monkeylungs
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Post by monkeylungs on Jan 12, 2019 0:33:56 GMT
- A developer can say a thing is true, but for some gamers, lies are assumed to be the only truth.
They bring a bit of this on themselves and it isn't always intentional either. Big organizations and members of them just have this unwillingness to be blunt or over-commit and held to what they say because of the nature of the world now. Everything is recorded, everyone remembers every damn thing you say and they throw it right back in your face regardless of circumstance. There is an easy tendency to forget that even big giant organizations are made up of mainly just regular folk. But they have a responsibility to tow the line if they want to keep their jobs so PR is just going to be PR.
And gamers have been lied to plenty in the past and it seems almost natural to extend those feelings of disappointment to any interaction regarding future PR.
For Bioware explicitly they are still feeling the sting of the ME3 endings ... I won't reiterate but much of what was told to fans was not what was actually seen at the culmination of the trilogy. And Bioware has it worse off because Bioware fans are some passionate and involved humans that love these fictional worlds BECAUSE these fictional worlds are so damn amazing. A misstep for a Bioware title is not like a misstep when you fuck up a release of cart racer 420, even if cart racer 420 sells more copies. There can be 1/10 the physical amount of fans for a Bioware game that will make 1,000,000 times the noise of fans of many other games because of the emotional connection people feel to this fiction. That shit's Bioware's fault for being so awesome at it.
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Post by monkeylungs on Jan 12, 2019 0:35:51 GMT
what is mtx, not all of us are young and hip. I did one of those microtransactions(MTX) notation thingies earlier because microtransactions is many letters long. I will try to remember to do so in each relevant post. I am not very good at typing so I get lazy.
EDIT: I am not young. Not old but not young ... I do remember when there where no computers to play RPG's on.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jan 12, 2019 2:33:26 GMT
what is mtx, not all of us are young and hip. Short-hand for microtransactions, which is a euphemism for stuff in a game that you have to buy above and beyond what came in the box/download.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jan 12, 2019 2:36:42 GMT
Sorry, Sofa, but I don't think that's such a great example of Bioware PR. You just don't feed trolls with attention. Gamble should have just ignored/blocked him. Full disclosure: I've asked Gamble legit questions in Twitter and got no response, so I'm also jealous. Had someone asked a civil question, or even stated a reasonable doubt, an answer would have been fine. But these kinds of issues aren't going to be solved in Twitter, and hearts & minds aren't going to be swayed by one thread of tweets.
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monkeylungs
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Post by monkeylungs on Jan 12, 2019 2:43:54 GMT
He still handled the situation with class though! He is kind of damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. Overall Bioware is representing like the OG's they are with Anthem. Not shying away from criticism and showing so much of their game. Their PR campaign and this forum are the primary reasons I decided to preorder.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jan 12, 2019 2:52:21 GMT
He still handled the situation with class though! "Stop trolling my mentions or I'll block you?" That comes across more like this troll got under his skin.
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Post by monkeylungs on Jan 12, 2019 2:54:19 GMT
He still handled the situation with class though! "Stop trolling my mentions or I'll block you?" That comes across more like this troll got under his skin. I understand yet still feel for the guy. Hope that makes sense. I think he handled pretty well.
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Post by Hrulj on Jan 12, 2019 17:39:51 GMT
Anthem will fail. Probably. If it doesn't we'll see EA push for micro. Guarantee it.
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Post by smilesja on Jan 12, 2019 17:42:20 GMT
Sorry, Sofa, but I don't think that's such a great example of Bioware PR. You just don't feed trolls with attention. Gamble should have just ignored/blocked him. Full disclosure: I've asked Gamble legit questions in Twitter and got no response, so I'm also jealous. Had someone asked a civil question, or even stated a reasonable doubt, an answer would have been fine. But these kinds of issues aren't going to be solved in Twitter, and hearts & minds aren't going to be swayed by one thread of tweets. That and it’ll fuel the click bait youtubers in saying how the person was a victim.
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Post by SofaJockey on Jan 12, 2019 18:37:26 GMT
Sorry, Sofa, but I don't think that's such a great example of Bioware PR. You just don't feed trolls with attention. Gamble should have just ignored/blocked him. I agree with the notion that the poster had annoyed Mike, because the poster continued to debate why it was all such shit yet continued to have Mike copied into the responses. I agree that a block doesn't require being signposted, but what then, the poster tweets: 'I've been blocked for pointing out the truth...'? It's so difficult to navigate these things. Mike, Mark, Ben and Jon have tweeted literally hundreds of answers, any one of which could have landed wrong or have been misconstrued. I think it's impressive.
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Post by river82 on Jan 12, 2019 20:26:43 GMT
Sorry, Sofa, but I don't think that's such a great example of Bioware PR. You just don't feed trolls with attention. Gamble should have just ignored/blocked him. I agree with the notion that the poster had annoyed Mike, because the poster continued to debate why it was all such shit yet continued to have Mike copied into the responses. I agree that a block doesn't require being signposted, but what then, the poster tweets: 'I've been blocked for pointing out the truth...'? It's so difficult to navigate these things. Mike, Mark, Ben and Jon have tweeted literally hundreds of answers, any one of which could have landed wrong or have been misconstrued. I think it's impressive. This is why all those loyal Bioware defenders did more harm than good. One guy shouting into the abyss is nothing ... unless you make it something, which is what all those people rushing to defend Bioware did. A poster tweeting "I've been blocked for pointing out the truth" won't resonate with anyone other than people who already feel the same way about Bioware. And yes it is difficult to navigate these things, which is why typically companies have PR guys or community management guys specifically for this
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Post by SofaJockey on Jan 12, 2019 20:31:36 GMT
And yes it is difficult to navigate these things, which is why typically companies have PR guys or community management guys specifically for this Though community management folk often get beaten up more even more than devs, because they don't have a deep understanding of the product. You'll remember Battlefront II's: “The intent is to provide players with a sense of pride and accomplishment for unlocking different heroes,”
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Jan 12, 2019 21:00:51 GMT
And yes it is difficult to navigate these things, which is why typically companies have PR guys or community management guys specifically for this Though community management folk often get beaten up more even more than devs, because they don't have a deep understanding of the product. You'll remember Battlefront II's: “The intent is to provide players with a sense of pride and accomplishment for unlocking different heroes,” This tells me something different. Namely, that marketing is a shit job that is of a failed paradigm. Mad Men can fuck right off. The biggest problem in my world today is people shoving products down my throat in new and clever ways, that I consciously avoid buying as a reward for their nuisance. Salesmen. The worst. They know how to sell things, not necessarily what it is they're selling. That is an integrity problem, yet that is also business as usual. I hate business as usual. As far as this all relates to the topic at hand - AAA marketing has completely failed to attract my attention or dollars. The only "AAA" titles I own are older PS3 games, and the BioWare games (KotOR forward) excluding MEA; got Witcher 3 for free with my Strix 970; got DE:HR on sale on Steam for cheap. I don't buy their garbage. They have to make a good game, and I might buy it. Marketing dollars should be spent on game development, and then the game should speak for itself. Wouldn't need so many MTX if we didn't have to pay a bunch of douchesuits in Manhattan for our glitzy ad campaign that misrepresents our product.
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Post by Energizer Bunny 211 on Jan 13, 2019 15:55:06 GMT
Personally, I find it quite sad that so many people feel entitled to use Twitter (or Social Media in General) as a platform and REASON to harrass Developers with inappropriate behaviour, blantant disrepect, rudeness and many other forms of anti-social behaviour that in most other respects would be understood to be unacceptable. Yet they do this because the Internet gives them power that they would otherwise be lacking and they feel secure to do so behind a wall of anonymity. But still that should not excuse their unacceptable behaviour. I sympathize with the Developers and hard-working staff at Bioware who are not only doing what they love to do, but are working hard to create a product which they hope we as their fans will really enjoy. And why is it that there are those of us who feel this is a reason to treat them badly? At the end of the day, whether or not someone has enjoyed a game, likes a game or even becomes extremely passionate about a game for any reason...well, that is on them. And we are all entitled to our opinions and feelings on any given subject. But what we should never do is belittle others for their efforts because of our feelings as if THE WAY I FEEL about 'x' gives me every right to treat you badly because you did 'X +2" which resulted in X,A,V,C or D. In other words, in this context....Disgruntled/disappointed fans of a game company or game (product) should not belittle, harrass, disrespect or in other ways treat any employee of Bioware badly because the fan did not enjoy the game (for whatever reason) and so their lack of enjoyment is because (Bioware) made the game to begin with...which in turn has given the fan the right to feel this way and therefore say all kinds of negative things to any Bioware employee, which not only fosters an attitude of entitlement among gaming fans, but also creates an atmosphere of mistrust, uncertainty, hurt and general negativity between a game company and their fans.
Why should any game company make a game to release to their fans, if their fans are in turn going to treat them badly because of it? They don't have to do this. They could just make the games for themselves, for their own fulfillment. But they don't. They make games not only because they are all passionate about games as an art form and medium of entertainment, but because they want to share them with us, their fans. We should count ourselves lucky that we can be entertained and enthralled by the worlds, characters and stories that companies like Bioware works to create.
The employees of Bioware (Ben Iriving, Mike Gamble, Jon Warner and others on the development team of ANTHEM), have my respect for their passion about the games they make, and also for handling the 'blacklash' on social media with humility, grace, class and character. For this they will always have my respect.
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Post by river82 on Jan 13, 2019 20:03:58 GMT
Why should any game company make a game to release to their fans, if their fans are in turn going to treat them badly because of it? They don't have to do this. They could just make the games for themselves, for their own fulfillment. But they don't. They make games not only because they are all passionate about games as an art form and medium of entertainment, but because they want to share them with us, their fans. We should count ourselves lucky that we can be entertained and enthralled by the worlds, characters and stories that companies like Bioware works to create. You had an okay post up until about here. Developers can choose to make games for themselves, a big gaming company's priority is making money, and companies like EA or Bethesda are beholden to shareholders whose interest is that the company makes money. And while developers can choose to make a game for themselves, because they won't make money off it they'll have to do this on top of a full time job (which is exhausting), and because it's hard to get 200 people working on a hobby outside of working hours for thousands and thousands of hours, the quality of games these people will produce is greatly reduced. Developers can't go off and make a 'Dragon Age' for just themselves. The time commitment for the number of people it would require is far too great (not to mention that because it takes so much longer, the game will have very backward graphics and design once it finally finishes). They can go off an make a Grimoire: Heralds of the Winged Exemplar though. Or any other smaller indie type game for themselves. That's very possible.
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Post by Energizer Bunny 211 on Jan 13, 2019 21:17:10 GMT
Hi River. Thanks for your reply and your input. I completely agree with what you say, but I was (trying to) harkan(ing) back to a point that the Devs at Bioware said some years ago (I believe it was on the Bonus DVD for ME2 that contained the Developer Interviews) and someone said we could design games for ourselves, but we love what we do and we are passionate about our fan base, and we know that they are passionate about our games, and so we want to share the games we make with our fans Or something to that effect. I believe the point that was trying to be made was that there was a real reason (fan base) behind why they do what they do. Yes I totally agree that at the end of the day it's all about making money, and when larger Corporations such as EA, Bethesda etc have shareholders to whom they are accountable, then of course, financial profit is a must. I totally get that and I am in no way disputing that. But beyond the money, and all of the larger corporate responsibilities at play.... getting their games into the hands of dedicated fans is the driving force.
I also agree with your point about the size of the company (the number of people Bioware/EA employs in relation to the sheer number of hours and inter-collaboration between departments) that is required in order to create a stellar line-up of products that a big company like EA/Bioware, Bethesda or any other, is accustomed to doing and known for. That becomes the expected norm. And yet to shrink down, cut corners, or doing anything else that would reduce the man-power,cost etc...That would ultimately impact the overall quality of the finished product, or perhaps change the finished product altogether. Absolutely. None of what you have said is in any way in dispute. All I am saying is that the fan base, or general public even...should be appreciative of the effort and amount of work that any game developers do, because the developers are passionate about what they do enough to want to make the best game they can, and also in turn they want to share that end product with their fans. It's a lot of work, effort, skill, talent, man-power and yes, money to create video games, and fans- people in general, the public...fans who buy these games as means of entertainment, should be a little more considerate of how they treat the people who created the games. My main point that I'm trying to drive home (considering the OP on the first page) was that people need to be more considerate and respectful of others, and use Social Media more maturely and responsibly. Social Media is not a platform to be used for an excuse to treat people badly.
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monkeylungs
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by monkeylungs on Jan 13, 2019 21:36:07 GMT
Bioware has some pretty dedicated and passionate fans! I was thinking about how many Bioware games I have installed on various devices currently.
PC: BG 1 and 2 .. and the Beamdog versions as well so I don't know if Bio gets royalties on those. NWN, NWN 2 (Obsidian but maybe royalties) KoTOR, KoTOR 2 (Obsidian but maybe roylaties), DA:O, Jade Empire. Xbox 360: MET all DLC. All Dragon Age titles + all DLC for DA:O and DA2. Jade Empire PS3: DA:O and DA2 + all DLC. MET digital + MET boxed set in a container somewhere. I don't really playing discs in my consoles so if I can get digital I will. PS4: DA:I + all DLC, ME:A. Pre-order for Anthem I also have ME and DA books and comics.
I guess that's kind of how I have showed my appreciation. I never bootleg anything, ever. Not games, not movies, not music, not books, not anything.
I also try to be polite, even when I am pissed off at them, when I have criticism. Not sure if I always succeed as I'm sure I've been a dick a few times but in general I try to always treat the Bioware folks with respect when I write about them. They have brought me way too many fond memories in their fictional worlds.
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Post by river82 on Jan 13, 2019 21:54:32 GMT
I also try to be polite, even when I am pissed off at them, when I have criticism. Not sure if I always succeed as I'm sure I've been a dick a few times but in general I try to always treat the Bioware folks with respect when I write about them. They have brought me way too many fond memories in their fictional worlds. I don't try and contact the Bioware devs at all - the devs will create what they want to create and we will judge afterwards. But when I talk about their games with other fans I feel free to be as critical as I feel like at the time. I don't really see the point of this over politeness when the conversation doesn't include Bioware devs to begin with. All it does is mask what people really feel about their games in false platitudes. If you're talking with a dev, sure, there's no point in being overly critical to them so be polite. When talking with other fans though, no point to politeness other than to satisfy emotional needs.
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Post by monkeylungs on Jan 13, 2019 21:59:09 GMT
I think you can be just as critical and still be polite. You can describe why something doesn't seem like an intelligent design decision without resorting to insults and outbursts. I definitely do NOT mean to never offend. When arguing about something creative the critic will invariably offend the person being critiqued, at least a little, but this can be done in a polite fashion.
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Post by river82 on Jan 13, 2019 22:02:51 GMT
I think you can be just as critical and still be polite. You can describe why something doesn't seem like an intelligent design decision without resorting to insults and outbursts. I definitely do NOT mean to never offend. When arguing about something creative the critic will invariably offend the person being critiqued, at least a little, but this can be done in a polite fashion. The problem with politeness is it isn't just "not resorting to insults". Ever hear people say "there was something in her teeth but I didn't think it'd be polite to point out"? Or "she was wrong but it would be impolite to say it"? Have you ever answered the question "do I look fat"? Politeness is often masking the truth to make others feel better about themselves, and I see no point of going to that extreme when talking about games with other fans.
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Post by monkeylungs on Jan 13, 2019 22:04:33 GMT
Disagree. I think it is more polite for someone to tell me I have something in my teeth. Don't let me walk around all day with some broccoli fronts!
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Post by river82 on Jan 13, 2019 22:17:16 GMT
Disagree. I think it is more polite for someone to tell me I have something in my teeth. Don't let me walk around all day with some broccoli fronts! In these situations, termed politeness settings, the truth may be trivial or even hurtful to its recipient (Sweetser, 1987). To spare the feelings of the recipient and foster amicable social relations, prosocial lies are expected (DePaulo & Bell, 1996; DePaulo & Kashy, 1998).
In politeness situations (e.g., when receiving an undesirable gift), one is required not only to suppress the genuine reaction of disappointment, but also use the appropriate display rules (e.g., expressing gratitude and displaying of positive emotional expressions). Thus, examination of children’s white lie-telling behavior allows for understanding their ability at regulating and coordinating multi-channel communications.
From: White lie-telling in children for politeness purposes - www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2581483/You may or may not agree with this, politeness being a subjective thing, but the act of deception as a required attribute for politeness is regarded as standard in most parts of society. And once again, I really don't see the point of going there when talking about games with fans. I have had discussions with Bioware fans who have been quite hurt by what I've said, and I really don't care. It's a game and I have an opinion. People need to deal with that. *prosocial is behaviour beneficial to others
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Post by monkeylungs on Jan 13, 2019 22:25:57 GMT
I think I would rather steer this back to the specifics of the tweets in the OP. That person could have politely informed Mr. Gamble that they felt the microtransactions were over priced and got their point across without being rude. I probably should have just been hyper specific knowing how the internet works.
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Post by Energizer Bunny 211 on Jan 13, 2019 23:03:43 GMT
Bioware has some pretty dedicated and passionate fans! I was thinking about how many Bioware games I have installed on various devices currently. PC: BG 1 and 2 .. and the Beamdog versions as well so I don't know if Bio gets royalties on those. NWN, NWN 2 (Obsidian but maybe royalties) KoTOR, KoTOR 2 (Obsidian but maybe roylaties), DA:O, Jade Empire. Xbox 360: MET all DLC. All Dragon Age titles + all DLC for DA:O and DA2. Jade Empire PS3: DA:O and DA2 + all DLC. MET digital + MET boxed set in a container somewhere. I don't really playing discs in my consoles so if I can get digital I will. PS4: DA:I + all DLC, ME:A. Pre-order for Anthem I also have ME and DA books and comics. I guess that's kind of how I have showed my appreciation. I never bootleg anything, ever. Not games, not movies, not music, not books, not anything. I also try to be polite, even when I am pissed off at them, when I have criticism. Not sure if I always succeed as I'm sure I've been a dick a few times but in general I try to always treat the Bioware folks with respect when I write about them. They have brought me way too many fond memories in their fictional worlds. I had KOTOR 1 and 2 back in 2003, 2005...Those were actually the games that got me into RPGs and drew my attention to Bioware as a Development COmpany....Before that I was a die-hard LEC fan (X-Wing and TIE Fighter;Floppy Disk versions, Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis, Dark Forces, Jedi Knight, Jedi Outcast, Jedi Academy, FULL THROTTLE)....I played those games until I simply couldn't anymore because of PC Tech
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Post by varicite on Jan 14, 2019 3:03:31 GMT
While I know this thread has moved along to focusing on posters' particular vitriol and developers' responses to such, I think it's important to note the underlying reasoning for such behavior.
The thread topic is called "A matter of trust", which is pretty fitting, because while this Twitter user may be immature in his manner of getting his point across, he represents a rather large swathe of gamers who feel (rightfully so) that they have been maligned by such promises in the past.
"No lootboxes, no microtransactions, no pay-to-win, etc." This has become a mantra for companies who have, as he pointed out, turned right around and introduced those very things into their games. After being told one thing and shown another enough times, the correct response is to be wary of such promises. Obviously, I'm not saying to go off the deep end and simply hate unreasonably, but it's always best to take things w/ a grain of salt.
I'm personally pretty excited for Anthem, because it reminds me of ME:A's multiplayer, which I enjoyed thoroughly for a time, only in a larger setting w/ more customization. I'm all for that.
But I also feel it would be foolish to just believe developers' words blindly when there have been so MANY examples of developers going back on their words post-launch. I'm understand the reasoning behind most of these decisions, but that doesn't make the taste of that "actually, we are adding more microtransactions" pill any less bitter.
I love Bioware, and I do hope they can hit their stride once more, but as much as I love Bioware, I also distrust EA (and many other publishers, to be fair). At the end of the day, it's a business, and there's always a bottom line.
As much as I hope they stick to their guns and hope that Anthem does well, should it not, I won't be the least bit surprised if their lofty pre-launch tune turns toward something more predatory in the future. Live games take money to run, and if what they have coming in isn't enough to sustain it, that money needs to come from somewhere. That's just simple math.
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