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Post by Serza on Mar 13, 2018 17:59:09 GMT
Yeah. We had our own round for it until y'all came by and said nope...
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Post by Giant Ambush Beetle on Mar 13, 2018 18:10:20 GMT
Yeah. We had our own round for it until y'all came by and said nope... Brits also had a pretty cool round till the US came and said nope. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.280_British280 British, nearly the same performance as 7.62x51 but with only 60% the recoil.
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Post by Lavochkin on Mar 13, 2018 18:24:16 GMT
Kalashnikov specifically did video telling everyone to stop mistaking Czech Vz.58 for one of their rifles To be fair, I can't fault the uninitiated much for mixing up a Vz.58 with an AK. Now, thinking any SMG with a mag that goes into the grip is an "Uzi" OTOH.....
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Post by Serza on Mar 13, 2018 19:14:24 GMT
Uzi? Did anyone mention shekels?
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a tidy workspace is the sign of a deranged mind
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Post by nanotm on Mar 13, 2018 19:23:52 GMT
Doesn't look nearly as stupid as it sounds. But you know what they say about stupid looking things that work. Time and time again a lot of things I found stupid for many years turned out to work really damn well. That taught me the lesson that judging too quickly without having done research and having first hand experience is not the wisest move. To name a gun related example, until a few years a go I would not even have dreamed of owning a rifle a in .223, I did not like that cartridge at all thinking its marginal, tiny and a poodle shooter. I totally was aboard the hate train. Only after gathering unbiased data, getting first hand experience with guns chambered in that caliber, crunching ballistic numbers and also reading reports of field use of that cartridge I slowly came to the conclusion that its not a stupid round at all and that it actually makes a lot of sense. It can't do all for sure but it definitely has its place. And here I am now, owning a rifle in .223 and really liking it. well the long silly weapon made it an accurate and effective round out to 600 meters whilst the standard dinfantear bullpup struggles to be accurate past 100mtrs ..... i was able to hold 1" group with mine at 500 meters despite the fact i hated the damn thing wiht its behind the bullpup mag housing hand grip for the prone position, that said it was better than most other DMR weapons 20 years ago what with being the same calibre as everything else and sharing most of its internals and mags with them, hell when the paraminimi came along with its optional magazine or belt fed its also using the exact same mags housing.... which means if you were lucky enough to get the optional 50/100 rd mags you could shove them on the lsw and just stick to belts on the minimi which was a worthwhile thing to do since it upped your effective range out to between 1100 and 1200 meters (1250meters would no longer have enough energy to penetrate standard military clothing reliably) but a standard 30 round mag wasn't enough to pump enough lead down range to keep the heads down at that distance.... i still loved the minimi and gpmg for ranges out to 300 meters though, they were even effective at shredding shrubs and trees at that range although the shorter barrels were bad for accuracy even that close in... thats where the early Bren shined though since with an optical scope you could get 1" groupings out to 1 mile with relative ease... but after WW2 that level of accuracy became a no no for machine guns.....
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Post by Giant Ambush Beetle on Mar 13, 2018 19:59:26 GMT
i was able to hold 1" group with mine at 500 meters despite the fact i hated the damn thing wiht its behind the bullpup mag housing hand grip for the prone position 1'' at 500 meters is absolute world record precision rifle territory, there is absolutely no way you did a 1'' group at 500, none. 1'' at 500 meters translates into 0.2 MOA, thats the equivalent of a 0.2'' group at 100 yards - 0.5 MOA is already absolute super accuracy for dedicated precision rifles in the 3-5K $ range, and you are telling me you were more than twice as accurate? The world records at 1000 meters are around 4'', thats 2'' groups at 500 meters. And you were twice as accurate? You should not tell fairy tales to people who actually know stuff about firearms.
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Post by nanotm on Mar 13, 2018 21:14:17 GMT
i was able to hold 1" group with mine at 500 meters despite the fact i hated the damn thing wiht its behind the bullpup mag housing hand grip for the prone position 1'' at 500 meters is absolute world record precision rifle territory, there is absolutely no way you did a 1'' group at 500, none. 1'' at 500 meters translates into 0.2 MOA, thats the equivalent of a 0.2'' group at 100 yards - 0.5 MOA is already absolute super accuracy for dedicated precision rifles in the 3-5K $ range, and you are telling me you were more than twice as accurate? The world records at 1000 meters are around 4'', thats 2'' groups at 500 meters. And you were twice as accurate? You should not tell fairy tales to people who actually know stuff about firearms. given that I was shooting the sixpenny group at 100meters i dont see what your point is? plenty of military marksmen and snipers can be super accurate when they have the right gear, a standard LSW with the crappy SUSAT mounted wont do that sort of a job, you wont do it under time pressure and your unlikely to do it with rounds going both ways either but on a lazy Sunday afternoon in optimal conditions with the right optic its not even difficult, i have mentioned that i previously held a sniper qualification in the past (ok it was many years back) and its true almost nobody does that kind of shooting today becasue it costs money and a lot of time and effort, its not worth it for the average everyday DMR user especially given op tempo's and other pressures on troops these days.... but back in the day it wasn't just possible but was encouraged for you to be that good at depot level but frowned on outside team groups at normal units becasue you change the average demographic and pass rates too much.... which is why i ended up wiht the stupid heavy shit like the GPMG that couldn't put 2 rounds out of a thousand within the same 1" square on the side of a barn at 300 meters.... and as with everything super accuracy skills fade over time (along with eyesight) if your dont keep using them.... still since its over 20 years in the past doesn't mean it never happened and just because it never made it into public records databases doesn't mean such things didnt happen regularly (we couldn't go on the sniper course from depot unless we were doing less than 2" grouping at 500 meters) snipers got paid almost half as much again in specialist pay as basic troopers... and basic troopers didnt get paid enough to pay the rent on the married quarter and buy food..... (my wife was pregnant and was going to give up her job so i had a lot of reasons to want to pass that course)
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Post by Giant Ambush Beetle on Mar 13, 2018 21:34:57 GMT
1'' at 500 meters is absolute world record precision rifle territory, there is absolutely no way you did a 1'' group at 500, none. 1'' at 500 meters translates into 0.2 MOA, thats the equivalent of a 0.2'' group at 100 yards - 0.5 MOA is already absolute super accuracy for dedicated precision rifles in the 3-5K $ range, and you are telling me you were more than twice as accurate? The world records at 1000 meters are around 4'', thats 2'' groups at 500 meters. And you were twice as accurate? You should not tell fairy tales to people who actually know stuff about firearms. given that I was shooting the sixpenny group at 100meters i dont see what your point is? plenty of military marksmen and snipers can be super accurate when they have the right gear, a standard LSW with the crappy SUSAT mounted wont do that sort of a job, you wont do it under time pressure and your unlikely to do it with rounds going both ways either but on a lazy Sunday afternoon in optimal conditions with the right optic its not even difficult, i have mentioned that i previously held a sniper qualification in the past (ok it was many years back) and its true almost nobody does that kind of shooting today becasue it costs money and a lot of time and effort, its not worth it for the average everyday DMR user especially given op tempo's and other pressures on troops these days.... but back in the day it wasn't just possible but was encouraged for you to be that good at depot level but frowned on outside team groups at normal units becasue you change the average demographic and pass rates too much.... which is why i ended up wiht the stupid heavy shit like the GPMG that couldn't put 2 rounds out of a thousand within the same 1" square on the side of a barn at 300 meters.... and as with everything super accuracy skills fade over time (along with eyesight) if your dont keep using them.... still since its over 20 years in the past doesn't mean it never happened and just because it never made it into public records databases doesn't mean such things didnt happen regularly (we couldn't go on the sniper course from depot unless we were doing less than 2" grouping at 500 meters) snipers got paid almost half as much again in specialist pay as basic troopers... and basic troopers didnt get paid enough to pay the rent on the married quarter and buy food..... (my wife was pregnant and was going to give up her job so i had a lot of reasons to want to pass that course) 6 pence are 20mm wide, thats a respectable but not unusual group at 100 meters, thats about 0.8 MOA. But you said your groups at 5 times the range were only 5 millimeters bigger, which is 0.2 MOA. To put that into perspective, if you get this kind of accuracy at 500 meters at 100 meters you would not be shooting 6 pence size groups but literally hole in hole. Only the worlds very best shooters with their incredible gear are capable to get CLOSE to that level of accuracy, on a lucky day. Really, I know a lot about precision shooting and I regularly participate at such events, and I can tell with absolute certainty that this is a fairy tale, just ask any precision shooter about 0.2 MOA level accuracy at 500 meters. So please just stop. Completely wrong, military and law enforcement branches all over the world are heavily focusing on DMR and sniper roles lately, many new DMR rifles have been designed and implemented. England just recently got their 7.62 DMR's which are ace, same with Germany. Russia bought Steyr Mannlicher .300WM rifles from us Austrians. They all have learned their lessons from the recent conflicts, especially US who even had to dust off their Vietnam Era M14's and turn them into DMR's in an emergency program. The focus on precision shooting is at an all time high in the military and law enforcement branches, just look at all the equipment that has been developed on that sector lately. The SR25, the SCAR Heavy, M110A1, the G28 and lets not forget all the fitting optics. Oh and by the way, H&K has developed one of the best DMR rifles, the G28, and they guarantee 1.5 MOA accuracy. How does that compare to your 0.2 MOA? You claim to have reached 7 times the accuracy with a sub-par rifle, at half a kilometer. Lavochkin
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Post by mattig89ch on Mar 14, 2018 0:37:18 GMT
So true...
And lighten up the mood, some funny stuff the media is teaching people:
Made me laugh a few times. Hope it manages to do the same with you all!
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Post by Lavochkin on Mar 14, 2018 1:29:54 GMT
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a tidy workspace is the sign of a deranged mind
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Post by nanotm on Mar 14, 2018 17:15:43 GMT
given that I was shooting the sixpenny group at 100meters i dont see what your point is? plenty of military marksmen and snipers can be super accurate when they have the right gear, a standard LSW with the crappy SUSAT mounted wont do that sort of a job, you wont do it under time pressure and your unlikely to do it with rounds going both ways either but on a lazy Sunday afternoon in optimal conditions with the right optic its not even difficult, i have mentioned that i previously held a sniper qualification in the past (ok it was many years back) and its true almost nobody does that kind of shooting today becasue it costs money and a lot of time and effort, its not worth it for the average everyday DMR user especially given op tempo's and other pressures on troops these days.... but back in the day it wasn't just possible but was encouraged for you to be that good at depot level but frowned on outside team groups at normal units becasue you change the average demographic and pass rates too much.... which is why i ended up wiht the stupid heavy shit like the GPMG that couldn't put 2 rounds out of a thousand within the same 1" square on the side of a barn at 300 meters.... and as with everything super accuracy skills fade over time (along with eyesight) if your dont keep using them.... still since its over 20 years in the past doesn't mean it never happened and just because it never made it into public records databases doesn't mean such things didnt happen regularly (we couldn't go on the sniper course from depot unless we were doing less than 2" grouping at 500 meters) snipers got paid almost half as much again in specialist pay as basic troopers... and basic troopers didnt get paid enough to pay the rent on the married quarter and buy food..... (my wife was pregnant and was going to give up her job so i had a lot of reasons to want to pass that course) 6 pence are 20mm wide, thats a respectable but not unusual group at 100 meters, thats about 0.8 MOA. But you said your groups at 5 times the range were only 5 millimeters bigger, which is 0.2 MOA. To put that into perspective, if you get this kind of accuracy at 500 meters at 100 meters you would not be shooting 6 pence size groups but literally hole in hole. Only the worlds very best shooters with their incredible gear are capable to get CLOSE to that level of accuracy, on a lucky day. Really, I know a lot about precision shooting and I regularly participate at such events, and I can tell with absolute certainty that this is a fairy tale, just ask any precision shooter about 0.2 MOA level accuracy at 500 meters. So please just stop. Completely wrong, military and law enforcement branches all over the world are heavily focusing on DMR and sniper roles lately, many new DMR rifles have been designed and implemented. England just recently got their 7.62 DMR's which are ace, same with Germany. Russia bought Steyr Mannlicher .300WM rifles from us Austrians. They all have learned their lessons from the recent conflicts, especially US who even had to dust off their Vietnam Era M14's and turn them into DMR's in an emergency program. The focus on precision shooting is at an all time high in the military and law enforcement branches, just look at all the equipment that has been developed on that sector lately. The SR25, the SCAR Heavy, M110A1, the G28 and lets not forget all the fitting optics. Oh and by the way, H&K has developed one of the best DMR rifles, the G28, and they guarantee 1.5 MOA accuracy. How does that compare to your 0.2 MOA? You claim to have reached 7 times the accuracy with a sub-par rifle, at half a kilometer. Lavochkin all of which shows that before dmr's were a thing they were useful, and the LSW wasn't substandard when it got rolled out in the 90's, after the many thousands of rounds put through hthe average weapon back then though i doubt any of them are capable of the same feats they were, i also note you make no mention of the fact that it was an odd weapon, more accurate at intermediate ranges than at close range, perhaps you were unaware of this aspect of its design.... the LSW was priced at 5k without optics or accessories on rollout (yes you had to buy the parts seperatly) and becasue of its accuracy it was determined that it could not be fitted wiht a better optic than the SUSAT for combat operations in order to meet international conventions on machine guns effective distance & accuracy... shooting multiple rounds through a single hole is not desirable for a ground combat weapon, achieving a particular grouping size at 100meters doesn't prevent you from achieving the same size or similar sized grouping at greater distances, as for what the military is doing now, i really have no idea, the last time i earned a sniper qual i was using a range of weapons including 20mm, 50cal, 308, 7.62, 5.56, 9mm, & .22 on various ranges and we didnt perform for civi's nor show off our ability to plink targets for record books.....there were better shooters than me and most of them did little else other than shoot at various targets all day long, none of them ever got entered into world records either, something about keeping it secret that your guys can shoot straight over long distances.... but then again that was more than 20 years ago and lets face it everything has slipped sideways since then not just discipline and funding
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2018 17:33:19 GMT
Yeah. We had our own round for it until y'all came by and said nope... But sharing (ammo) is caring, comrade! *changes to 5.45mm shortly after*
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Post by Serza on Mar 14, 2018 17:52:55 GMT
Da! Bce xopowo!
Seriously, though, we never changed until BREN and 5.56.
Also the battle plans for war in Europe were kind of a dick move on your country's part, to be honest...
I can tell what I know, but I won't do so if it starts an argument.
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Post by Giant Ambush Beetle on Mar 14, 2018 18:17:27 GMT
shooting multiple rounds through a single hole is not desirable for a ground combat weapon, The more accuracy you can get from a precision rifle or DMR the better. But I particularly mentioned hole in hole accuracy because that is the accuracy potential you claimed to heave reached. A 1'' group at 100 meters can never be a 1'' group at 200 meters. Each projectile leaves the muzzle at a slightly different angle, thats why we shoot groups and don't have perfect hole in hole accuracy. The Angle stays the same for the entire flight path of the projectile till it hits the ground or is diverted by other objects. To get same group sizes at various distances those projectiles would have to correct themselves mid flight, which thy don't. Accuracy is measured in angle from the barrel, that is MOA I have been talking about all the time which did not understand. MOA is Minute Of Angle. If you shoot a 1'' group at 100 meters that is nearly 1 Minute of angle (0.98 or so). At twice the distance the angle stays the same but would result in a 2'' group and so on. It would still be 1 MOA accuracy though, no matter the range. You claimed you shot a 1'' group at 500 meters, which absolutely ridiculous. Reversing MOA this would mean you would have shoot 1/5th of an inch at 100 meters. 1/5th of an inch is a 5 millimeter group, or 0.2 MOA. That is basically hole in hole at 100 meters. This is better than world record level in accuracy and absolutely impossible without very dedicated equipment, hand loaded ammunition that is tuned to your rifle and a very lucky day to achieve that. Anyone who claims to have reached that accuracy at 500 meters is either an absolute world record shooter or someone telling fairy tales. For example, the world record holders shoot 4'' groups at 1000 meters, divided by 10 thats a 0.4 MOA accuracy potential or a 0.4'' group at 100 meters. But you claim to shot twice as good. So the best military snipers in the world who participate in civil sniper events play it down not reveal their super accuracy secret? Thats another fairy tale. Especially since the mechanical accuracy of the rifles they are using is well known, documented and tested, without a shooter in perfect conditions remotely fired they don't reach unearthly accuracy unheard of. Adding a shooter only makes them more inaccurate so there is no secret military magic. Not to mention that dedicated sport precision shooting and the equipment has always been ahead of military precision rifle shooting and equipment.
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a tidy workspace is the sign of a deranged mind
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Post by nanotm on Mar 14, 2018 18:51:13 GMT
shooting multiple rounds through a single hole is not desirable for a ground combat weapon, The more accuracy you can get from a precision rifle or DMR the better. But I particularly mentioned hole in hole accuracy because that is the accuracy potential you claimed to heave reached. If you were educated in the fields of firearms, had real life hands on experience or even a tiny understanding of physics you would know that this is not the case. A 1'' group at 100 meters can never be a 1'' group at 200 meters. Each projectile leaves the muzzle at a slightly different angle, thats why we shoot groups and don't have perfect hole in hole accuracy. The Angle stays the same for the entire flight path of the projectile till it hits the ground or is diverted by other objects. To get same group sizes at various distances those projectiles would have to correct themselves mid flight, which thy don't. Accuracy is measured in angle from the barrel, that is MOA I have been talking about all the time which did not understand. MOA is Minute Of Angle. If you shoot a 1'' group at 100 meters that is nearly 1 Minute of angle (0.98 or so). At twice the distance the angle stays the same but would result in a 2'' group and so on. It would still be 1 MOA accuracy though, no matter the range. You claimed you shot a 1'' group at 500 meters, which absolutely ridiculous. Reversing MOA this would mean you would have shoot 1/5th of an inch at 100 meters. 1/5th of an inch is a 5 millimeter group, or 0.2 MOA. That is basically hole in hole at 100 meters. This is better than world record level in accuracy and absolutely impossible without very dedicated equipment, hand loaded ammunition that is tuned to your rifle and a very lucky day to achieve that. Anyone who claims to have reached that accuracy at 500 meters is either an absolute world record shooter or someone telling fairy tales. For example, the world record holders shoot 4'' groups at 1000 meters, divided by 10 thats a 0.4 MOA accuracy potential or a 0.4'' group at 100 meters. But you claim to shot twice as good. So the best military snipers in the world who participate in civil sniper events play it down not reveal their super accuracy secret? Thats another fairy tale. Especially since the mechanical accuracy of the rifles they are using is well known, documented and tested, without a shooter in perfect conditions remotely fired they don't reach unearthly accuracy unheard of. Adding a shooter only makes them more inaccurate so there is no secret military magic. Not to mention that dedicated sport precision shooting and the equipment has always been ahead of military precision rifle shooting and equipment. which might even be relevant if you know what distance the weapon and optic were calibrated at, you are aware that you can achieve much tighter groupings using mil scopes than imperial ones and that they can achieve far greater accuracy at longer ranges than shorter ones based on your setup? and yes i am aware of what happens in competitions, you zero yourself on the 100 meter range instead of the 500 or 1000 you use different ammo and wonder why your scoring like shit compared to the day before on your normal range.... also you are aware that you can have an inverse accuracy effect if you zero your weapon system at a longer range than your shooting at? that you switch to iron sights below a certain distance because there more accurate than looking through the scope ? yes there are competition shooters who use the same ammo for everything and there better shots for it, there are others who swap depending on what there doing and wonder why their accuracy jumps around.... and there are those who use all the latest high tech gadgetry in an effort to "improve their score" the only thing required is to use a tuned setup for each job or aim off... and before i started using this forum i had never heard of MOA because we never used it we talked about mils when i was in the military
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Post by Giant Ambush Beetle on Mar 14, 2018 19:01:25 GMT
which might even be relevant if you know what distance the weapon and optic were calibrated at, you are aware that you can achieve much tighter groupings using mil scopes than imperial ones and that they can achieve far greater accuracy at longer ranges than shorter ones based on your setup? Absolutely wrong, the kind of reticle you are using has no impact on accuracy. The reticle does not magically make the projectiles leave the muzzle more uniformly. You adjust your optics to the range and then you shoot. Not accurately knowing distance and not adjusting elevation correctly has no impact on your group size as long as you are somewhere on the target. Group size stays the same, you just hit low or high. Again, no matter what you did right or wrong, you reached 0.2 MOA or 5 millimeters at 100 meters and as I said multiple times, no matter what happened this is better than world record level. This surely did not happen no matter the reticle, or any other factors. Anyway, I love Hickoks 6.8. I especially like the color, all black and tan get boring after a while. This is one seriously sexy rifle.
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Post by mattig89ch on Mar 14, 2018 19:02:56 GMT
aren't military scopes, and match grade ammo stupid expensive though?
Also, some just fun with a Galil.
I love that chuckle after his burst round. Clearly he really enjoyed himself there.
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Post by Giant Ambush Beetle on Mar 14, 2018 19:08:32 GMT
aren't military scopes, and match grade ammo stupid expensive though? Depends, the military is using many civilian scopes, for example Leupold and Nigthtforce, the same scopes competition shooters are using. I used to have a Meopta R1 4-15x42 which the Czechs are using on their military precision rifles. Scopes of that quality can be had for 1000 - 2600 bucks which is not that expensive. Scopes that are being made for the civilian market are already cutting edge technology so there really is no reason to make military scopes, they would be basically the same as high quality civilian scopes. Even the reticles are cutting edge. Only optics for recoilless rifles, RPG's, or anti tank cannons are specifically made for the military since there is no application for those optics in the civilian sector. Also match grade Ammunition is not that expensive because any respectable precision shooter buys the components and makes the ammo himself, custom tuned to his rifle. Making ammunition yourself and tuning it to your individual rifle can increase the accuracy quite dramatically, sometimes up to 100%. And buying components is much cheaper than buying less accurate match ammo. And making stuff yourself is always tons of fun.
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Post by nanotm on Mar 14, 2018 19:49:05 GMT
which might even be relevant if you know what distance the weapon and optic were calibrated at, you are aware that you can achieve much tighter groupings using mil scopes than imperial ones and that they can achieve far greater accuracy at longer ranges than shorter ones based on your setup? Absolutely wrong, the kind of reticle you are using has no impact on accuracy. The reticle does not magically make the projectiles leave the muzzle more uniformly. You adjust your optics to the range and then you shoot. Not accurately knowing distance and not adjusting elevation correctly has no impact on your group size as long as you are somewhere on the target. Group size stays the same, you just hit low or high. Again, no matter what you did right or wrong, you reached 0.2 MOA or 5 millimeters at 100 meters and as I said multiple times, no matter what happened this is better than world record level. This surely did not happen no matter the reticle, or any other factors. Anyway, I love Hickoks 6.8. I especially like the color, all black and tan get boring after a while. This is one seriously sexy rifle. your ignoring convergence /divergence, if the focal point is set at 500 meters then you will be more accurate at that distance.... i could shoot a 1moa at 100 meters and still shoot a 0.2moa at 500 meters just by changing my zero.... you do know that theres more than one type of sight and multiple types of focusing lens ? moa is only truly applicable to weapons that are zero'd at 100yards with one type of sight.....
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Post by Giant Ambush Beetle on Mar 14, 2018 21:09:53 GMT
i could shoot a 1moa at 100 meters and still shoot a 0.2moa at 500 meters just by changing my zero.... you do know that theres more than one type of sight and multiple types of focusing lens ? I do not even know why I keep replying as you do not know even the most fundamental basics of shooting. Zero has nothing to do with group size, zeroing is matching the point of impact of your rifle with your scope, so basically that you are shooting where the reticle is pointing at. This has nothing to with group sizes, even if you are not hitting where the reticle is pointing at, the group size will be the same size. Its just somewhere on the paper, 5'' to the left or whatever. Focal point has an impact on the range finder of your scope and reticle width which again, has nothing to do with group size. You keep throwing around ill informed stuff and technical words to mask your fairy tale. Sorry but I actually do that kind of shooting and its really obvious to me what you are trying to accomplish here. I used MOA to describe a rifle accuracy potential, this has nothing to do with the scope and can be universally applied to all kind of weapons, even with iron sights. It also has nothing to fdo with the range, a Minute of Angle can apply to any distance. I already explained what MOA means but you missed it completely judging by what you are posting. Again, you mentioned you shoot a 5mm group at 100 meters and a 1'' group at 500 meters. Sorry, but that definitely did not happen.
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Post by nanotm on Mar 14, 2018 23:42:47 GMT
i could shoot a 1moa at 100 meters and still shoot a 0.2moa at 500 meters just by changing my zero.... you do know that theres more than one type of sight and multiple types of focusing lens ? I do not even know why I keep replying as you do not know even the most fundamental basics of shooting. Zero has nothing to do with group size, zeroing is matching the point of impact of your rifle with your scope, so basically that you are shooting where the reticle is pointing at. This has nothing to with group sizes, even if you are not hitting where the reticle is pointing at, the group size will be the same size. Its just somewhere on the paper, 5'' to the left or whatever. Focal point has an impact on the range finder of your scope and reticle width which again, has nothing to do with group size. You keep throwing around ill informed stuff and technical words to mask your fairy tale. Sorry but I actually do that kind of shooting and its really obvious to me what you are trying to accomplish here. I used MOA to describe a rifle accuracy potential, this has nothing to do with the scope and can be universally applied to all kind of weapons, even with iron sights. It also has nothing to fdo with the range, a Minute of Angle can apply to any distance. I already explained what MOA means but you missed it completely judging by what you are posting. Again, you mentioned you shoot a 5mm group at 100 meters and a 1'' group at 500 meters. Sorry, but that definitely did not happen. if you set the convergence point at 500 meters your moa will be 1 at 500 meters, if you set your convergence point at 100 meters your moa will be 1 at 100 meters ...... a weapon system balanced for precision at 500 meters will have the sight physically located in a different place to one set up at 100 meters (if your doing it properly) thus the angle is changed .... meaning the MOA is changed..... yes its physically possible to achieve by anyone and its the reason why some folks have witness marks on the side of their weapon so they can achieve more precision shots at different ranges, i know i had 4 witness marks on mine set for 100meters 300 meters 500 meters and 700 meters because you couldn't physically aim off far enough to remain on target and still see the target through the scope at distance (and thats without windage corrections)
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Post by Giant Ambush Beetle on Mar 15, 2018 0:00:55 GMT
I do not even know why I keep replying as you do not know even the most fundamental basics of shooting. Zero has nothing to do with group size, zeroing is matching the point of impact of your rifle with your scope, so basically that you are shooting where the reticle is pointing at. This has nothing to with group sizes, even if you are not hitting where the reticle is pointing at, the group size will be the same size. Its just somewhere on the paper, 5'' to the left or whatever. Focal point has an impact on the range finder of your scope and reticle width which again, has nothing to do with group size. You keep throwing around ill informed stuff and technical words to mask your fairy tale. Sorry but I actually do that kind of shooting and its really obvious to me what you are trying to accomplish here. I used MOA to describe a rifle accuracy potential, this has nothing to do with the scope and can be universally applied to all kind of weapons, even with iron sights. It also has nothing to fdo with the range, a Minute of Angle can apply to any distance. I already explained what MOA means but you missed it completely judging by what you are posting. Again, you mentioned you shoot a 5mm group at 100 meters and a 1'' group at 500 meters. Sorry, but that definitely did not happen. if you set the convergence point at 500 meters your moa will be 1 at 500 meters, if you set your convergence point at 100 meters your moa will be 1 at 100 meters ...... a weapon system balanced for precision at 500 meters will have the sight physically located in a different place to one set up at 100 meters (if your doing it properly) thus the angle is changed .... meaning the MOA is changed..... yes its physically possible to achieve by anyone and its the reason why some folks have witness marks on the side of their weapon so they can achieve more precision shots at different ranges, i know i had 4 witness marks on mine set for 100meters 300 meters 500 meters and 700 meters because you couldn't physically aim off far enough to remain on target and still see the target through the scope at distance (and thats without windage corrections) And you STILL do not get what accuracy MOA means, this is utterly amazing. Again, 1 Minute Of Angle means shooting a group that is one inch in diameter at 100 meters. Minute of Angle is an Angle starting at the shooter, with 1 MOA the angle translates into a cone that is one inch in diameter at 100 meters. Therefore, the cone widens to 2'' at double the distance - and so forth. You can have a 5 MOA cone if you suck at shooting, that means a 5'' group at 100, a 10'' at 200..... 1 MOA at 500 meters means shooting 5 inch group. When talking about groups MOA is not fixed to any distance and it has absolutely zero to do with your scope, iron sights or any other adjustment. Its just sys what kind of accuracy you get. Do you finally get MOA? MOA is an angle. So now that you finally understand that, you said you shot a 1'' group at 500 meters. According to what I just said its really easy to understand and to calculate that the accuracy you claimed to achieve is therefore 0.2 MOA. 1 Inch at 500 meters is 1/5th of an Inch MOA. Thats 2.5 millimeters at 50 meters, 5 millimeters at 100 meters...until we arrive at 500 meters where the cone is finally 1 Inch in diameter, meaning you get a shot spread of exactly 1 Inch. Heckler & Koch with their G28 DMR rifle guarantee 1.5' MOA accuracy. What does this mean now? Huh? Yes, 0.7'' groups at 50 meters, 1.5'' groups at 100 meters, 7.5'' groups at 500 meters and so on. Now the outrageous thing is you said you shot a 1'' group at 500 meters, if you turn the group into a cone and track it back to the shooter that translates into a 0.5 inch group size at 250 meters and a 5 millimeter group at 100 meters. Now 5 millimeter group at 100 meters is a record breaking group, and we are talking about world record class here, like hole in hole accuracy. Now we do know that the best shooters in the world shoot approx 4'' groups at 1000 meters, now if we track it back with MOA that means they would get 2'' at 500 meters and 0.4 MOA at 100 meters, thats a 0.4'' group at 100. So you claim you have double the accuracy than the world elite in shooting sports, which is quite frankly a complete fairy tale. If you do not believe me, go to any precision shooter and tell them you got 1'' group at 500 meters with a military issue rifle and commercial ammo and wait for his reaction. This all has absolutely zero to do with sights, the scope, adjustments, it has nothing to do with windage, or elevation. Its purely the group size at various distances. Using MOA when click adjusting sights or scopes is something else entirely. Here is one of the rifles that shoot 4'' groups at 1000 meters, which is only HALF as good as the accuracy you claim to have achieved. 300 WM Ackley improved, single shot, watercooled barrel, 45lbs rifle with a special rest and ammunition loaded at the scene to take the weather conditions into account. And some of the other record holders:
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2018 0:16:45 GMT
Da! Bce xopowo! Seriously, though, we never changed until BREN and 5.56. Also the battle plans for war in Europe were kind of a dick move on your country's part, to be honest... I can tell what I know, but I won't do so if it starts an argument. I'm a little curious but I'd rather not fight over it I've handled/shot 58s before and they're very nice. You could probably have just changed them to NATO ammo and still had a really good, light rifle. You know who else is a fan? Manca from Polenar Don't really know anything about the BREN, though. Looks kind of like SCAR but not overpriced.
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Post by nanotm on Mar 15, 2018 0:50:25 GMT
if you set the convergence point at 500 meters your moa will be 1 at 500 meters, if you set your convergence point at 100 meters your moa will be 1 at 100 meters ...... a weapon system balanced for precision at 500 meters will have the sight physically located in a different place to one set up at 100 meters (if your doing it properly) thus the angle is changed .... meaning the MOA is changed..... yes its physically possible to achieve by anyone and its the reason why some folks have witness marks on the side of their weapon so they can achieve more precision shots at different ranges, i know i had 4 witness marks on mine set for 100meters 300 meters 500 meters and 700 meters because you couldn't physically aim off far enough to remain on target and still see the target through the scope at distance (and thats without windage corrections) And you STILL do not get what accuracy MOA means, this is utterly amazing. Again, 1 Minute Of Angle means shooting a group that is one inch in diameter at 100 meters. Minute of Angle is an Angle starting at the shooter, with 1 MOA the angle translates into a cone that is one inch in diameter at 100 meters. Therefore, the cone widens to 2'' at double the distance - and so forth. You can have a 5 MOA cone if you suck at shooting, that means a 5'' group at 100, a 10'' at 200..... 1 MOA at 500 meters means shooting 5 inch group. When talking about groups MOA is not fixed to any distance and it has absolutely zero to do with your scope, iron sights or any other adjustment. Its just sys what kind of accuracy you get. Do you finally get MOA? MOA is an angle. So now that you finally understand that, you said you shot a 1'' group at 500 meters. According to what I just said its really easy to understand and to calculate that the accuracy you claimed to achieve is therefore 0.2 MOA. 1 Inch at 500 meters is 1/5th of an Inch MOA. Thats 2.5 millimeters at 50 meters, 5 millimeters at 100 meters...until we arrive at 500 meters where the cone is finally 1 Inch in diameter, meaning you get a shot spread of exactly 1 Inch. Now the outrageous thing is you said you shot a 1'' group at 500 meters, if you turn the group into a cone and track it back to the shooter that translates into a 0.5 inch group size at 250 meters and a 5 millimeter group at 100 meters. Now 5 millimeter group at 100 meters is a record breaking group, and we are talking about world record class here, like hole in hole accuracy. Now we do know that the best shooters in the world shoot approx 4'' groups at 100 meters, now if we track it back with MOA that means they would get 2'' at 500 meters and 0.4 MOA at 100 meters, thats a 0.4'' group at 100. And you claim you have double the accuracy than them, which is quite frankly a complete fairy tale. This all has absolutely zero to do with sights, the scope, adjustments. Its purely the group size at various distances. yes with a standard sight this is true becasue they have a divergent sight picture, not all sights work this way..... some sights use prisms and mirrors to change the sight picture so that you are the fat end of the cone and the aim point in the thin end (hence why you have to set the zero for each range, and move the sight along the weapon) i guess you've never used the mil sights and seen this in action (looks bloody funny watching someone who's zero'd to 500 meters pointing 3 foot below the target at 25 meters and wondering why they cant even see the dirt splash)
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Post by Giant Ambush Beetle on Mar 15, 2018 0:54:45 GMT
yes with a standard sight this is true becasue they have a divergent sight picture, not all sights work this way..... some sights use prisms and mirrors to change the sight picture so that you are the fat end of the cone and the aim point in the thin end (hence why you have to set the zero for each range, and move the sight along the weapon) You understood absolutely nothing what I said. I'll stop here, its hopeless. Aaaaaanyway, my favorite YT channel testing a shotgun load which I have loaded and used myself. Buck & Ball! Also bearing balls made of steel!
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