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Post by SofaJockey on Jan 11, 2019 18:54:16 GMT
I'd like to share a fascinating Twitter conversation from last night involving Mike Gamble and a skeptical gamer. There are so many things we could unpick here, including: - You need the patience of a Saint as a gamedev lead.
- The distrust of EA and in fact many AAA publishers is so deep with some gamers to be unassailable.
- A developer can say a thing is true, but for some gamers, lies are assumed to be the only truth.
- How do you sell a game to someone that turns away merely due to it having "EA on the box'?
- What is the path to redemption after a flawed game (MEA, sure we could debate the flaws, but still flawed)
- Has 'fuck EA' become a sport on YouTube and games media comment feeds?
Personally, I think Mike Gamble handled the rather aggressive conversation well. What do you think, and about the issues raised? IMPORTANT NOTE:
These tweets are all public record, but please don't pursue (or make this about) any participant, these are not unusual views and could have involved different people on any other day.
Tweets are timed in UK time (GMT) so likely took place Thursday evening. Key conversation tweets are shown, some side digressions are omitted. The conversation:
Michael Gamble @gamblemike Oh, before I forget: the progression (xp curves) as well as general in-game economy balance will be a bit easier in the demo. We want you to earn some stuff and feel what it’s like. We will also give you 100 coins to blow on some fancy cosmetics. 389 4:25 AM - Jan 11, 2019
Michael Gamble @gamblemike I mean 100 COIN. apparently using plural is a sin.
136 4:26 AM - Jan 11, 2019
Michael Gamble @gamblemike Also I think all cosmetics cost 25 COIN in demo. Trust me that’s hella not the case in the real game 184 4:29 AM - Jan 11, 2019
Josh Josherson @napocalypse Oh trust me we know it’s $10 a skin. Can already tell by your over priced shit legion of dawn skins 3 for $20 that y’all think your slick with your ridiculous overpriced “not a lootbox” cosmetic. Fuck you anthem
1 4:33 AM - Jan 11, 2019
Kyle Carmichael @kclewis123
Guess someone won’t be playing the game then
9 4:34 AM - Jan 11, 2019
Josh Josherson @napocalypse There’s plenty of people that won’t play this mtx failure. Mtx tonplay early. Mtx LOD. Mtx non stop. Not to mention BioWare gonna tuck tail and run like they did with andromeda. And ea is involved. This games dead before it ever hits the shelves
4:36 AM - Jan 11, 2019
BlackList Gaming @archangle_29 Better off without you playing anyway less toxic players we get the better 1 4:36 AM - Jan 11, 2019
Josh Josherson @napocalypse
Nothing toxic about telling the truth how shit the game is and it’s already FULL of Mtx before it ever launches. Base product devalued bc early access pay to play early. And it’s launching early so ea gets sales bump before yearly earning report in March. Lol fuck this game
1 4:39 AM - Jan 11, 2019
PETG@AnthemPetg Oh wow! I didn’t know you could predict the future?! No one cares dude- be gone. Your negativity is a good looking as you are, Josh
4:40 AM - Jan 11, 2019
Josh Josherson @napocalypse Future is. One month after release after they dodge reviews they adding in so many p2w lootboxes and paid dlc you won’t ever have enough money to play this shit ea product. Shut it down like andromeda
4:42 AM - Jan 11, 2019
Michael Gamble @gamblemike I don’t mind good debate and contrary opinions - in fact I really respect it. If you keep trolling my mentions I’m going to block you.
9 4:43 AM - Jan 11, 2019
Josh Josherson @napocalypse Why don’t you try and defend it then? February release when ea yearly is in March? Still no guarantee that you won’t go paid dlc route or p2w lootbox after you dodge the launch reviews mentioning it( common tactic nowadays). Refund policy when you abandon like andromeda ? 4:45 AM - Jan 11, 2019
Josh Josherson @napocalypse
Call of duty said same thing before as well. Infinity warfare. Remaster. Then cod 4 and blackout. After reviews launched (positively) they tossed in so many lootboxes and mtx. Same for rdr2. It’s the new tactic say you won’t then add them in later
4:46 AM - Jan 11, 2019
Michael Gamble @gamblemike
We aren’t going to add loot boxes. It serves no purpose. The cosmetics and mtx plan is what we’ve outlined. Legion of dawn is 4 new armour packs. They aren’t just skins. Each javelin has 4 armour bits. You get 16 with LOD + wpn + other goodies
64 4:49 AM - Jan 11, 2019
Michael Gamble @gamblemike
Re Andromeda: I’m sorry you didn’t like it. Some people did. I don’t control refunds. Anthem is a different game and you can play the demo and enjoy it. I read your responses. No ill will from me.
12 4:54 AM - Jan 11, 2019
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Post by river82 on Jan 11, 2019 21:09:54 GMT
Was it really necessary to bring twitter on our lovely forum? Twitter is formed of 3 sorts of people - 1) All sorts of rabid folk. These folk have many different opinions but are similar in how rabid they are about those opinions. They are largely responsible for chasing away all the normies. 2 ) Those who use the platform professionally (who may also fit into group 1 ... but also may not) 3) Those who just post links to news.
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Post by SofaJockey on Jan 11, 2019 21:19:28 GMT
Was it really necessary to bring twitter on our lovely forum? The Twitter thread is one of our most read.
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Post by river82 on Jan 11, 2019 21:23:34 GMT
Was it really necessary to bring twitter on our lovely forum? The Twitter thread is one of our most read. Because it largely excludes group 1 and focuses on group 2. You littered the excerpt with bickering between two factions of rabids xD
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Post by Heimdall on Jan 11, 2019 21:48:14 GMT
I wonder what it’s like to type comments with that much bile
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Post by NotN7 on Jan 11, 2019 22:00:51 GMT
The Twitter thread is one of our most read. Because it largely excludes group 1 and focuses on group 2. You littered the excerpt with bickering between two factions of rabids xD Huh? no it does not anyone can chime in weather or not you have a tweeter account or not
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Post by river82 on Jan 11, 2019 22:03:48 GMT
Because it largely excludes group 1 and focuses on group 2. You littered the excerpt with bickering between two factions of rabids xD Huh? no it does not anyone can chime in weather or not you have a tweeter account or not The twitter thread links tweets from the section of people from group 2 - those who use the platform professionally. Forum members then discuss that stuff. Sofajockey linked an argument between those from group 1 - rabid people. No form of rational discussion can be initiated from the actions of these people other than "let's point and laugh at the rabid people"...
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Post by NotN7 on Jan 11, 2019 22:13:54 GMT
SO pls Indicate whom in that discussion was grp 1 and whom was 2 I only see someone who is a total ass trying to start a argument
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Post by river82 on Jan 11, 2019 22:16:50 GMT
SO pls Indicate whom in that discussion was grp 1 and whom was 2 I only see someone who is a total ass trying to start a argument Rabid does not mean arsehole, rabid means people are extreme in their support of something. Which is why he was able to initiate the argument, because people who rabidly support Bioware predictably charged into the fray, armour donned, sword out, to tell him they "didn't want his toxicity anyway" and to just leave. All the normal people just ignored him.
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Post by NotN7 on Jan 11, 2019 22:23:39 GMT
SO pls Indicate whom in that discussion was grp 1 and whom was 2 I only see someone who is a total ass trying to start a argument Rabid does not mean arsehole, rabid means people are extreme in their support of something. Which is why he was able to initiate the argument, because people who rabidly support Bioware predictably charged into the fray, armour donned, sword out, to tell him they "didn't want his toxicity anyway" and to just leave. All the normal people just ignored him. Again I ask whom? is grp 1 and grp 2 i'm not looking for generalizations either commit or well I'll leave it at that. ball is in your court i'm not going to try and guess.
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Post by river82 on Jan 11, 2019 22:24:34 GMT
Rabid does not mean arsehole, rabid means people are extreme in their support of something. Which is why he was able to initiate the argument, because people who rabidly support Bioware predictably charged into the fray, armour donned, sword out, to tell him they "didn't want his toxicity anyway" and to just leave. All the normal people just ignored him. Again I ask whom? is grp 1 and grp 2 i'm not looking for generalizations either commit or well I'll leave it at that. ball is in your court i'm not going to try and guess. I already answered twice. Everbody not named Gamble.
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Post by NotN7 on Jan 11, 2019 22:30:06 GMT
Again I ask whom? is grp 1 and grp 2 i'm not looking for generalizations either commit or well I'll leave it at that. ball is in your court i'm not going to try and guess. I already answered twice. Everbody not named Gamble. Ummm well its was once (just now) thank you for clarifying
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Post by monkeylungs on Jan 11, 2019 22:42:36 GMT
So far all the livestreams featuring Mr. Gamble and posts here about Mr. Gamble's tweets have just made me like the dude. I think he has done solid PR for Anthem.
There is a culture of what I have labeled "Negativity Spiral Hate Dogpiling" that is a real, and unfortunately powerful force right now in gaming. Youtubers make money off this, people into gaming news enjoy watching it, and developers and PR people better believe it can have an affect on sales.
Microtransactions just set some people off. My personal opinion is nuanced and determined by how the MTX are handled. If they are like gambling I am not into that aspect. If they tell me exactly what I can buy, if I so choose, I don't have problem with it. EDIT: That is not that nuanced. Pretty straightforward in fact.
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Post by OdanUrr on Jan 11, 2019 23:07:55 GMT
I don't see much by way of a conversation, to be honest. In fact, from this same Twitter thread, I think the more debatable argument could've been the one about whether or not lowering the difficulty and cost (of items) for the demo could be considered deceptive advertising. As for MTX, I always prefer to be given the option to buy the stuff I want, as opposed to gambling away via loot crates. However, we have a saying in my country that roughly translates to, "done the law, done the snare," and EA/BioWare could potentially, say, give us crap armours or skins in-game and then offer you way cooler ones via the store, with these ones either not available in-game or requiring inordinate amounts of grinding/gambling to unlock. This is basically what Ubisoft is doing with the Helix Store and Oikos the Olympian in AC:Odyssey, with the exception that you can still get some cool armours in-game through normal playthrough. PS: And here I thought only Chloe used "hella."
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Post by monkeylungs on Jan 11, 2019 23:08:44 GMT
There are so many things we could unpick here, including: - What is the path to redemption after a flawed game (MEA, sure we could debate the flaws, but still flawed)
I am pretty biased here because MEA is tied for top spot out of all ME games for me with ME1. I also still love playing ME1, gameplay included (I never hated on ME1 gameplay). ME1 is the ME I have played the most. Andromeda is way longer or it might be close in playthroughs ... I think my fastest ME1 run is like 13 hours and that is doing most sidequests (obviously just reading the dialogues not listening to all of them). I don't think I have a MEA run under 70 hours. This is all just disclosure for what follows.
For me the path to redemption is to make ME:A 2 and continue on in the spirit of part 1. Conclude the Ryder's story. Go into the deeper motivations for the exodus, the ones you had to dig for. Show me what happens with the Angara, tie up the most tantalizing loose ends presented in the story including the Jaarden and the other Arks, the full view of the power and horror of the Kett.
If they want to move past Ryder and Andromeda then give me closure and a fitting end to the story, and no soap opera styled endless storytelling cliffhanger bullshit to milk the franchise. I would love to see a trilogy featuring the Ryder's but a second game or even a massive DLC/expansion concluding the story would be more than cool with me.
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Post by monkeylungs on Jan 11, 2019 23:13:50 GMT
PS: And here I thought only Chloe used "hella." Cartman as well. Did you hella save Chloe, or hella let her die? ... hella spoilers.
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Post by OdanUrr on Jan 11, 2019 23:26:22 GMT
PS: And here I thought only Chloe used "hella." Cartman as well. Did you hella save Chloe, or hella let her die? ... hella spoilers.
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Post by monkeylungs on Jan 11, 2019 23:32:24 GMT
Sometimes the needs of the one outweigh the needs of the many.
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Post by OdanUrr on Jan 11, 2019 23:35:35 GMT
Sometimes the needs of the one outweigh the needs of the many. I actually have a video on my favourites that discusses the two endings at length and how they're equally valid depending on your interpretation of events in the game. My take was that messing with time once more to fix my mistakes flew in the face of the game's message that that's precisely what caused the issue in the first place. Here's the vid: PS: Apologies for the digression.
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Post by monkeylungs on Jan 11, 2019 23:44:44 GMT
- Has 'fuck EA' become a sport on YouTube and games media comment feeds?
Back on topic ...
I think YES.
The greater debate centers around whether they have earned some 'fuck off' and how much.
I feel like they have earned some 'fuck off' for their handling of Star Wars games and for me it has nothing to do with their handling of microtransactions (mtx) in Battlefront. It is based around the fact that in almost ten years they have had this license and all we get is Battlefront 1 and 2 for Star Wars! Travesty!
I don't have many other EA titles except 'A Way Out' which I have nothing but praise for both as a game and a product. What a cool concept in my opinion. Fun to co-op and I own a copy so I can just play it with any friend of mine over the internet and they don't have to buy it all. Just download the demo and play through with me. Pretty awesome.
I don't play sports games but I can get behind the 'fuck FIFA Ultimate Team' sentiment. That shit is the most gambly of gambling MTX systems around. Football is amazing but it is my favorite team sport on earth and I'd rather play it in RL than in video game form.
I have to have a slightly less 'fuck off' tendency just because Bioware ... I mean I get to have Mass Effect, and Dragon Age. My favorite game of all time was published while Bioware was owned by EA (DA:I) so I can't really hate too hard.
EDIT: Trying to exist in Superposition:
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Post by malgus on Jan 11, 2019 23:47:18 GMT
For Anthem, I don't think EA will be stupid enough to do what they have done with battlefront 2 lootboxes. Not necessarly because of morality but just because of basic intelligence. They are not happy with the backlash they received in 2017 and are desperate to improve their image after that downfall.
It's a bit like a ubisoft who did not put another AC unity after that debacle in 2014, not because they are honest or the friends of customer but they were just smart enough to not try it again.
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Post by smilesja on Jan 11, 2019 23:48:32 GMT
I’ll bet that guy will review bomb anthem saying it’ll have mtx.
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Jan 12, 2019 0:04:06 GMT
Their handling of the Star Wars IP is impossible to understand and egregious.
Respawn better make a good game; I want to play it already but if they blow it - holy hand grenade Batman this things gonna blow.
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Post by monkeylungs on Jan 12, 2019 0:08:23 GMT
For Anthem, I don't think EA will be stupid enough to do what they have done with battlefront 2 lootboxes. Not necessarly because of morality but just because of basic intelligence. They are not happy with the backlash they received in 2017 and are desperate to improve their image after that downfall. It's a bit like a ubisoft who did not put another AC unity after that debacle in 2014, not because they are honest or the friends of customer but they were just smart enough to not try it again.
I might have to have Ubi's back a bit here ...
Lately they have been staying the course on their games, even in the face of critical slating and massive negative fan reaction, they have held course and sunk serious dev time/money/heart into fixing their games.
Their follow ups to AC: Unity have continuously garnered increased sales, fan appreciation, and critical acclaim. The steps they took from Syndicate, to Origins, to Odyssey have been nothing short of laudable and immense.
They could have cut and run on Siege, The Division, For Honor, but they didn't they put serious work into those games.
The way they approach Odyssey currently with fan engagement and constant updates is really commendable in my opinion. And sure, it is not altruism ... they have a stake in it (they want more money), but at least they are willing to try and provide fans with value and respond to community concerns and keep fans updated. Yeah they got MTX, but they also keep releasing free and paid content for players and their patches and reactions to fan concerns over gameplay mechanics have been exemplary. They completely retooled the way the skill system works in response to fans wanting to have more depth to the levelling.
They definitely want your money but they are willing to work for it and that is pretty fucking ok with me.
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Post by Beerfish on Jan 12, 2019 0:21:48 GMT
what is mtx, not all of us are young and hip.
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