UI, or many other elements games have to have in order to either work or engage. Games require a lot more to simply WORK, nevermind engage player for way more hours than movies or even long TV shows.
That is a very important distinction here. You can try and compare and try and approximate fixing f-ups in movies to squashing bugs in games, but those are simply different products that are consumed differently and have different issues to deal with, hence differences between both industries - even if they share a DNA or a toolbox in terms of creating visual/cinematic content. Games are usually more than visual/cinematic content, hence 'more moving parts'.
You have a very clear lack of understand about movies. How about moving 2k+ of people across the many film locations that games don't have to worry about. I guess you forgot about that right? Gameplay?, UI?,...omg. No different from filming ANY animated movie. Engaging players is no different than engaging viewers in a movie. It all breaks down to Story telling and action. Again, the same! What about the hilariously high budgets of video games (GTA5 265 million) now-a-days? I guess those are different some how right? The only real difference here is that you're refusing to see the full scope of a movie for arguments sake. That's it!
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Dec 6, 2018 1:44:51 GMT
^^^ NO. Well-established industry.... Lol. The movie industry is a constant revolution of the blind leading the blind. Veterans with experience are passed over for the flavor of the day on both sides of the camera. Creative fights with technical, constantly. Avengers 4 wrapped, and we start reshoots in January. GotG2 had an operating budget of over $400 million dollars. This does not include any marketing - that's what it cost to make. Thinking there are less moving pieces in moviemaking compared to game creation is just lack of understanding of either job tbh. The volume of people involved, the logistics, the coordination - the scale of effort simply is not comparable. Game devs complain about "crunch". lmaorofl, making a movie is 6 weeks to 6 months of crunch, all day everyday. 16 hour days, 6 days in a row, come back on Monday after your 36 hour weekend smiling and ready for more. Yes, we have to squash our bugs as we find them. Or make them. Sometimes we don't find the bug until after production is complete and we thought we were ready for release; no, we will have to do 6 weeks of reshoots to fix all the fuckups we found. Thus, instead of having the luxury of "movies as a service" - where we can release a fucked up movie and patch it later and hope no one gets mad - we have to fix it or hope no one notices. Just like game devs, that hope is futile - the internet will find your flaw. I of course could not resist this argument. I know off-topic, but what do mean by "we"? You have asked me this before, I think. I stopped updating my IMDB years ago, but here ya go - www.imdb.com/name/nm3897098/
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Post by pessimistpanda on Dec 6, 2018 1:45:18 GMT
*brainless prattling about FFXV* ... combat (with even less strategy than FF XIII, which was a major complaint about that instalment at the time) ... Nobody wants more of FFXV. 1. FFXIII receives a ton of praise for its combat, which is considered among the best in the series because of the amount of strategic depth. It's almost like anyone whining about it just makes up whatever they want, even if anyone with a brain knows it's bullshit. 2. When someone says "nobody wants [x]", what that really means is that the person saying that is genuinely incapable of acknowledging that other people do not think exactly like him. Hey guy. I LIKE FFXIII, but it did not receive widespread praise, especially not from the fanbase. I know, because I was repeatedly flamed on multiple gaming forums, INCLUDING OG BSN, for saying I liked it. It was extremely divisive, and roundly criticised for being stripped back, too linear, lacking in side content, etc etc. It did not pull in the money that Square Enix thought it would, and their entire "Fabula Nova Crystallis" project died. They put out two limp, bland sequels that got a lukewarm reception at best, particularly overseas, and the side games (Type-0 and Versus XIII) were rebranded to remove any association with XIII.
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Post by colfoley on Dec 6, 2018 1:47:02 GMT
I'm curious: What direction are you talking about by their 'direction?' As of this writing the game hasn't been announced so we do not even know what their direction will be when it comes to a new Dragon Age. All we have to go on is assurances that it will be its own thing from Anthem and it will be familiar to what Dragon Age usually is. Ah. By their present course, I meant their intended destination that's coming up; Anthem. <--- me, no interest. Until they turn the wheel and get onto the DA4 road proper, whatever they say is a mere brush of wind. I haven't looked in the DA4 section for quite some time so this thread title tickle my curiosity. My going away reaction after reading is 'meh', whatever. I don't have to look in again until they take out a trumpet and blare; DA4 release date on such and such. Ah got it. By your OP I thought you had zero interest in DA 4 at all because of the course BioWare is on.
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Post by Andrew Waples on Dec 6, 2018 1:54:02 GMT
I know off-topic, but what do mean by "we"? You have asked me this before, I think. I stopped updating my IMDB years ago, but here ya go - www.imdb.com/name/nm3897098/If I did, I obviously forgot.
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Post by arcanistranger on Dec 6, 2018 1:56:40 GMT
I LIKE FFXIII, but it did not receive widespread praise, especially not from the fanbase. I know, because I was repeatedly flamed on multiple gaming forums, INCLUDING OG BSN, for saying I liked it. Don't confuse "unpopular" with "the people who didn't like it are complete assholes." That's an important lesson BioWare fans should also know (and their haters will never understand). Also, Type-0 is still part of the Fabula Nova Crystallis. L'Cie and other shared aspects of the lore play heavily into Type-0's plot, which tells me you know nothing about either game's plot.
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Post by smilesja on Dec 6, 2018 1:57:12 GMT
It's OK to discuss things. It's not OK to strawman. The fact that there are issues with the movie industry doesn't mean that it isn't well-established. Especially compared to the gaming industry. Hilariously, the insane budgets for movies serve as a proof of that. You don't spend this much money on things that aren't well-established, which also means at least somewhat certain in terms of goals or execution - this is exactly why such a big deal is made out of games with large budgets. And even the most expensive games aren't there yet compared to movies (and I gotta wonder if, with recent perturbations, we won't see budgets for games scaling down). Dude.... after all the work of those specialists is done, to the movie itself is - aside from rare outliers maybe - a series of fast-moving flat screenshots. A movie that is ready for consumption SIMPLY. DOES. NOT. HAVE. MANY. MOVING. PARTS.
That is an indisputable fact. That you strawman me into a position I didn't take or argue does not negate it. I am perfectly aware that making movies is complicated - but it is not as complicated to keep the already-made product actually working. Movies don't have to be rendered and respond to our interactions within it (we're not at that point yet, lol). They don't need gameplay. Or UI, or many other elements games have to have in order to either work or engage. Games require a lot more to simply WORK, nevermind engage player for way more hours than movies or even long TV shows.
That is a very important distinction here. You can try and compare and try and approximate fixing f-ups in movies to squashing bugs in games, but those are simply different products that are consumed differently and have different issues to deal with, hence differences between both industries - even if they share a DNA or a toolbox in terms of creating visual/cinematic content. Games are usually more than visual/cinematic content, hence 'more moving parts'.
You have a very clear lack of understand about movies. How about moving 2k+ of people across the many film locations that games don't have to worry about. I guess you forgot about that right? Gameplay?, UI?,...omg. No different from filming ANY animated movie. Engaging players is no different than engaging viewers in a movie. It all breaks down to Story telling and action. Again, the same! What about the hilariously high budgets of video games (GTA5 265 million) now-a-days? I guess those are different some how right? The only real difference here is that you're refusing to see the full scope of a movie for arguments sake. That's it! I think there is a huge difference between game production and movie production.
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Post by smilesja on Dec 6, 2018 1:58:28 GMT
1. FFXIII receives a ton of praise for its combat, which is considered among the best in the series because of the amount of strategic depth. It's almost like anyone whining about it just makes up whatever they want, even if anyone with a brain knows it's bullshit. 2. When someone says "nobody wants [x]", what that really means is that the person saying that is genuinely incapable of acknowledging that other people do not think exactly like him. Hey guy. I LIKE FFXIII, but it did not receive widespread praise, especially not from the fanbase. I know, because I was repeatedly flamed on multiple gaming forums, INCLUDING OG BSN, for saying I liked it. It was extremely divisive, and roundly criticised for being stripped back, too linear, lacking in side content, etc etc. It did not pull in the money that Square Enix thought it would, and their entire "Fabula Nova Crystallis" project died. They put out two limp, bland sequels that got a lukewarm reception at best, particularly overseas, and the side games (Type-0 and Versus XIII) were rebranded to remove any association with XIII. Well you did say “nobody wanted more Final Fantasy 13” and that’s an abosulte. They clearly did have an audience though not as big as Square thought.
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Post by melbella on Dec 6, 2018 2:02:38 GMT
Boredom? Not enough good games to play? So many good games are coming out, though! Anyone looking for a Bioware-esque experience while waiting should look into Assassin's Creed Odyssey. Holy crap it's good 0.0
And somehow the studio managed to get it out only a year - A YEAR - after AC Origins. But Bioware needs 7 yrs (or maybe only 6) for DA Next, to settle their cliffhanger ending. Sigh.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2018 2:02:41 GMT
You have a very clear lack of understand about movies. How about moving 2k+ of people across the many film locations that games don't have to worry about. I guess you forgot about that right? Gameplay?, UI?,...omg. No different from filming ANY animated movie. Engaging players is no different than engaging viewers in a movie. It all breaks down to Story telling and action. Again, the same! What about the hilariously high budgets of video games (GTA5 265 million) now-a-days? I guess those are different some how right? The only real difference here is that you're refusing to see the full scope of a movie for arguments sake. That's it! I think there is a huge difference between game production and movie production. Has a game ever shut down part of a city to do anything? That alone is huge logistically! Has a game ever moved thousands of people to different locations?
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Post by midnight tea on Dec 6, 2018 2:03:16 GMT
I truly hope you are trolling now because somehow I can't believe that you don't understand that there's a difference between watching a movie and playing a game. Like... you realize that there's a difference between maybe spotting some visual bugs in movies and running a game on your computer or console? You realize that the movie doesn't have to RENDER itself when you view it - that it comes to you pre-rendered and set in stone? That the movie you're consuming is just fast-moving flat screenshots that don't require an engine and whole programming architecture to run it? I can say the same to you honestly. You've only showed me games where the developer refused to fix bugs they knew were there. Take any Marvel movie where they have to integrate CGI to real motion, is that easy? You must think it is. Here's an article about Pixar films. While you're wasting time going on about Pixar or CGI-to-real motion integration the point I've been actually making is zooming miles above your head I mean really... how hard is it understand that I've pointed out bugs in order to illustrate what game developers have a much harder time avoiding when we're actually consuming the medium? Even Red Dead Redemption 2, a game that took long years to develop and is close to perfect on the technical side still requires tremendous effort both on game developer's and our gaming platform in order for it to simply work for us to enjoy. It's like a difference between a couch and a car. You can have a fabulous couch made with the latest technology by the finest craftsmen - but all the couch can do after it's made is look nice and allow you to comfortably sit on it. A car has to have many more things actively working in order to perform its function. Same with gaming. A movie has to be competently crafted with great effort in order to be enjoyable. But it doesn't need much in order for us to just view it. It doesn't need gameplay. It doesn't need an engine. It doesn't allow you to move the camera or take command of a character and be interactive. It doesn't have to be mindful to not drop rendering below 30 frames a second and doesn't have to bother with stuff like collision or properly attaching dialogue strings or not breaking our gaming platform when we actually consume the medium.
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Dec 6, 2018 2:05:34 GMT
Don't confuse "unpopular" with "the people who didn't like it are complete assholes." That's an important lesson BioWare fans should also know (and their haters will never understand). This could use a little explanation. I didn't like DAI. I felt lied to. I am also a BioWare fan. So, "the people who didn't like it are complete assholes" part - what do you mean by this?
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Post by arcanistranger on Dec 6, 2018 2:07:26 GMT
I didn't like DAI. I felt lied to. You should really ask yourself why #1 makes you genuinely believe #2.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2018 2:08:52 GMT
I can say the same to you honestly. You've only showed me games where the developer refused to fix bugs they knew were there. Take any Marvel movie where they have to integrate CGI to real motion, is that easy? You must think it is. Here's an article about Pixar films. While you're wasting time going on about Pixar or CGI-to-real motion integration the point I've been actually making is zooming miles above your head I mean really... how hard is it understand that I've pointed out bugs in order to illustrate what game developers have a much harder time avoiding when we're actually consuming the medium? Even Red Dead Redemption 2, a game that took long years to develop and is close to perfect on the technical side still requires tremendous effort both on game developer's and our gaming platform in order for it to simply work for us to enjoy. It's like a difference between a couch and a car. You can have a fabulous couch made with the latest technology by the finest craftsmen - but all the couch can do after it's made is look nice and allow you to comfortably sit on it. A car has to have many more things actively working in order to perform its function. Same with gaming. A movie has to be competently crafted with great effort in order to be enjoyable. But it doesn't need much in order for us to just view it. It doesn't need gameplay. It doesn't need an engine. It doesn't allow you to move the camera or take command of a character and be interactive. It doesn't have to be mindful to not drop rendering below 30 frames a second and doesn't have to bother with stuff like collision or properly attaching dialogue strings or not breaking our gaming platform when we actually consume the medium. <iframe width="23.6400000000001" height="7.939999999999998" style="position: absolute; width: 23.64px; height: 7.94px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 15px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_37058527" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="23.6400000000001" height="7.939999999999998" style="position: absolute; width: 23.64px; height: 7.94px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1123px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_92796249" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="23.6400000000001" height="7.939999999999998" style="position: absolute; width: 23.64px; height: 7.94px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 15px; top: 334px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_90234217" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="23.6400000000001" height="7.939999999999998" style="position: absolute; width: 23.64px; height: 7.94px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1123px; top: 334px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_76175766" scrolling="no"></iframe> I guess QCing a game went over yours... Movies would have the same type of "bugs" if the cared less about QC. The entire movie process vs gaming process is what is being debated here. Don't move the goalpost. Again, has a game ever shut down a city? Moved thousands to different locations? Movies easily have just as many moving parts even if you refuse to see it...
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Post by pessimistpanda on Dec 6, 2018 2:10:03 GMT
I LIKE FFXIII, but it did not receive widespread praise, especially not from the fanbase. I know, because I was repeatedly flamed on multiple gaming forums, INCLUDING OG BSN, for saying I liked it. Don't confuse "unpopular" with "the people who didn't like it are complete assholes." That's an important lesson BioWare fans should also know (and their haters will never understand). Also, Type-0 is still part of the Fabula Nova Crystallis. L'Cie and other shared aspects of the lore play heavily into Type-0's plot, which tells me you know nothing about either game's plot. I said they were rebranded, not that the content was significantly altered. And ALL Final Fantasy games re-use terms, themes and motifs. In that respect, there's nothing significantly different enough about XIII or any of the associated games that sets them apart from the rest of the franchise.
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Post by midnight tea on Dec 6, 2018 2:29:57 GMT
I guess QCing a game went over yours... Movies would have the same type of "bugs" if the cared less about QC. The entire movie process vs gaming process is what is being debated here. Don't move the goalpost. Again, has a game ever shut down a city? Moved thousands to different locations? Movies easily have just as many moving parts even if you refuse to see it... The goalpost was never moved - you just keep strawmanning me into positions I never took and wasting yours and my time It was never about 'movies require less effort to make compared to games' - if you think so, after so many responses to you in which I patiently explain to you that this is predominantly about maintenance of already finished product (plus, providing sometimes hundreds to thousands of more hours of engagement in contrast to a few), then I really have nothing more to say here other than you're barking up the wrong tree.
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Dec 6, 2018 2:35:39 GMT
I didn't like DAI. I felt lied to. You should really ask yourself why #1 makes you genuinely believe #2. Well, thanks a lot for avoiding the question. Your response is answer enough - you were calling me an asshole. And maybe a quarter of the forum as well. That's pretty sweet of you. To answer your question, you chose to make the inference that 2 followed from 1. It does not. Made by PC Gamers for PC Gamers. That was a lie. I didn't like DAI for many reasons, PC controls was definitely one of them. Tell me more about how that makes me a despicable human being.
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Post by midnight tea on Dec 6, 2018 2:42:29 GMT
So many good games are coming out, though! Anyone looking for a Bioware-esque experience while waiting should look into Assassin's Creed Odyssey. Holy crap it's good 0.0 And somehow the studio managed to get it out only a year - A YEAR - after AC Origins. But Bioware needs 7 yrs (or maybe only 6) for DA Next, to settle their cliffhanger ending. Sigh.
Can we please stop throwing around 7 years like it's a 100% confirmed thing as of today? Also - I don't think you're familiar with a mounting criticism of Ubisoft games starting to eerily resemble one another across different titles due to Ubisoft streamlining their development across the board? If that's not an issue for you though then I shouldn't worry for long - all these hijinks with training all EA game studios in the way of the Frostbite and Project Atlas thingy are ultimately about achieving a similar effect...
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Post by pessimistpanda on Dec 6, 2018 2:47:06 GMT
Hey guy. I LIKE FFXIII, but it did not receive widespread praise, especially not from the fanbase. I know, because I was repeatedly flamed on multiple gaming forums, INCLUDING OG BSN, for saying I liked it. It was extremely divisive, and roundly criticised for being stripped back, too linear, lacking in side content, etc etc. It did not pull in the money that Square Enix thought it would, and their entire "Fabula Nova Crystallis" project died. They put out two limp, bland sequels that got a lukewarm reception at best, particularly overseas, and the side games (Type-0 and Versus XIII) were rebranded to remove any association with XIII. Well you did say “nobody wanted more Final Fantasy 13” and that’s an abosulte. They clearly did have an audience though not as big as Square thought. Did I? I meant to say nobody wanted more of FF 15, specifically. An exaggeration, sure, but I can't seriously believe that anyone is GLAD that the development of core characters is being sold off piecemeal as DLC. In every previous FF game, character development and backstory has always been a) part of the core game and fundamentally linked to the central conflict of the narrative. People on this very forum would argue that Jaws of Hakkon or Descent are ESSENTIAL parts of DA:I, and should have been shipped with the base game, despite having no relevance to Corypheus or Solas. So how can anyone look at what happened to FFXV and say that it's fine?
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Post by melbella on Dec 6, 2018 2:51:49 GMT
And somehow the studio managed to get it out only a year - A YEAR - after AC Origins. But Bioware needs 7 yrs (or maybe only 6) for DA Next, to settle their cliffhanger ending. Sigh.
1. Can we please stop throwing around 7 years like it's a 100% confirmed thing as of today? 2. Also - I don't think you're familiar with a mounting criticism of Ubisoft games starting to eerily resemble one another across different titles due to Ubisoft streamlining their development across the board? 3. If that's not an issue for you though then I shouldn't worry for long - all these hijinks with training all EA game studios in the way of the Frostbite and Project Atlas thingy are ultimately about achieving a similar effect...
1. Did you see where I said "or maybe only 6," or did you just ignore it? Hell, it might be 8 at this point.
2. Don't care since I haven't played a single one of their games. What I do know is that almost everything I've read about AC Odyssey has been positive and the game came out ONE YEAR after AC Origins, which also had a positive reception.
3. I'll believe it when I see it. Even if they put out a new game every 2 yrs, with 3 franchises that is 6 yrs for each new DA game minimum (see, I can add). That's too long, imo.
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Post by midnight tea on Dec 6, 2018 2:56:11 GMT
Well you did say “nobody wanted more Final Fantasy 13” and that’s an abosulte. They clearly did have an audience though not as big as Square thought. Did I? I meant to say nobody wanted more of FF 15, specifically. An exaggeration, sure, but I can't seriously believe that anyone is GLAD that the development of core characters is being sold off piecemeal as DLC. In every previous FF game, character development and backstory has always been a) part of the core game and fundamentally linked to the central conflict of the narrative. People on this very forum would argue that Jaws of Hakkon or Descent are ESSENTIAL parts of DA:I, and should have been shipped with the base game, despite having no relevance to Corypheus or Solas. So how can anyone look at what happened to FFXV and say that it's fine? Correct me if I'm wrong (I'm not well-versed in FF games or development shenanigans) but weren't issues with FF15 more of a nature of troubled game development and change of director? I also thought that the fanbase welcomed DLCs and all the attempts to flesh out the story and generally it's thought that they helped the game... although, uh - the director left now and the 2nd season of DLCs has been canceled recently.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2018 2:56:32 GMT
I guess QCing a game went over yours... Movies would have the same type of "bugs" if the cared less about QC. The entire movie process vs gaming process is what is being debated here. Don't move the goalpost. Again, has a game ever shut down a city? Moved thousands to different locations? Movies easily have just as many moving parts even if you refuse to see it... The goalpost was never moved - you just keep strawmanning me into positions I never took and wasting yours and my time It was never about 'movies require less effort to make compared to games' - if you think so, after so many responses to you in which I patiently explain to you that this is predominantly about maintenance of already finished product (plus, providing sometimes hundreds to thousands of more hours of engagement in contrast to a few), then I really have nothing more to say here other than you're barking up the wrong tree. And how did I misunderstand this quote exactly??? it's a matter of how differently they're distributed, how much differently we consume them and how many more moving parts there are in games themselves in order for them to actually... well... work.
Seems pretty straightforward to me. Maybe you just didn't quite understand your own argument? You CLEARLY say that it has more moving parts than a movie and that was what I was CLEARY disputing. How much maintenance did MEA need again?
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