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Post by midnight tea on Dec 6, 2018 3:06:13 GMT
1. Can we please stop throwing around 7 years like it's a 100% confirmed thing as of today? 2. Also - I don't think you're familiar with a mounting criticism of Ubisoft games starting to eerily resemble one another across different titles due to Ubisoft streamlining their development across the board? 3. If that's not an issue for you though then I shouldn't worry for long - all these hijinks with training all EA game studios in the way of the Frostbite and Project Atlas thingy are ultimately about achieving a similar effect...
1. Did you see where I said "or maybe only 6," or did you just ignore it? Hell, it might be 8 at this point.
2. Don't care since I haven't played a single one of their games. What I do know is that almost everything I've read about AC Odyssey has been positive and the game came out ONE YEAR after AC Origins, which also had a positive reception.
3. I'll believe it when I see it. Even if they put out a new game every 2 yrs, with 3 franchises that is 6 yrs for each new DA game minimum (see, I can add). That's too long, imo.
Non sequitur much? My main issue is with the assumption that the rumor we heard is 100% a confirmed thing. And Ubisoft is bigger than Bioware. It also delayed AC Origins for a year to get their bearings after 2015 AC Syndicate was a flop (lowest selling major AC game to date), nevermind all the previous hijinks and bug-a-palooza that kept mounting due to a strenuous yearly schedule. Also - AFAIK now each AC is interchangeably made by 2 different studios, so both are basically simultaneously in development, at least at some points.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Dec 6, 2018 3:11:19 GMT
Did I? I meant to say nobody wanted more of FF 15, specifically. An exaggeration, sure, but I can't seriously believe that anyone is GLAD that the development of core characters is being sold off piecemeal as DLC. In every previous FF game, character development and backstory has always been a) part of the core game and fundamentally linked to the central conflict of the narrative. People on this very forum would argue that Jaws of Hakkon or Descent are ESSENTIAL parts of DA:I, and should have been shipped with the base game, despite having no relevance to Corypheus or Solas. So how can anyone look at what happened to FFXV and say that it's fine? Correct me if I'm wrong (I'm not well-versed in FF games or development shenanigans) but weren't issues with FF15 more of a nature of troubled game development and change of director? I also thought that the fanbase welcomed DLCs and all the attempts to flesh out the story and generally it's thought that they helped the game... although, uh - the director left now and the 2nd season of DLCs has been canceled recently. Yes, absolutely development was troubled. Plenty of people DID welcome the initial DLCs. I did not, and don't intend to play them; I consider it insulting to pay extra for content that has been considered INTEGRAL to past FF games, and I also consider the problems of FFXV to be fundamental; no amount of DLC could fix them. I've not seen anyone express disappointment that season 2 has been cancelled, though, statistically speaking, I suppose someone somewhere must be.
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Post by midnight tea on Dec 6, 2018 3:45:30 GMT
The goalpost was never moved - you just keep strawmanning me into positions I never took and wasting yours and my time It was never about 'movies require less effort to make compared to games' - if you think so, after so many responses to you in which I patiently explain to you that this is predominantly about maintenance of already finished product (plus, providing sometimes hundreds to thousands of more hours of engagement in contrast to a few), then I really have nothing more to say here other than you're barking up the wrong tree. And how did I misunderstand this quote exactly??? it's a matter of how differently they're distributed, how much differently we consume them and how many more moving parts there are in games themselves in order for them to actually... well... work.
Seems pretty straightforward to me. Maybe you just didn't quite understand your own argument? You CLEARLY say that it has more moving parts than a movie and that was what I was CLEARY disputing. It IS straightforward, hence me expressing surprise so often that you STILL do not get it. I mean... since when WORK means BE MADE? Work means work. On your gaming platform. When you consume it. I wasted enough time clarifying that for you. If you still don't get it... well, then I think that you need to take a break. Go, take a walk. Sleep. Because this is getting a little embarrassing to watch, whether done intentionally or no.
More than most movies after release (save maybe those that were considerably re-cut). So is Red Dead Redemption 2 now, despite lack of too buggy release. It has already received a few patches and will receive even more (together with upgrades) in years to come. I'm done repeating myself ad nauseam. If you come back swinging at strawmen I'm ignoring you.
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Post by midnight tea on Dec 6, 2018 3:53:00 GMT
Correct me if I'm wrong (I'm not well-versed in FF games or development shenanigans) but weren't issues with FF15 more of a nature of troubled game development and change of director? I also thought that the fanbase welcomed DLCs and all the attempts to flesh out the story and generally it's thought that they helped the game... although, uh - the director left now and the 2nd season of DLCs has been canceled recently. Yes, absolutely development was troubled. Plenty of people DID welcome the initial DLCs. I did not, and don't intend to play them; I consider it insulting to pay extra for content that has been considered INTEGRAL to past FF games, and I also consider the problems of FFXV to be fundamental; no amount of DLC could fix them. I've not seen anyone express disappointment that season 2 has been cancelled, though, statistically speaking, I suppose someone somewhere must be. I've watched several large FF-oriented channels on YT that did express huge disappointment - compounded by the fact that they were informed about it on official stream many people were hoping to get some nice info on upcoming DLCs and other potential goodies and instead they were informed about the cancellation and director leaving. That must've sucked regardless of how many people actually waited for it, whew - hopefully, we won't be getting anything like that in any other fandom
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Post by linksocarina on Dec 6, 2018 4:04:57 GMT
Thought experiment for you. Would you pay for Dragon Age at $100 full content, no updates, without microtransactions? Without going into caveats or saying its a false equivalency, mind you, because at the end of the day it is not. The heart of the gaming economy as it is, and why the lucrative nature of micro transactions and service models are essentially keeping games afloat at a state of equilibrium for Supply and Demand, to put a basic economic spin on it. Asuming that the game is: -Bug free, or near enough -Tells a complete story -Has as much content as any other DA game (with all the dlc) Then sure, given that's what a AAA game with all the extra content normally costs anyway. However, to drop that much money on a game, I'd need a lot of faith that the developer can and will actually deliver on all that. This kind of leads into the sort of inherent problem with the ecosystem we have in the industry here. Perfect world, all of those would be criteria, realistically, that's difficult to get. Sadly what we do know about the numbers is more or less estimations. Some journalists have reported an estimated $10,000 per employee = the total budget of a standard video game. So take BioWare, who has an estimated 800 employees in 2010 (if we split that between Austin, Montreal/EA Motive, and Edmonton) . Let's say, we divide that into thirds, so Edmonton has 267 employees. Now let's assume the time on Dragon Age 4 for this exercise, if they start development this year to 2011, (36 months from now) you are looking at a Studio Cost for Salaries, insurance, rent, labor and development at around $95,760,000. That is if they start development right now until this same time in 2011, before marketing, estimated. With marketing, were at $135 million, and that may be lowballing it. Keep in mind this is of course bigger than whole budgets for games made as far back as 1999. The most expensive game that year Shenmue at an estimated $47 million, and that was at a time where such a number was unheard of. Another perspective, I remember folks freaking out that Ultima VII cost over a million dollars to develop in 1992. A million was considered a decent chunk back then. I bring all of this up for one reason; the cost per game at $65 means a title selling their game at $135 million needs to push higher than 2,076,923.07 units to break even at that price point. That is definitly feasible, but this is a lowball estimate at full price. We know Dragon Age 4 will not be at that price, in all likelihood. So the break even point is skewed high for the cost. To offset those cost, live service model and all that is allocated (and is not segregated from the overall budget before us) to help offset and generate revenue. Got to remember, most devs have mentioned already that development costs have things like DLC baked into their models and expected cost of development. QA testing and all of that is a part of it too, and with the complexities of game development growing costs will only increase further. It's a tough spot financially and at the end of a day, in a perfect world, we will likely not pay for the same amount of content we have now. For example, Red Dead Redemption 2 is getting away with it's close to a $100 million development costs because their online economy makes them a shit ton of money to spend on that amount of detail. Without that cash flow, I would bet a lot of the features and little complex idiosyncrasies found in what many will claim is GOTY this year would not be in there. Red Dead, and Rockstar, do not make niche genre products though, which is actually inheriting more risk for games in genres with smaller player bases like RPGs, Strategy and hrdcore Simulation games.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2018 4:31:51 GMT
And how did I misunderstand this quote exactly??? it's a matter of how differently they're distributed, how much differently we consume them and how many more moving parts there are in games themselves in order for them to actually... well... work.
Seems pretty straightforward to me. Maybe you just didn't quite understand your own argument? You CLEARLY say that it has more moving parts than a movie and that was what I was CLEARY disputing. It IS straightforward, hence me expressing surprise so often that you STILL do not get it. I mean... since when WORK means BE MADE? Work means work. On your gaming platform. When you consume it. I wasted enough time clarifying that for you. If you still don't get it... well, then I think that you need to take a break. Go, take a walk. Sleep. Because this is getting a little embarrassing to watch, whether done intentionally or no.
More than most movies after release (save maybe those that were considerably re-cut). So is Red Dead Redemption 2 now, despite lack of too buggy release. It has already received a few patches and will receive even more (together with upgrades) in years to come. I'm done repeating myself ad nauseam. If you come back swinging at strawmen I'm ignoring you. Your the one embarrassing yourself quite nicely. Keep moving that goalpost baby! You've yet to answer any question other than the same BS you keep vomiting. If it works in your head I guess that's good enough...
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Post by melbella on Dec 6, 2018 4:36:01 GMT
Sadly what we do know about the numbers is more or less estimations. Some journalists have reported an estimated $10,000 per employee = the total budget of a standard video game. Your post is confusing....the dates in it are 2010 and 2011 but it's written as if from the present? Is that an old article quoted or ????
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Post by thats1evildude on Dec 6, 2018 4:36:47 GMT
It's a tough spot financially It's a largely self-created problem, Links. The industry dug itself into a hole with a greater emphasis on perfect graphical fidelity and bloated marketing budgets. Now they're shoving microtransactions down our throats to try and improve their bottom line.
And the thing is, they're still failing to meet their own expectations, because the bar is so ridiculously high. Activision made $500 million off of Call of Duty: Black Ops 4 and their stock STILL was in the shitter just because they moved slightly fewer copies than expected.
Sadly what we do know about the numbers is more or less estimations. Some journalists have reported an estimated $10,000 per employee = the total budget of a standard video game. Your post is confusing....the dates in it are 2010 and 2011 but it's written as if from the present? Is that an old article quoted or ???? I suspect that where Links references 2011, he actually means 2021.
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Post by midnight tea on Dec 6, 2018 4:45:42 GMT
It's a tough spot financially It's a largely self-created problem, Links. Are they now? I'm not so sure. I also think that some of the problems are stemming from what whole entertainment industry is dealing with (a lot of branches have had problems for a while now) or they may be a result of even bigger systemic issues... but I'm not getting into THAT discussion, especially this late in the night Uh... have you seen what's been happening with stocks across the industry or tech companies or even beyond that lately? It's not just EA's or Activision stock that is dropping or not just because of their actions alone. Just... bigger, systemic things.
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Post by alanc9 on Dec 6, 2018 5:22:44 GMT
Red Dead, and Rockstar, do not make niche genre products though, which is actually inheriting more risk for games in genres with smaller player bases like RPGs, Strategy and hardcore Simulation games. I kind of like the way Paradox has answered the question. Of course, they're just running Bio's old NWN Premium Mods playbook -- sell DLC to support continued development for the free tier.
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Post by alanc9 on Dec 6, 2018 5:26:20 GMT
Made by PC Gamers for PC Gamers. That was a lie. I didn't like DAI for many reasons, PC controls was definitely one of them. I can't remember anymore -- what was supposed to be the problem with DAI's controls? Standard WASD movement, right? Yeah, OK, the default keybinds were silly because they were copied from DA:O, but who uses defaults?
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Dec 6, 2018 6:10:44 GMT
Made by PC Gamers for PC Gamers. That was a lie. I didn't like DAI for many reasons, PC controls was definitely one of them. I can't remember anymore -- what was supposed to be the problem with DAI's controls? Standard WASD movement, right? Yeah, OK, the default keybinds were silly because they were copied from DA:O, but who uses defaults? It was fixed with the third post release patch, but no bindable Walk key annoyed me greatly, as I recall. Mostly because the PC version had it, but only while using a controller. There was also something about left and right mouse button I don't recall the specifics.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2018 6:22:16 GMT
I can't remember anymore -- what was supposed to be the problem with DAI's controls? Standard WASD movement, right? Yeah, OK, the default keybinds were silly because they were copied from DA:O, but who uses defaults? It was fixed with the third post release patch, but no bindable Walk key annoyed me greatly, as I recall. Mostly because the PC version had it, but only while using a controller. There was also something about left and right mouse button I don't recall the specifics. Didn't the R & L buttons have to do with auto run in previous games but it wasn't in DAI?
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Dec 6, 2018 6:50:13 GMT
It was fixed with the third post release patch, but no bindable Walk key annoyed me greatly, as I recall. Mostly because the PC version had it, but only while using a controller. There was also something about left and right mouse button I don't recall the specifics. Didn't the R & L buttons have to do with auto run in previous games but it wasn't in DAI? Possibly, I honestly can't remember. I just remember "the issue", not why it was one. Mostly because I wasn't actually bothered by it myself, I think. The walk key bugged me, though.
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Post by JokeDealer on Dec 6, 2018 7:43:42 GMT
Seems like there's a bit of bad blood flowing. I see some well-meaning folk, but every sensible point is being lost in the holier-than-thou packaging that it's being delivered in. The simple truth is if it can't be backed up with numbers or data, it's a subjective opinion, not a fact.
As for the VentureBeat article, I'm sorry, but I don't trust it. This article puts forward unsubstantiated rumors that build upon an earlier report by the same journalist that was centered around more unsubstantiated rumors. Even if the timeline matches up, that doesn't necessarily mean that every other aspect of either story is true (False Cause Fallacy). Although Jason Schreier is a bit of an asshat who is incapable of reporting the facts without interjecting his own bias, his track record has proven the reliability of some of his information. Unfortunately, I can't say the same for this guy, who seems to be opportunistically putting out pieces at the right time and hoping that the timing will give it the credibility it needs.
I don't doubt that Dragon Age 4 is at least a couple of years away, but I do doubt the rest of the information that has been put forward in this article. Based on Bioware's release schedule, they seem to put out a new game every 2-3 years, which I assume is to keep the gamers' focus on one product at a time. However, being right about the timing of DA4's release does not verify any other aspect of his story. The timing and events could match up as he suggests, but that doesn't necessarily prove that the reasons he gave for the aforementioned events were correct either.
Regardless of all that, I'm fine with them taking their time. DA2 was rushed and that left me with a terribly sour taste in my mouth. Considering that Bioware added a remarkable amount to Inquisition after it was delayed a year, I'm fine with them taking as much time as they need to put it out.
EDIT: Also, this guy calls Mike Laidlaw a writer for Dragon Age, which is wildly incorrect (he was a lead designer and a creative director). I know one mistake doesn't prove that the rest of his info is incorrect, but it does not seem like he did his due diligence in reporting this piece. In consideration of the information available, I would say that the people who consider this piece as anything more than speculation are likely the victims of their own confirmation bias.
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Post by Solas on Dec 6, 2018 8:07:12 GMT
ohmygaw todays the day you guyyyys
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Post by Andrew Waples on Dec 6, 2018 8:21:31 GMT
ohmygaw todays the day you guyyyys We will get our revenge on you soon enough, Baldy.
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Post by Gileadan on Dec 6, 2018 8:34:57 GMT
Made by PC Gamers for PC Gamers. That was a lie. I didn't like DAI for many reasons, PC controls was definitely one of them. I can't remember anymore -- what was supposed to be the problem with DAI's controls? Standard WASD movement, right? Yeah, OK, the default keybinds were silly because they were copied from DA:O, but who uses defaults? The problem also was (and still is) that moving your mouse only moves the camera, and you have to keep the right mouse button pressed to actually turn your character. This means you need to constantly hold the right mouse button down during normal gameplay, and release it only when you want to gawk at your character. Interaction with objects like chests or all that elfroot felt clumsy, requiring exact positioning and used an infuriatingly slow pick-up animation. The menu UI was and is a console nightmare from hell. Sure, it's definitely playable, but there is no way that the statement "by PC gamers for PC gamers" is true - an ironic thing to claim given how they played the game with a controller on every pre-release stream.
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Post by Andraste_Reborn on Dec 6, 2018 9:10:27 GMT
ohmygaw todays the day you guyyyys I still have to somehow go to sleep between now and the Game Awards, ugh. (The price for them being on at what translates to a reasonable hour local time.)
Or maybe I will just end up playing Dragon Age all night to try and take the edge off.
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Post by Pounce de León on Dec 6, 2018 9:17:03 GMT
I can't remember anymore -- what was supposed to be the problem with DAI's controls? Standard WASD movement, right? Yeah, OK, the default keybinds were silly because they were copied from DA:O, but who uses defaults? The problem also was (and still is) that moving your mouse only moves the camera, and you have to keep the right mouse button pressed to actually turn your character. This means you need to constantly hold the right mouse button down during normal gameplay, and release it only when you want to gawk at your character. Interaction with objects like chests or all that elfroot felt clumsy, requiring exact positioning and used an infuriatingly slow pick-up animation. The menu UI was and is a console nightmare from hell. Sure, it's definitely playable, but there is no way that the statement "by PC gamers for PC gamers" is true - an ironic thing to claim given how they played the game with a controller on every pre-release stream. Having to press RMB for the most basic control was super clumsy. It should have been the other way round. It was kinda obvious the PC controls weren't properly thought through. Eventually they got it right in MEA but seeing thm all play with controllers again dint make me feel very confident it'd be adequate controls before the game came out.
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Post by linksocarina on Dec 6, 2018 13:04:04 GMT
Sadly what we do know about the numbers is more or less estimations. Some journalists have reported an estimated $10,000 per employee = the total budget of a standard video game. Your post is confusing....the dates in it are 2010 and 2011 but it's written as if from the present? Is that an old article quoted or ???? The evidence we have is out dated so I'm using that as reference. The 800 employees at Bioware is an estimate from 2010, not 2018, for example. I don't know official numbers so I'm making educated guesses.
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Post by midnight tea on Dec 6, 2018 13:25:35 GMT
Seems like there's a bit of bad blood flowing. I see some well-meaning folk, but every sensible point is being lost in the holier-than-thou packaging that it's being delivered in. The simple truth is if it can't be backed up with numbers or data, it's a subjective opinion, not a fact. As for the VentureBeat article, I'm sorry, but I don't trust it. This article puts forward unsubstantiated rumors that build upon an earlier report by the same journalist that was centered around more unsubstantiated rumors. Even if the timeline matches up, that doesn't necessarily mean that every other aspect of either story is true (False Cause Fallacy). Although Jason Schreier is a bit of an asshat who is incapable of reporting the facts without interjecting his own bias, his track record has proven the reliability of some of his information. Unfortunately, I can't say the same for this guy, who seems to be opportunistically putting out pieces at the right time and hoping that the timing will give it the credibility it needs. I don't doubt that Dragon Age 4 is at least a couple of years away, but I do doubt the rest of the information that has been put forward in this article. Based on Bioware's release schedule, they seem to put out a new game every 2-3 years, which I assume is to keep the gamers' focus on one product at a time. However, being right about the timing of DA4's release does not verify any other aspect of his story. The timing and events could match up as he suggests, but that doesn't necessarily prove that the reasons he gave for the aforementioned events were correct either. Regardless of all that, I'm fine with them taking their time. DA2 was rushed and that left me with a terribly sour taste in my mouth. Considering that Bioware added a remarkable amount to Inquisition after it was delayed a year, I'm fine with them taking as much time as they need to put it out. EDIT: Also, this guy calls Mike Laidlaw a writer for Dragon Age, which is wildly incorrect (he was a lead designer and a creative director). I know one mistake doesn't prove that the rest of his info is incorrect, but it does not seem like he did his due diligence in reporting this piece. In consideration of the information available, I would say that the people who consider this piece as anything more than speculation are likely the victims of their own confirmation bias. I have to wonder... is it possible that the person who wrote the article wrote that DA is 3 years away because they heard a year thrown around, but they figured "eh, Bioware delays its games anyway" and that's how we got a year estimate? I mean... not saying that it's not going to happen^^; It's not just Bioware that delays its bigger games lately. Plus, I have to wonder if we won't be seeing changes in terms of releases from now on. This holiday season was brutal not just for EA. Too many AAA releases crowded in a short period of time, so any late-year releases may be pushed a few months to early next year just to not disappear in the crowd...
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Post by Andrew Waples on Dec 6, 2018 13:53:24 GMT
ohmygaw todays the day you guyyyys I still have to somehow go to sleep between now and the Game Awards, ugh. (The price for them being on at what translates to a reasonable hour local time.)
Or maybe I will just end up playing Dragon Age all night to try and take the edge off.
I really hope its revealed at The Game Awards... the tease never said it would actually be there.
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Post by midnight tea on Dec 6, 2018 14:02:25 GMT
I still have to somehow go to sleep between now and the Game Awards, ugh. (The price for them being on at what translates to a reasonable hour local time.)
Or maybe I will just end up playing Dragon Age all night to try and take the edge off.
I really hope its revealed at The Game Awards... the tease never said it would actually be there. Nope, in fact, they said that they won't tell when and where any sort of revel about DA will happen. It could be the silliest and least expected thing ever any time in December.
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Post by Heimdall on Dec 6, 2018 14:52:13 GMT
I still have to somehow go to sleep between now and the Game Awards, ugh. (The price for them being on at what translates to a reasonable hour local time.)
Or maybe I will just end up playing Dragon Age all night to try and take the edge off.
I really hope its revealed at The Game Awards... the tease never said it would actually be there. They didn’t, but it’s a pretty likely candidate. I can’t think of any other event in December that would let them reach as wide an audience.
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