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Post by SwobyJ on Dec 9, 2018 2:41:05 GMT
I'm not trolling. I like most Bioware villains, but at this point after the last few games, I wonder if there's some diversity that could happen.
*apologies, I haven't played BG or NWN games **when I say a race, I may mean that's how they appear, or seem coded as (mixture of voicing, accent, cultural inspiration; eg Saren as 'white' from mix of very western voice and Turian cultural Roman influence --- basically what most of us may consciously or subconsciously recognize)
BG - Sarevok - White Male BGII - Irenicus - White Male BGII - Amelyssan - White Female KOTOR - Malak - White Male (perhaps you could add Revan themselves as an 'antagonist' of sorts, and they can be a variety) JE - Master Li - Asian Male ME - Saren - White Male ME - Sovereign - White Male (and this is where you think I'm trolling, but I refer to Sovereign's voice actor that is a white male that still sounds like a white male will more likely sound like in NA) DAO - Loghain - White Male DAO - The Archdemon - N/A or Female(?) DAOA - The Architect - White Male DAOA - The Mother - White Female ME2 - Harbinger - White Male (again...) DAII - Anders - White Male DAII - Merideth - White Female SWTOR - Won't get into class stories so will just point at the top - The Emperor - White Male (but the game's major stories do have a variety, but typically white, and usually male) .. ME3 - Illusive Man - White Male .. DAI - Corypheus - White Male .. DAI - Solas - White Male .. MEA - Archon - White Male
Clear exceptions bolded. Suspect entries italicized.
Even if you ignore all the suspect entries (robots, aliens), or even the racial argument (many of these 'Whites' are weak placements), that's at least a lot of men, and plenty of more western culture around them. When you see the cultural influences around most of these villains, it often seems to stem from places like Rome (Archon), Britain (Loghain), USA (Illusive Man). I think this is basically fine. There's a lot of characters one can create from negative aspects of these histories, and I'm into seeing more of that.
And Bioware isn't totally exclusive. While the main antagonists are almost never female, a good number of secondary ones are, and many tertiary opponents are as well. We also see a number of opponents in general being of various races and cultural analogous diversity.
But I finally found myself irked at Anthem's recent trailer. Another big imposing bad guy, sounding American but otherwise a techno-Corypheus. So far.
Bioware has done at least one of the best jobs in attempting diversity of the protagonist (choice), and when not that, then at least of companions and other secondary characters, but after the last few games and this announcement, I found myself internally 'offended yawning' at the setup we have. Sure they may end up great, be intriguing and surprising, and so on. But I easily made the snap judgement that I've seen this before, way more often than not in Bioware games, and it'll likely be as I expect (cartoonish baddy, relatively little character, big masculine force we challenge and defeat).
Granted, typically there's nothing overt that connects the antagonist's antagonism to their gender or race or whichever else major identity factor. Maybe there's something about Loghain's character being partially how he is through his being a father, or manhood, but the more epic scale (of the character power level) we get, the less of that we hear. But I think representation isn't just in what we roleplay as, but should be everywhere if the scale of the story is large enough, and Bioware scale is plenty large.
And it may never happen, but as even a gay man, I really wouldn't mind a gay villain and Bioware can just take this as a test of their abilities to include clear acknowledgement of that, subvert both LGBT advocates and anti-SJW preconceptions, while still not making the whole character about their gayness. Just be there, and be great to oppose.
TLDR; I'd love for a Bioware game, ranging from some other villain reveal in Anthem to the next Mass Effect game, to have a central villain that's a woman, or non-white, or non-straight, or non-western quality. Sometimes it is pure representation of our own human diversity, but sometimes it is because I want a villain (perhaps a sympathetic one) that's more like me, or like others. Or because I want to see a female character do kickass baddie scenes too.
That one of the few times I saw that was with Merideth, and that it was while I was too busy with confusion at what she was doing, is a shame, in my opinion. Kreya was one of my all time favorite antagonists. And I hope as DA moves 'north', certain regions like Tevinter, Rivain, get their due and we don't instead get some white male attacker from Orlais in the big trailers.
If this topic gets too flamed, just delete it.
EDIT: Indeed some things come to mind. When we play Trespasser, well there's Vidasalla. I could go on, but I mean that I understand we fight/oppose many women and some non-white/coded characters. So I'm specifically talking about what may qualify as 'apex' antagonist. The one that was 'worth it' to reach the end to defeat, or else the biggest enemy we have to handle. The one we may see in trailers as the important ones, unless they're part of a twist (but even then, we see it later, like in the recent DA4 trailer) with Solas).
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Dec 9, 2018 2:48:37 GMT
I take issue with your use of "white male".
Zez-Kai El, Jedi Master in TSL and appears white, but voiced by a black actor. Yes, this is not a BioWare game, but the point remains.
A voice acting job is a voice acting job. Garrus is not a white male, lol.
So, you lost any point on me there.
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Post by simit on Dec 9, 2018 2:54:23 GMT
I dont particularly care what colour, gender or sexual orientation the villain is, aslong as there good
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Post by SwobyJ on Dec 9, 2018 2:56:18 GMT
I take issue with your use of "white male". Zez-Kai El, Jedi Master in TSL and appears white, but voiced by a black actor. Yes, this is not a BioWare game, but the point remains. A voice acting job is a voice acting job. Garrus is not a white male, lol. So, you lost any point on me there. The point doesn't remain at all. Indeed, it isn't Bioware, so it shouldn't be brought up except to compare TO Bioware. As I did when bringing up my appreciation for Kreya. Garrus isn't a white male. But you seem unaware of or disagree with the concept of coding (and it isn't just an activist lingo thing). Garrus ain't a white male, but he sure as hell comes from a vision of a jaded white male cop that doesn't play by the rules (an older trope that more recently has been played and subverted a lot, but exists nonetheless). The immediate association by you or others might not be that they're white or male, but the writers almost certainly source from images of films and shows that had these characters almost exclusively white and male, and casting of Garrus was almost surely (it is all a degree of speculation) locked in as having to be a white male or someone that can sound more like the typical expectations of a white male, to follow the trope. And as such, if most people were tasked with drawing a human version of Garrus, I can guarantee you that they will draw a white human male. As such: www.google.ca/search?q=human+garrus&rlz=1C1CHBF_enCA752CA752&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjqmp3r35HfAhWDTN8KHT7oC8IQ_AUIDigB&biw=1536&bih=723Regardless, I think my use of 'white male' is at least flawed. It was a gross oversimplification of what I want to communicate. But I think some will still understand.
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Post by SwobyJ on Dec 9, 2018 2:59:43 GMT
I dont particularly care what colour, gender or sexual orientation the villain is, aslong as there good For the long time, I haven't either, but I guess you could say the Anthem trailer triggered me? I think one of my first thoughts was 'yet again? that's so... lazy (for a company committed to diversity at least)'. (But I also have seen almost all elements of Anthem's story shown so far to be that, with few exceptions. We'll see.) Only other time I think social politics has triggered me in regards to Bioware was with Gil's romance in MEA. Not anything so bad before that. It seems that creative laziness (for Gil it was his writing, not surface features) is what does it to me. Like I was getting at, if the antagonists of DA4 and ME5 end up on the similar vein of ME3-Anthem, I'll just assume that Bioware has 5 minute brainstorm sessions about this and settle on what is most comfortable and leave it at that.
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Post by arcanistranger on Dec 9, 2018 3:03:00 GMT
Okay, so you want diversity in villains, but only acknowledge one villain per game, and also claim an alien is "white." And now a dude in a suit whose skin we haven't seen is also "white."
Your ideology is a parody of what other people think BioWare's is, and I don't think that's a coincidence.
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Post by SwobyJ on Dec 9, 2018 3:15:20 GMT
Okay, so you want diversity in villains, but only acknowledge one villain per game, and also claim an alien is "white." -I have made the mistake of mixing villain with central antagonist, but what I mean is the latter. Some corrupt asari in ME2, one that someone can claim is coded female (insert flamewar), is still not the central antagonist that gets the greater screentime, importance, marketing. -I acknowledged more than one per game if I felt that they had enough focus. But rarely does any video game have more than a couple or few central antagonists. -Racial coding. Something Bioware has seemingly tried to avoid being so white-focused lately, with such casting like Kumail Nanjiani as a salarian (to reflect diverse salarian voices/accents), or angara occasionally having similar qualities to Africans or Australian Indigenous (to connect through the colonization narrative). The alien isn't white, but the writing has various inspirations that reflects towards us in turn. Again, when people are asked to draw Garrus as a human, they will almost certainly draw a white male. But Samara? Or Jaal? Perhaps not. The Quarians for example are confirmed to be inspired by the Virgin Mary through their fashion. That has many particular real-world associations, modern and historical, but those associations cannot be claimed to be, for example, 'Japanese' in anything but the most disingenuous sense. They also have Eastern European, Middle Eastern and very very obvious Jewish inspirations (down to regional planet names in the galaxy map, and their own names). But we haven't had a Quarian antagonist. We have had American-analogue antagonists, and we have had a Turian, and Bioware lifts off a majority of Turian inspiration from ancient Rome. Similar happens again with the Archon (but Greek). Both European. EDIT: In any case, you can remove the alien antagonist entirely (to be for or against my argument) and for humans you'd still have almost no central female antagonists, and none without white or lighter skin, with appearances that much outside of historical Europe, maybe Middle-East. I think Bioware has done lots in all or nearly all other respects. It is particularly in the central antagonist area that I raise my eyebrow at this point. (Though I have seen some asks from others for a black female romance; something that I think has never happened in all of this 1.5+ decades.)
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Post by SwobyJ on Dec 9, 2018 3:16:06 GMT
Okay, so you want diversity in villains, but only acknowledge one villain per game, and also claim an alien is "white." And now a dude in a suit whose skin we haven't seen is also "white." Your ideology is a parody of what other people think BioWare's is, and I don't think that's a coincidence. What ideology is that?
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Dec 9, 2018 4:15:19 GMT
The whole list is a bit reductive, don't you think?
I have to object to the following being cast as "villains": Loghain, Anders, Merideth, Illusive Man, Solas.
Some start out as villains and then redeem themselves, or at least repent. Others start out neutral or heroes and then become antagonists, if not outright villains.
If being a villain at any point in their history counts forever, then your list needs to be extended with characters like Isabela, Blackwall, Vivienne, and Ronald Taylor.
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Post by SwobyJ on Dec 9, 2018 4:24:39 GMT
The whole list is a bit reductive, don't you think? I have to object to the following being cast as "villains": Loghain, Anders, Merideth, Illusive Man, Solas. Some start out as villains and then redeem themselves, or at least repent. Others start out neutral or heroes and then become antagonists, if not outright villains. If being a villain at any point in their history counts forever, then your list needs to be extended with characters like Isabela, Blackwall, and Vivienne. -it is reductive, but when it is reduced to central antagonists, that's what we got; I think it makes enough sense at this point but 5 and especially 10 years ago there wouldn't be enough of a Bioware library to compare between. I got 'triggered' after noticing the sequence of Illusive Man, Corypheus (and/or Solas), Archon (alien but big basically a big guy), and this new Monitor. Basically, where's the ladies, and less NA/Euro feeling people. Get me more! And Merideth, while antagonizing Hawke, wasn't anything central until right near the end. Of course some will take this as me 'wanting less white men'. It isn't. The OP list was just the most direct (though most socially dangerous, seeing some of the responses) way to put it. -you're right, and I should have said central antagonists, not villains (though most are indeed utterly villainous at some point) -I place villainy in context of the placement in the protagonist's story. IMO even Isabella betraying and running off wasn't very villainous but selfish. Blackwall committed a villainous or shameful act, but wasn't the villain to the Inquisitor (even in the storyline of you punishing him). Etc. Regardless, I should have said central antagonist.
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Post by lennybusker on Dec 9, 2018 5:55:07 GMT
I think this is a fair point, and it's good that you brought up Kreia, because for my money she is quite literally the best written NPC of all time. Though in her case it has little to do with her being a woman and more to do with being written by Chris Avellone.
I would like to see more diversity in villains, but I'd settle for them just being good to start with.
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Post by SwobyJ on Dec 9, 2018 8:35:28 GMT
I think this is a fair point, and it's good that you brought up Kreia, because for my money she is quite literally the best written NPC of all time. Though in her case it has little to do with her being a woman and more to do with being written by Chris Avellone. I would like to see more diversity in villains, but I'd settle for them just being good to start with.
Of course.
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Post by helios969 on Dec 9, 2018 9:36:50 GMT
Uh, huh. You can bet if the majority of VO's were black males someone else would be bitchin' that Bioware was typecasting blacks as villains...or if there was an even spread of male/female/minorities another would be crying how the SJW's have ruined the industry. Let's not worry about inane bs.
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Post by officerdonnz on Dec 9, 2018 19:53:24 GMT
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Post by copper on Dec 9, 2018 21:53:45 GMT
I'm not sure I agree that aliens, darkspawn, and reapers count as white. Westernized sure, but that goes for the settings they come from as a whole.
As far as villains go, I'm happy if they have any goal other than to destroy the world/galaxy for reasons that are never fully explained, so my bar is pretty low.
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Post by SwobyJ on Dec 9, 2018 21:58:10 GMT
I'm not sure I agree that aliens, darkspawn, and reapers count as white. Westernized sure, but that goes for the settings they come from as a whole. As far as villains go, I'm happy if they have any goal other than to destroy the world/galaxy for reasons that are never fully explained, so my bar is pretty low. Again not actually 'white', but if one were tasked to draw a human version of the Architect, with how 'westernized' the presentation is, they'd likely be drawn as white. Not necessarily though, so sure we can strike these entries out if we wish. And yes, beyond all my issues here, the bigger one is that Bioware leans on 'we will destroy you all, and you'll never understand or comprehend' more than any RPG developer I know. EDIT: the Anthem antagonist won't necessarily be that. They're positioned in that sort of overblown way so far, but the stated motivation has to do with something protective of the world and its people, so that's different. But even while Corypheus was all 'protective' of 'his' world, he could still be often distilled into 'muahaha I kill and destroy things because me bad'. There's what the deep loreseekers find... and there's what the younger teen players see in marketing material.
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Post by OdanUrr on Dec 9, 2018 22:04:00 GMT
I'm gonna echo lennybusker here, just give me well-written villains. No doubt if BioWare were to give us a villain with a Jamaican accent (ala ME3's Javik), someone would write an article on "The Demonization of Immigrants by Western Games Culture." Come to think of it, someone probably already has.
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Post by bshep on Dec 10, 2018 1:10:11 GMT
I'm gonna echo lennybusker here, just give me well-written villains. No doubt if BioWare were to give us a villain with a Jamaican accent (ala ME3's Javik), someone would write an article on "The Demonization of Immigrants by Western Games Culture." Come to think of it, someone probably already has. Yeah i will go with that too.
This thread is strange...
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Post by SwobyJ on Dec 10, 2018 2:24:38 GMT
I'm gonna echo lennybusker here, just give me well-written villains. No doubt if BioWare were to give us a villain with a Jamaican accent (ala ME3's Javik), someone would write an article on "The Demonization of Immigrants by Western Games Culture." Come to think of it, someone probably already has. I think Bioware can safely dismiss such articles.
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Post by lennybusker on Dec 10, 2018 2:30:42 GMT
I hate when people make "well then other people will complain" counter-arguments. Yes, very astute observation, people complain. That's no reason to not do something good. If BioWare gave everyone who bought their next game a Ferrari then there'd be people complaining "what, no Lambo?" Complaints are either with or without merit. The latter can and should be roundly ignored.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Dec 10, 2018 16:42:58 GMT
I hate when people make "well then other people will complain" counter-arguments. Yes, very astute observation, people complain. That's no reason to not do something good. If BioWare gave everyone who bought their next game a Ferrari then there'd be people complaining "what, no Lambo?" Complaints are either with or without merit. The latter can and should be roundly ignored. Too bad that we, societally, can't seem to agree on what complaints have merit.
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Post by SwobyJ on Dec 10, 2018 17:08:33 GMT
I recognize that my thread post was strange. I'm not used to speaking about such topics.
But I just listed to a DA podcast where they talked about variety of features they'd like to see for once, or more of, in romance characters or general companions. Some of this was exclusively in-universe like human/elf/dwarf/qunari and aspects of them (a Tal-Vashoth Qunari), but some were not (a FEMALE Tal-Vashoth Qunari, as the last two were followers and MALE). While broad perspectives of characters in fiction are almost never totally dictated by broad identifying characteristics (gender, orientation, race), representation can matter more than you may think, and having relatable characteristics can be welcoming - something I'm at least certain Bioware developers desire. As well, as I was meaning earlier, it just flexes creativity. When I see the sequence of Illusive Man, Corypheus (+Solas), and Archon, with many very similar characteristics (even if surface ones), I tend to think, at this point of a *sequence* happening, that this is a particular something Bioware isn't trying hard at. A small blind spot, but a blind spot nonetheless.
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Iakus
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Iakus on Dec 10, 2018 17:41:47 GMT
I'm not trolling. I like most Bioware villains, but at this point after the last few games, I wonder if there's some diversity that could happen. BG - Saverok - White Male Wut?
Voiced by: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Michael_Richardson
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Posts: 2,079 Likes: 2,102
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by SwobyJ on Dec 10, 2018 17:55:11 GMT
I'm not trolling. I like most Bioware villains, but at this point after the last few games, I wonder if there's some diversity that could happen. BG - Saverok - White Male Wut?
Voiced by: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Michael_Richardson
Got me. This is why I stated I didn't play those games (well, I'm part into BG1).
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Praise the Justicat!
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Post by Pounce de León on Dec 10, 2018 17:57:52 GMT
I recognize that my thread post was strange. I'm not used to speaking about such topics. But I just listed to a DA podcast where they talked about variety of features they'd like to see for once, or more of, in romance characters or general companions. Some of this was exclusively in-universe like human/elf/dwarf/qunari and aspects of them (a Tal-Vashoth Qunari), but some were not (a FEMALE Tal-Vashoth Qunari, as the last two were followers and MALE). While broad perspectives of characters in fiction are almost never totally dictated by broad identifying characteristics (gender, orientation, race), representation can matter more than you may think, and having relatable characteristics can be welcoming - something I'm at least certain Bioware developers desire. As well, as I was meaning earlier, it just flexes creativity. When I see the sequence of Illusive Man, Corypheus (+Solas), and Archon, with many very similar characteristics (even if surface ones), I tend to think, at this point of a *sequence* happening, that this is a particular something Bioware isn't trying hard at. A small blind spot, but a blind spot nonetheless. I stopped reading when spotting the gender and race list. There is already enough trolling with racial and gender profiling. And it has little to do with character crafting.
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