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Post by samhain444 on Feb 11, 2019 18:57:32 GMT
BioWare confirms today in this Polygon article, its intentions from the start: 'Oct. 29, 2012, - in an Edmonton, Alberta, office building ... the team that had shepherded the Mass Effect trilogy to its conclusion was charting a new course. A number of the folks in the room had spent the better part of a decade working on BioWare’s acclaimed series of sci-fi role-playing games; they were desperate to find unexplored territory for their next project, an action game codenamed “Dylan. "Super core to a BioWare game is the shared experience,” Hudson says. “So Anthem was designed as a multiplayer game from the beginning.” With a vague mission statement in place, Hudson laid down the design foundation: Dylan would be a shared world with a focus on social gaming.'www.polygon.com/2019/2/11/18214604/bioware-anthem-dragon-age-eaWell I stand corrected. Just even more reason why I hope Anthem fails. Why would you want a game to fail? A lot of these devs put 6 years into the project...why would you want what they worked on to fail?
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Post by bshep on Feb 11, 2019 18:57:50 GMT
So ahglock let me see if i understand: You ask for a confirmation to you question, then you get said confirmation from the people responsible for Anthem (the big shots of Bioware) now you change the goal and or say you don't believe what they say. I get the feeling you want them to say exactly what you want to hear more than the truth...
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Post by KaiserShep on Feb 11, 2019 19:06:09 GMT
I don't need a graph to tell me that real people are the worst kind of people there is. It’s weird to me as I’ve bumped into so few people I’d call toxic online. Thousands of hours of online games and maybe 10 hours of toxic behavior. I haven’t done much online gaming recently so maybe it’s got worse the last few years. But people complained about it back then as well. Maybe I’m just lucky but I kind of suspect it is rare people just hold onto these rare moments exaggerating the impact in their minds. Well, it was a joke. I play Destiny 2 on a daily basis and I don't really experience much toxicity at all, but in general I find a lot of randos can be quite annoying, so I chat exclusively with just a handful of people that I know the majority of the time. Thankfully, or maybe hopefully, this game's lack of PvP will at least keep the shenanigans to a minimum. When it gets back in Destiny, it can be infuriating, especially for the higher stakes stuff where cheaters and sweats abound.
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Post by SofaJockey on Feb 11, 2019 19:11:20 GMT
Just even more reason why I hope Anthem fails. Honestly, we do know your position on this...
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2019 19:20:22 GMT
I guess my take on the graph is quite a bit different than most (all?) others.
When I look at the graph, I see that ~28-29% of the respondents cite toxic players. If you eliminate the vast majority of toxic players, so that the 28% is willing to play MP, that still leaves ~72% of the respondents with reasons to avoid MP and stick with SP.
So BioWare could increase the number of folks in its customer base … who are willing to play Anthem, but that leaves the majority (nearly 3/4s) still preferring SP.
An effort to make Anthem "safe" from toxic players will quickly reach diminishing returns.
A significant portion of BioWare's customer base is looking for a SP experience … because they want the SP experience. After discovering the joys of ME3MP (and later, MEAMP), I'm certainly open to a MP experience and am giving Anthem a try. But the story still matters to me … straight up shooters bore me.
I'd hoped that Emily's question was an effort to show a large element of the customer base that wants the SP experience … evidence to take back to EA and bolster the argument for a SP DA and ME ... albeit with MP tacked on. Maybe I'm being too pessimistic, but her brief comment on the results makes me think that the main takeaway is the "toxic player" … sigh.
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Post by ahglock on Feb 11, 2019 19:33:06 GMT
Not really, they confirm the intent was MP. They don't confirm it they intended looter shooter, they don't confirm story would be kind of secondary a thing you wouldn't want to replay. They don't confirm they always intended for certain parts would be MP only. And that is again assuming this isn't just marketing crap that they and pretty much every developer throws out. Okay. go from a different direction...were there any "sources", named or otherwise, that contradict the official version of events? I'm not talking about the BSN version of the "Lone Gunmen" but stuff that has made its way into the wild. They usually crawl out of the woodwork near a game's release and make their way to articles and YouTube videos so now would likely be the time to find such contradictions. Where's the evidence one way or the other. I'm not claiming what is happening, but blind faith because someone said so is not better than believing the worst with no evidence. People lie and mislead, its normal everyone does it every day, its even more common when 10s to hundreds of millions of $s are on the line. Bioware rep said so just isn't persuasive, just like they always made SP games before isn't really persuasive either.
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Post by majesticjazz on Feb 11, 2019 19:33:15 GMT
Well I stand corrected. Just even more reason why I hope Anthem fails. Why would you want a game to fail? A lot of these devs put 6 years into the project...why would you want what they worked on to fail? As a consumer who has supported Bioware's efforts and advancements in SP and someone who does not get into MP games, I hope Anthem fails to signal to Bioware that they should have stuck with whay they're good at. Is it a bit selfish? Yes, but as a consumer I dont have to hope everything succeeds. In a way, I am looking forward to DA4 and more Mass Effect. I just hope Bioware improves their open world setting and improves upon their "telephone pole" NPCs and step into the moder day with vibrant open worlds with emergent gameplay. In addition, Bioware needs to also work on how it tells stories in terms of player choice. Unlike games like Witcher 3 and Horizon Zero Dawn where many choices are blurry and the outcome isnt always as obvious....Bioware sticks with the "good choices means good outcomes and bad choices means bad outcomes". Contrast to say TW3 (and Im sure the same with Cyberpunk) where often times you are given a choice between 2 bad choices with 2 bad outcomes. Bioware needs to evolve on these 2 fronts. People criticize Fort Tarsis for being liveless but Tarsis hub is no different from say Orlais in Dragon Age or The Citadel in Mass Effect. What happened was the industry moved forward and made advancements in this area while Bioware stayed the same. Fort Tarsis would have been seen as this vibrant and lively world back in 2009 but in 2019 people have seen better. Getting off topic but though....
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Post by majesticjazz on Feb 11, 2019 19:34:37 GMT
So let me see if i understand: You ask for a confirmation to you question, then you get said confirmation from the people responsible for Anthem (the big shots of Bioware) now you change the goal and or say you don't believe what they say. I get the feeling you want them to say exactly what you want to hear more than the truth... No, I believe what they said when they said Anthem started out as a MP game per the link you provided.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: MasterDassJennir
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Post by bshep on Feb 11, 2019 19:37:15 GMT
So let me see if i understand: You ask for a confirmation to you question, then you get said confirmation from the people responsible for Anthem (the big shots of Bioware) now you change the goal and or say you don't believe what they say. I get the feeling you want them to say exactly what you want to hear more than the truth... No, I believe what they said when they said Anthem started out as a MP game per the link you provided. Sorry i was refering to ahglock but some other posts got between his and mine. Going to edit my post to make it clear.
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Post by ahglock on Feb 11, 2019 19:38:47 GMT
Why would you want a game to fail? A lot of these devs put 6 years into the project...why would you want what they worked on to fail? As a consumer who has supported Bioware's efforts and advancements in SP and someone who does not get into MP games, I hope Anthem fails to signal to Bioware that they should have stuck with whay they're good at. Is it a bit selfish? Yes, but as a consumer I dont have to hope everything succeeds. Not unusual. Even before people had legitimate gripes with fallout 76 a very loud group of Bethesda fans expressed the same sentiment, no idea if they were a majority or a vocal minority but they were there. Bethesda gifted them with a craptacular launch. Personally I've enjoyed the game but I have no problem ignoring everyone and have access to all the content a SP focused player. And even though I like fallout 76, I preferred fallout 3,4,all the elder scrolls and I suspect will prefer starfield massively.
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Post by samhain444 on Feb 11, 2019 19:43:45 GMT
I guess my take on the graph is quite a bit different than most (all?) others.
When I look at the graph, I see that ~28-29% of the respondents cite toxic players. If you eliminate the vast majority of toxic players, so that the 28% is willing to play MP, that still leaves ~72% of the respondents with reasons to avoid MP and stick with SP.
So BioWare could increase the number of folks in its customer base … who are willing to play Anthem, but that leaves the majority (nearly 3/4s) still preferring SP.
An effort to make Anthem "safe" from toxic players will quickly reach diminishing returns.
A significant portion of BioWare's customer base is looking for a SP experience … because they want the SP experience. After discovering the joys of ME3MP (and later, MEAMP), I'm certainly open to a MP experience and am giving Anthem a try. But the story still matters to me … straight up shooters bore me.
I'd hoped that Emily's question was an effort to show a large element of the customer base that wants the SP experience … evidence to take back to EA and bolster the argument for a SP DA and ME ... albeit with MP tacked on. Maybe I'm being too pessimistic, but her brief comment on the results makes me think that the main takeaway is the "toxic player" … sigh. How much of the respondents are representative of the entire fanbase though? She said she had 1,800 total responses and categorized only 800 due to time constraints but, let say that the 800 is fairly reflective of the other 1,000 not categorized, we are looking at potential fans of BioWare games (as some respondents may be just answering her question and not as BioWare fan) who responded due to their aversion to multiplayer games...how many in the BioWare fanbase simply would not respond to this question because they have no problem playing other online games and is it truly a "significant portion" that this survey represents? I am a BioWare fan and I don't necessarily have an aversion to online games (though it is not my first choice). I also know others that feel the same way. Are we the "minority"? I honestly don't know.
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Post by ahglock on Feb 11, 2019 19:50:04 GMT
So ahglock let me see if i understand: You ask for a confirmation to you question, then you get said confirmation from the people responsible for Anthem (the big shots of Bioware) now you change the goal and or say you don't believe what they say. I get the feeling you want them to say exactly what you want to hear more than the truth... I never made any claims one way or the other about it being a MP game. I cautioned against believing what people say and that games change over development time. The MP game they started with and the one we ended up with could be different. Even assuming what they said was 100% truthful that could still be true.
I get the feeling you want believe whatever bioware wants you to believe no matter what more than the truth.
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Post by Heimdall on Feb 11, 2019 19:50:31 GMT
Why would you want a game to fail? A lot of these devs put 6 years into the project...why would you want what they worked on to fail? As a consumer who has supported Bioware's efforts and advancements in SP and someone who does not get into MP games, I hope Anthem fails to signal to Bioware that they should have stuck with whay they're good at. Is it a bit selfish? Yes, but as a consumer I dont have to hope everything succeeds. In a way, I am looking forward to DA4 and more Mass Effect. I just hope Bioware improves their open world setting and improves upon their "telephone pole" NPCs and step into the moder day with vibrant open worlds with emergent gameplay. In addition, Bioware needs to also work on how it tells stories in terms of player choice. Unlike games like Witcher 3 and Horizon Zero Dawn where many choices are blurry and the outcome isnt always as obvious....Bioware sticks with the "good choices means good outcomes and bad choices means bad outcomes". Contrast to say TW3 (and Im sure the same with Cyberpunk) where often times you are given a choice between 2 bad choices with 2 bad outcomes. Bioware needs to evolve on these 2 fronts. People criticize Fort Tarsis for being liveless but Tarsis hub is no different from say Orlais in Dragon Age or The Citadel in Mass Effect. What happened was the industry moved forward and made advancements in this area while Bioware stayed the same. Fort Tarsis would have been seen as this vibrant and lively world back in 2009 but in 2019 people have seen better. Getting off topic but though.... Well, from what I understand Tarsis is supposed to start out as we saw it in the demo and get livelier and more opened up as the initial campaign advances. The open world is also supposedly a bit less empty in the full game. We’ll see. I think it’ll probably be better than Inquisition, low bar though that may be. Anyway, unfortunately I think the more likely result of Anthem’s failure would be EA deciding BioWare isn’t as profitable a studio as it used to be and downsizing it. They’ll point to the myriad examples of highly successful MP games and say it’s BioWare that was the problem not the genre. I just don’t think there’s a likely scenario where Anthem’s failure results in a renaissance of BioWare single player games. I think Dragon Age is coming either way, that being said.
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Post by ahglock on Feb 11, 2019 19:53:03 GMT
I guess my take on the graph is quite a bit different than most (all?) others.
When I look at the graph, I see that ~28-29% of the respondents cite toxic players. If you eliminate the vast majority of toxic players, so that the 28% is willing to play MP, that still leaves ~72% of the respondents with reasons to avoid MP and stick with SP.
So BioWare could increase the number of folks in its customer base … who are willing to play Anthem, but that leaves the majority (nearly 3/4s) still preferring SP.
An effort to make Anthem "safe" from toxic players will quickly reach diminishing returns.
A significant portion of BioWare's customer base is looking for a SP experience … because they want the SP experience. After discovering the joys of ME3MP (and later, MEAMP), I'm certainly open to a MP experience and am giving Anthem a try. But the story still matters to me … straight up shooters bore me.
I'd hoped that Emily's question was an effort to show a large element of the customer base that wants the SP experience … evidence to take back to EA and bolster the argument for a SP DA and ME ... albeit with MP tacked on. Maybe I'm being too pessimistic, but her brief comment on the results makes me think that the main takeaway is the "toxic player" … sigh. How much of the respondents are representative of the entire fanbase though? She said she had 1,800 total responses and categorized only 800 due to time constraints but, let say that the 800 is fairly reflective of the other 1,000 not categorized, we are looking at potential fans of BioWare games (as some respondents may be just answering her question and not as BioWare fan) who responded due to their aversion to multiplayer games...how many in the BioWare fanbase simply would not respond to this question because they have no problem playing other online games and is it truly a "significant portion" that this survey represents? I am a BioWare fan and I don't necessarily have an aversion to online games (though it is not my first choice). I also know others that feel the same way. Are we the "minority"? I honestly don't know.
Agreed, she specifically was asking for SP fans which creates a pretty skewed polling group. And on twitter anyone can answer bioware fan or not.
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Post by Heimdall on Feb 11, 2019 19:57:04 GMT
I guess my take on the graph is quite a bit different than most (all?) others.
When I look at the graph, I see that ~28-29% of the respondents cite toxic players. If you eliminate the vast majority of toxic players, so that the 28% is willing to play MP, that still leaves ~72% of the respondents with reasons to avoid MP and stick with SP.
So BioWare could increase the number of folks in its customer base … who are willing to play Anthem, but that leaves the majority (nearly 3/4s) still preferring SP.
An effort to make Anthem "safe" from toxic players will quickly reach diminishing returns.
A significant portion of BioWare's customer base is looking for a SP experience … because they want the SP experience. After discovering the joys of ME3MP (and later, MEAMP), I'm certainly open to a MP experience and am giving Anthem a try. But the story still matters to me … straight up shooters bore me.
I'd hoped that Emily's question was an effort to show a large element of the customer base that wants the SP experience … evidence to take back to EA and bolster the argument for a SP DA and ME ... albeit with MP tacked on. Maybe I'm being too pessimistic, but her brief comment on the results makes me think that the main takeaway is the "toxic player" … sigh. I’m not sure you’re reading this correctly. 100% of respondents were people specifically asked about why they already didn’t like MP. This is not a measure of BioWare’s general consumer base, only a specific subset of people who don’t like MP. This isn’t data you can use to say anything about how much of BioWare’s Fan base prefers single player.
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Post by samhain444 on Feb 11, 2019 20:00:27 GMT
Why would you want a game to fail? A lot of these devs put 6 years into the project...why would you want what they worked on to fail? As a consumer who has supported Bioware's efforts and advancements in SP and someone who does not get into MP games, I hope Anthem fails to signal to Bioware that they should have stuck with whay they're good at. Is it a bit selfish? Yes, but as a consumer I dont have to hope everything succeeds. In a way, I am looking forward to DA4 and more Mass Effect. I just hope Bioware improves their open world setting and improves upon their "telephone pole" NPCs and step into the moder day with vibrant open worlds with emergent gameplay. In addition, Bioware needs to also work on how it tells stories in terms of player choice. Unlike games like Witcher 3 and Horizon Zero Dawn where many choices are blurry and the outcome isnt always as obvious....Bioware sticks with the "good choices means good outcomes and bad choices means bad outcomes". Contrast to say TW3 (and Im sure the same with Cyberpunk) where often times you are given a choice between 2 bad choices with 2 bad outcomes. Bioware needs to evolve on these 2 fronts. People criticize Fort Tarsis for being liveless but Tarsis hub is no different from say Orlais in Dragon Age or The Citadel in Mass Effect. What happened was the industry moved forward and made advancements in this area while Bioware stayed the same. Fort Tarsis would have been seen as this vibrant and lively world back in 2009 but in 2019 people have seen better. Getting off topic but though.... Aloy and Geralt are both pretty static characters in terms of RP so I think where BioWare distinguishes itself from these games is it's protagonist. I played "TW3" twice and "HZD" all the way through "The Frozen Wastes" and I enjoyed my time but still prefer the worlds BioWare creates. That said, they can stand some improvement. I have no objection to more "gray" consequences so, yeah, hopefully they can have more complex narrative threads. I think the one thing that changed between the original trilogy and "DA:I"/"ME:A" that I'm not a fan of is the way the NPC interactions appear to take place from a distance. Obviously, that saves some time and resources in terms of animations but it hurts the immersion. I'm currently playing through ME3 and the conversations are richer and you feel connected in way that often feels lacking in the last two releases. Hopefully, they get back to that with future DA and ME titles. As for Fort Tarsis, *I'm reserving judgement until I actually play it.
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Post by ahglock on Feb 11, 2019 20:15:27 GMT
Aloy and Geralt are both pretty static characters in terms of RP so I think where BioWare distinguishes itself from these games is it's protagonist. I played "TW3" twice and "HZD" all the way through "The Frozen Wastes" and I enjoyed my time but still prefer the worlds BioWare creates. That said, they can stand some improvement. I have no objection to more "gray" consequences so, yeah, hopefully they can have more complex narrative threads. I think the one thing that changed between the original trilogy and "DA:I"/"ME:A" that I'm not a fan of is the way the NPC interactions appear to take place from a distance. Obviously, that saves some time and resources in terms of animations but it hurts the immersion. I'm currently playing through ME3 and the conversations are richer and you feel connected in way that often feels lacking in the last two releases. Hopefully, they get back to that with future DA and ME titles. As for Fort Tarsis, *I'm reserving judgement until I actually play it. Yes, with bioware I generally feel like i am making the character mine. With the Witcher style of RPG if I don't like the protagonist I'm kind of stuck as my RP range is too narrow. It was one of my primary disappointments with MEA while Ryder was not nearly as defined as Geralt or Alloy it was a more narrow range than previous bioware titles. I personally prefer the return of a non voiced PC as I feel they can and usually do add more dialogue options to more fully shape your character.
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Post by river82 on Feb 11, 2019 20:49:23 GMT
Emily (aka Domino) Taylor pentapodIn case you're curious, I took 800 of the 1,800+ replies (because limited time in the day!) and categorized the responses. Overwhelmingly, most folks who prefer to play solo, do so because of other players. A sad statement about online toxicity that games need to better address. Lol, here we go. Bioware wants to be a gaming hero rather than just make good games. Righto then, when you fail ... can you just go back to making good games?
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Feb 11, 2019 21:23:31 GMT
Story DLC will be free and you can play all story content solo, so not sure where you want to go here. I tried playing the freeplay solo and it was bloody hard to do. It's not solo-friendly at all. They said it was possible, not easy. In fact, they said it would be bloody hard. I like it! I'm playing solo specifically for the challenge. If it were easy, I wouldn't bother.
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helios969
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Origin: helios969
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Post by helios969 on Feb 11, 2019 21:27:39 GMT
I probably would have lumped antisocial/introvert with social anxiety (probably a strong correlation there). That would have been the 2nd biggest impediment for SP players reasoning for not participating in MP games.
In the toxic player category it should probably be said that people are expressing their fears as much or more than actual experience with that sort of thing. With 1000 hours between ME3/MEAMP's I ran into exactly one person in one match that would qualify as such...and it took all of 5 seconds to mute the jackass and finish out the match.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Feb 11, 2019 21:30:26 GMT
I don't need a graph to tell me that real people are the worst kind of people there is. It’s weird to me as I’ve bumped into so few people I’d call toxic online. Thousands of hours of online games and maybe 10 hours of toxic behavior. I haven’t done much online gaming recently so maybe it’s got worse the last few years. But people complained about it back then as well. Maybe I’m just lucky but I kind of suspect it is rare people just hold onto these rare moments exaggerating the impact in their minds. Depends on your threshold for toxicity. Some people find tea-bagging rage quit offensive. If I agreed with that, I'd say MP FPS games were a sea of toxic players. Also, any use of the words "gay", "fag", or "homo" in chat. It's hard for me to recall a line of chat that did not contain one of those words. Different game genres may have different sub-cultures, though. I played mostly MP FPS, and admittedly the average age of most randoms was < 30, so that might have something to do with it.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Feb 11, 2019 21:35:22 GMT
I probably would have lumped antisocial/introvert with social anxiety (probably a strong correlation there). That would have been the 2nd biggest impediment for SP players reasoning for not participating in MP games. I said in the Twitter thread that I don't think Introvert and Antisocial should be lumped together, that's both apples and oranges and somewhat judgmental. Introvert and Social Anxiety would be okay, since many people with social anxiety disorders are also introverts -- though not the reverse.
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helios969
N4
Kamisama
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Origin: helios969
Prime Posts: No Clue
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Post by helios969 on Feb 11, 2019 21:48:15 GMT
I probably would have lumped antisocial/introvert with social anxiety (probably a strong correlation there). That would have been the 2nd biggest impediment for SP players reasoning for not participating in MP games. I said in the Twitter thread that I don't think Introvert and Antisocial should be lumped together, that's both apples and oranges and somewhat judgmental. Introvert and Social Anxiety would be okay, since many people with social anxiety disorders are also introverts -- though not the reverse. Fair enough, though it's not like this thing is remotely scientific. It could have been written as Introverted, Antisocial, or Social Anxiety...but I suppose some might take offense.
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ahglock
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
Origin: ShinobiKillfist
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Post by ahglock on Feb 11, 2019 21:48:29 GMT
It’s weird to me as I’ve bumped into so few people I’d call toxic online. Thousands of hours of online games and maybe 10 hours of toxic behavior. I haven’t done much online gaming recently so maybe it’s got worse the last few years. But people complained about it back then as well. Maybe I’m just lucky but I kind of suspect it is rare people just hold onto these rare moments exaggerating the impact in their minds. Depends on your threshold for toxicity. Some people find tea-bagging rage quit offensive. If I agreed with that, I'd say MP FPS games were a sea of toxic players. Also, any use of the words "gay", "fag", or "homo" in chat. It's hard for me to recall a line of chat that did not contain one of those words. Different game genres may have different sub-cultures, though. I played mostly MP FPS, and admittedly the average age of most randoms was < 30, so that might have something to do with it. Good point I work in social services and have had people threaten to kill me multiple times so I may have a higher threshold.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Feb 11, 2019 21:52:34 GMT
I said in the Twitter thread that I don't think Introvert and Antisocial should be lumped together, that's both apples and oranges and somewhat judgmental. Introvert and Social Anxiety would be okay, since many people with social anxiety disorders are also introverts -- though not the reverse. Fair enough, though it's not like this thing is remotely scientific. It could have been written as Introverted, Antisocial, or Social Anxiety...but I suppose some might take offense. As they should, since Antisocial is negative by definition, while Introverted and Social Anxiety are not.
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