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Post by cyberpunker on Apr 22, 2019 3:23:14 GMT
But what about the fact that Merrill has Blood Magic to augment her Dalish arts over Dorian? Part of the problem with using blood magic as a reason to consider someone a more powerful mage is that, as far as I understand it, the most powerful blood spells require a lot of blood - as in many human sacrifices. Merrill only uses her own blood, I don't remember any reference to her using anyone else blood, even a little. So no matter how much expertise she may or may not gain over the years in the use of Blood Magic, she'll always be locked out of those top tier spells. Dorian has training in many schools of magic - and, being trained in Tevinter, his magical education would likely have been even stronger that that of a Southern mage (where training that is considered "bad" by the Chantry and/or could give a mage too much power is restricted by the Circles). Also, I suspect most Tevinter noble mages receive some "unofficial training" in blood magic somewhere along the way - even if Dorian refuses to use blood magic, that knowledge may help him protect himself against it. Personally, I would place Dorian on the same level as Vivienne and both of them above Merrill. Good catch that Dorian probably knows schools alongside Time Magic and Necromancy. Unlike Vivienne though, he focuses on Time Magic and Necromancy to the exclusion of other schools. Vivienne by the time of DA:I seems to be an expert in the standard Circle arts. Maybe Dorian has knowledge of Blood Magic, and he probably does because he's from Tevinter. But until he uses it or practices with it, he doesn't benefit right? Maybe he can predict some of the attacks from a Blood Mage like Merrill, but why do you think he can actually use that to his advantage beyond just being aware of what Merrill is doing? Maybe you can say that Merrill's Dalish arts is just not as good as Dorian's training. And so even with Merrill's blood magic, she would not be up to tier with Dorian. I'm not sure if Merrill needs to use a lot of other people's blood to become good at Blood Magic. Her whole thing in DA:2 was being strong with using only her blood and coming up with spells that destroy her opponents and getting what she wants. So that's one reason why I still put her a little above Dorian, maybe I'm giving too much credit to her Dalish magical traditions then?
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 22, 2019 7:34:56 GMT
But Blood Magic also enables mages to simply augment their own spells with blood acting as a fuel alongside Lyrium. So yes, making a spell more powerful. I think there is a misunderstanding here about how blood magic works when used as a power source. Taking lyrium or using blood magic does not make the actual spell more powerful, it simply allows you to boost your mana so you are actually able to cast the spell at all. Each mage has their own natural level of mana and this varies between mages. Mages who have naturally high levels of mana would have less need to boost their mana pool in order to cast high level spells. Blood magic is a greater temptation to weaker mages because it allows them access to spells that they would otherwise be unable to perform. It is also true that it may allow them to perform spells for longer of a sustained nature that fail when your mana runs out. This is why Dorian, for example, would not be tempted to use blood magic as a power boost because he is a naturally gifted mage. He also admits that the real danger of blood magic, no matter what your level of natural mana, is the fact that once you have discovered this means of boosting it, you are going to be tempted to take a little bit more in order to access even higher level spells or keep them going for longer and this is where mages move from using their own blood to that of other people, or risk killing themselves. The other temptation of blood magic is that it gives you access to spells that are unique to blood magic. Most of these involve manipulating the mind in some way but there are other ones that work through the blood of the victim. Very often though there are similarities between the blood magic spells and those from other specialisms. The reason I drew attention to the school of Nercomancy is that some of its spells involve manipulating the mind (Horror) or the blood of the victim (Walking Bomb) although in a different way to blood magic. Blood magic would have seemed to have refined the way you can control the body or mind of victim to a greater degree. Merrill is not a true blood mage because her specialism is not blood magic but her own variant of a combination of Keeper specialism with some of the attributes of a blood mage. So whilst she can use her blood as a power source, she does not have access to the majority of the most dangerous blood magic spells. This could be because no one has taught her how to use them but it could also be that she does have moral objections to their use. I doubt she is even aware of the possibilities because that is not why she wanted to do blood magic. She just wanted to have a boost to her mana pool. Whether she might subsequently fall to temptation and become a full blown blood mage is a matter for debate but during the time she is a companion she does not have access to these high level blood magic spells.
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Post by cyberpunker on Apr 22, 2019 8:05:00 GMT
But Blood Magic also enables mages to simply augment their own spells with blood acting as a fuel alongside Lyrium. So yes, making a spell more powerful. I think there is a misunderstanding here about how blood magic works when used as a power source. Taking lyrium or using blood magic does not make the actual spell more powerful, it simply allows you to boost your mana so you are actually able to cast the spell at all. Each mage has their own natural level of mana and this varies between mages. Mages who have naturally high levels of mana would have less need to boost their mana pool in order to cast high level spells. Blood magic is a greater temptation to weaker mages because it allows them access to spells that they would otherwise be unable to perform. It is also true that it may allow them to perform spells for longer of a sustained nature that fail when your mana runs out. This is why Dorian, for example, would not be tempted to use blood magic as a power boost because he is a naturally gifted mage. He also admits that the real danger of blood magic, no matter what your level of natural mana, is the fact that once you have discovered this means of boosting it, you are going to be tempted to take a little bit more in order to access even higher level spells or keep them going for longer and this is where mages move from using their own blood to that of other people, or risk killing themselves. The other temptation of blood magic is that it gives you access to spells that are unique to blood magic. Most of these involve manipulating the mind in some way but there are other ones that work through the blood of the victim. Very often though there are similarities between the blood magic spells and those from other specialisms. The reason I drew attention to the school of Nercomancy is that some of its spells involve manipulating the mind (Horror) or the blood of the victim (Walking Bomb) although in a different way to blood magic. Blood magic would have seemed to have refined the way you can control the body or mind of victim to a greater degree. Merrill is not a true blood mage because her specialism is not blood magic but her own variant of a combination of Keeper specialism with some of the attributes of a blood mage. So whilst she can use her blood as a power source, she does not have access to the majority of the most dangerous blood magic spells. This could be because no one has taught her how to use them but it could also be that she does have moral objections to their use. I doubt she is even aware of the possibilities because that is not why she wanted to do blood magic. She just wanted to have a boost to her mana pool. Whether she might subsequently fall to temptation and become a full blown blood mage is a matter for debate but during the time she is a companion she does not have access to these high level blood magic spells. That's actually not true. Dragon Age Wikia cites World of Thedas and Forbidden Arts books to say that Blood Magic does actually augment spells, the more painful the extraction the more augmentation. But the Lore indicates that even a normal Blood Mage using their own blood casts more powerful versions of the same spell. Tevinter Magisters smashed their enemies, established their empire, and continue to smash each other using Blood Magic. So much so that not using Blood Magic is a significant disadvantage in the Magisterium. So it's not simply a mana source or a way to access blood magic spells. It actually is a sort of steroids on your spells. Good point that Merrill is not a "standard" blood mage because her repertoire consists of Dalish Magic augmented by her own Blood Magic spells, in addition to Blood Magic being an augmentation in general. But that is the reason why she's so powerful in comparison to someone like Bethany who is just a normal Circle Mage, or Velanna, who does not have Blood Magic. Basically, she's the only one we know who uses Blood Magic to augment her abilities, make her spells stronger, and to increase her range of attacks. During her time as a companion, Merrill does indeed have high quality blood magic spells equal to a Blood Mage Hawk or Anders. So I don't think Merrill is behind any other normal blood mages. And Merrill used Blood Magic initially to boost her man capabilities in order to fix the Eluvian; but it's not clear whether that was b/c Merrill could not cast the spells that she needed to or whether Merrill needed to cast more powerful versions of the same spell. But nevertheless that did not stop her from eventually using Blood Magic to make herself more powerful by the end of the game, ie learning powerful blood magic spells and using Blood Magic to augment standard spells like "Stone Throw". That's why Dorian would probably become more powerful than Merrill once he becomes an expert in Blood Magic, because he has so many resources in Tevinter to better teach him to wield it. Merrill has to find out by herself, or consult demons, or find that rare tome in the South. And so Dorian has a higher chance of making better use of Blood Magic. But without Blood Magic, I don't know if Dorian is at the same level as Merrill because Merrill will be hitting him with not only unique Dalish/Blood spells, but augmented versions as well.
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 22, 2019 12:07:44 GMT
That's actually not true. Dragon Age Wikia cites World of Thedas and Forbidden Arts books to say that Blood Magic does actually augment spells, the more painful the extraction the more augmentation. If the Wiki says this then I think the writer has misunderstood exactly what blood magic does when it "strengthens spells". I have both World of Thedas and the Core Rule Book to hand and these are what I am referencing. Correct me if you can find an instance of where I am wrong, but if you cast, say, a Fireball spell it does not do more damage simply because you are using blood magic instead of normal mana or lyrium. What it does do is allow a mage who would not normally have sufficient mana to be able to cast a Fireball to be able to do so. Then there are spells that are classed as "sustained" in the way they operate. Normally once the mana runs out the spell fails. In order to have a greater pool of mana the mage can use lyrium or blood to boost their mana pool. Blood is more flexible because so long as the blood continues to flow the spell is maintained. Some mages have been known to kill themselves through not being careful enough with using blood magic in this way. However, in Tevinter they have long known the way to overcome this restriction is either to use the blood of a willing accomplice or more usually the blood of unwilling slaves. Of course there may be certain unique powerful spells that require the use of multiple blood sacrifices as well simply to get them to operate at all because of the amount of mana needed. In the case of the assault of the Eternal City in the Fade, the spell required both vast amounts of lyrium and an enormous blood sacrifice to achieve. Now I know Patrick Weeks, I believe, has suggested when questioned that it is the level of pain in the sacrifice that increases the power of the spell. However, I am not sure if this is just him speculating or it is going to become accepted lore on the matter. The fact is it has never been properly explained what the mechanics of blood magic really are and how the power is being derived. This idea of the pain increasing the power would suggest that the power source isn't the blood at all but the spiritual and emotional response to being cut. Also we have the added information that Solas maintains he does not use blood magic because it interferes with his connection with the Fade, even though we have previously been told that blood magic use in an area weakens the Veil. As we are heading to Tevinter, may be the writers will get around to actually explaining what is going on.
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Post by cyberpunker on Apr 23, 2019 2:48:26 GMT
That's actually not true. Dragon Age Wikia cites World of Thedas and Forbidden Arts books to say that Blood Magic does actually augment spells, the more painful the extraction the more augmentation. If the Wiki says this then I think the writer has misunderstood exactly what blood magic does when it "strengthens spells". I have both World of Thedas and the Core Rule Book to hand and these are what I am referencing. Correct me if you can find an instance of where I am wrong, but if you cast, say, a Fireball spell it does not do more damage simply because you are using blood magic instead of normal mana or lyrium. What it does do is allow a mage who would not normally have sufficient mana to be able to cast a Fireball to be able to do so. Then there are spells that are classed as "sustained" in the way they operate. Normally once the mana runs out the spell fails. In order to have a greater pool of mana the mage can use lyrium or blood to boost their mana pool. Blood is more flexible because so long as the blood continues to flow the spell is maintained. Some mages have been known to kill themselves through not being careful enough with using blood magic in this way. However, in Tevinter they have long known the way to overcome this restriction is either to use the blood of a willing accomplice or more usually the blood of unwilling slaves. Of course there may be certain unique powerful spells that require the use of multiple blood sacrifices as well simply to get them to operate at all because of the amount of mana needed. In the case of the assault of the Eternal City in the Fade, the spell required both vast amounts of lyrium and an enormous blood sacrifice to achieve. Now I know Patrick Weeks, I believe, has suggested when questioned that it is the level of pain in the sacrifice that increases the power of the spell. However, I am not sure if this is just him speculating or it is going to become accepted lore on the matter. The fact is it has never been properly explained what the mechanics of blood magic really are and how the power is being derived. This idea of the pain increasing the power would suggest that the power source isn't the blood at all but the spiritual and emotional response to being cut. Also we have the added information that Solas maintains he does not use blood magic because it interferes with his connection with the Fade, even though we have previously been told that blood magic use in an area weakens the Veil. As we are heading to Tevinter, may be the writers will get around to actually explaining what is going on. So it's down to a different interpretation of the lore books then? My first example to answer your question is Merrill's "Stone Throw" ability. I believe that is a standard magic move that she learns from her Blood Mage skill tree. Unless Merrill just sucks so much that she cannot cast Stone Throw without Blood Magic, it's evidence that the writers intend Blood Magic to make normal spells more powerful. Also, I believe Blood Mages use both Lyrium and Blood Magic in combat, whatever it takes to make their spells more powerful. I guess what we have in terms of "canon lore" is based on these remarks and interviews. But yeah, if the writers say that they intended to convey Blood Magic making more powerful spells if the victim suffers more, then maybe the power augmentation is derived from the emotional response when extracting blood? Sorry for the run on sentence.
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Post by Sokemis on Apr 23, 2019 3:19:19 GMT
My first example to answer your question is Merrill's "Stone Throw" ability. I believe that is a standard magic move that she learns from her Blood Mage skill tree. Unless I'm missing something, I don't think "Stone Throw" is related to blood magic. Merrill's special tree is more her own special blend of Dalish earth magic and blood magic, and I think Stone Throw is more related to the nature part of the tree.
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Post by Noxluxe on Apr 23, 2019 3:28:16 GMT
I'm not sure the nature of blood magic itself is the deciding factor between Merril and Dorian. Merril isn't either unscrupulous or interested enough in biological magic to use it to its fullest offensive potential. I don't remember anyone remarking on her being a particularly powerful mage in her own right, so it makes sense to me that she mostly just uses it as a crutch to power rituals for her obsessive purposes.
Dorian, meanwhile, is bred for maximum magical power and had both deep and versatile training in all kinds of magical theory not accessible anywhere else in the world. And he also just appears to be more disciplined and composed and better at thinking on his feet, which is just as important in any real combat scenario.
Between the two of them, my money would be on Dorian, no question.
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Post by Iddy on Apr 23, 2019 11:09:22 GMT
Among the warriors, Aveline is pretty much the only companion who's ever been praised for her combat skill, so I'll have to pick her. Varric says she is stronger than Blackwall and Isabela puts her up there with Hawke as people who could easily bulldoze through the Qunari.
Among the rogues, it's Leliana for sure. She's got more experience in her little finger than most rogue companions.
Among the mages, I'm picking Solas. Sure, he was nerfed during his time as a companion, but he is technically superior.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2019 13:45:11 GMT
even if Dorian refuses to use blood magic, that knowledge may help him protect himself against it. This. If blood magic is used for political power then the most used aspect of it is probably mind control. There had to be a magical branch developed specifically to shield yourself. I'm sure Dorian received a rounded off education where resisting blood magic and mind control was very much on top of that list since that society likely uses it in buckets and due to his social position being closest to it. Whatever Merrill can throw at him isn't likely to make a dent considering that she's locked out of more developed aspect to it. That would be like a kindergarten kid throwing toys at him while he was taught to deal with people who have much higher proficiency. He was being given education from birth to match his position in society and this included being able to stand toe to toe with the worst of magisterial. I'm sure nobody in his family ever imagined him running off. Everyone thought the scripted scenario, be a good boy and inherit dad's big chair that means all his training was leading him to it. I'd say it safe to judge he actually is the same level as magistrates since he escaped as an adult.
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 23, 2019 17:19:38 GMT
Everyone thought the scripted scenario, be a good boy and inherit dad's big chair that means all his training was leading him to it. I'd say it safe to judge he actually is the same level as magistrates since he escaped as an adult. Magisters vary in ability as well. Because it is a inherited position, it doesn't actually depend on how much magical ability you possess but who your parents are. For example, Felix was a mage but a very weak one so his parents preferred to send him south for his education as he had shown proficiency in Mathematics but this was something not valued in Tevinter. However, had Felix not become tainted and Alexius had stayed in the north, then technically Felix would have inherited his seat in the Magisterium. How long he would have survived is another matter entirely. By contrast, Dorian is a very gifted mage so his ability would probably exceed that of the average Magister. It is also true that he was probably trained to protect himself against the lower level blood magic spells. However, I would imagine higher level spells would present more of a problem but this is where having access to crafted magical items would probably come in handy.
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 23, 2019 17:32:48 GMT
I believe that is a standard magic move that she learns from her Blood Mage skill tree. As others have mentioned, she does not have a Blood Magic skill tree but her own unique tree that combined limited blood magic skills with those she acquired whilst still a First. There are two branches to her abilities, just as there are two branches to Anders' tree, one based more on his spirit healer abilities and the others that he gets as the vessel of Justice/Vengeance. But yeah, if the writers say that they intended to convey Blood Magic making more powerful spells if the victim suffers more, then maybe the power augmentation is derived from the emotional response when extracting blood? The reason I do not hold much store about this comment by Patrick Weekes is that it creates a lot of contradictions with other statements made during the games. For example, the reason Corypheus wanted elves for the assault on the Eternal City is that their blood was more efficacious than that of humans. Surely if it was based off pain then everyone feels it the same? What happens if a person takes a pain killer before undertaking a blood ritual on themselves? Would the blood magic not work? The reason the Chantry condemned blood magic was not actually because of the sacrificial element, presumably because even they acknowledge the mage could use their own blood, but the fact that spells specific to blood magic can be used to control minds. If causing pain was an essential element of the blood magic ritual why didn't they condemn on those grounds alone?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2019 17:35:29 GMT
Magisters vary in ability as well. Because it is a inherited position, it doesn't actually depend on how much magical ability you possess but who your parents are. Yup and they won't stay in power if they don't have the ability. I think if Dorian wasn't powerful he would have been sent off somewhere the same way Felix was, so, it was expected of him to rival the elite group. In fact, he's still expected to come back and take his seat even after his frowned upon adventure south.
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Post by Noxluxe on Apr 24, 2019 8:35:16 GMT
Among the warriors, Aveline is pretty much the only companion who's ever been praised for her combat skill, so I'll have to pick her. Varric says she is stronger than Blackwall and Isabela puts her up there with Hawke as people who could easily bulldoze through the Qunari. Among the rogues, it's Leliana for sure. She's got more experience in her little finger than most rogue companions. Among the mages, I'm picking Solas. Sure, he was nerfed during his time as a companion, but he is technically superior. I'd personally wager that Loghain could take Aveline in a 1-on-1 duel. Maybe Cassandra and Iron Bull as well. Training and subduing brigands isn't the same as facing down other accomplished warriors, which those three have a lot more experience of than her. I also wouldn't take it for granted that Zevran could kill Leliana if they met in a dark ally, but it wouldn't surprise me either. And Solas is definitely the most powerful mage. A Vengeance-possessed Anders and a Morrigan who downed the Well might be able to overwhelm him, but not under their own power and probably not at all after he absorbs Mythal.
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Post by cyberpunker on Apr 24, 2019 10:49:04 GMT
Among the warriors, Aveline is pretty much the only companion who's ever been praised for her combat skill, so I'll have to pick her. Varric says she is stronger than Blackwall and Isabela puts her up there with Hawke as people who could easily bulldoze through the Qunari. Among the rogues, it's Leliana for sure. She's got more experience in her little finger than most rogue companions. Among the mages, I'm picking Solas. Sure, he was nerfed during his time as a companion, but he is technically superior. Nice. Where does Varric say that Aveline is better than Blackwall and Isabella? Was it in the comics? I don't remember that banter in game. Do you think Leliana survives Zevran if stealth is involved? Or Cole if Cole has access to his spirit abilities?
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Post by cyberpunker on Apr 24, 2019 10:51:16 GMT
Among the warriors, Aveline is pretty much the only companion who's ever been praised for her combat skill, so I'll have to pick her. Varric says she is stronger than Blackwall and Isabela puts her up there with Hawke as people who could easily bulldoze through the Qunari. Among the rogues, it's Leliana for sure. She's got more experience in her little finger than most rogue companions. Among the mages, I'm picking Solas. Sure, he was nerfed during his time as a companion, but he is technically superior. I'd personally wager that Loghain could take Aveline in a 1-on-1 duel. Maybe Cassandra and Iron Bull as well. Training and subduing brigands isn't the same as facing down other accomplished warriors, which those three have a lot more experience of than her. I also wouldn't take it for granted that Zevran could kill Leliana if they met in a dark ally, but it wouldn't surprise me either. And Solas is definitely the most powerful mage. A Vengeance-possessed Anders and a Morrigan who downed the Well might be able to overwhelm him, but not under their own power and probably not at all after he absorbs Mythal. I personally think Aveline can stand her ground against most warriors It's just that I don't see her winning in the end. Kind of like how boxers can survive a fight, but can't win it. Your take on Zevran is my own too. I'm just undecided how Cole vs Zevran would turn out. Both are super stealthy and deadly assassins. I imagine a Mythal Infused Solas probably can't be soloed by either Vengeance Anders or Morrigan. Maybe if both teamed up?
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Post by cyberpunker on Apr 24, 2019 10:55:09 GMT
My first example to answer your question is Merrill's "Stone Throw" ability. I believe that is a standard magic move that she learns from her Blood Mage skill tree. Unless I'm missing something, I don't think "Stone Throw" is related to blood magic. Merrill's special tree is more her own special blend of Dalish earth magic and blood magic, and I think Stone Throw is more related to the nature part of the tree. Yeah you can take that position; I can't say for sure my own take is full proof. Her spell tree is called "Dalish Pariah" and so it could be that blood magic still does not enhance her abilities. But then nobody can say for sure who is right and wrong. We can only try our best to infer based on what we have.
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Post by cyberpunker on Apr 24, 2019 11:02:22 GMT
I'm not sure the nature of blood magic itself is the deciding factor between Merril and Dorian. Merril isn't either unscrupulous or interested enough in biological magic to use it to its fullest offensive potential. I don't remember anyone remarking on her being a particularly powerful mage in her own right, so it makes sense to me that she mostly just uses it as a crutch to power rituals for her obsessive purposes. Dorian, meanwhile, is bred for maximum magical power and had both deep and versatile training in all kinds of magical theory not accessible anywhere else in the world. And he also just appears to be more disciplined and composed and better at thinking on his feet, which is just as important in any real combat scenario. Between the two of them, my money would be on Dorian, no question. Well, consider that Merrill was the most powerful in her clan, more so than the Keeper by the end of DA:2. My own proof that Merrill rose up to be a powerful Blood Mage by DA:I is that her Eluvian is fixed. We talked about this earlier in the thread, but the Eluvian requires magical abilities that not even Morrigan fully grasps. Merrill turned to the Demon for Blood Magic in order to start fixing the Eluvian. The fact that she finally does so in DA:I shows that she does become an expert in Blood Magic. Finally, I don't think you have to be immoral to use Blood Magic to its fullest potential, in order to become an expert. Merrill could have obtained her expertise by training the theory of Blood Magic, while never actually putting what she learned into practice (at least not on such a large scale). I agree Dorian has a lot more potential as a powerful mage. My whole question regarding Dorian vs Merrill is that Dorian does not yet fully reach his potential (until he starts to use Blood Magic as a magister). Merrill looks like she is always scrapping the bottom of the barrel wrt her magical abilities from her Dalish and Blood Mage expertise. Dorian seems to be content with what he has thus far. In terms of raw potential, Dorian sure. But do you think Merrill's Dalish abilities, coupled with Blood Magic, would still not be enough against Dorian?
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Post by cyberpunker on Apr 24, 2019 11:03:57 GMT
Among the warriors, Aveline is pretty much the only companion who's ever been praised for her combat skill, so I'll have to pick her. Varric says she is stronger than Blackwall and Isabela puts her up there with Hawke as people who could easily bulldoze through the Qunari. Among the rogues, it's Leliana for sure. She's got more experience in her little finger than most rogue companions. Among the mages, I'm picking Solas. Sure, he was nerfed during his time as a companion, but he is technically superior. I'd personally wager that Loghain could take Aveline in a 1-on-1 duel. Maybe Cassandra and Iron Bull as well. Training and subduing brigands isn't the same as facing down other accomplished warriors, which those three have a lot more experience of than her. I also wouldn't take it for granted that Zevran could kill Leliana if they met in a dark ally, but it wouldn't surprise me either. And Solas is definitely the most powerful mage. A Vengeance-possessed Anders and a Morrigan who downed the Well might be able to overwhelm him, but not under their own power and probably not at all after he absorbs Mythal. Agreed that Loghan could take on them 1 v 1. I have him winning against Aveline and Iron Bull. This is assuming Prime Loghain + Grey Warden abilities. Not old age, late 50s-60s Loghain in DA:I. Do you think anyone can survive Zevran in a dark ally?
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Post by cyberpunker on Apr 24, 2019 11:05:42 GMT
even if Dorian refuses to use blood magic, that knowledge may help him protect himself against it. This. If blood magic is used for political power then the most used aspect of it is probably mind control. There had to be a magical branch developed specifically to shield yourself. I'm sure Dorian received a rounded off education where resisting blood magic and mind control was very much on top of that list since that society likely uses it in buckets and due to his social position being closest to it. Whatever Merrill can throw at him isn't likely to make a dent considering that she's locked out of more developed aspect to it. That would be like a kindergarten kid throwing toys at him while he was taught to deal with people who have much higher proficiency. He was being given education from birth to match his position in society and this included being able to stand toe to toe with the worst of magisterial. I'm sure nobody in his family ever imagined him running off. Everyone thought the scripted scenario, be a good boy and inherit dad's big chair that means all his training was leading him to it. I'd say it safe to judge he actually is the same level as magistrates since he escaped as an adult. That might be the case, that Dorian's Tevinter education has trained him on how to counter Blood Magic at a basic level. We don't know that though, the existence of that Tevinter education or Dorian's ability to counter Blood Magic. Regardless, don't you think Merrill is an expert at Blood Magic now in DA:I as she finally manages to repair her Eluvian? Something that Morrigan herself cannot do? Eluvian repairing evidently requires help from Blood Magic from a Pride Demon btw.
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Post by cyberpunker on Apr 24, 2019 11:10:33 GMT
I believe that is a standard magic move that she learns from her Blood Mage skill tree. As others have mentioned, she does not have a Blood Magic skill tree but her own unique tree that combined limited blood magic skills with those she acquired whilst still a First. There are two branches to her abilities, just as there are two branches to Anders' tree, one based more on his spirit healer abilities and the others that he gets as the vessel of Justice/Vengeance. But yeah, if the writers say that they intended to convey Blood Magic making more powerful spells if the victim suffers more, then maybe the power augmentation is derived from the emotional response when extracting blood? The reason I do not hold much store about this comment by Patrick Weekes is that it creates a lot of contradictions with other statements made during the games. For example, the reason Corypheus wanted elves for the assault on the Eternal City is that their blood was more efficacious than that of humans. Surely if it was based off pain then everyone feels it the same? What happens if a person takes a pain killer before undertaking a blood ritual on themselves? Would the blood magic not work? The reason the Chantry condemned blood magic was not actually because of the sacrificial element, presumably because even they acknowledge the mage could use their own blood, but the fact that spells specific to blood magic can be used to control minds. If causing pain was an essential element of the blood magic ritual why didn't they condemn on those grounds alone? Yes I realize that it is largely a matter of speculation at this point. Whether Blood Magic augments an ability or not. Although the World of Thedas and Forbidden Arts does say that it augments an ability. Are you able to double check the primary source? Maybe we can get at this more clearer? There could be a way to reconcile those contradictions, some ways which you already brought forth. And the Chantry's reasoning to condemn is also just begging the question of whether Blood Magic actually augments via pain. If yes, then the Chantry could just be more indifferent to pain and more sensitive to mind control. Maybe if we had access to the sources cited in the Wikia?
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Post by Iddy on Apr 24, 2019 11:27:41 GMT
Among the warriors, Aveline is pretty much the only companion who's ever been praised for her combat skill, so I'll have to pick her. Varric says she is stronger than Blackwall and Isabela puts her up there with Hawke as people who could easily bulldoze through the Qunari. Among the rogues, it's Leliana for sure. She's got more experience in her little finger than most rogue companions. Among the mages, I'm picking Solas. Sure, he was nerfed during his time as a companion, but he is technically superior. Nice. Where does Varric say that Aveline is better than Blackwall and Isabella? Was it in the comics? I don't remember that banter in game. Do you think Leliana survives Zevran if stealth is involved? Or Cole if Cole has access to his spirit abilities? Party banter and a cutscene. Well, it's not like Leliana never had to deal with other rogues before. And Cole's spirit abilities mostly apply to helping people.
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Post by Noxluxe on Apr 24, 2019 11:51:14 GMT
I'm not sure the nature of blood magic itself is the deciding factor between Merril and Dorian. Merril isn't either unscrupulous or interested enough in biological magic to use it to its fullest offensive potential. I don't remember anyone remarking on her being a particularly powerful mage in her own right, so it makes sense to me that she mostly just uses it as a crutch to power rituals for her obsessive purposes. Dorian, meanwhile, is bred for maximum magical power and had both deep and versatile training in all kinds of magical theory not accessible anywhere else in the world. And he also just appears to be more disciplined and composed and better at thinking on his feet, which is just as important in any real combat scenario. Between the two of them, my money would be on Dorian, no question. Well, consider that Merrill was the most powerful in her clan, more so than the Keeper by the end of DA:2. My own proof that Merrill rose up to be a powerful Blood Mage by DA:I is that her Eluvian is fixed. We talked about this earlier in the thread, but the Eluvian requires magical abilities that not even Morrigan fully grasps. Merrill turned to the Demon for Blood Magic in order to start fixing the Eluvian. The fact that she finally does so in DA:I shows that she does become an expert in Blood Magic. Finally, I don't think you have to be immoral to use Blood Magic to its fullest potential, in order to become an expert. Merrill could have obtained her expertise by training the theory of Blood Magic, while never actually putting what she learned into practice (at least not on such a large scale). I agree Dorian has a lot more potential as a powerful mage. My whole question regarding Dorian vs Merrill is that Dorian does not yet fully reach his potential (until he starts to use Blood Magic as a magister). Merrill looks like she is always scrapping the bottom of the barrel wrt her magical abilities from her Dalish and Blood Mage expertise. Dorian seems to be content with what he has thus far. In terms of raw potential, Dorian sure. But do you think Merrill's Dalish abilities, coupled with Blood Magic, would still not be enough against Dorian? I don't, as a matter of fact. Being the most powerful in her clan(?) doesn't say much, there were only two mages that we know of, and it's not obvious to me that the life of a Dalish Keeper allows for exhaustive study of magical theory. And you can fix almost anything by trial and error if you work on it long enough, without truly understanding the underpinnings of how it works. And you absolutely have to be ruthless to use blood magic to its fullest potential. Crushing someone's heart inside their chest or tearing their veins out of their bodies while they scream and thrash, every movement only making the damage worse, would require incredibly strong nerves, and Merril doesn't have that. And the more subtle uses of blood magic - mind control and biological manipulation and whatnot - aren't something that she has any reason to be interested in. She isn't ambitious and has no desire to bend anyone to her will. I really can't see her putting a lot of effort into becoming a more powerful blood mage of all things. Nothing you're suggesting is impossible, but I don't see anything in the games to indicate that that's how she or her magic would develop. If the need arose, Dorian would distract her, knock her out and send her back down south in a wrapped box before she'd even fully resolved herself to fight him seriously, because he just thinks and strategizes and makes decisions that much quicker and more confidently than she does. Well, it's not like Leliana never had to deal with other rogues before. And Cole's spirit abilities mostly apply to helping people. True, but Zevran has been out-assassinating the best assassins in the world for decades by now. I agree about Cole. His magical properties could potentially make him the most dangerous killer in the world, but he just isn't focused or resolute enough to function that way. I think both Zevran and Leliana could survive him one way or another. Whether they could kill him would be a different matter, though.
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 24, 2019 17:44:35 GMT
Regardless, don't you think Merrill is an expert at Blood Magic now in DA:I as she finally manages to repair her Eluvian? I'm still puzzled why you think finally repairing the eluvian means she is now a powerful blood mage. Blood magic was what she initially used to fix it before but that was unsuccessful and she then decided she needed that specific Dalish crafting tool. Then that didn't work so really it was less about the degree of magical power she possessed and more about the technical knowledge of how to fix it. Marethari was afraid that she would turn to the demon again for advice, which in fact Merrill was going to do before Marethari interfered. The demon was definitely playing both of them so it may well be that it deliberately withheld information that Merrill needed in order that she would have to come back. However, the only proof we have that Merrill even managed to fix it, if she didn't destroy it as she did if you rival her, is apparently an eluvian that looked like hers in the Crossroads. Why couldn't another eluvian have the same design? This clearly must have been the case if she destroyed her eluvian in DA2. Even if it was the connector to her eluvian and that proved it was repaired, why should it be assumed that it was high level blood magic that was needed to fix it? May be she got to see that book from Witch Hunt that was apparently about eluvians. Whilst she was considered something of a pariah to regular Dalish, Ariane might have come into contact with her considering she stayed with Finn after the Warden left them and they continued to travel together. I think she got her book back at the end of Witch Hunt. Whatever the case, I do not feel that fixing the eluvian is sufficient proof of Merrill's magical power, simply her ability to fix magical items, something that Tranquil are also expert at doing even though they are totally cut off from the Fade.
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Post by Iddy on Apr 24, 2019 17:47:56 GMT
Regardless, don't you think Merrill is an expert at Blood Magic now in DA:I as she finally manages to repair her Eluvian? I'm still puzzled why you think finally repairing the eluvian means she is now a powerful blood mage. Blood magic was what she initially used to fix it before but that was unsuccessful and she then decided she needed that specific Dalish crafting tool. Then that didn't work so really it was less about the degree of magical power she possessed and more about the technical knowledge of how to fix it. Marethari was afraid that she would turn to the demon again for advice, which in fact Merrill was going to do before Marethari interfered. The demon was definitely playing both of them so it may well be that it deliberately withheld information that Merrill needed in order that she would have to come back. However, the only proof we have that Merrill even managed to fix it, if she didn't destroy it as she did if you rival her, is apparently an eluvian that looked like hers in the Crossroads. Why couldn't another eluvian have the same design? This clearly must have been the case if she destroyed her eluvian in DA2. Even if it was the connector to her eluvian and that proved it was repaired, why should it be assumed that it was high level blood magic that was needed to fix it? May be she got to see that book from Witch Hunt that was apparently about eluvians. Whilst she was considered something of a pariah to regular Dalish, Ariane might have come into contact with her considering she stayed with Finn after the Warden left them and they continued to travel together. I think she got her book back at the end of Witch Hunt. Whatever the case, I do not feel that fixing the eluvian is sufficient proof of Merrill's magical power, simply her ability to fix magical items, something that Tranquil are also expert at doing even though they are totally cut off from the Fade. Also something that Morrigan did a lot faster.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2019 0:55:31 GMT
My own proof that Merrill rose up to be a powerful Blood Mage by DA:I is that her Eluvian is fixed. The process of fixing the Eluvain proves her lack of competence, not the opposite. Thinking you've got this demon under control while in truth it owns you is no proof of being a great mage.
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