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Post by mugwump on Jan 15, 2021 22:36:11 GMT
What a fascinating amalgam of humour and horror! Anyone else watching this? I'd love to hear your thoughts.
EDIT: Pls tag spoilers for the benefit of those who have yet to check out the show.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Jan 16, 2021 9:28:07 GMT
Just finished the first two episodes. Might need to re-watch them for clues Really liked the sitcom aesthetic and style. Very much enjoyed them.
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Post by mugwump on Jan 16, 2021 9:45:10 GMT
Yeah, I plan on revisiting both episodes sometime this weekend. So much to unpack.
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Post by mousestalker on Jan 16, 2021 11:15:39 GMT
Th laugh track certainly gives it an old timey feel. Are there different laugh tracks? Because it didn't sound the same as modern sit-coms.
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Post by mugwump on Jan 16, 2021 14:41:39 GMT
I read that episodes were filmed in front of a live studio audience.
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Post by cypherj on Jan 16, 2021 17:53:32 GMT
I thought it was alright. Not really into the old 60's show feel. I think I know where the show is going, and just hope they get there sooner than later. I'll stick with it for now.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Jan 16, 2021 18:55:28 GMT
So, some thoughts, after having slept on it. On originally hearing about the series, and knowing Wanda’s reality altering powers, I initially thought that she’d had some kind of mental break, and created - and then accidentally trapped herself in - an alternate reality/pocket dimension type thing.
I don’t recall if the trailers featured the “who is doing this to you, Wanda?” Line? But regardless, it now seems that if my initial thought was once right, her mistake was pounced on by Sword (logo on the document at the end of ep 1 and the coloured helicopter in ep 2). The alternative is that they somehow forced her into this, but given her power level - and the power of some of her friends - that seems a little difficult to believe. Also, lobster doorbells are a thing now. Gotta be.
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Post by mugwump on Jan 16, 2021 21:01:17 GMT
So, some thoughts, after having slept on it. On originally hearing about the series, and knowing Wanda’s reality altering powers, I initially thought that she’d had some kind of mental break, and created - and then accidentally trapped herself in - an alternate reality/pocket dimension type thing.
I don’t recall if the trailers featured the “who is doing this to you, Wanda?” Line? But regardless, it now seems that if my initial thought was once right, her mistake was pounced on by Sword (logo on the document at the end of ep 1 and the coloured helicopter in ep 2). The alternative is that they somehow forced her into this, but given her power level - and the power of some of her friends - that seems a little difficult to believe. Also, lobster doorbells are a thing now. Gotta be. The question of exactly how and why Wanda finds herself in a fake reality is a really interesting one. If I were to guess, I would say that it's probably of her making, though I've an inkling the whole thing's a product of an unconscious mind.
What is clear is that Wanda's being both monitored and manipulated throughout.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Jan 16, 2021 21:33:58 GMT
So, some thoughts, after having slept on it. On originally hearing about the series, and knowing Wanda’s reality altering powers, I initially thought that she’d had some kind of mental break, and created - and then accidentally trapped herself in - an alternate reality/pocket dimension type thing.
I don’t recall if the trailers featured the “who is doing this to you, Wanda?” Line? But regardless, it now seems that if my initial thought was once right, her mistake was pounced on by Sword (logo on the document at the end of ep 1 and the coloured helicopter in ep 2). The alternative is that they somehow forced her into this, but given her power level - and the power of some of her friends - that seems a little difficult to believe. Also, lobster doorbells are a thing now. Gotta be. The question of exactly how and why Wanda finds herself in a fake reality is a really interesting one. If I were to guess, I would say that it's probably of her making, though I've an inkling the whole thing's a product of an unconscious mind.
What is clear is that Wanda's being both monitored and manipulated throughout. Monitored and manipulated, for sure. But also with an element of control.
Ep1 when Eric’s mom was grin/crying for her to “stop it” and she told Vision to help Mr Hart.
Then, more explicitly, ep2 when the...uh...beekeeper came out of the sewer grate, she said “no” and reality rewound and rewrote something she was happy with.
To me that says, yes, she is ‘trapped’, but if the reality she’s in upsets her too much, she might simply break free and the people monitoring her don’t want that to happen. At all.
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Post by mugwump on Jan 16, 2021 23:20:25 GMT
Aye, these first two episodes kind of play out like some semi lucid Kubrickian dream. Pretty confident stuff from Marvel.
Really appreciating the strong cinematography and performances.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2021 7:00:06 GMT
Not a fan of the setting(s), but I love the foreshadow and underlying story. The humour mostly falls short for me but that's due the setting/premise.
Spoilers, lots of em. And a major show prediction at the end.
I've read a few theories online already. Never was a comic-book nerd so don't know have any knowledge base to draw from. The SWORD logo obviously shows up a tonne. Meta-knowledge in terms of how this is setting up the next phase and plays right into Doctor Strange 2 helps too. The theory I've seen that fits best IMHO, is Mephisto. There's a demonic or devilish undercurrent to the show that fits in with the Witch aspect of Scarlet Witch.
That all being said, there's plenty to unpack with or without comic-nerd power.
Gonna gloss over some of the obvious stuff. Mr and Mrs Hart acting weird when he's choking, the radio talking to Wanda, etc.
***
First off, the hexagon symbol used in the ep1 outro, and ep2 intro, seems conspicuous.
***
Vision's tie in ep1. No clue what, but too prominent and odd to be nothing.
Vision in ep2 at the beginning, when he hears the banging on the window, mentions to Wanda, "actually I did overhear a couple of lads at work remarking on a few unsavoury characters circling in the neighbourhood." Wanda passes it off as if they must be talking about Vision himself but this is definitely foreshadow for people (Beekeeper) showing up later in the episode. The fact that they say a "couple" denoting more than one has me wondering too.
***
Agnes, lots of questions there. Like, almost every thing she does has connotation. She enters with a strange knock, curious if that rhythm has a meaning. Sounded like 3-2-2-1-5 but I'm not 100% on that.
Her assumption that Wanda is single struck me as oddly pronounced too. If Vision is a construct or hallucination, then Wanda is in fact single.
One that stands out is when she magically happens to have a huge meal ready to go, and casually says it can be done in a snap when Wanda doesn't let her preheat the oven. Agnes seems to know Wanda has powers, if not precisely who she is. Ties in to her asking about movers earlier too. Her "husband" who has yet to appear onscreen. Hmm... Witches were married to the devil. She's on the house to the LEFT of Wanda yet frames it weirdly. "House to the right, my right, not yours." Left historically has been viewed as lesser, unlucky, or even... demonic. This also makes her boomer-humour "terrible husband" jokes take a whoooooole new meaning.
In ep2 right after Wanda finds the helicopter Agnes shows up. I highly suspect it was Agnes that transformed the helicopter. It'd explain why she was right there. Her first comment is, "look, it's the star of the show!" Again, every single thing this lady says is double-speak.
A few moments later she's leading Wanda to Dotty's house and mentions that Dotty is the key to everything in this town. "Country club memberships, parties, school admissions..." then Wanda replies, "well let's not get ahead of ourselves." Ofc what happens at the end of this episode? She's pregnant...
Shortly after... Dotty, "the devil's in the details." Agnes, "that's not the only place he is." Then we get to the creepy, "for the children" comment from Dotty that everyone but Wanda echos in sync. Gee I wonder which children they are talking about? Again, Wanda gets pregnant...
This hits me with the big long-shot prediction. I think all these women are witches and the "Devil" is trying to birth himself into this dimension via a witch powerful enough. A witch who is vulnerable due to recent heartbreak yet powerful, like Wanda. There's also the nagging feeling that since Vision might not be Vision, Vision could be... Mephisto. And Wanda, well, she magically created rings, and married "Vision" in the first episode. Did she in fact, just marry Mephisto then? Watch Vision carefully, his demeanour seems a lot more serious than he has been throughout the show in that scene.
Vision, "I do. Do you?" Wanda, "yes." *** So there we have it, TL;DR, Wanda got married to Mephisto pretending to be Vision and is having his baby who I suspect is a gate into this dimension/reality/verse for Mephisto. This sets up Mephisto as the big-bad for Dr Strange 2.
***
PS: I liked seeing Emma Caulfield (Anya in Buffy) make an appearance. She's perfect for the role. 1960's demonic housewife. Basically just playing a different version of Anya.
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Post by mugwump on Jan 17, 2021 9:58:50 GMT
There's quite a bit of talk online that Agnes' name and costume accessories suggest she's Agatha Harkness, one of the original witches from the Salem witch trials. I'm not at all familiar with her comic book incarnation, but it appears she was something of a mentor to Wanda.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Jan 17, 2021 19:42:02 GMT
@fuckit That is some impressive theory-crafting It all makes sense, though. Which in the case of this show, probably counts against it Anyway - I've rewatched, and nothing new has jumped out at me, so maybe they're keeping their powder dry for later episodes. Colour will be a welcome addition, though. I've enjoyed the humour and appreciate the stylistic choice made, but I didn't put up a 4K HDR TV to watch new shows in black and white.
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Post by Sifr on Jan 18, 2021 16:54:45 GMT
I felt like Homer Simpson watching Twin Peaks.
"Brilliant... I have absolutely no idea what's going on!"
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Post by mugwump on Jan 18, 2021 23:10:49 GMT
Ok, watched it again and here's my take. The fact that S.W.O.R.D. are both surveilling and attempting to contact "Whos doing this to you?" Wanda suggests to me that they are - or at least were - working in collaboration. I'm guessing Wanda was recruited to investigate the going's on at WestView, a deception designed to ensnare Wanda and precipitate the birth of Mephistos children. I'm thinking Vision is Mephisto. All of which will turn out to be complete gubbins!
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Jan 22, 2021 20:01:04 GMT
Ok, watched it again and here's my take. The fact that S.W.O.R.D. are both surveilling and attempting to contact "Whos doing this to you?" Wanda suggests to me that they are - or at least were - working in collaboration. I'm guessing Wanda was recruited to investigate the going's on at WestView, a deception designed to ensnare Wanda and precipitate the birth of Mephistos children. I'm thinking Vision is Mephisto. All of which will turn out to be complete gubbins! Ep 3 - Now In Colour After the sudden expulsion of Georgia(?), I think, last night, I am starting to revise my theory.
It now seems clear that all the people of the town really live in the town and are at least partly aware of what is going on. So they aren’t constructs, or at least, not all of them.
Vision is the big question mark. Infinity War happened. So we know he’s “not real”, but if he is Mephisto in disguise, why is he increasingly disturbed by the obvious weirdness of the town and it’s people. Why did he try to convince Wanda that their babies coming so quickly wasn’t normal? Only to have her rewind him? Could he be a manifestation of Wanda’s subconscious trying to warn her? And she doesn’t want to hear it, despite occasionally having lucid moments of her own.
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Post by mugwump on Jan 22, 2021 22:49:10 GMT
Ok, watched it again and here's my take. The fact that S.W.O.R.D. are both surveilling and attempting to contact "Whos doing this to you?" Wanda suggests to me that they are - or at least were - working in collaboration. I'm guessing Wanda was recruited to investigate the going's on at WestView, a deception designed to ensnare Wanda and precipitate the birth of Mephistos children. I'm thinking Vision is Mephisto. All of which will turn out to be complete gubbins! Ep 3 - Now In Colour After the sudden expulsion of Georgia(?), I think, last night, I am starting to revise my theory.
It now seems clear that all the people of the town really live in the town and are at least partly aware of what is going on. So they aren’t constructs, or at least, not all of them.
Vision is the big question mark. Infinity War happened. So we know he’s “not real”, but if he is Mephisto in disguise, why is he increasingly disturbed by the obvious weirdness of the town and it’s people. Why did he try to convince Wanda that their babies coming so quickly wasn’t normal? Only to have her rewind him? Could he be a manifestation of Wanda’s subconscious trying to warn her? And she doesn’t want to hear it, despite occasionally having lucid moments of her own. Yeah, it's strange in that Wanda's need for happiness seems to prevent her from acknowledging that anything is amiss, though I'm still sure she is being manipulated in no small way.
I like your take on Vision much more than mine!
EDIT: Perhaps her rewinding the show to avoid having Vision learn too much has more to do with her wanting to forget the past and live out her fantasy than it does any external - demonic - machinations? Could she actually be the antagonist?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2021 6:03:02 GMT
Revisions (pun intended)
I'm not sure about Vision anymore. He doesn't seem in on it. That being said, Vision can't really be "Vision" of course, given how we leave him in Endgame. Maybe Wanda is powering his corpse instead of the Mind Stone? Their powers were directly related so I don't think it's unreasonable. Vision gets to stay around the MCU but in a reduced capacity. I'm not sold on that yet though, there's still something vaguely sinister about him IMHO.
Wanda certainly came off as evil this ep. Between Geraldine's ejection and the wall it seems like confirmation that Wanda is doing it herself. That makes me think she's being manipulated into doing it though. Which tracks with everything else so far. The answer to the question "who's doing this to you?" seems to be "Wanda". But then we find out she got a nudge from Mephisto.
4 episodes left, making me wonder how old her kids will be by the end of the series. Are we seeing a "next generation" for the MCU? Or do they disappear to wrap things up neatly at the end of the series?
Agnes was as cryptic as ever but this ep she seemed... not caring or good, but concerned? She seemed genuinely afraid that Geraldine was alone with Wanda, and not because she'd give up the jig so much as what would happen if she did. Like she was worried that if Wanda was pushed too far she'd destroy everything; as opposed to worrying if Wanda found out that her (or her husbands) evil plan would just fail.
***
The actor that plays the doctor, Randy Oglesby, was a nice surprise. I don't think I've seen him since he played a major role in Star Trek: Enterprise as a Xindi. I rather liked him in that role too. Interesting cast choices so far.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Jan 23, 2021 9:53:56 GMT
Ep 3 - Now In Colour After the sudden expulsion of Georgia(?), I think, last night, I am starting to revise my theory.
It now seems clear that all the people of the town really live in the town and are at least partly aware of what is going on. So they aren’t constructs, or at least, not all of them.
Vision is the big question mark. Infinity War happened. So we know he’s “not real”, but if he is Mephisto in disguise, why is he increasingly disturbed by the obvious weirdness of the town and it’s people. Why did he try to convince Wanda that their babies coming so quickly wasn’t normal? Only to have her rewind him? Could he be a manifestation of Wanda’s subconscious trying to warn her? And she doesn’t want to hear it, despite occasionally having lucid moments of her own. Yeah, it's strange in that Wanda's need for happiness seems to prevent her from acknowledging that anything is amiss, though I'm still sure she is being manipulated in no small way.
I like your take on Vision much more than mine!
EDIT: Perhaps her rewinding the show to avoid having Vision learn too much has more to do with her wanting to forget the past and live out her fantasy than it does any external - demonic - machinations? Could she actually be the antagonist?
Wanda as the antagonist would certainly be a twist, while still in keeping with a common theme of the MCU and superheroes in general; “we create our own demons”. Not sure, myself.
I think she is definitely at least somewhat to blame, for at minimum, the start of everything we’re witnessing, but not sold on the idea that she’s “the big bad”. It would be a bold choice, if handled well with a foreshadowed explanation, though.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Jan 23, 2021 10:00:45 GMT
Revisions (pun intended) I'm not sure about Vision anymore. He doesn't seem in on it. That being said, Vision can't really be "Vision" of course, given how we leave him in Endgame. Maybe Wanda is powering his corpse instead of the Mind Stone? Their powers were directly related so I don't think it's unreasonable. Vision gets to stay around the MCU but in a reduced capacity. I'm not sold on that yet though, there's still something vaguely sinister about him IMHO.
Wanda certainly came off as evil this ep. Between Geraldine's ejection and the wall it seems like confirmation that Wanda is doing it herself. That makes me think she's being manipulated into doing it though. Which tracks with everything else so far. The answer to the question "who's doing this to you?" seems to be "Wanda". But then we find out she got a nudge from Mephisto.
4 episodes left, making me wonder how old her kids will be by the end of the series. Are we seeing a "next generation" for the MCU? Or do they disappear to wrap things up neatly at the end of the series? Agnes was as cryptic as ever but this ep she seemed... not caring or good, but concerned? She seemed genuinely afraid that Geraldine was alone with Wanda, and not because she'd give up the jig so much as what would happen if she did. Like she was worried that if Wanda was pushed too far she'd destroy everything; as opposed to worrying if Wanda found out that her (or her husbands) evil plan would just fail. ***
The actor that plays the doctor, Randy Oglesby, was a nice surprise. I don't think I've seen him since he played a major role in Star Trek: Enterprise as a Xindi. I rather liked him in that role too. Interesting cast choices so far. For my money, Vision can’t be in on it. He’s trying too hard to see the truth - only to be rewound by Wanda when he gets too close.
I agree that the fear Agnes showed was real. It shines through the puppet show facade that is forced on the real residents of the town. But is it simple fight or flight fear, or is she afraid of angering some mastermind that will/might blame her if Wanda regains full control of the situation?
With regards to Wanda’s kids...I think they disappear. They’ve been created in this alternate reality Wanda is powering. Like Vision, when she snaps out of it, they will wink out of existence, is my call. Trouble with the kids is, if bad things happen to them, does Wanda simply keep rewinding and trying again, prolonging the illusion she’s trapped in?
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Post by mugwump on Jan 23, 2021 10:25:52 GMT
Aye, if all the world's a stage and the men and women merely players, then Vision could well be playing the part of Pinocchio.
Regarding the children, given that Monica Rambeau was expelled from the pocket reality in her 70's garb, it seems to me that things manifested within it can exist out.
What a fascinating show.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Jan 23, 2021 10:29:52 GMT
Aye, if all the world's a stage and the men and women merely players, then Vision could well be playing the part of Pinocchio.
Regarding the children, given that Monica Rambeau was expelled from the pocket reality in her 70's garb, it seems to me that things manifested within it can exist out.
What a fascinating show. Good point regarding the clothes, although, as a counterpoint - that I don't necessarily believe - Anges mentions "she has no home". So maybe she's been coming and going and SWORD has a costume department?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2021 11:17:45 GMT
Random thought I glossed over. Why was Dottie's blood red? Just because it was blood, or because it was her blood?
***
Not sure on the clothes part but good catch either way. More fuel for that fire; her necklace is visible after she's ejected. It had a SWORD logo on it to begin with in the construct. Could mean it came in with her then.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Jan 23, 2021 21:37:38 GMT
Random thought I glossed over. Why was Dottie's blood red? Just because it was blood, or because it was her blood?
***
Not sure on the clothes part but good catch either way. More fuel for that fire; her necklace is visible after she's ejected. It had a SWORD logo on it to begin with in the construct. Could mean it came in with her then. Other than her blood and the toy helicopter, did any other items have colour in the first two episodes?
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Post by mugwump on Jan 23, 2021 22:00:29 GMT
The Stark toaster from the first commercial had a bleeping red light.
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