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Post by gervaise21 on Dec 20, 2018 18:34:56 GMT
Except "Turn slaves to freed folks to fight false gods" and "return the world to its natural state" are not extremist positions. If anything, the current state of Thedas is rather "extreme" and is in serious need of balance. Right now, the extremely few hold most of the wealth/resources and most everyone else is in poverty or slavery... not to mention the problems created by the Veil and Blights. Solas's plan could very well return the world to some sort of balance, or it could strive for this balance. Solas mentions a pace that sustained the elves for millennia, that could be a good thing to shoot for and doesn't sound so extreme.
Actually this is not true of the whole of Thedas. There are the empires of Orlais and Tevinter where this holds good. However, in Ferelden the majority of the wealth is in the Freeholders. It is they who decide who to pay their taxes to based on how good a job they do at defending them from threats, which is what keeps nobles in their positions. If they fail, the Freeholders transfer their support elsewhere. Unfortunately DAI totally ignored this basic principle of the governance of Ferelden. War Table missions had a noble complaining about refugees and asking us to do something about them, when that was his job. Much of the time the nobles were conspicuous by their absence and to be honest the only reason the Inquisition should have given up the Keep at Crestwood was if the local freeholders had demanded it. Actually considering we were the ones who saved them from undead and bandits, I think the local freeholders would have been in favour of keeping the Inquisition. We actually make this point to Teagan in an aggressive disband speech.
In Rivain, outside the cities, there seems a reasonably good system based off wise women guiding the community. That is also true of the Avvar and their Thanes and Augurs. They might be minority communities but that doesn't mean that don't have a validity and right to continue. Kirkwall was a mess but that is not to say the rest of the Freemarches are the same. If you have an elven Inquisitor, after kicking out the corrupt ruler of Wycome, the city council, including clan Lavellan seem to do a good job of running things.
So to suggest you need to tear down the Veil to achieve a fairer and more equal society is just nonsense. You need to support those systems of governance that are not based on corrupt nobility keeping the masses down through fear. In fact the whole reason he put up the Veil in the first place was to get rid of the previous evil empire based off god-kings who couldn't easily be simply assassinated. That is certainly not true of modern day Thedas where assassination seems the standard method of removing leaders.
Also removing the Veil is an extremist position as it is not returning the world to "its natural state". Several millennia have passed since he took his action. The world has moved on and new ecosystems established themselves. The modern world is now the "natural" state of Thedas and he admits his action would destroy it all.
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Post by midnight tea on Dec 20, 2018 19:18:09 GMT
Except "Turn slaves to freed folks to fight false gods" and "return the world to its natural state" are not extremist positions. If anything, the current state of Thedas is rather "extreme" and is in serious need of balance. Right now, the extremely few hold most of the wealth/resources and most everyone else is in poverty or slavery... not to mention the problems created by the Veil and Blights. Solas's plan could very well return the world to some sort of balance, or it could strive for this balance. Solas mentions a pace that sustained the elves for millennia, that could be a good thing to shoot for and doesn't sound so extreme. Actually this is not true of the whole of Thedas. There are the empires of Orlais and Tevinter where this holds good. However, in Ferelden the majority of the wealth is in the Freeholders. It is they who decide who to pay their taxes to based on how good a job they do at defending them from threats, which is what keeps nobles in their positions. If they fail, the Freeholders transfer their support elsewhere. Unfortunately DAI totally ignored this basic principle of the governance of Ferelden. War Table missions had a noble complaining about refugees and asking us to do something about them, when that was his job. Much of the time the nobles were conspicuous by their absence and to be honest the only reason the Inquisition should have given up the Keep at Crestwood was if the local freeholders had demanded it. Actually considering we were the ones who saved them from undead and bandits, I think the local freeholders would have been in favour of keeping the Inquisition. We actually make this point to Teagan in an aggressive disband speech. Or... you know - the system is decent in theory but doesn't work in practice. Many systems like that existed/exist IRL too, where reality doesn't match with the concept. Nevermind that Ferelden has been under Orlesian shoe for a while...
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Post by gervaise21 on Dec 20, 2018 20:01:20 GMT
Or... you know - the system is decent in theory but doesn't work in practice. No according to the lore in the Core Rule Book, which is what DAO was based around, the system does work in practice. In fact that is why Eamon calls the Landsmeet because you rule only with the approval of the Banns and they only rule with the approval of the Freeholders. It is in fact very closely modelled on Saxon England. It is what marks Ferelden out as different from Orlais. A codex actually makes this point. The reason some nobles supported the Orlesian occupation was likely because they liked the idea of ruling by Divine Right with no possibility of being voted out of the job but those nobles didn't fair so well once Ferelden was back to its traditional system of governance. That is why I say that if you knew about how things are meant to be done in Ferelden, it was noticeable how absent the nobility were when they should have been out in the field defending the people. We didn't even see them when we go to Therinfall to meet with the Templars but instead have Orlesian nobility backing our cause when the castle is deep within Ferelden. That was a nonsense.
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Post by midnight tea on Dec 20, 2018 20:17:20 GMT
Or... you know - the system is decent in theory but doesn't work in practice. No according to the lore in the Core Rule Book, which is what DAO was based around, the system does work in practice. In fact that is why Eamon calls the Landsmeet because you rule only with the approval of the Banns and they only rule with the approval of the Freeholders. It is in fact very closely modelled on Saxon England. It is what marks Ferelden out as different from Orlais. A codex actually makes this point. The reason some nobles supported the Orlesian occupation was likely because they liked the idea of ruling by Divine Right with no possibility of being voted out of the job but those nobles didn't fair so well once Ferelden was back to its traditional system of governance. That is why I say that if you knew about how things are meant to be done in Ferelden, it was noticeable how absent the nobility were when they should have been out in the field defending the people. We didn't even see them when we go to Therinfall to meet with the Templars but instead have Orlesian nobility backing our cause when the castle is deep within Ferelden. That was a nonsense. From Brittanica: A somewhat similar system also existed in Poland too. Kings were elected. The nobles still mostly owned peasants - even if not officially then through systems or structures of law that kept them where nobles wanted. Both here and in England, these were still subsets of a feudal system. So, again - theory and practice don't always match. And all the lore in Dragon Age is written from the in-world perspective and not an unbiased meta-perspective. The fact that Eamon calls the Landsmeet only provides evidence that Banns held power, not necessarily people underneath them.
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Dec 20, 2018 20:27:34 GMT
Except "Turn slaves to freed folks to fight false gods" and "return the world to its natural state" are not extremist positions. If anything, the current state of Thedas is rather "extreme" and is in serious need of balance. Right now, the extremely few hold most of the wealth/resources and most everyone else is in poverty or slavery... not to mention the problems created by the Veil and Blights. Solas's plan could very well return the world to some sort of balance, or it could strive for this balance. Solas mentions a pace that sustained the elves for millennia, that could be a good thing to shoot for and doesn't sound so extreme.
Actually this is not true of the whole of Thedas. There are the empires of Orlais and Tevinter where this holds good. However, in Ferelden the majority of the wealth is in the Freeholders. It is they who decide who to pay their taxes to based on how good a job they do at defending them from threats, which is what keeps nobles in their positions. If they fail, the Freeholders transfer their support elsewhere. Unfortunately DAI totally ignored this basic principle of the governance of Ferelden. War Table missions had a noble complaining about refugees and asking us to do something about them, when that was his job. Much of the time the nobles were conspicuous by their absence and to be honest the only reason the Inquisition should have given up the Keep at Crestwood was if the local freeholders had demanded it. Actually considering we were the ones who saved them from undead and bandits, I think the local freeholders would have been in favour of keeping the Inquisition. We actually make this point to Teagan in an aggressive disband speech.
In Rivain, outside the cities, there seems a reasonably good system based off wise women guiding the community. That is also true of the Avvar and their Thanes and Augurs. They might be minority communities but that doesn't mean that don't have a validity and right to continue. Kirkwall was a mess but that is not to say the rest of the Freemarches are the same. If you have an elven Inquisitor, after kicking out the corrupt ruler of Wycome, the city council, including clan Lavellan seem to do a good job of running things.
So to suggest you need to tear down the Veil to achieve a fairer and more equal society is just nonsense. You need to support those systems of governance that are not based on corrupt nobility keeping the masses down through fear. In fact the whole reason he put up the Veil in the first place was to get rid of the previous evil empire based off god-kings who couldn't easily be simply assassinated. That is certainly not true of modern day Thedas where assassination seems the standard method of removing leaders.
Also removing the Veil is an extremist position as it is not returning the world to "its natural state". Several millennia have passed since he took his action. The world has moved on and new ecosystems established themselves. The modern world is now the "natural" state of Thedas and he admits his action would destroy it all. We can just agree to disagree about both how the world has strained underneath the burden of the unnatural Veil and the economic systems where clearly most of the wealth is not in the hands of the powerless peasants.
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Post by gervaise21 on Dec 20, 2018 20:56:47 GMT
We can just agree to disagree about both how the world has strained underneath the burden of the unnatural Veil and the economic systems where clearly most of the wealth is not in the hands of the powerless peasants. I just get annoyed that these arguments are based off simply how the most "civilised" societies operate and also totally ignores the natural world, which actually comprises the majority of Thedas. What of the flora and fauna that have developed post Veil, don't they merit consideration? As I pointed out we have Rivaini society, Avvar Society, the Chasind society and Dalish society. They may be on the fringes but they are all examples of different systems of governance that don't rely on a few nobles and a mass of downtrodden peasants. The only justification for his world shattering plan to remove the Veil would be if he knows the current world is doomed regardless because of the Blight and only a massive injection of magic will save it. Otherwise, he should use his wisdom and knowledge to improve systems within the current world environment rather than alter it in such a devastating way.
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Post by phoray on Dec 20, 2018 20:57:10 GMT
Oh yes, let's make the Dragon Age World as cookie cutter as possible. Thedas is exactly like the real world and those in power above are always smashing the little guy with it's boot.
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Post by midnight tea on Dec 20, 2018 21:05:01 GMT
Oh yes, let's make the Dragon Age World as cookie cutter as possible. Thedas is exactly like the real world and those in power above are always smashing the little guy with it's boot. Nobody said that Thedas is exactly like world IRL. But they have similar problems - still further amplified by natural catastrophes the likes we IRL have never seen before, like the Blight or people with literal god-like powers. And catastrophes of that kind (of any kind, really) rarely foster progress.
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Post by NotN7 on Dec 20, 2018 23:55:56 GMT
Oh yes, let's make the Dragon Age World as cookie cutter as possible. Thedas is exactly like the real world and those in power above are always smashing the little guy with it's boot. Nobody said that Thedas is exactly like world IRL. But they have similar problems - still further amplified by natural catastrophes the likes we IRL have never seen before, like the Blight or people with literal god-like powers. And catastrophes of that kind (of any kind, really) rarely foster progress. Joking here, so your saying the Nugs at the kings bequest are goin to revolt against Thedas????
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Post by midnight tea on Dec 20, 2018 23:58:19 GMT
Nobody said that Thedas is exactly like world IRL. But they have similar problems - still further amplified by natural catastrophes the likes we IRL have never seen before, like the Blight or people with literal god-like powers. And catastrophes of that kind (of any kind, really) rarely foster progress. Joking here, so your saying the Nugs at the kings bequest are goin to revolt against Thedas???? Maaaaaaaybeeeeeeeeee? I mean, they DO have their own king after all.
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Post by NotN7 on Dec 21, 2018 0:02:30 GMT
LOL! couldn't think of any other natural disaster for Thedas
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Post by ladyiolanthe on Dec 21, 2018 1:27:40 GMT
I just get annoyed that these arguments are based off simply how the most "civilised" societies operate and also totally ignores the natural world, which actually comprises the majority of Thedas. What of the flora and fauna that have developed post Veil, don't they merit consideration? As I pointed out we have Rivaini society, Avvar Society, the Chasind society and Dalish society. They may be on the fringes but they are all examples of different systems of governance that don't rely on a few nobles and a mass of downtrodden peasants. The only justification for his world shattering plan to remove the Veil would be if he knows the current world is doomed regardless because of the Blight and only a massive injection of magic will save it. Otherwise, he should use his wisdom and knowledge to improve systems within the current world environment rather than alter it in such a devastating way. This assumes that the current flora and fauna are drastically different than what existed pre-Veil, which I don't think is anything we can say with certainty just yet. Indeed, based on the animals linked with the Evanuris (wolves, hares, bears, owls) it sounds like it was pretty much the same. Just with more spirits floating around. Drawing on real-world evolution, stuff typically doesn't change much in 10,000 years. The animals and plants we have around today are still the same ones we had when the glaciers melted after the last Ice Age. Stochastic leaps are possible, but don't happen all that frequently, really. Back to Thedas, some stochastic leaps may have been triggered by the raising of the Veil if individuals in a population of plants or animals carried a mutated gene that gave them a competitive edge when the magic disappeared, but that would probably only happen in a small handful of species. But, the cultures that have arisen in the past 10,000 years in Thedas have intrinsic value, and would definitely be affected by the loss of the Veil and the return to a magic-filled world. I agree with you that they deserve better. That being said, I do think Solas is being a bit of a drama king when he claims he "destroyed the world." He destroyed his world - Elvhen culture and Elvhen civilization - certainly, but the physical world, the animals, the plants seem to be just fine (aside from the Blight.)
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Post by phoray on Dec 21, 2018 1:40:28 GMT
Oh yes, let's make the Dragon Age World as cookie cutter as possible. Thedas is exactly like the real world and those in power above are always smashing the little guy with it's boot. Nobody said that Thedas is exactly like world IRL. But they have similar problems - still further amplified by natural catastrophes the likes we IRL have never seen before, like the Blight or people with literal god-like powers. And catastrophes of that kind (of any kind, really) rarely foster progress. but you seem to be arguing that because Thedas reflects out world's problems, Thedas primarily has our world's problems and must have similar reflective of our world resolutions. Whereas gervaise21 is trying to point out that Thedas is unique and unlike our world's attempts at utopian / egalitarian societies and resultant failures, could actually succeed for a variety of reasons. It's kinda of sad, really, what Gervaise has pointed out. Someone went through all the trouble of making these Countries politically and culturally unique, but it had to be ignored to streamline a plot; Organized Power bad.
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Post by midnight tea on Dec 21, 2018 2:43:08 GMT
Nobody said that Thedas is exactly like world IRL. But they have similar problems - still further amplified by natural catastrophes the likes we IRL have never seen before, like the Blight or people with literal god-like powers. And catastrophes of that kind (of any kind, really) rarely foster progress. but you seem to be arguing that because Thedas reflects out world's problems, Thedas primarily has our world's problems and must have similar reflective of our world resolutions. Whereas gervaise21 is trying to point out that Thedas is unique and unlike our world's attempts at utopian / egalitarian societies and resultant failures, could actually succeed for a variety of reasons. It's kinda of sad, really, what Gervaise has pointed out. Someone went through all the trouble of making these Countries politically and culturally unique, but it had to be ignored to streamline a plot; Organized Power bad. Phoray... it's Gervaise that compared Ferelden to OUR Saxon England I merely pointed out that the system in Ferelden ain't necessarily something to be qualified as a decent alternative to what happens in Orlais or Tevinter. You're making my response into something it isn't. Listen, you're a good sport and I enjoy most of our conversations - but I think that if you want to respond to someone you may want to be a little bit more mindful of what you're responding to, or the context surrounding what you're responding to. It's Chrismas soon - dunno, maybe you're tired... but it's been twice today that you either misrepresented or misunderstood what I've stated in previous discussions (pretty sure it's not the fault of my English and I'm fairly sure I can't be accused much lately of having attitude problems?) and decided to be somewhat combative about it. Also - just because Bioware has created their own unique spin on fantasy world doesn't mean that it's something truly unique (it was never supposed to be, which is why Dragon Age is also very intentionally tropey and archetypical. The devil lies in the details!). The BW devs were entirely transparent about what inspired them or what cultures they based many of their cultures on (Orlais - renaissance/baroque France, Ferelden - medieval England, Tevinter - Rome/Byzantium, etc) . I mean, nevermind what they based them on - we relate and empathize with people there because of how similar they are to us. That alone makes many of their issues similar to our own and thus comparisons can be drawn. A side note: I should clarify that, overall, I'm not arguing for the destruction of modern Thedas, just because things don't work so well in it now. The funny thing is that I am one of those people who - while I can see and understand why the world may need to be reshaped under certain circumstances - I'm not even sure that this is what is going to happen anyway, or that it should happen. That depends on what we're going to learn later or things (about Solas's plan or fate of magic or the world in general, etc) become clearer. What I think WILL change is likely the status quo - but that in itself doesn't necessarily require the Veil going down or wholesale destruction. My leading theory so far is that Bioware is trying to tell through their story that we shouldn't be clinging to past or sticking to how things are in the present, but take what works from then and now and just... move on to try and build better future together.
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Post by xerrai on Dec 21, 2018 6:50:24 GMT
I just get annoyed that these arguments are based off simply how the most "civilised" societies operate and also totally ignores the natural world, which actually comprises the majority of Thedas. What of the flora and fauna that have developed post Veil, don't they merit consideration? As I pointed out we have Rivaini society, Avvar Society, the Chasind society and Dalish society. They may be on the fringes but they are all examples of different systems of governance that don't rely on a few nobles and a mass of downtrodden peasants. The only justification for his world shattering plan to remove the Veil would be if he knows the current world is doomed regardless because of the Blight and only a massive injection of magic will save it. Otherwise, he should use his wisdom and knowledge to improve systems within the current world environment rather than alter it in such a devastating way. This assumes that the current flora and fauna are drastically different than what existed pre-Veil, which I don't think is anything we can say with certainty just yet. Indeed, based on the animals linked with the Evanuris (wolves, hares, bears, owls) it sounds like it was pretty much the same. Just with more spirits floating around. [...] Actually, there is a distinct possibility that this may be the case. I don't mean that in the sense that X plants drastically changed to Y plants after the veil went up, but we do have evidence suggesting the strength of the veil/availability of magic can affect the flora and fauna of Thedas. The most obvious example is felandaris, a plant that only grows where the veil is thin. So that indicates the possibility that that there were species of flora that could only flourish when in a weak (or no) veil environment. (There's also this codex that may also imply the same but it could be metaphoric so...). But we also have indications of veil-strength potentially affecting the fauna as well. The JoH DLC included a quest entirely comprised of hunting "fade touched" creatures who look physically distinct from thier non-fade-touched counterparts. I can't quite determine if these creatures were born fade-touched or they developed that characteristic later in thier life cycle, but I am assuming the change was based off thier relation to the fade in thier environment if the name "fade touched" is anything to go by. And this isn't even mentioning the quirks or continual emergence of a sizable mage population despite attempts to influenced thier population (Tevinter tried to keep magic in the upper ranks, the south discourages thier mages from child having altogether, and despite there being no record you KNOW the Qunari at least tried to control/selectively breed thier saarebas population). So in addition for the pre-veil world possibly being able to have species that can only thrive where magic is in the environment, there is also the distinct possibility that creatures pre-veil were able to have biological (?) expressions that would by and large not be seen in modern thedas. This would actually make some things make sense for a few things. Like how there are several paintings of horned creatures in elven ruins despite not seeming to exist today (if they existed at all), and how the sentinels seemed larger than modern elves.
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Post by ladyiolanthe on Dec 21, 2018 14:50:22 GMT
This assumes that the current flora and fauna are drastically different than what existed pre-Veil, which I don't think is anything we can say with certainty just yet. Indeed, based on the animals linked with the Evanuris (wolves, hares, bears, owls) it sounds like it was pretty much the same. Just with more spirits floating around. [...] Actually, there is a distinct possibility that this may be the case. I don't mean that in the sense that X plants drastically changed to Y plants after the veil went up, but we do have evidence suggesting the strength of the veil/availability of magic can affect the flora and fauna of Thedas. The most obvious example is felandaris, a plant that only grows where the veil is thin. So that indicates the possibility that that there were species of flora that could only flourish when in a weak (or no) veil environment. (There's also this codex that may also imply the same but it could be metaphoric so...). But we also have indications of veil-strength potentially affecting the fauna as well. The JoH DLC included a quest entirely comprised of hunting "fade touched" creatures who look physically distinct from thier non-fade-touched counterparts. I can't quite determine if these creatures were born fade-touched or they developed that characteristic later in thier life cycle, but I am assuming the change was based off thier relation to the fade in thier environment if the name "fade touched" is anything to go by. And this isn't even mentioning the quirks or continual emergence of a sizable mage population despite attempts to influenced thier population (Tevinter tried to keep magic in the upper ranks, the south discourages thier mages from child having altogether, and despite there being no record you KNOW the Qunari at least tried to control/selectively breed thier saarebas population). So in addition for the pre-veil world possibly being able to have species that can only thrive where magic is in the environment, there is also the distinct possibility that creatures pre-veil were able to have biological (?) expressions that would by and large not be seen in modern thedas. This would actually make some things make sense for a few things. Like how there are several paintings of horned creatures in elven ruins despite not seeming to exist today (if they existed at all), and how the sentinels seemed larger than modern elves. I don't think we have enough evidence to go one way or another on this, as I mentioned in my first post on the subject. Felandaris is indeed a plant that probably flourished more pre-Veil and remains in remnant populations where the Veil is thin, I agree. A real-world analogue is disjunct populations of plants on nunataks (high points of land that never got glaciated, so some species of flora that existed there have been there for possibly 2.6 million years and are distantly separated from the nearest other population of the same plant.). Felandaris to me is like a disjunct population of a plant that needs something it can only get from Fade energy (a real world analogue would be a plant like samphire that is adapted to grow in saline environments so you ONLY find it in places like salt plains), but its existence does not imply that all plants and animals were vastly different pre-Veil. In this respect, you are absolutely right that there were probably some plants and animals that needed Fade energy to survive and they may no longer be in modern Thedas. But it doesn't suggest to me that this would have been the case for the majority of plants and animals. Again - the animals associated with the Evanuris (wolves, bears, owls, hares, even dragons) are ones that still exist in modern Thedas, with the Veil present. With regards to the Veil strength having an effect on fauna, for me that is more like the animals around Chernobyl being irradiated but thriving. It is an entirely different concept than "animals and plants must have evolved into something drastically different than they were 8,000 years ago before the Veil was raised." The absence of large ungulates that ancient elves painted can be easily explained by another real world analogue - horses evolved in North America but were basically hunted to extinction by early North American humans 13,000 years ago. (Modern wild horses in North America are descended from animals the Europeans brought over with them.) It's entirely possible that those big horned Thedosian animals were also wiped out by people in the past 8000 or so years since the Veil was raised. I agree that the sentinels being larger than modern elves (and Solas being larger than modern elves) may be linked to the Veil's presence. Solas himself told us that elves have definitely changed - forgotten themselves, even - since he put the Veil up. We don't know exactly in what way but size may well be one of the outward signs of the change. However, it's also possible that this is a result of modern city and Dalish elves having poorer quality diets than the ancient elves who ruled an empire might have had.
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Post by midnight tea on Dec 21, 2018 16:13:43 GMT
I don't think we have enough evidence to go one way or another on this, as I mentioned in my first post on the subject. Felandaris is indeed a plant that probably flourished more pre-Veil and remains in remnant populations where the Veil is thin, I agree. A real-world analogue is disjunct populations of plants on nunataks (high points of land that never got glaciated, so some species of flora that existed there have been there for possibly 2.6 million years and are distantly separated from the nearest other population of the same plant.). Felandaris to me is like a disjunct population of a plant that needs something it can only get from Fade energy (a real world analogue would be a plant like samphire that is adapted to grow in saline environments so you ONLY find it in places like salt plains), but its existence does not imply that all plants and animals were vastly different pre-Veil. In this respect, you are absolutely right that there were probably some plants and animals that needed Fade energy to survive and they may no longer be in modern Thedas. But it doesn't suggest to me that this would have been the case for the majority of plants and animals. Again - the animals associated with the Evanuris (wolves, bears, owls, hares, even dragons) are ones that still exist in modern Thedas, with the Veil present. It'd be quite hilarious if it was like in the world of AtlA: I think that the presence of the Fade makes it difficult to assess just how similar the evolutionary process in Thedas is to ours. Fade-touched animals appear to just be animals affected by the Fade if they hang out a bit too long in places where the Veil is thin and not necessarily different sub-species, for example... so I'm not sure we can even talk about evolution per se there, just like we can't talk about evolution when mages change their biological composition after they become abominations, or get infected with Blight, or affected by red lyrium. Then there are all the unknowns concerning any evolutionary processes on the other side of the Veil. We *do* know that there's an effect - an abundance of sentiment or presence of corruption will skew the Fade to produce more dangerous or less desirable spirits, for example. Cassandra: Solas, I am sorry about your... friend. Solas: Thank you. Cassandra: I knew demons and spirits were similar, but I did not know one could become the other so easily. Solas: Not similar, Seeker. The same. The Chantry sees black and white, but nature is, and always has been, grey. A spirit is a purpose. A demon is that purpose perverted. Cassandra: That might be true with a spirit of compassion, but what is the purpose of a hunger demon? Solas: Survival. Satiation. The pleasure of taste, of feeding. True hunger, however, is much darker. Think of all those who starve in this world. Mankind has itself to blame for the existence of demons. ...and that, in turn, appears to skew how things evolve in Thedas itself, thus creating positive feedback loop further taking things in a certain direction. I can think of some IRL analogs... but - since we mainly have guesses and inklings when it comes to the entirety of natural processes or relationship between Earth and Fade - they're not very precise ones. And will likely lose even more accuracy if it turns out that Thedas is basically the world of embodied ideas, based on something like Plato's theory of Forms. There's a precedent for that in form of dragons that were hunted to near-extinction. Well, we saw - in later stages of the fight with Samson - that he also changes size. And Corypheus is in a category of his own So the effect appears to be magical. After all, Solas is slightly taller and more broad-shouldered than modern elves, but he is nowhere near as tall as Sentinels and (judging from descriptions) neither is Felassan. And these guys are still ancient elves. Perhaps the size is a variable that can be controlled by those who can do it, or it has something to do with the rate at which someone is channeling magic or something.
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Post by gervaise21 on Dec 21, 2018 17:06:43 GMT
So what people are saying is that when Solas says for his world to return our world has to die, he isn't really meaning the whole natural world but simply the predominant human civilisation, despite the words "as the world burnt in the raw chaos". May be he does simply mean there would be widespread anarchy and rebellion, as there was after he shut the gods away, and so the world burned more metaphorically than literally.
You see it is true to say that some civilisations currently on the fringes, the Rivaini, the Avvar, and the Dalish, who are largely comfortable with magic (although the Dalish aren't so happy about spirits as the other two) might actually flourish in a world with a free flow of magic. The Fog People on Seheron might also benefit. However, that is not the sense that I got from what Solas said. Enjoy what time you have left sounded pretty ominous to me. I mean to be honest I wouldn't mind particularly if the dominant empires, Orlais, Tevinter and the Qun crashed and burned but I really got the sense that the rest would go down with them.
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Post by midnight tea on Dec 21, 2018 17:51:20 GMT
So what people are saying is that when Solas says for his world to return our world has to die, he isn't really meaning the whole natural world but simply the predominant human civilisation, despite the words "as the world burnt in the raw chaos". May be he does simply mean there would be widespread anarchy and rebellion, as there was after he shut the gods away, and so the world burned more metaphorically than literally. You see it is true to say that some civilisations currently on the fringes, the Rivaini, the Avvar, and the Dalish, who are largely comfortable with magic (although the Dalish aren't so happy about spirits as the other two) might actually flourish in a world with a free flow of magic. The Fog People on Seheron might also benefit. However, that is not the sense that I got from what Solas said. Enjoy what time you have left sounded pretty ominous to me. I mean to be honest I wouldn't mind particularly if the dominant empires, Orlais, Tevinter and the Qun crashed and burned but I really got the sense that the rest would go down with them. Solas does have a penchant for obfuscation and double-meaning - and we do know that he considers his act of saving the world as also an act of its destruction. He doesn't appear to be ambiguous when he deems whatever he's planning to do as something terrible, so I don't really question that part... but then we have to consider that it's not just literal death and destruction that are terrible for Solas. The abrupt paradigm shift or changes forced on unsuspecting people would more than likely be counted into that too. IMO the difficulty of assessing what Solas actually means stems from the fact that we don't really know what death is or means to an ancient, immortal being - though my suspicion is that by that he may also mean things or people changing to a point where they don't resemble what they were previously OR being quite thoroughly forgotten ( "they are not gone so long as you remember them"). Anyway - if the status quo changes (be it because of actions of Solas/else, or 'just' a paradigm shift) we're likely going to see some measure of chaos either way. Some things, institutions or countries will likely fall apart, as they tend to do when facing change, rebellion or challenge to established ideas. Such change would likely be more violent or... vivid in a world where ideas are more than just something abstract.
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Dec 21, 2018 20:10:29 GMT
So what people are saying is that when Solas says for his world to return our world has to die, he isn't really meaning the whole natural world but simply the predominant human civilisation, despite the words "as the world burnt in the raw chaos". May be he does simply mean there would be widespread anarchy and rebellion, as there was after he shut the gods away, and so the world burned more metaphorically than literally. You see it is true to say that some civilisations currently on the fringes, the Rivaini, the Avvar, and the Dalish, who are largely comfortable with magic (although the Dalish aren't so happy about spirits as the other two) might actually flourish in a world with a free flow of magic. The Fog People on Seheron might also benefit. However, that is not the sense that I got from what Solas said. Enjoy what time you have left sounded pretty ominous to me. I mean to be honest I wouldn't mind particularly if the dominant empires, Orlais, Tevinter and the Qun crashed and burned but I really got the sense that the rest would go down with them. Solas does have a penchant for obfuscation and double-meaning - and we do know that he considers his act of saving the world as also an act of its destruction. He doesn't appear to be ambiguous when he deems whatever he's planning to do as something terrible, so I don't really question that part... but then we have to consider that it's not just literal death and destruction that are terrible for Solas. The abrupt paradigm shift or changes forced on unsuspecting people would more than likely be counted into that too. IMO the difficulty of assessing what Solas actually means stems from the fact that we don't really know what death is or means for an ancient, immortal being - though my suspicion is that by that he may also mean things or people changing to a point where they don't resemble what they were previously OR being quite thoroughly forgotten ( "they are not gone so long as you remember them"). Anyway - if the status quo changes (be it because of actions of Solas/else, or 'just' a paradigm shift) we're likely going to see some measure of chaos either way. Some things, institutions or countries will likely fall apart, as they tend to do when facing change, rebellion or challenge to established ideas. Such change would likely be more violent or... vivid in a world where ideas are more than just something abstract. Whenever I think about what's going to happen, this "raw chaos" that Solas talks about, I liken it to something like all the electrical power going out in the real world... for good. The raw chaos of folks adjusting to that would be similar, methinks.
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Post by colfoley on Dec 21, 2018 20:13:23 GMT
Solas does have a penchant for obfuscation and double-meaning - and we do know that he considers his act of saving the world as also an act of its destruction. He doesn't appear to be ambiguous when he deems whatever he's planning to do as something terrible, so I don't really question that part... but then we have to consider that it's not just literal death and destruction that are terrible for Solas. The abrupt paradigm shift or changes forced on unsuspecting people would more than likely be counted into that too. IMO the difficulty of assessing what Solas actually means stems from the fact that we don't really know what death is or means for an ancient, immortal being - though my suspicion is that by that he may also mean things or people changing to a point where they don't resemble what they were previously OR being quite thoroughly forgotten ( "they are not gone so long as you remember them"). Anyway - if the status quo changes (be it because of actions of Solas/else, or 'just' a paradigm shift) we're likely going to see some measure of chaos either way. Some things, institutions or countries will likely fall apart, as they tend to do when facing change, rebellion or challenge to established ideas. Such change would likely be more violent or... vivid in a world where ideas are more than just something abstract. Whenever I think about what's going to happen, this "raw chaos" that Solas talks about, I liken it to something like all the electrical power going out in the real world... for good. The raw chaos of folks adjusting to that would be similar, methinks. more like 19th century humans getting all our electrical power in a finger snap.
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Post by midnight tea on Dec 21, 2018 20:29:51 GMT
Whenever I think about what's going to happen, this "raw chaos" that Solas talks about, I liken it to something like all the electrical power going out in the real world... for good. The raw chaos of folks adjusting to that would be similar, methinks. more like 19th century humans getting all our electrical power in a finger snap. With that said, in the spirit of upcoming holidays...
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Post by vertigomez on Dec 22, 2018 1:20:38 GMT
Sorry to interrupt the current line of discussion (didn't know where else to post this) but how big of a time gap do you guys think there'll be between Trespasser and DA4, in-universe?
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Post by bshep on Dec 22, 2018 1:23:41 GMT
Less than 5 years would be my guess.
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Post by phoray on Dec 22, 2018 1:27:32 GMT
Sorry to interrupt the current line of discussion (didn't know where else to post this) but how big of a time gap do you guys think there'll be between Trespasser and DA4, in-universe? Haven't the comics sort of glossed over 6-12 months? and the writer of the comics hinted there may be one more comic. So let's say, a year. Anymore and you think Solas is seriously twiddling his thumbs. I mean, he ate Mythal, he took control of the Eluvian Network... The Qunari are full blown attacking Tevinter, distracting his only potential batch of magical foes quite well. what else does he need? Is there going to be a planetary alignment of the stars he's waiting for?
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