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The night is dark and full of terrors, but the fire burns them all away.
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Post by House Targaryen on Jan 17, 2020 23:16:28 GMT
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Post by Serza on Jan 18, 2020 14:08:26 GMT
Well, if you're a lobotomy patient...
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Post by smilesja on Jan 18, 2020 21:23:55 GMT
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Post by Hier0phant on Jan 20, 2020 2:57:49 GMT
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Post by Evil on Jan 20, 2020 21:59:09 GMT
Dooku did the maths right:
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Post by colfoley on Jan 20, 2020 22:07:20 GMT
So I watched all three sequel trilogy movies last night and man was it an interesting experience. With Rise of Skywalker and the endgame out of the way we can see the entire picture and there is a lot of stuff that makes a lot more sense in hindsight, some stuff that Rise adds a lot of new context to, there is actually some surprising places for set up and payoff within the three movies...and well Rise seems to make TLJ an even better movie.
Perhaps the biggest nugget here though was that JJ was still involved with TLJ on some level and talking to someone else on this him and Kathleen got together with Rian and basically rubber stamped his story ideas...now not saying anything was 'planned' per se but its interesting that all the talk in the fandom about how poorly this trilogy flows and how much the movies are at war with one another...just does not hold up. Rian may've sent the franchise in a different direction then JJ originally intended with TFA but he still approved of the ideas and given that he ended up directing 9 he thought there was something there he could work with...and he did. It is also REALLY coincedental...I am sure...that the Emperor's theme plays when Snoke is torturing Rey...I mean where the heck did that come from?! Its not like there wasn't a connection to the two...nope no way they had any idea where they were going with this. On that subject its also really interesting that Rey specifically references fearing her own power in Last Jedi making that particular character choice in Rise not out of left field as I thought.
I had a lot more stuff that I found interesting but that is pretty much the big ones.
Edit: Oh and also there really is not a lot connecting Rey to Luke Skywalker as some people think there was...more stuff connecting her to Palps honestly.
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Post by Hier0phant on Jan 21, 2020 4:42:06 GMT
now not saying anything was 'planned' per se but its interesting that all the talk in the fandom about how poorly this trilogy flows and how much the movies are at war with one another...just does not hold up. Rian may've sent the franchise in a different direction then JJ originally intended with TFA but he still approved of the ideas and given that he ended up directing 9 he thought there was something there he could work with...and he did. This bit confirms that it wasn't planned in advance and it was just made up as they went along with little oversight. There's Hux, Poe being different characters, the ignoring and repetition of finn's character arc from TFA in TLJ, Maz giving Rey Anakin's saber remaining a mystery, Luke tossing his first lightsaber away like trash in TLJ but coveting Leia's lightsaber in TRoS, his X-Wing being revealed to be fully functional the entire time which retroactively makes his death via hologram pointless, and Palpatine/Snoke having contradictory plans for Rey, and Kylo are simple details that JJ overlooked which is sloppy and calls into question how closely they observed the other's script or their knowledge of the other's final draft. The difference between Lucas improvising during the Original Trilogy versus Kathleen Kennedy's attempt is that Lucas actively served as oversight and was fully engaged in the production of the OT, unifying it under a singular vision. Trevorrow didn't have Palpatine's return in his script for EP IX... "Bringing back the Emperor was an idea J.J. brought to the table when he came abroad," said Trevorrow. "It's honestly something i never considered. I commend him for it. That's a tough story to unlock, and he found the key". www.flickeringmyth.com/2019/11/colin-trevorrow-says-the-emperor-didnt-feature-in-his-plans-for-star-wars-episode-ix/
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Post by colfoley on Jan 21, 2020 5:05:05 GMT
now not saying anything was 'planned' per se but its interesting that all the talk in the fandom about how poorly this trilogy flows and how much the movies are at war with one another...just does not hold up. Rian may've sent the franchise in a different direction then JJ originally intended with TFA but he still approved of the ideas and given that he ended up directing 9 he thought there was something there he could work with...and he did. This bit confirms that it wasn't planned in advance and it was just made up as they went along with little oversight. There's Hux, Poe being different characters, the ignoring and repetition of finn's character arc from TFA in TLJ, Maz giving Rey Anakin's saber remaining a mystery, Luke tossing his first lightsaber away like trash in TLJ but coveting Leia's lightsaber in TRoS, his X-Wing being revealed to be fully functional the entire time which retroactively makes his death via hologram pointless, and Palpatine/Snoke having contradictory plans for Rey, and Kylo are simple details that JJ overlooked which is sloppy and calls into question how closely they observed the other's script or their knowledge of the other's final draft. The difference between Lucas improvising during the Original Trilogy versus Kathleen Kennedy's attempt is that Lucas actively served as oversight and was fully engaged in the production of the OT, unifying it under a singular vision. Trevorrow didn't have Palpatine's return in his script for EP IX... "Bringing back the Emperor was an idea J.J. brought to the table when he came abroad," said Trevorrow. "It's honestly something i never considered. I commend him for it. That's a tough story to unlock, and he found the key". www.flickeringmyth.com/2019/11/colin-trevorrow-says-the-emperor-didnt-feature-in-his-plans-for-star-wars-episode-ix/ So... No they weren't either, I mean I think you are reffering to Hux being a traitor? That was the clear impression I got in TLJ given the dirty looks he was shooting Kylo...HELL he almost killed Kylo in TLJ. He hated the man and that antagonism was set up in TFA. As far as Poe you only assume he is a different character if you ignore the events of TLJ and assume he didn't have enough time to sort of get used to his new role and responsibilities. Finn meanwhile had no real character arc in Rise, is was in TLJ and he really didn't have any growing to do...think of that what you will. You mean how Maz found it in the first place? Yes the 'story for another time' is an annoying piece of bad writing, but it really doesen't matter at the end of the day. She had it, gave it to Rey, interesting things were done with it. It is a fairly interesting thought about the lightsabers and a good point, especially just how not caring Luke became about...everything...however he wasn't actually using the thing and had no need to do so so...not a big issue. Another fairly interesting point actually and one that may actually change things. However Hyperdrive is never really consistent in Star Wars...and we are never given good information on the time and distances involved to know if he would've made it in time. Besides had he continued to live it wouldn't have served one of the things he was trying to do in the first place...so had the X-Wing worked or not it wouldn't really have changed things and both plot points are still fairly awesome. Snoke and Palpatine really didn't have contradictory plans for Rey. This is Palpatine we are talking about he never cared about HER just wanted to turn her to the darkside so she could become Empress. But Kylo would've served his purposes just as well and had Kylo killed her in Snoke's throne room there would've been nothing to stop his full descent to the darkside. And this is always what he has been doing throughout the trilogy and the various expanded universes, pitting one person against another and the victor serves him. Anakin and Dooku, Vader and Luke, Rey and Kylo....either one of them would've served his purposes well. And so? Palpetine not being in the original script does not have much bearing on the current movie and Trevorrow seems to think Abrams did good things with it, I do too, so moving on.
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Post by colfoley on Jan 21, 2020 6:01:59 GMT
So bit of a risk posting this here but meh its what I feel like this, tear me apart if you want.
So I have been thinking a lot about what Star Wars means to me since the Rise of Skywalker came out, lets just say I’ve kind of been doing a lot of reflecting on it now that the ‘Skywalker Saga’ is over and we can look back on 42 years of filmmaking. A franchise that has always been with me, my first real big fandom...and in a lot of this reflection I have realized and remembered exactly how much these 9 movies have meant to me, warts and all. How much they have taught me, shaped my tastes, defined my morality, and just how much joy they have given me...so I’ve been really wanting to do *something* to honor and put into perspective my thoughts on Star Wars.
Fortunately, there have been a bunch of Youtubers who have gotten together to share their takes on it, their idea was to share one scene, moment, or idea that was quintessentially Star Wars...to define it and break it down into one aspect that just...well it's called Star Wars Defined so there it is.
But I don’t have a Youtube...nor do I have a blog...at least not yet. But I have felt compelled to share my take on this and share it as far and wide as I can and I do have various social media channels. Because in the last few weeks Rise of Skywalker has made me realize just how much I love these movies, how much they have meant to me, and I just want to commit this idea to some form before I forget.
So for me, this is Star Wars defined: Title: Rey-The Everywoman Scene: Kylo Ren reveals the truth about her family to her...Star Wars: The Last Jedi:
So let's talk about Rey for a second, this is a character that has gotten a lot of flack for a lot of different reasons...and I disagree with it pure and simple. I love this character...for a wide variety of reasons, so there are my biases and my thoughts and my acknowledgment that I am not going to really talk about her supposedly controversial aspects because to me that conversation is purely academic...it does not matter in the end or affect who she is and how important she is to me personally and I believe can be for the rest of society.
So picture the scene: Rey and Kylo Ren have just defeated Snoke’s Praetorian guard, the throne room is on fire...and Rey goes to Ben to implore him to save the Resistance and stop firing. He refuses.
And then he drops the bombshell on her, that her parents were nobody special, and that she is nobody special because of it. How wrong he is on that little point btw.
This is probably, to me anyway, the single most important scene in Star Wars since at least the Original Trilogy because it changes everything about it, recontextualizes the past, while charting a new course for the future. She is no one special. She is related to no one special. She is no one. And yet she has incredible power, incredible potential for goodness, her being no one is the entire point of her character. She can be someone we can relate to.
And if anyone missed the point then the last scene of the Last Jedi is set on Canto Bight, checking in on the slave children, we see one of them using the Force to retrieve a broom, a no one child from nowhere unremarked had the Force, doubling down on the important message of Rey being no one.
Because you see back in 1977 we are first introduced to Luke Skywalker he too is an everyman, he too was no one. Sure he had an epic last name and we got some hint at Anakin Skywalker from the beginning but he was just a farmer from the outer rim of the Galaxy looking to the stars dreaming of adventure. Something that I think most of us can at least sympathize with...again he was the everyman, a concept in literature with the Hero’s Journey by Joseph Campbell.
Until he wasn’t:
“No, I am your father.”
Vader’s words to Luke changed everything. With this, Star Wars planted the seed from being about everyone to the implication that you needed to have the proper bloodline to have the Force. It was the first subtle division from Star Wars, the Jedi, and their audience.
Then the Return of the Jedi doubled down on this, because suddenly not only was Luke related to Anakin...but so was Leia. So in Star Wars everyone was related to someone important and it really wasn’t a place for normal people anymore. In effect, it was a place for super-powered heroes on their pedestals, a nice ideal to strive for, but never reach ourselves.
Luke would use this relation to redeem Vader and in an epic conclusion to three movies that changed cinema forever...the lesson was there. Family was important and could help be a redemptive force as long as you chose to do good. Luke became the ideal hero whose commitment to the Light Side of the Force and his refusal to let his father die in darkness ended up saving them both…
But then the prequels came along, and they took this idea of bloodlines up to eleven. Any effort to make the Jedi and these heroes relatable was swept under the rug.
Suddenly Star Wars was about...war and politics and grand sweeping bombast.
The Jedi were arrogant, stodgy, aristocrats who were so isolated from society that they claimed to serve that most thought of them as some sort of myth.
The Senate was a corrupt bloated bureaucracy with little good about it.
And our protagonist was literally chosen by the Force to bring balance to it.
Along the way we were introduced to concepts like midichlorians, furthering the divide...now not only did you need a bloodline to have the Force but you needed a certain amount of special microscopic super organisms to make you be a Jedi...to give you access to the Force. This suggests that most of us even if we were born in Star Wars wouldn’t ever have the Force to begin with.
Even worse still basic human emotions and stuff that makes us human was actively shunned by the ‘good guys’. Love and attachment were bad, Anakin fell to the dark side and turned into a mass murderer because of it, other normal rational emotions like anger...fear… and compassion was called into question. Stuff that are a natural part of being human were seemingly being actively shunned by the prequels, called dirty. Was this the point Lucas was trying to say or did the Jedi have an improper idea about the Force?
You’ll have to forgive the interpretation but to me that was the fundamental question I was left with at the end of the prequels. Whether all of this was a mistake on the part of the Jedi or was Lucas really telling us that all things human was wrong and bad and corrupting.
But this severed the reliability between us and our heroes. Sure there were great character moments and great performances sprinkled here and there but the Jedi, the guardians of peace and justice was forever out of reach...forever corrupted. The movies themselves seemed to say that the Force would forever be out of reach of us normal, midichlorianless, emotional humans and even if we did have it we would just fall to the dark side and be turned into mass murderers simply for having human emotion.
This was the final word of the Star Wars saga.
Until it wasn’t.
The Force Awakens came out...what a title! And we were instantly introduced to a small scale scene. A small group of soldiers going to a small village in the middle of the Jakku desert, another singular agent of the Resistance trying to look for a map to Luke Skywalker...the last hope of the galaxy. We are introduced to Kylo Ren, the new master of the dark side of the Force...a small, intimate set-piece where characters were playing off one another.
Gone were the epic bombast, the politics, without a single mention of midichlorians. Just groups of people trying to do what they thought was right which would bring them into conflict. Star Wars was human again.
This is even before we are introduced to our heroine of these new movies…
And then we are. We are introduced to Rey. She is alone. Insignificant. Nothing and no one against the large monuments to ancient wars behind her, nothing compared to the sweeping Jakku wastes that she calls home. Barely surviving in this day to day existence without even a last name to call her own. She is just Rey.
In a crazy inverse to Luke she herself is humble, good, and dreams of adventure...whereas Luke couldn’t wait to get away from his home she wants to stay in hers. Waiting for her family to come to rescue her and give her life purpose.
In the exact opposite of Anakin she is no one special, no prophesied hero chosen by the Force to save the day. No chosen one. She is no one.
But because this is Star Wars...and because of some of these very choices the theories started almost instantly, inviting speculation on who her family is because family is the most important thing in Star Wars:
Is she a Skywalker? This would continue on the story of the Skywalker Saga perfectly and honor the idea of continued bloodlines.
Is she a Solo? This would make the new trilogy a basic retelling of the Jaina Jacen Solo story from the EU.
Is she a Kenobi? Because Star Wars is poetry and a Kenobi trained a Skywalker so it would be cool if a Skywalker would then train a Kenobi.
Is she a clone of Palpatine? Because cloning is a thing and this fandom is weird.
All of these theories were spinning around in our two-year wait between The Force Awakens and its Sequel.
Then we got to the Last Jedi, almost from the get-go in one of their first scenes together the movie is reminding us that she is no one.
Luke: Where are you from? Rey: Nowhere. Luke: No one is from nowhere. Rey: Jakku. Luke: Alright, that is pretty much nowhere.
The movie is making it clear, reminding us that she is no one from nowhere.
Then we get to the scene in question, this all-important scene. Kylo tells her that her parents were no one special, she has no unique bloodline to call her own, no place in the story, no meaning to her life. Except that is the entire point of her character, what they have spent two movies leading and building towards…
She is no one because she is everyone and we are all her, once again you don’t need a bloodline to be important in Star Wars and use the Force. Once again you can be just a normal person who can do the right thing if you are called into it. You can make the right choice and be good without a high level of microscopic life forms in your blood or without being a Skywalker or a Kenobi or a Windu. You can just be a scavenger girl from Jakku with no relations...yet still, rise to become a hero when destiny or fate or dumb luck calls upon you.
And contrary to what might be the popular opinion going around the rest of the movie, and the Rise of Skywalker justifies and doubles down on that choice, doubling down on her lack of significance.
Surprise she is a Palpatine! Except she rejects that lineage and it rejects her.
Palpatine: You are nothing! A scavenger girl is no match for the power in me! I am *all* the Sith.
At the end of the day, the movie is telling us her lineage does not matter, all of the choices in these films make it clear that no matter what her bloodline or her lineage is in the end in her context that does not matter. She chose to be no one. She forged her own identity for herself and for purposes from a narrative standpoint, this allows for the same in the audience.
All of this so well written, so excellently portrayed by Daisy Ridley, and so very relatable. She is a hero that can be any of us, and I see a lot of myself and my struggles on her own. That your human nature, your anger, your passion, your love, and compassion does not have to doom you to a dark path. Because she spends a lot of these movies being angry and scared and rageful. That if she can resist the dark side and be good with all her problems then so you can be a normal human with normal human issues and choose to be better. And this is why I love the character so much because she is a reminder to me of all of this.
And I cannot think of a better moral lesson for the Star Wars saga here at the end.
Star Wars is all about family, her arc is not a rejection of it but the idea that family can be found...it can be chosen. It can be greater than ties of blood...especially if your blood just so happens to be Space Hitler. You can choose a different family, you can choose to surround yourself with good people, you can choose to not be a Palpatine...a legacy of hate and violence and evil...but a Skywalker...a legacy of compassion, heroism, and peace. That who you are is more than your titles or who your parents are, they can be a part of you, but that does not have to define you.
Which is a very important idea in today’s world. A world that is intent on rising up certain families to rule over us all and seek to divide us by orientation or political party or ties or race and blood. Rey’s lesson here is none of that matters and none of that has to shape who we are.
At the end of the day we are all complicated individuals beyond such broad titles, and I cannot think of a better lesson for Star Wars to leave off on...42 years after A New Hope hit theaters.
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Post by Hier0phant on Jan 21, 2020 8:05:50 GMT
This bit confirms that it wasn't planned in advance and it was just made up as they went along with little oversight. There's Hux, Poe being different characters, the ignoring and repetition of finn's character arc from TFA in TLJ, Maz giving Rey Anakin's saber remaining a mystery, Luke tossing his first lightsaber away like trash in TLJ but coveting Leia's lightsaber in TRoS, his X-Wing being revealed to be fully functional the entire time which retroactively makes his death via hologram pointless, and Palpatine/Snoke having contradictory plans for Rey, and Kylo are simple details that JJ overlooked which is sloppy and calls into question how closely they observed the other's script or their knowledge of the other's final draft. The difference between Lucas improvising during the Original Trilogy versus Kathleen Kennedy's attempt is that Lucas actively served as oversight and was fully engaged in the production of the OT, unifying it under a singular vision. Trevorrow didn't have Palpatine's return in his script for EP IX... "Bringing back the Emperor was an idea J.J. brought to the table when he came abroad," said Trevorrow. "It's honestly something i never considered. I commend him for it. That's a tough story to unlock, and he found the key". www.flickeringmyth.com/2019/11/colin-trevorrow-says-the-emperor-didnt-feature-in-his-plans-for-star-wars-episode-ix/So... No they weren't either, I mean I think you are reffering to Hux being a traitor? That was the clear impression I got in TLJ given the dirty looks he was shooting Kylo...HELL he almost killed Kylo in TLJ. He hated the man and that antagonism was set up in TFA. As far as Poe you only assume he is a different character if you ignore the events of TLJ and assume he didn't have enough time to sort of get used to his new role and responsibilities. Finn meanwhile had no real character arc in Rise, is was in TLJ and he really didn't have any growing to do...think of that what you will. You mean how Maz found it in the first place? Yes the 'story for another time' is an annoying piece of bad writing, but it really doesen't matter at the end of the day. She had it, gave it to Rey, interesting things were done with it. It is a fairly interesting thought about the lightsabers and a good point, especially just how not caring Luke became about...everything...however he wasn't actually using the thing and had no need to do so so...not a big issue. Another fairly interesting point actually and one that may actually change things. However Hyperdrive is never really consistent in Star Wars...and we are never given good information on the time and distances involved to know if he would've made it in time. Besides had he continued to live it wouldn't have served one of the things he was trying to do in the first place...so had the X-Wing worked or not it wouldn't really have changed things and both plot points are still fairly awesome. Snoke and Palpatine really didn't have contradictory plans for Rey. This is Palpatine we are talking about he never cared about HER just wanted to turn her to the darkside so she could become Empress. But Kylo would've served his purposes just as well and had Kylo killed her in Snoke's throne room there would've been nothing to stop his full descent to the darkside. And this is always what he has been doing throughout the trilogy and the various expanded universes, pitting one person against another and the victor serves him. Anakin and Dooku, Vader and Luke, Rey and Kylo....either one of them would've served his purposes well. And so? Palpetine not being in the original script does not have much bearing on the current movie and Trevorrow seems to think Abrams did good things with it, I do too, so moving on. Hux was turned into a buffoonish oaf not fit for command, and Poe was transformed from Iceman (Top Gun) into a manchild (Star Lord) despite their previous characterizations in TFA not being depicted in such a manner, and Hux being turned into spy by JJ in order to salvage the character doesn't absolve Kathleen Kennedy of her inability to make sure that the characters' personas remained consistent. Then there's the opposite problem for Finn whose character remains in limbo but with the added bonus of Johnson's self insert waifu tagging along. Why Kennedy didn't pick up on any of this despite it being her job to maintain consistency is an issue. Luke keeping Leia's lightsaber while being a disgruntled failed jedi requires an explanation that JJ didn't give, and the hyperdrive for an X-Wing fighter is only a class (Class 1) behind the Millennium Falcon (0.5) which is the fastest known ship in Disney lore. Hyperdrives classes denote how much faster than the speed of light a ship travels, with a Class 4 engine being the slowest. This makes Luke's last second resort use of the hologram trick baffling, and fundamentally changes the reasoning Johnson laid out for Luke's inability to confront Kylo in person. Now you have contradictory character behavior and motives because Kathleen Kennedy didn't do her job. Snoke trying to kill Rey and falsely believing that Kylo would do so too during the torture sequence shits on Palpatine's plans, and when you also consider Palpatine's firsthand experience with the unpredictability of Skywalkers ensuring Rey's safety should have been a priority. How much autonomy Snoke has for a puppet is not given to viewer but the danger Rey a vessel with more potential than Kylo was placed in by Palpatine makes no sense, beyond "dude lmao evuhl". What makes Trevorrow's statement so damning is that Kathleen Kennedy claimed to the contrary that them bringing back Palpatine from the start was the plan yet she hired a director, and didn't tell him that was part of the alleged plan? This is the same person who claimed that unlike Feige with Marvel, Lucasfilm didn't have source material to work from despite the existence of the EU, like The Dark Empire. This is the person who's suppoosed to establish, and oversee the framework for the Sequel Trilogy's narrative and is why a standalone film like Rogue One is outperforming the final film of the sequel trilogy.
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Iakus
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Post by Iakus on Jan 21, 2020 13:06:59 GMT
So...why did Luke’s old lightsaber call out to Rey Palpatine?
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Post by saandrig on Jan 21, 2020 15:16:43 GMT
Luke keeping Leia's lightsaber while being a disgruntled failed jedi requires an explanation that JJ didn't give, and the hyperdrive for an X-Wing fighter is only a class (Class 1) behind the Millennium Falcon (0.5) which is the fastest known ship in Disney lore. Hyperdrives classes denote how much faster than the speed of light a ship travels, with a Class 4 engine being the slowest. This makes Luke's last second resort use of the hologram trick baffling, and fundamentally changes the reasoning Johnson laid out for Luke's inability to confront Kylo in person. Now you have contradictory character behavior and motives because Kathleen Kennedy didn't do her job. Luke comes in person instead as a hologram on Crait. Luke gets blasted to red dust from the AT-M6 walkers. The End.
Even if he survives/avoids the walkers, he would have faced Kylo and either die or kill him in a duel. None of which he wanted to happen (and if he kills Kylo, Hux would have been on the walker trigger button, ready to blast him once and for all. I am a bit surprised he didn't order it while Kylo was out there, dueling his shadow). It's just so much better for the Skywalker legend to have Luke face the whole army and then say "See ya later, suckers". Only a hologram could do it (the Doctor of Star Trek Voyager would have been proud).
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Post by Iakus on Jan 21, 2020 15:42:45 GMT
Luke keeping Leia's lightsaber while being a disgruntled failed jedi requires an explanation that JJ didn't give, and the hyperdrive for an X-Wing fighter is only a class (Class 1) behind the Millennium Falcon (0.5) which is the fastest known ship in Disney lore. Hyperdrives classes denote how much faster than the speed of light a ship travels, with a Class 4 engine being the slowest. This makes Luke's last second resort use of the hologram trick baffling, and fundamentally changes the reasoning Johnson laid out for Luke's inability to confront Kylo in person. Now you have contradictory character behavior and motives because Kathleen Kennedy didn't do her job. Luke comes in person instead as a hologram on Crait. Luke gets blasted to red dust from the AT-M6 walkers. The End.
Even if he survives/avoids the walkers, he would have faced Kylo and either die or kill him in a duel. None of which he wanted to happen (and if he kills Kylo, Hux would have been on the walker trigger button, ready to blast him once and for all. I am a bit surprised he didn't order it while Kylo was out there, dueling his shadow). It's just so much better for the Skywalker legend to have Luke face the whole army and then say "See ya later, suckers". Only a hologram could do it (the Doctor of Star Trek Voyager would have been proud).
You know what would have been even better? Luke trains Rey as his apprentice. Then they work together to rescue Leia and the Rebel Alliance Resistance form the Empire First Order. Rey sneaks in the back while Luke distracts them from the front. He tries to talk Ben, but in the end, after making it clear he could have killed Ben at any time during their confrontation, allows Kylo to strike him down because he is unwilling to kill his nephew and knows deep down he can still be redeemed. Rey, meanwhile uses her strong and now trained albeit untested Jedi abilities to evade pursuit and get everyone to safety. Guided in part by her now "more powerful that you can possibly imagine" Force Ghost mentor.
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Post by Hier0phant on Jan 21, 2020 15:55:23 GMT
Luke keeping Leia's lightsaber while being a disgruntled failed jedi requires an explanation that JJ didn't give, and the hyperdrive for an X-Wing fighter is only a class (Class 1) behind the Millennium Falcon (0.5) which is the fastest known ship in Disney lore. Hyperdrives classes denote how much faster than the speed of light a ship travels, with a Class 4 engine being the slowest. This makes Luke's last second resort use of the hologram trick baffling, and fundamentally changes the reasoning Johnson laid out for Luke's inability to confront Kylo in person. Now you have contradictory character behavior and motives because Kathleen Kennedy didn't do her job. Luke comes in person instead as a hologram on Crait. Luke gets blasted to red dust from the AT-M6 walkers. The End.
Even if he survives/avoids the walkers, he would have faced Kylo and either die or kill him in a duel. None of which he wanted to happen (and if he kills Kylo, Hux would have been on the walker trigger button, ready to blast him once and for all. I am a bit surprised he didn't order it while Kylo was out there, dueling his shadow). It's just so much better for the Skywalker legend to have Luke face the whole army and then say "See ya later, suckers". Only a hologram could do it (the Doctor of Star Trek Voyager would have been proud).
Luke was the one who pulled that Star Destroyer down on Jakku so i doubt the ATs would be that much of an issue to him, and based on the Disney's new tie-in material he was a beast. It's not about Luke beating Kylo while him caring about maintaining his public image or legacy over the safety of his sister, and friends is very out of character. Luke not appearing in person even though he has a functional ship with hyperdrive raises too many questions about the character's rationale, and has no logical in universe explanation when you consider the gravity of the situation. With this bit of info that JJ tacked on Luke had no reason, beyond it being a retcon, to not follow the Falcon to Snoke's fleet.
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Post by saandrig on Jan 21, 2020 15:58:16 GMT
Luke comes in person instead as a hologram on Crait. Luke gets blasted to red dust from the AT-M6 walkers. The End.
Even if he survives/avoids the walkers, he would have faced Kylo and either die or kill him in a duel. None of which he wanted to happen (and if he kills Kylo, Hux would have been on the walker trigger button, ready to blast him once and for all. I am a bit surprised he didn't order it while Kylo was out there, dueling his shadow). It's just so much better for the Skywalker legend to have Luke face the whole army and then say "See ya later, suckers". Only a hologram could do it (the Doctor of Star Trek Voyager would have been proud).
You know what would have been even better? Luke trains Rey as his apprentice. Then they work together to rescue Leia and the Rebel Alliance Resistance form the Empire First Order. Rey sneaks in the back while Luke distracts them from the front. He tries to talk Ben, but in the end, after making it clear he could have killed Ben at any time during their confrontation, allows Kylo to strike him down because he is unwilling to kill his nephew and knows deep down he can still be redeemed. Rey, meanwhile uses her strong and now trained albeit untested Jedi abilities to evade pursuit and get everyone to safety. Guided in part by her now "more powerful that you can possibly imagine" Force Ghost mentor. Way too predictable, way too cliche. It's as safe as possible and apparently "more of the same" that so many SW fans want. Even when they screamed "TFA is the same old SW plot that we know." In short - not better in any way, unless you like it stale as ever
PS. - But you are right, it would have worked. The hardcore zealot bunch that thrashes TLJ would have gobbled it and ask for moar
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Post by Hier0phant on Jan 21, 2020 16:10:09 GMT
<A> Confront your homicidal nephew in person alongside a powerful new ally before there's any more casualties.<B> Wait until the last minute to project a hologram in order to distract said nephew as the death toll rises.<C> Party with Twi'lek bitches on Coruscant.<D> Drink more green milk.
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Post by saandrig on Jan 21, 2020 16:15:16 GMT
Luke was the one who pulled that Star Destroyer down on Jakku so i doubt the ATs would be that much of an issue to him, and based on the Disney's new tie-in material he was a beast. It's not about Luke beating Kylo while him caring about maintaining his public image or legacy over the safety of his sister, and friends is very out of character. Luke not appearing in person even though he has a functional ship with hyperdrive raises too many questions about the character's rationale, and has no logical in universe explanation when you consider the gravity of the situation. With this bit of info that JJ tacked on Luke had no reason, beyond it being a retcon, to not follow the Falcon to Snoke's fleet. Luke coming in person wouldn't have work at all. The hologram surprise was in line with the whole TLJ. A Luke in person would have needed an entirely different movie style from the start.
Even if you quote tie-in and other external material, 95+% of the people who saw the movie never knew or cared about that stuff. Luke was seen as a cranky hermit and suddenly pulling feats like you describe would have been silly. Half the movie should have been made to portray him as a messiah on steroids otherwise. A hologram that required all his strength sounds just about right. And cool. Cooler actually than the other option imho, especially if you noticed the subtle and not so subtle stuff that gave up that it's not actually Luke in person.
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Post by Hier0phant on Jan 21, 2020 16:51:55 GMT
Luke was the one who pulled that Star Destroyer down on Jakku so i doubt the ATs would be that much of an issue to him, and based on the Disney's new tie-in material he was a beast. It's not about Luke beating Kylo while him caring about maintaining his public image or legacy over the safety of his sister, and friends is very out of character. Luke not appearing in person even though he has a functional ship with hyperdrive raises too many questions about the character's rationale, and has no logical in universe explanation when you consider the gravity of the situation. With this bit of info that JJ tacked on Luke had no reason, beyond it being a retcon, to not follow the Falcon to Snoke's fleet. Luke coming in person wouldn't have work at all. The hologram surprise was in line with the whole TLJ. A Luke in person would have needed an entirely different movie style from the start.
Even if you quote tie-in and other external material, 95+% of the people who saw the movie never knew or cared about that stuff. Luke was seen as a cranky hermit and suddenly pulling feats like you describe would have been silly. Half the movie should have been made to portray him as a messiah on steroids otherwise. A hologram that required all his strength sounds just about right. And cool. Cooler actually than the other option imho, especially if you noticed the subtle and not so subtle stuff that gave up that it's not actually Luke in person.
That is all meta reasoning and alien to the in universe explanation behind Luke not leaving Ahch-To on his X-Wing in order to save his friends. Before JJ retconned Luke's situation his force projection was a last resort move that he needed to rely on due to Rian implying that his X-Wing was out of service. Some of it's parts served as a makeshift door to Luke's hut. Luke succeeding or failing in defeating Kylo, him being a force god ubermensch or any other 4th wall reasoning isn't the issue, it's this simple lack of attention to detail that calls into question JJ's and Kathleen Kennedy's PR claims about the Sequel Trilogy's general framework being pre planned or the level of communication between LucasFilm's staff as evidenced by Trevorrow's ignorance of Palpatine's return until JJ was rehired at the last minute. The Sequel Trilogy is discombobulated and LucasFilm's claims to the contrary only stinks of PR speak because of the existence of conflicting interviews with it's staff that contradicts their new narrative. www.digitalspy.com/movies/a846062/why-luke-skywalker-destroyed-x-wing-in-star-wars-the-last-jedi/
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Post by Iakus on Jan 21, 2020 17:10:59 GMT
Luke was the one who pulled that Star Destroyer down on Jakku so i doubt the ATs would be that much of an issue to him, and based on the Disney's new tie-in material he was a beast. It's not about Luke beating Kylo while him caring about maintaining his public image or legacy over the safety of his sister, and friends is very out of character. Luke not appearing in person even though he has a functional ship with hyperdrive raises too many questions about the character's rationale, and has no logical in universe explanation when you consider the gravity of the situation. With this bit of info that JJ tacked on Luke had no reason, beyond it being a retcon, to not follow the Falcon to Snoke's fleet. Luke coming in person wouldn't have work at all. The hologram surprise was in line with the whole TLJ. A Luke in person would have needed an entirely different movie style from the start.
Even if you quote tie-in and other external material, 95+% of the people who saw the movie never knew or cared about that stuff. Luke was seen as a cranky hermit and suddenly pulling feats like you describe would have been silly. Half the movie should have been made to portray him as a messiah on steroids otherwise. A hologram that required all his strength sounds just about right. And cool. Cooler actually than the other option imho, especially if you noticed the subtle and not so subtle stuff that gave up that it's not actually Luke in person.
Hey, if it were up to me I'd nuke The Last Dumpster Fire from orbit and start over completely. But assuming we can't, and that scene HAD to play out, at least mine has the advantage of being consistent with Luke's character.
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Post by Iakus on Jan 21, 2020 17:12:21 GMT
Luke was the one who pulled that Star Destroyer down on Jakku so i doubt the ATs would be that much of an issue to him, and based on the Disney's new tie-in material he was a beast. It's not about Luke beating Kylo while him caring about maintaining his public image or legacy over the safety of his sister, and friends is very out of character. Luke not appearing in person even though he has a functional ship with hyperdrive raises too many questions about the character's rationale, and has no logical in universe explanation when you consider the gravity of the situation. With this bit of info that JJ tacked on Luke had no reason, beyond it being a retcon, to not follow the Falcon to Snoke's fleet. Luke coming in person wouldn't have work at all. The hologram surprise was in line with the whole TLJ. A Luke in person would have needed an entirely different movie style from the start.
Even if you quote tie-in and other external material, 95+% of the people who saw the movie never knew or cared about that stuff. Luke was seen as a cranky hermit and suddenly pulling feats like you describe would have been silly. Half the movie should have been made to portray him as a messiah on steroids otherwise. A hologram that required all his strength sounds just about right. And cool. Cooler actually than the other option imho, especially if you noticed the subtle and not so subtle stuff that gave up that it's not actually Luke in person.
And there was the first mistake.
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Post by skekSil on Jan 21, 2020 19:04:55 GMT
It occured to me recently that if someone where to whatch SW for the first time but in a chronological order (ep I - IX) instead of the usual one they would see dashing and joke cracking Ewan McGregor turn into a crazy old hermit Alec Guinness who lets himself killed for no reason at the end of the first episode of new sequel and vanishes into thin air, something never before seen in series.
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Post by Iakus on Jan 21, 2020 19:15:32 GMT
It occured to me recently that if someone where to whatch SW for the first time but in a chronological order (ep I - IX) instead of the usual one they would see dashing and joke cracking Ewan McGregor turn into a crazy old hermit Alec Guinness who lets himself killed for no reason at the end of the first episode of new sequel and vanishes into thin air, something never before seen in series. But you would know WHY he became a "crazy old hermit" There isn't exactly a "no reason" given he was surrounded by storm troopers and Vader was relentlessly attacking him. And while we never saw a body vanish, we DO know that there was a Jedi technique for achieving "immortality" through the Force, that Qui-Gon had learned it, passed it on to Yoda, who in turn passed it on to Obi-Won.
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Post by colfoley on Jan 21, 2020 19:59:30 GMT
So... No they weren't either, I mean I think you are reffering to Hux being a traitor? That was the clear impression I got in TLJ given the dirty looks he was shooting Kylo...HELL he almost killed Kylo in TLJ. He hated the man and that antagonism was set up in TFA. As far as Poe you only assume he is a different character if you ignore the events of TLJ and assume he didn't have enough time to sort of get used to his new role and responsibilities. Finn meanwhile had no real character arc in Rise, is was in TLJ and he really didn't have any growing to do...think of that what you will. You mean how Maz found it in the first place? Yes the 'story for another time' is an annoying piece of bad writing, but it really doesen't matter at the end of the day. She had it, gave it to Rey, interesting things were done with it. It is a fairly interesting thought about the lightsabers and a good point, especially just how not caring Luke became about...everything...however he wasn't actually using the thing and had no need to do so so...not a big issue. Another fairly interesting point actually and one that may actually change things. However Hyperdrive is never really consistent in Star Wars...and we are never given good information on the time and distances involved to know if he would've made it in time. Besides had he continued to live it wouldn't have served one of the things he was trying to do in the first place...so had the X-Wing worked or not it wouldn't really have changed things and both plot points are still fairly awesome. Snoke and Palpatine really didn't have contradictory plans for Rey. This is Palpatine we are talking about he never cared about HER just wanted to turn her to the darkside so she could become Empress. But Kylo would've served his purposes just as well and had Kylo killed her in Snoke's throne room there would've been nothing to stop his full descent to the darkside. And this is always what he has been doing throughout the trilogy and the various expanded universes, pitting one person against another and the victor serves him. Anakin and Dooku, Vader and Luke, Rey and Kylo....either one of them would've served his purposes well. And so? Palpetine not being in the original script does not have much bearing on the current movie and Trevorrow seems to think Abrams did good things with it, I do too, so moving on. Hux was turned into a buffoonish oaf not fit for command, and Poe was transformed from Iceman (Top Gun) into a manchild (Star Lord) despite their previous characterizations in TFA not being depicted in such a manner, and Hux being turned into spy by JJ in order to salvage the character doesn't absolve Kathleen Kennedy of her inability to make sure that the characters' personas remained consistent. Then there's the opposite problem for Finn whose character remains in limbo but with the added bonus of Johnson's self insert waifu tagging along. Why Kennedy didn't pick up on any of this despite it being her job to maintain consistency is an issue. Luke keeping Leia's lightsaber while being a disgruntled failed jedi requires an explanation that JJ didn't give, and the hyperdrive for an X-Wing fighter is only a class (Class 1) behind the Millennium Falcon (0.5) which is the fastest known ship in Disney lore. Hyperdrives classes denote how much faster than the speed of light a ship travels, with a Class 4 engine being the slowest. This makes Luke's last second resort use of the hologram trick baffling, and fundamentally changes the reasoning Johnson laid out for Luke's inability to confront Kylo in person. Now you have contradictory character behavior and motives because Kathleen Kennedy didn't do her job. Snoke trying to kill Rey and falsely believing that Kylo would do so too during the torture sequence shits on Palpatine's plans, and when you also consider Palpatine's firsthand experience with the unpredictability of Skywalkers ensuring Rey's safety should have been a priority. How much autonomy Snoke has for a puppet is not given to viewer but the danger Rey a vessel with more potential than Kylo was placed in by Palpatine makes no sense, beyond "dude lmao evuhl". What makes Trevorrow's statement so damning is that Kathleen Kennedy claimed to the contrary that them bringing back Palpatine from the start was the plan yet she hired a director, and didn't tell him that was part of the alleged plan? This is the same person who claimed that unlike Feige with Marvel, Lucasfilm didn't have source material to work from despite the existence of the EU, like The Dark Empire. This is the person who's suppoosed to establish, and oversee the framework for the Sequel Trilogy's narrative and is why a standalone film like Rogue One is outperforming the final film of the sequel trilogy. Poe's and Finn's characterizations largely staid consistent throughout the three movies. Poe in his very first scene of the movie is mocking KYLO REN TO HIS FACE for crying out loud. He's the Cameron Mitchell of the piece...hell maybe Jack would be more accurate. Yes Hux was turned into comic relief and while it may do the actor a disservice but it also helped prove the point of Johnson that normies are kinda caught in the middle of this cycle of war. Same reason that Rey was kinda an unintentional dick to the nuns on Ach To. Made perfect sense to me. Maybe that's the reason he was fired? For not going along with the plan? Sorry I have the exact opposite read from you there, we know he was fired for a reason, likely not going along with the plan. Now we have evidence. So...why did Luke’s old lightsaber call out to Rey Palpatine? Because she was the only one who could get it to a Skywalker...ultimately Ben? Maybe the Skywalker and Palpatine Bloodlines are intimately connected with one another? I think there has been too much made about this calling thing. The Jedi texts and the Sith dagger called to her, and over in Rebels Kanan's lightsaber and holocron called to Ezra...seems like a bit of a will of the Force situation. Luke comes in person instead as a hologram on Crait. Luke gets blasted to red dust from the AT-M6 walkers. The End.
Even if he survives/avoids the walkers, he would have faced Kylo and either die or kill him in a duel. None of which he wanted to happen (and if he kills Kylo, Hux would have been on the walker trigger button, ready to blast him once and for all. I am a bit surprised he didn't order it while Kylo was out there, dueling his shadow). It's just so much better for the Skywalker legend to have Luke face the whole army and then say "See ya later, suckers". Only a hologram could do it (the Doctor of Star Trek Voyager would have been proud).
You know what would have been even better? Luke trains Rey as his apprentice. Then they work together to rescue Leia and the Rebel Alliance Resistance form the Empire First Order. Rey sneaks in the back while Luke distracts them from the front. He tries to talk Ben, but in the end, after making it clear he could have killed Ben at any time during their confrontation, allows Kylo to strike him down because he is unwilling to kill his nephew and knows deep down he can still be redeemed. Rey, meanwhile uses her strong and now trained albeit untested Jedi abilities to evade pursuit and get everyone to safety. Guided in part by her now "more powerful that you can possibly imagine" Force Ghost mentor. Luke did train Rey, at least in the version I watched. Granted not in the physical ways we've already seen for two movies but the moral and philosophical lessons her character ultimately needed.
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Post by skekSil on Jan 21, 2020 20:08:50 GMT
But you would know WHY he became a "crazy old hermit" We know why Luke become "cranky old hermit" too, so what? There isn't exactly a "no reason" given he was surrounded by storm troopers and Vader was relentlessly attacking him. He could have used Force speed to run away from Vader like he tun away from droidekas in ep I. we DO know that there was a Jedi technique for achieving "immortality" through the Force, that Qui-Gon had learned it, passed it on to Yoda, who in turn passed it on to Obi-Won. Never heard of it till I saw this thread. Where in movies do they explain that?
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Post by colfoley on Jan 21, 2020 20:15:35 GMT
But you would know WHY he became a "crazy old hermit" We know why Luke become "cranky old hermit" too, so what? There isn't exactly a "no reason" given he was surrounded by storm troopers and Vader was relentlessly attacking him. He could have used Force speed to run away from Vader like he tun away from droidekas in ep I. we DO know that there was a Jedi technique for achieving "immortality" through the Force, that Qui-Gon had learned it, passed it on to Yoda, who in turn passed it on to Obi-Won. Never heard of it till I saw this thread. Where in movies do they explain that? Episode 3.
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